【英文原声版81】Camille Robcis: Discipline and Punish

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Zachary Davis: We moderns often tell ourselves a story that goes something like this. The past was barbaric, especially when it came to punishing criminals or persecuting minorities. Here’s just a smattering of what used to be considered legal and appropriate forms of justice: hanging, chopping off a head, burning at the stake, quartering, stoning, drowning, and my personal nightmare, crushing. Very often these punishments were carried out in public, so that everyone could learn the desired lesson.

扎卡里·戴维斯：我们现代人常说以前的人很野蛮，尤其是在惩罚犯人和迫害少数群体这方面。我们似乎随便就可以举几个过去人认为很合情合法的惩戒手段：绞刑、斩首、火刑、分尸、石刑、溺刑，以及我个人最害怕的——被活活压死。这些刑罚通常都是在大庭广众下执行的，以确保对所有人都能起到警示震慑的作用。

Zachary Davis: But eventually, we tell ourselves, we learned to be more humane. We don’t do any of that brutal torture and execution anymore. We mainly just put people in jails and try to help them rehabilitate and rejoin society one day. We overcame our cruel and barbaric instincts to be enlightened and compassionate.

扎卡里·戴维斯：但后来，我们良心发现，开始变得更加人道。我们不再动用那种残忍的酷刑了。我们现在通常只是把人关在监狱里，尽量让他们改正自己，好让他们重返社会。我们克服了自己野蛮残忍的本能，变得更加开明且富有同情心。

Zachary Davis: But the 20th century French philosopher Michel Foucault didn’t believe this story modern people told themselves. He didn’t accept that modern punishment was any more humane than it used to be. And he used history to make his point. 

扎卡里·戴维斯：但20世纪的法国哲学家米歇尔·福柯并不相信现代人给自己的这一套说法。他并不认为现代的惩戒方式要比过去更加人道。他引用了不少历史材料来证明了这一点。

Camille Robcis: I think Foucault’s way of arguing is just really dazzling. And the way that he takes apart any certainties instead of beginning with the kind of conventional wisdom like the prison exists because it's necessary, he he basically forces you to rethink the very terms around which debates are organized around, for example, imprisonment. So I think in general, you know, it's the kind of the fact that he never takes anything for granted. Nothing is self-evident. Everything is up for discussion. 

卡米尔·罗伯西：我认为福柯论证的方式实在是令人惊叹。而且相较于一上来就谈一些世俗认知，比如监狱存在就是因为它必不可少，福柯直接摒弃既有的东西，然后强迫你重新思考这些概念和围绕它的相关争论，比如说监禁这个概念本身。所以我认为总体来讲，福柯从来不认为任何事物是理所当然的。没有什么是显而易见的。任何事物都值得反复讨论。

Camille Robcis: My name is Camille Robcis. I'm a professor of history in French at Columbia University, and my specialty is European intellectual history. 

卡米尔·罗伯西：我的名字是卡米尔·罗伯西。我是哥伦比亚大学的法国历史教授，主攻欧陆思想史。

Zachary Davis: For Foucault, power, discipline, and social norms are all entwined.

扎卡里·戴维斯：对福柯来说，权力、规训和社会规范彼此都是密切相关联的。

Camille Robcis: Basically, discipline produces a particular norm. It's the result of a discipline and power has a normalizing effect. Right. So I think this is very, very important also to kind of trace those dots between that we live in a normalizing society, And so that this is the point of discipline, if anything, is to produce these norms constantly. 

卡米尔·罗伯西：根本上来讲，规训会产生一个特定的规范。它是一个规训的结果，而权力有一种规范化的效果。我们生活在一个规范化的社会，所以去回溯彼此之间这些点非常重要，因为规训的目的就是要不断产生这些规范。

Zachary Davis: In his 1975 text Discipline and Punish, Foucault argues that the modern prison system isn’t a result of reformist efforts to create a more humane form of punishment. Instead, it's better to think of it as an evolution of punishment, an even more effective technology for those in authority to exert power.

扎卡里·戴维斯：在他1975年的《规训与惩罚》中，福柯认为现代监狱系统并不是改良主义者们为了创造一种更人道的惩戒方法而努力的结果。相反，更恰当地说，它应该被理解为惩罚手段的一次进化，是能让权力机构更加有效地施加权力的一种技术。

Camille Robcis: And that's the big question of the book in many ways, right, is it why is it that the prison remains as a form of as the as the primary form of punishment, despite the fact that it's been so criticized? And certainly a question, you know, in our culture today, everybody talks about reforming the prison. But if you think about it, historically, the minute the prison was invented already people were calling for its abolition, and yet it persists as the primary form of punishment, modern form of punishment.

卡米尔·罗伯西：而从很多方面来看，这也是本书最主要的一个问题。为什么尽管监狱受了这么多批评，还依然是最主要的惩戒手段？而且你要知道它确实是个问题，在我们今天的文化里，人人都在讨论监狱应该改革。但是，监狱依然是当下最主要的惩戒手段。

Zachary Davis: Welcome to Writ Large, a podcast about how books change the world. I’m Zachary Davis. In each episode, I talk with one of the world’s leading scholars about one book that changed the course of history. For this episode, I sat down with Professor Camille Robcis to discuss Michel Foucault’s Discipline and Punish.

扎卡里·戴维斯：欢迎收听：改变你和世界的100本书，在这里我们为大家讲述改变世界的书籍。我是扎卡里·戴维斯。每一集，我都会和一位世界顶尖学者讨论一本影响历史进程的书。在本集，我和卡米尔·罗伯西教授一起讨论米歇尔·福柯的《规训与惩罚》。

Camille Robcis: So Foucault was born in 1926 in a town of France called Poitiers in a family of doctors. 

卡米尔·罗伯西：福柯出生于1926年，来自法国普瓦捷小镇的一个医生家庭。

Zachary Davis: Foucault descended from a long line of surgeons. Despite his father’s wishes to carry on the family tradition, Foucault just wasn’t drawn to medicine. As a son of a physician, Michel, buddy, I can relate.

扎卡里·戴维斯：福柯的祖辈都是外科医生。尽管他的父亲想让他继承家族传统，福柯却对医学不感兴趣。我本人也是医生的儿子，这一点我也感同身受。

Camille Robcis: He started out very interested in kind of psychology, psychiatry, all the psychic disciplines. 

卡米尔·罗伯西：他一开始对心理学，精神病学，和所有与心理相关的科目都很感兴趣。

Camille Robcis: He went to The École Normale Supérieure, which is the school that trained teachers originally and a lot of professors. But he was there with a kind of a whole other batch of glorious French intellectuals, had very important teachers, including someone like Jean Hyppolite.

卡米尔·罗伯西：他上了巴黎高等师范学校，那儿一开始是培养教师的，但也出了很多教授。福柯在那里碰到了不少出色的法国知识分子，结交了很多重要的老师，包括让·伊波利特。

Camille Robcis: According to his biographers, he had a very kind of depressive youth. And, you know, there's apparently even a suicide attempt at some point while he was a student. 

卡米尔·罗伯西：根据传记作家记载，他在青年时代饱受抑郁症折磨。而且，在学生时代的某个时候，他甚至尝试过自杀。

Zachary Davis: While Foucault was a student in his early twenties, he decorated his bedroom with paintings of war and torture. He was inclined to self-mutilation and even attempted suicide. His father sent him to a psychiatrist in Paris who diagnosed that a lot of Foucault’s distress came from the fact that he had to hide his homosexuality.

扎卡里·戴维斯：在福柯二十岁出头，还是个学生的时候，他的卧室里挂满了描绘战争和酷刑的绘画。他那时有自残甚至尝试自杀的倾向。他的父亲带他去看了一位巴黎的精神病学家，医生诊断出福柯的压力主要是因为他必须要隐藏他的同性恋身份。

Zachary Davis: During his time as a student in Paris, Foucault gradually became more comfortable with his sexuality and he became involved in the underground Parisian gay scene. 

扎卡里·戴维斯：在巴黎的学生时代，福柯渐渐接受了自己的性取向，并和巴黎地下的同性恋圈子来往颇多。

Camille Robcis: Then he eventually, after getting his degree in psychology, he went to Sweden for a little while and was at the University of Uppsala. And that's where he started to also kind of take the work on The History of Madness and use the library, which is apparently amazing in Sweden, to kind of fill out the empirical details. 

卡米尔·罗伯西：在获得心理学学位之后，福柯到瑞典的乌普萨拉大学待了一段时间。在那里他开始着手写作《疯癫与文明》，并利用图书馆丰富的馆藏来补充实践经验方面的细节。

Zachary Davis: The History of Madness was Foucault’s PhD thesis, completed in 1960. In it, Foucault argued that madness is a social construct, distinct from mental illness. He looked back at the historical evolution of madness to disprove the idea that contemporary Western society treats people with mental illness in a much more humane way today than they did in the past. He traced the evolution of the concept of madness through the Renaissance, the 17th and 18th centuries, and into the modern age. 

扎卡里·戴维斯：《疯癫与文明》是福柯的博士论文，并于1960年完成。在书中，福柯指出疯癫是一种社会建构，而非精神疾病。他通过回溯疯癫在历史中的演变来论证当代西方社会并没有用一种比以往更人道的方法对待精神病人。他回溯了疯癫这个概念在历史上的演变，从文艺复兴时期到17、18世纪，再一直到现代。

Zachary Davis: This historical examination laid the foundation for how Foucault structured his later arguments. In his subsequent works, he took a similar historical approach to see how we arrived at the present we live in and to question the nearly universal belief that our modern societies are better, more enlightened than those of the past.

扎卡里·戴维斯：这种对历史的重新审视为福柯之后的论证提供了基础。在他之后的作品里，福柯都采用了相似的历史手法来检视我们如何演变到了今天所处的社会，并质疑现代社会是不是真的像所有人想的那样，比过去更好、更开明。

Zachary Davis: After completing his thesis, Foucault took a teaching position at the University of Clermont-Ferrand.

扎卡里·戴维斯：在完成论文后，福柯到了克莱蒙费朗大学担任教职工作。

Camille Robcis: His first positions in university are as a psychology professor. So he's very interested in this question of psychic causality, like what is it that we do the things we do? 

卡米尔·罗伯西：他在大学的第一份职务是心理学教授。所以他的确对精神上的种种因果问题很感兴趣，像是我们为什么会做出这样或那样的行为？

Zachary Davis: Psychology was a very popular subject at the time. Freud’s psychoanalytic theories and practices had helped advance the field of psychology by leaps and bounds. The goal of psychoanalysis is to treat mental health disorders by looking at the interaction of the conscious and unconscious mind. Foucault read Freud’s work while he was a student and was quite influenced by his ideas.

扎卡里·戴维斯：心理学在当时是个很火热的科目。弗洛伊德的精神分析理论和疗法在当时已经极大地推动了心理学的发展。精神分析法的目的是通过分析人脑中有意识和无意识之间的互动来治疗精神失调。福柯在学生时代就阅读了弗洛伊德的著作，并受到了不少启发。

Camille Robcis: Freud is a figure that he wrestles with throughout his life. And he's both fascinated with psychoanalysis. He engages it, obviously, in the History of Madness. But also later. I mean, it's someone he always returns to. 

卡米尔·罗伯西：他一生中都和弗洛伊德纠缠不清。一方面他十分关注精神分析法。福柯在《疯癫与文明》中显然批判了他的理论。但之后，他又总是会返回到弗洛伊德那里。

Camille Robcis: And the figures that Freud talks about, the kind of sexualized child, the hysteric are figures that always return in Foucault’s work. But he, you know, he takes a very different approach to Freud that he's much less interested in the kind of unconscious reality and much more interested in the effects that power and how power produces certain subjects.

卡米尔·罗伯西：而弗洛伊德谈论到的那些形象，性别化的儿童，身患癔病的人物形象总是出现在福柯的作品里。但你也要知道他采用了一种和弗洛伊德很不同的角度，他没有太多关注无意识的现实，而是更多的关注权力产生的影响以及权力如何塑造出特定的主体。

Zachary Davis: Foucault was particularly interested in how power shapes life—everything from individuals to language to society and to culture. When something is shaped by power, it is a subject of that power which means that everyone and everything is a subject of some form of power.

扎卡里·戴维斯：福柯对权力如何塑造生活很感兴趣，包括从个体到语言到社会还有文化等方方面面。当某样东西为权力所塑造，它就成了权力所创造的主体，也就是说任何人，任何事物都是某种权力所创造的主体。

Camille Robcis: And I think perhaps his most important concept is the concept of subjectification or assujettissement, in French writing, because its power oppresses you as subjects. Right. And it's oppressive, but at the same time it creates you as a subject. You cannot be a subject without power. And that's a very kind of specific feature of this theory, because it means that you can't, it's not like power is good or bad. Power exists and it creates you and you can't escape it because that would mean not being a subject. 

卡米尔·罗伯西：而我认为主体化过程可能是他最重要的概念。因为是权力把你作为一个被压迫的主体，而且压迫的同时也在创造你这个主体。你不可能在没有权力的情况下形成你的主体。而这也是他理论里很特别的一点，因为它意味着权力并不分好坏。权力就在那里，并且它创造了你，躲也躲不掉，否则你就不再是个主体了。

Zachary Davis: During his time as a professor at the University of Clermont-Ferrand, Foucault wrote two more books, The Birth of the Clinic, in which he argues against the idea that medicine has become more humane over time, and The Order of Things, where he looked at the concept of truth and knowledge through history.  

扎卡里·戴维斯：当他在克莱蒙费朗大学当教授的时候，福柯又写了两部书。在《临床医学的诞生》中，福柯反对了医学正在日益变得更加人道的观点，而在《词与物》中，他回顾了历史上真理与知识这一概念的演变。

Camille Robcis: So he travels for a while after this. He goes to Poland. He's kind of named. He works for the French government, the cultural attaché. So he moves around. He's in Germany, in Tunisia for a little while. 

卡米尔·罗伯西：之后他又旅行了一段时间。他去了波兰，那时他已经有点名气了。他是法国政府的文化专员。于是他到处旅行，在德国、突尼斯都待过一段时间。

Zachary Davis: Meanwhile, things in France were heating up. The younger generation was growing increasingly dissatisfied with the conservative government. In May of 1968, students at the Sorbonne University in Paris began protesting against capitalism, consumerism, and traditional institutions. As the protests grew larger, they also became violent. The police responded with tear gas and billy clubs. The protests eventually spread throughout the country and inspired many dissatisfied workers to join in. But the workers and the students didn’t necessarily have the same goals. 

扎卡里·戴维斯：与此同时，法国国内的局势日益升温。年轻人对保守政府愈发不满。1968年5月，巴黎索邦大学的学生发起了对资本主义，消费主义，和传统社会机构的抗议。随着抗议人群越来越多，情形也变得暴力起来。警察以催泪瓦斯和警棍回应。这些抗议最终席卷了全国，并鼓舞了不少对现状不满的工人，使他们也加入其中。但工人和学生们似乎并没有在追求的目标上达成太多一致的共识。

Camille Robcis: The students wanted things like, you know, bring imagination to the streets or, you know, demand the impossible, et cetera, et cetera. And when the workers eventually joined the movement, but they wanted was better job conditions, you know, higher higher wages, better conditions, benefits. 

卡米尔·罗伯西：学生们的诉求更像是把想象力带到街头，或者，要求把不可能变成可能。而当工人后来加入到运动中以后，他们要求的则是更好的工作待遇，更高的工资，更好的工作条件和福利等等。

Zachary Davis: This uprising in France became known as May 68. In the end, both the students and the workers achieved many of their goals. The government increased the minimum wage and established the 40-hour work week. 

扎卡里·戴维斯：这次在法国的运动后来被称作“五月风暴”。最后，学生和工人们实现了很多的诉求。政府提高了最低工资，并确立了每周40小时工作制。

Zachary Davis: The student protests, though, inspired a broader reexamination of French society. They opened the door to discussions on new areas of social liberation, including feminism, ecology, and gay rights. New, reformed universities were also founded in the aftermath of the May 68 protests.

扎卡里·戴维斯：学生抗议还引发了对法国社会的广泛反思。他们为讨论新的社会解放议题打开了大门，比如女权主义、生态环境、同性恋权益等。“五月风暴”之后还设立了许多新的经过改革的大学。

Camille Robcis: One of the students, you know, after May 68, wanted to have a kind of more and more involvement,in the university, in the management of the university, a greater degree of curricular flexibility, etc., and out of this came out this University of Vincennes.

卡米尔·罗伯西：其中一部分学生在“五月风暴”中要求能够更多的参与到大学里，能够参与到大学的管理中，能够有更多选课方面的自由等等。正是这些诉求催生了万森纳大学。

Zachary Davis: Later that year, Foucault moved from Tunis to Paris, where he got a teaching position at this new university. 

扎卡里·戴维斯：那一年晚些时候，福柯从突尼斯赶回了巴黎，并在这所新大学谋到了一份教职。

Camille Robcis: Foucault starts teaching there. And it's, again, the kind of place where all of the you know, the big names of what we call today, French theory are teaching. So someone like Gilles Deleuze is there, Robert Castel, someone like in sociology, someone like Châtelet in philosophy. So there's a kind of, you know, very activist group of professors. And as they are, you know, rethinking the pedagogy of teaching on a very practical level, they're also rethinking power relations in their own work. So this is certainly true for Deleuze. It's true for someone like Charlotte Basad, who is interested in pedagogy, so and it's true for Foucault. So the kind of rethinking of power is also linked to this experience of events and in many ways of teaching this way.

卡米尔·罗伯西：福柯开始在那里教书。那里再一次成为了众星云集的地方。有我们现在所知的法国学派的很多大名鼎鼎的人物，比如吉尔·德勒兹，罗伯特·卡斯特尔之类的人物，还有一些社会学家，还有哲学家夏特雷。所以当时那里聚集了一群很激进的学者。而且随着他们从实用层面反思他们的教学方法，他们也开始反思他们自己工作中的权力关系。这点对德勒兹来说尤其如此。对教育法十分感兴趣的夏洛特·巴萨德也是如此，对福柯更是如此。所以对权力的反思也在很多方面与这一系列事件和当时的教学密切相关。

Zachary Davis: Why were they thinking about power so much?

扎卡里·戴维斯：为什么他们投入了这么多精力来思考权力呢？

Camille Robcis: It's a lot of things, but certainly in May 68 in some ways highlighted the question of power because in some ways, this is a time of deep rethinking of Marxist theory. Right, because there's a kind of this idea that for many of the students who were involved in May 68 and many of these intellectuals who were involved in May 68, acquiring the means of production was not the necessary goal anymore. Because, you know, we had a series of examples of countries where the proletariat had acquired the means of production, the Soviet Union, China, you know, and it's not like those countries were less ideological.

卡米尔·罗伯西：这涉及很多事情，但“五月风暴”在某些方面确实凸显出了很多权力方面的问题，因为在很多方面，那是一个对马克思理论进行深度反思的时代。没错，因为对当时很多参与“五月风暴”的学生和知识分子而言，斗争的目标不一定是夺取生产手段。因为，当时在很多国家，无产阶级已经夺得了生产手段，比如苏联、中国，而且这些国家也很重视意识形态。

Camille Robcis: So then the question needed to become, you know, how do we think about reproduction? Why is it that workers demand? Why is it that workers want to be, demand their own subjection? Right. They want their own oppression and they are complicit with the system, the workers, the labor unions, et cetera, et cetera. 

卡米尔·罗伯西：所以问题就必须要变成，我们如何思考生殖？为什么工人们自己想要被压迫？他们想要被压迫，和体制妥协，工人，工会等等都是如此。

Zachary Davis: Many of the students and intellectuals involved in the May 68 protests were pushing against the power structures of society. They felt that the capitalist, heteronormative system they lived within was channeling their desires and identities in a narrow way.    

扎卡里·戴维斯：很多参与到“五月风暴”的学生和知识分子们都在反抗当时社会的权力结构。他们认为他们当时所处的以异性恋为常态的资本主义体制把他们的欲望和身份都限制住了。

Camille Robcis: And Foucault in some ways is also interested in this question through this through this problem of power and subjectification, right. You it's not that easy to say. No, it's not like so easy to say no to power. It's not so easy to say. The opposite of power is not liberation. Right. This is one very important thing for Foucault. You can never be liberated because power is what constitutes you. Right. 

卡米尔·罗伯西：而福柯在某些方面也对权力和主体化过程的问题很感兴趣。对权力说“不”并不是件容易的事。权力的对立面也并不是解放。这是福柯很重要的一个观点。你是没法被解放的因为是权力构成了你。

Zachary Davis: Foucault spent roughly a year at the University of Vincennes before becoming a fellow at the prestigious College de France.

扎卡里·戴维斯：福柯在万森纳大学待了差不多一年，就成为了大名鼎鼎的法兰西学院的一员。

Camille Robcis: So he gets elected. It's an elected post. And in 1970s and essentially, I mean, the College de France is amazing. It’s kind of the summon of academic glory in France. It's very hard because you have to produce new work and new lectures for a great public. So it's not just students, it's open to the general public. It's in a big kind of lecture hall. And you see him if you read the lectures Foucault is writing these extremely quickly. Right. And he has to every month he has to show up and say something new. And so he does you know, he basically stays at the college, of course, until he dies in 1984. And I forget how many there are. Fourteen, thirteen, I think lectures where he you know, you if you read them in parallel to his published work, it's very interesting to see him develop and perfect his ideas in these College de France lectures. 

卡米尔·罗伯西：他是被选举到这个职位上的。而在上个世纪七十年代，法兰西学院实在是很棒。那里聚集了法国学术界最顶尖的人物。这非常不容易，因为你要不停的产出新作品、新讲座给大众。它不止对学生开放，还对整个社会开放。那是一个很大的讲座厅。所以如果你读过福柯的讲座就能想象他当时得很快写出这些东西。而且每个月他都得出来讲一些新的东西。所以他基本上就一直呆在学院里，直到他于1984年去世。而且我忘了有多少篇，好像是十三、十四篇讲座，如果你把这和他同期出版的作品一块读就会觉得很有意思，因为你会发现他是怎样在这一系列讲座中发展并完善他的理论的。

Zachary Davis: Foucault gave lectures on topics he was researching for his books. He gave his first lecture in December of 1970, and it was called The Discourse of Language. These lectures were extremely popular and very well attended. Throughout his academic rise, power was still very much on Foucault’s mind. He began to examine the modern prison the same way he had with mental health and modern medicine. Around this time, Foucault co-founded an activist group called GIP .

扎卡里·戴维斯：福柯在讲座中谈到一些他在书中正在研究的课题。他1970年12月的第一个讲座叫做《论语言》。这些讲座非常热门，吸引了众多人前去旁听。随着他在学术界冉冉升起，权力依然是福柯最主要的一个研究主题。他开始像剖析精神健康和现代医学一样剖析现代监狱系统。在这一时期，福柯联合创立了一个名叫“监狱信息小组”的社会活动组织。

Camille Robcis: And that is a group that is founded in February of 1971 by some activists, some of these kind of students of May 68 that were very active in May 68, but also some intellectuals, including Foucault. And what they do is that it's a group to that tries to goes into prisons and gives prisoners surveys and talks the kind of questionnaires talks to the prisoners. And the idea is to give them a forum to express in their own terms, in their own voices, to hear how the conditions of prison life are. 

卡米尔·罗伯西：这个团体是于1971年由一群社会活动家组建的，包括一些参与到“五月风暴”中的学生和知识分子，其中就包括福柯。而这个组织总是去监狱里给囚犯们做调研，并设计问卷来问他们一些问题。目的是给他们提供一个渠道来表达他们自己的意愿，让他们以自己的声音，去说明监狱生活的情况到底是什么样的。

Camille Robcis: I think the GIP is very, very important to understand Foucault’s own kind of mode of thinking about imprisonment, about especially discipline within the prisons.

卡米尔·罗伯西：我认为“监狱信息小组”对于理解福柯对监狱的那一套独到见解非常重要，特别是监狱内部的规训。

Zachary Davis: Prison reform wasn’t only on Foucault’s mind. It was a topic of public discussion. In the early 1970s, there were several prison revolts in France and in the U.S. The one that really caught Foucault’s attention took place in 1971 at the Attica Correctional Facility in New York. In this all-male prison, over half of the inmates revolted, demanding better living conditions and more political rights.

扎卡里·戴维斯：监狱改革不只是福柯一个人的想法，而是当时大众广泛讨论的一个议题。在1970年早期，法国和美国都发生了几次监狱暴乱。真正引起福柯注意的是发生于1971年美国纽约阿蒂卡改造设施的暴乱。在这座男性监狱里，一半的犯人都参与了暴动，要求改善居住条件和更多的政治权利。

Camille Robcis: He visits Attica later and he says that Attica in some ways, again highlights the ways in which the kinds of the daily humiliations that the prisoners were subjected to, right? And  really revealed to him that the absurdity of the prison system in many ways. But why it continues, you know, going in some ways that way continues despite the fact that it is so inefficient, absurd, cruel. Right. All of the things that the prison was not supposed to be. 

卡米尔·罗伯西：福柯随后就前往了阿蒂卡监狱，并说阿蒂卡在某些方面再次体现了犯人们在监狱里日复一日所受到的凌辱。他揭示了监狱系统在很多方面的荒谬性。但为什么它依然存在呢？尽管它缺乏效率、很荒唐、很残忍，却依然存在着。这和监狱所应取得的效果完全是背道而驰。

Zachary Davis: In 1975, Foucault published Discipline and Punish, in which he traces the evolution of punishment and the modern prison system through history.

扎卡里·戴维斯：在1975年，福柯出版了《规训与惩罚》，在这本书中他回溯了刑罚以及现代监狱系统在历史上的演变。

Zachary Davis: Well, let's dive into the text itself. So take us through the argument. 

扎卡里·戴维斯：好的，咱们现在来深入说一说这本书。带我们了解一下书中的观点吧。

Camille Robcis: On the most general level. You could read it as a kind of, as a historical narrative that traces the history of punishment, right, so Foucault distinguishes three big phases, if you'd like, in the history of punishment. and it's easy because each one corresponds to a section of the book. So the first one, which is basically part one of the book is The Old Regime. He calls as the ancien régime the kind of spectacular display of punishment by a sovereign. 

卡米尔·罗伯西：总的来说，你可一把这本书当成一部历史记叙来读，它回溯了刑罚的历史。而福柯把刑罚的历史分为了三个主要阶段，这点很明显，因为书的每一部分就对应其中一个阶段。在第一部分，也就是他所谓的“旧体制”中，描述了君主是如何把刑罚作为一种奇观来进行的。

Camille Robcis: So the example he gives is the famous case of Damien, who was a poor guy who tried to kill the King the Louis the 15th. And he got famously killed by being tortured and then killed by being pulled apart by four horses. And so, you know, what Foucault is interested in is the kind of spectacle, the pain, but also the fact that it doesn't really work. Right. It's like it never it's like always hard to get it like that or, you know, it's just like hard to the horses are not going to the right way etc., etc. Timing is really tough. 

卡米尔·罗伯西：比方说他举了那个很有名的达米安的例子，这个倒霉的家伙企图刺杀国王路易十五，结果被抓住以后受尽了酷刑，最后在大庭广众之下被四马分尸了。所以，福柯对这种奇观、这种苦痛很感兴趣，尤其是它最后其实并没有达到理想的效果。有时候马会往错的方向跑，而且时间很难拿捏准，等等。

Camille Robcis: And so the second part of the book is basically which corresponds to the you know, the second to the part two and part three of the book is the the kind of the moment of the Enlightenment, what he calls the age of reform. And this is with people like Beccaria or enlightenment thinkers, basically physiocrats, who thought that first that this form of of punishment was obviously too cruel, right too barbaric. It becomes a kind of symbol of the of the despotic sovereignty of the absolutist king. Right. And so they want a more just society and also a more just law. Right. 

卡米尔·罗伯西：而书的第二章和第三章对应了启蒙的时刻，也是他所谓的改革的时代。这个时候就有了像贝卡利亚这些启蒙思想家，基本上还有重农学派的人。他们首先提出这种惩罚显然太残忍、太野蛮了。它代表了专横的君主制，代表了专制的国王。所以他们想要一个更加公正的社会、更加公平的法制。

Zachary Davis: Not only was this form of punishment too barbaric, it was also economically inefficient. This model couldn’t scale. 

扎卡里·戴维斯：这种惩罚不仅太野蛮，而且在经济上缺乏效率，规模上是有限的。

Camille Robcis: And finally, the third part is basically what he calls the modern period. And that corresponds to the last part of the book, part four, which is basically the emergence of the prison, the prison, as we know it today, what he and what he calls the carceral society. The example he gives here, the kind of epitome of this is Mettray, which was built in 1840. So around 1840, he dates this kind of new carceral form that he is interested in. 

卡米尔·罗伯西：而最后，第三部分则是他所谓的现代时期，也对应了书最后的第四章，这时出现了我们今天所知道的监狱，也被他称为监禁社会。他给的最典型的例子就是建立于1840年的梅特赖监狱。这种他很感兴趣的新型监禁方式出现于大约1840年。

Zachary Davis: This is the first way one could read the book—as a historical account of the evolution of punishment.

扎卡里·戴维斯：这也是对本书的第一种解读—即把它看作一个对惩罚手段演变的历史性回顾。

Camille Robcis: And I think the second more complex reading of the book is also as a theory of power.

卡米尔·罗伯西：而我认为对这本书的第二种更复杂的解读则是把它看成是一套权力理论。

Camille Robcis: How is it that we shifted from the power that was incarnated in the figure of the sovereign personified in the sovereign, to this new form of power, which is dispersed. It's capillary. You don't see it anymore. Right? You can exact it operates everywhere and yet nowhere because it's not located in a particular person. And so and so this is the kind of question of the book is how did we shift from this spectacular, mean, cruel power to this other form of disciplinary power?

卡米尔·罗伯西：我们所看到的权力是如何从集中在一个人格化的君主制上转换为这种新型的权力，这种分散的权力。它像毛细血管一样分布。你没法再看到它了。它无处不在，又无处可寻，因为它不是来自某个特定的人。所以这本书抛出的一个问题就是我们是如何从这种奇观一样的、残忍的权力演变到另一种规训式的权力。

Zachary Davis: It would be easy to read that historical story as a story of progress and triumph. You know, I mean, we don't want people splayed and flayed and, you know, burned at the stake that yes, sure, prison is hard. But, you know, it's so much more humane than in the past. Could you, maybe you could correct that vision? Because I think that's what's partly so provocative 

扎卡里·戴维斯：这本书确实很容易被当成一个历史向更好的方向演进的故事。我们当然不想有人被大卸八块，被绑在火刑柱上烧死。尽管监狱里确实也很严酷，但是，这比过去还是人道多了。所以也许您可以帮我们纠正一下这种观点？因为我觉得这个观点在某种程度上确实很有争议。

Camille Robcis: Yeah, I think that's exactly right. I mean, I think that is the main the most provocative argument of the book, I think is focused critique of liberalism and and especially this idea that, you know, that the prison is a less cruel version of punishment than the kind of tearing apart by the four horses. Foucault is basically saying right away, you know, no, no, no, don't be fooled by this. Right. It may be presented as such, but this is part of his genealogical approach,  it was never about punishing less.

卡米尔·罗伯西：对，我觉得这说的没错。这确实是这本书最受人争议的观点，也就是对自由主义的批判，特别是认为监狱要比四马分尸更温和的一种惩罚方式。而福柯其实马上就说：不、不是这样，别被它给欺骗了。它可能看上去确实是这样，但根据他的谱系学的研究方法，并不是要惩罚得更轻，而是要惩罚得更有效。

Camille Robcis: It was about punishing better. The prison was presented as a more efficient way to punish people as opposed to, you know, the kind of torture or gory scenes that we've been talking about in the early modern period. And so, you know, what's interesting is that he says in some ways the impetus here is not so much humanitarian as it is economic, almost. Right. It's more the prison appears more almost more efficient because I mean, this leads us into the, you know, his discussion of disciplinary power. 

卡米尔·罗伯西：监狱是作为一种更高效的惩罚犯人的方法，这是相对于那种在前现代时期残酷血腥来讲。所以，它背后的动机并不主要是人道主义，而更多的是经济方面的原因。因为监狱似乎更加高效，而这就把我们引到了他对规训权力的讨论。

Camille Robcis: One of the things that happens in the prison is that especially with the figure of the panopticon. So he takes this idea from Jeremy Bentham is that you have the kind of tower in the middle and all the prisoners are are organized around you. The cells you don't need, you know, 60 guards around. You just need one guard in the middle pretending to look at all the prisoners. And in fact, you don't even need that guard there because the prisoners will behave as if there is a guard in that tower. So it's a kind of brilliant architectural move. 

卡米尔·罗伯西：监狱，特别是全景监狱里会有这样一个现象。他借用了杰瑞米·边沁的构想，即你在监狱中心有一个塔楼，而囚犯都被关在周围。这个监狱就不需要百十来个狱卒，而是只需要一个狱卒假装他在盯着所有囚犯。实际上，你甚至可能都不需要那一个狱卒，只要假装塔楼里有人就能让囚犯们乖乖就范了。所以这样一个建筑就设计得非常精明。

Camille Robcis: and so it's extremely effective because you behave as if you're being watched all the time and Foucault what's amazing about this book is it's not obviously not just about the prison. He uses the prison as a way to think about what he calls discipline in society in general. And the rise of the prison only makes sense if you understand the rise of disciplinary mechanisms throughout society, for example, in the hospital. So this is where it links to his works on the asylum in schools in in ah, in the army. Right. 

卡米尔·罗伯西：所以它非常有效，因为你的言行举止都好像有人在时刻盯着你。而福柯这本书很厉害的一点就是它并不仅仅是关于监狱，他把监狱作为一种思考社会如何规训人的缩影。而要理解监狱的兴起必须要了解社会方方面面的规训机制，就比方说在医院里。所以这样就和他那些对疯人院、学校和军队的研究都联系起来了。

Camille Robcis: So all of these all of these institutions depend on discipline. And think about the school, for example, the way that you were taught that, you know, to hold your pen in a certain way, to sit in a certain way,good handwriting. And the military too you know, the point is not to just gather the strongest, best warriors, but to hire people who can follow disciplinary mechanisms. Right. And kind of obey orders, hold the, you know, their weapons in a particular way, et cetera, et cetera. So you can control a lot more people. So this is very, very this is, I think, extremely important in Foucault’s book. It's what seems more benevolent or less less harmful is often not the case. This is where he really, as I was saying, to denaturalise,to take apart everything that seems self-evident. 

卡米尔·罗伯西：所以，所有这些社会机构都依赖于规训。比方说想一想学校，你是怎么被要求比方说必须以特定的一种姿势握笔，必须以某个姿势坐着，必须把字写工整等等。而军队也是这样，它不只只是要找到最强壮最好的战士，还是要雇佣一群能遵守规训机制的人。要服从命令，必须以某种姿势拿住他们的武器，等等。这样你就能控制很多的人。所以这在福柯的书里都非常非常重要。这种看上去更仁慈更无害的东西其实往往不是这样。所以他在这里就重新审视这种现象，去解构这种貌似理所当然的东西。

Camille Robcis: Right. And it's a critique of liberalism because it shows you that, you know, the kind of liberal feel good idea of “well the prison is better than killing them” is, in fact, a kind of masking of power. I mean, I don't think he would say it was better before. You know, it's not again, it's not better or worse. It's just different economies of power in some ways with the kind of sovereignty model. You saw it, right. It was very visible. You saw the power. Now you don't even notice. And that's the part that's so pernicious and so cunning. Right? It's the it's that you don't even know that you're in this.

卡米尔·罗伯西：这就是在批判自由主义，因为它就体现出那种“监狱至少好过死刑”的自由主义的慰藉实际上是在掩盖权力。我并不觉得他会说过去比现在更好，并不是变得更好或更坏。它只不过是不同的权力经济运转方式，过去的那种君主制，你很容易就能看到。你能看到权力，但现在你甚至都注意不到它。而这就很狡猾、很危险了，特别是你甚至都意识不到你身处其中。

Zachary Davis: What makes things even more complicated about this form of power is that it’s not just held by the state.

扎卡里·戴维斯：而让这种权力更复杂的地方则是并不只有国家在行使它。

Camille Robcis: Who is doing the power here is not is never clear. Right. It's not the state. Because why would the state and I mean the state benefits from from an army, but it's from having a disciplined army, but not necessarily from having disciplined children who listen to schools, you know. So who is actually benefiting from this? At times he kind of suggests it's the bourgeoisie. So he says that the emergence of this disciplinary framework coincides with the development of capitalism and the need to basically organize men. 

卡米尔·罗伯西：谁在行使权力是很难弄清楚的。并不是国家。因为国家虽然需要军队，但它需要的是一个服从命令的军队，但你要知道国家并不一定需要一群服从学校命令的小孩。所以到底是谁受益了呢？当时他认为是资产阶级受益了。因为规训体制的兴起恰好也和资本主义的发展是并行的，它需要服从组织的工人。

Camille Robcis: in order to accumulate capital, you need to have these men in factories, for example, respect timetables, work conditions, you know, whatever, don't get drunk. Right. So it's all of kind of disciplinary mechanisms that that kind of, you know, track you in some ways. 

卡米尔·罗伯西：为了累积资本，你需要工厂里的人遵守时刻表、遵守工作条款，各种要求，比如不能酗酒。所以有各种规训机制在监控你。

Zachary Davis: What is unique about modern discipline is the surveillance. In modern prisons that use the panopticon design, the prison cells are arranged in a circle around a central guard tower. The prisoners can’t tell if they’re being watched or not, so they have to act as if they’re always being watched.   

扎卡里·戴维斯：而现代规训最独特的一点就是监视。在使用了全景设计的现代监狱里，牢房按圆形环绕着警卫塔排布。囚犯们不知道是不是有人在盯着他们，所以他们的言行都必须假定时时刻刻有人盯着他们。

Zachary Davis: The panopticon exists metaphorically beyond the prison walls. This is how modern power works, using psychological and not just physical control. This type of power shapes society and those who live in it. And Foucault recognizes that power structures and discipline exist beyond the state level. They’re present in our jobs, on social media, and even interpersonally. By submitting to this discipline and these power structures, you become a subject of society.

扎卡里·戴维斯：全景监狱也可以是对整个社会的比喻。现代权力机制就是这样运转的，它不止运用物理手段控制你，还运用心理手段控制你。这种权力塑造着其中的所有人。而且福柯意识到权力和规训结构并不只存在于国家层面，还出现在我们的工作中，在社交媒体上，甚至在人际关系中。通过向这种规训和权力结构屈服，你就成了社会中的一个主体。

Camille Robcis: Power is always relational, right? It's never it's never possessed by one person. It's never held by one person. It's always the kind of relationships it organizes all with all social relationships that we live in.

卡米尔·罗伯西：权力永远是相对的。它并不属于某个人，从不为特定某个人所用。他永远是一种组织关系，处于我们所身处的所有社会关系中。

Camille Robcis: If you think about, you know, disciplinary mechanisms, more generally, you still need to conform to it to some extent. Right. So there's a kind of training that happens that makes you be a subject like that is the kind of that is how you are recognised in society. Right. As someone who, you know, performs certain gender conventions, performs certain norms around like again, like, you know, how you hold your spoon, how you know you when you eat, how you close your mouth, how you sit at a table, you know, all of these things become. So there are class norms, but not only there are more kinds of norms of belonging to society.

卡米尔·罗伯西：如果你从整体角度构想一下规训机制，你就会发现你还是要在某种程度上服从它的。所以有各种训练让你成为一个主体，这样才能在社会里获得肯定。作为一个服从各种性别传统的人，服从各种规范的人，比方说，怎么拿勺子，怎么吃饭，怎么把嘴闭上嚼东西，怎么坐在餐桌前，你知道的所有这些都是。所以这里不止有各种阶级规范，还有属于不同社会的各种规范。

Zachary Davis: For some reason I had the thought that, you know, language is disciplinary. You have to follow rules or else you, it's just babbling. And so, yes, I am disciplined by my English, and yet it's how I have subjectivity. Is he trying to change power, what's the world he's trying to buil through his scholarship?

扎卡里·戴维斯：不知怎么的我觉得语言也是一种规训，你必须遵守某种规则，否则就是在胡言乱语。所以，我被我说的英语所规训，而这却也是我主体的一部分。他是想改变权力吗？他通过学术研究到底想构建一个怎样的世界？

Camille Robcis: It's a very much an activist book in the sense that he's giving you the tools to recognize how these effects of power work in society. And he says this actually, he says that he he hopes his work becomes a toolbox. You know, he uses this for History of Madness and for Discipline and Punish like a kind of toolbox that activists can use. Because once you see how these how power operates, like at least you're not fooled by it. You're not kind of, you know, taken in. And then you can signify certain things to kind of to shift relations of power slightly, you know, to your advantage or this or that. But he says the problem is, is to imagine that we would somehow be outside of power, liberated. Right. He says he's a very strong critic against liberation in history of sexuality, against a kind of freedom Marxist idea of, you know, if you have enough sex, it will be good and you'll be free. Right. But it's the same thing is that, you know, if you if the proletariat acquires the means of production, then will be free. No, that is not that is not how his notion of power works. But you could potentially shift things around, right. Once you recognize it. 

卡米尔·罗伯西：所以这很大程度上是给社会运动人士的一本书，给你提供一些识别社会中种种权力运作的工具。而且他确实也说了，他希望他的研究能提供一个工具箱。他的《疯癫与文明》《规训与惩罚》都是想作为一个给社会运动人士的工具箱。因为一旦你看到这些权力是怎么运作的，你就至少不会被它蒙骗到。你就不会轻易地接受它。这样你就能找出一些东西来稍稍改变权力的关系，让它变的对你有利一点。但他说问题在于，我们总会想象自己能身处权力之外，能获得解放。所以他对历史上各种解放，性别的解放，马克思主义的解放，都持有很批判的态度，就好像只要你性方面足够开放，你就自由了那样。还有像是如果无产阶级夺取了生产手段就能得到解放了。不，他对权力运作的理解并非如此。但只要你认识到它了，你就能稍微改变它。

Zachary Davis: One way to rethink forms of discipline and power is to examine the ways they reinforce themselves. 

扎卡里·戴维斯：反思规训和权力的一种方法就是审视他们是如何强化自己的。

Camille Robcis: What would it mean to do prison reform without the notions of guilt and innocence to if you don't start with that, like if you don't have guilt and innocence as your starting point, where does prison reform look like? What does psychiatry look like when you don't have the concepts of mad and sane? Right. 

卡米尔·罗伯西：如果监狱改革不从有罪和无罪这些概念开始，如果你不以它们为起点，那监狱改革应该是什么样的呢？如果没有疯癫和理智的概念，那精神治疗又得是什么样的呢？

Camille Robcis: good, evil, guilty, innocent, mad, not mad and reasonable, gay, straight, women, men, all of these kinds of categories that the structure of your life. If you don't start with that, then what do you where do you go? 

卡米尔·罗伯西：好、坏、有罪、无罪、疯癫、理智、同性恋、异性恋、男人、女人，所有这些分类构成了你的人生。如果你不从这里开始，那你还能到哪里去呢？

Camille Robcis: So to not take for for granted the starting to take those things apart and see what happens after.

卡米尔·罗伯西：所以为了不把这些东西视作理所当然，我们必须把它剖开来，看看会发生什么。

Zachary Davis: If I remember, he talks about insanity a bit and you know that in different places and in different times, you can have a radically different interpretation of what insanity is and the social role of it. And just for example, there was a social role for the holy fool. Yes. You know, in retrospect, it seems like somebody with severe mental illnesses, you know, wandering around saying strange things probably, you know, needs help. And yet instead of sort of putting them away in a locked room for their own good air quotes. They are embraced as kind of a part of society and given a certain form of dignity, and you could imagine using that, you know, using history to say there are alternatives to mythologising and medicalising difference, the difference is not always like, you know, a problem to solve.

扎卡里·戴维斯：如果我记得没错的话，他也多少谈到了疯癫，而在不同的时期，不同的地方，人们对疯癫以及其社会作用都有着截然不同的看法。比方说吧，过去神圣的愚者也是有一定社会地位的。事后看来，一个看起来有严重精神疾病，到处游荡说一些“奇怪”的话的人很有可能需要帮助。相比于把他们抓起来关到小房间里对空气说话，过去的人们会包容他们为社会的一部分，并给予他们某种尊严。所以你可以想象他用历史来告诉我们对待不同不一定要把它神秘化，变成一个医疗问题。与众不同并不一定是个需要被解决的问题。

Camille Robcis: Exactly. The idea of reason requires madness. Right? So in some ways, madness becomes a problem for him when reason becomes a problem. And again, when there's this new economy of power knowledge that comes about with, you know, psychiatrists, psychologists, et cetera, et cetera, and also criminal, the criminal justice system, essentially that, as you say, locks up, you know, wants to put these people who before that were seen as kind of like, you know, a little bit strange wanderers. Now, all of a sudden they have a name. Right, and they have a pathology and they have a kind of classificatory. They enter a classification regime. 

卡米尔·罗伯西：没错，没有疯癫的概念也就没有理智。所以在某些方面，如果疯癫是个问题，那理智对他来说也是个问题。而当这里出现了这种新型权力知识经济，比方说精神医师、心理学家等等，还有执法系统，特别是当你说你要把这些人都关起来，哪怕过去人们只是把他们当作有些古怪的流浪者。现在，所有这些东西突然就有名字了。他们就有了病理上的分类，属于一个分类管理体系。

Camille Robcis: And so it does put kind of very difficult questions around, you know, the shifting nature of norms. Right. You know, are all of these historically constructed, et cetera, et cetera. You know, the kind of problem of ethics and Foucault’s work is also something that's been talked about a lot. Right. 

卡米尔·罗伯西：所以这就抛出了一个很困难的问题，规范是如何不断变化的。所有这些东西是不是都是历史上建构出来的，等等。所有这些伦理问题，还有很多福柯的研究都在讨论这些。

Zachary Davis: One of Foucault’s main insights is that knowledge and morality are historically contingent. What is considered ‘better’ or ‘truer’ today compared to earlier times might not actually be better or more truthful. It might just be seen that way because of how modern power shapes language and institutions, which then shape our views. 

扎卡里·戴维斯：福柯的一个主要观点就是知识与道德在历史上都是不断变化的。什么被认为更好、更正确，放在过去也许并不一定被认为更好、更正确。我们会这样看待他们，可能只是因为现代权力塑造了我们的语言和各种社会机构，从而塑造了我们的观点。

Zachary Davis: He says that every culture and every era has certain underlying assumptions that are based on the knowledge of that time. These assumptions determine what is seen as “the truth”. This “truth” is power. Foucault uses the term power-knowledge to explain how power is created through accepted forms of knowledge. 

扎卡里·戴维斯：他说每一个时期每一种文化都会根据当时的知识产生一些特定的假设。这些假设决定了什么是“真理”。这种“真理”也就成了权力。福柯用“权力知识”来解释权力是如何从广为人接受的知识中产生的。

Camille Robcis: You know, I don't think he would disagree with the idea that there are objective truths out there, but the question is more that these truths are always imbued, are always produced by a particular power regime and that is so true knowledge and, you know, the term is power knowledge. So they are absolutely linked with one another. Right. And its power produces this knowledge and knowledge produces this power. And so it cannot you know, the fact that, for example, the prison, the emergence of the prison was accompanied by all of these other disciplines like, you know, lawyers and criminologists and psychologists and psychiatrists, the theories that they had only made sense because this knowledge is were applied to the particular object that was incarceration. 

卡米尔·罗伯西：你要知道，我并不觉得他会否认客观真理的存在，但问题在于这些真理总是由某种特定权力机制生产灌输出来的，这点确实是这样，而且你知道，它叫权力知识。所以它们之间一定是相互关联的。是权力创造了这种知识，知识又创造了这种权力。比方说，监狱的兴起就是和其它所有这些手段一同出现的，比如律师、犯罪学家、心理学家、精神病学家，他们发展出的理论能讲得通完全是因为这些知识要被运用于被关押的特定对象。

Camille Robcis: So it is certainly true that power uses particular forms of knowledge all the time. Right. So and that is the way power legitimizes itself.

卡米尔·罗伯西：所以，权力无疑会一直运用某些特定形式的知识，所以这就是权力把自己合法化的方式。

Zachary Davis: How do you see his ideas getting picked up and absorbed into broader discourse? 

扎卡里·戴维斯：您怎么看待他的观点被接受并吸纳到其它广泛的讨论中呢。

Camille Robcis: What's interesting about the reception of Foucault in the U.S., especially in the 1990s, is that he put his finger on a kind of or he rather he gave again these tools for a different kind of activism. That was not that was I don't know if it was, you know, I don't know. I wouldn't call it cultural Marxism, but it was certainly a kind of it was on the left and it was different from Marxism in the sense that it wasn't centralized. It wasn't about, you know, acquiring the means of production necessarily. But it was much more about shifting conversations, shifting that kind of tactics and also about politicizing everyday life. 

卡米尔·罗伯西：很有趣的是福柯的理论在美国受到的反响，特别是在90年代，他自己的这套理论工具被用于另外一种社会运动。我不会把它称为是文化马克思主义，不过它无疑是属于左翼的，但又不像马克思主义那样中心化。它不一定是关于夺取生产的手段。它更多的是关于改变对话的策略，并认识到日常生活中政治化的部分。

Camille Robcis: So, I mean, for example, when I was in college, Foucault was extremely important for a group like Act Up right. Act Upwas always about obviously politicizing your life, politicizing your everyday sexuality, but also about strategies, right. Small tactical interventions rather than like destroy, you know, or like win an election or else like, you know, destroy, I don't know, the all power. That was never the point. It was more like little tactical shifts. You can think of a lot of human kind of non-governmental politics like that. You know, certainly, again, like in the field of sexuality, of feminism, but also I think a lot of prison reform has been very interested in the work of a Foucault, raise signification. And I think what's interesting with Foucault is that he's also had a kind of revival in France within the activist circles in the 2000s I think. 

卡米尔·罗伯西：所以我的意思是，比方说，在我上大学的时候，福柯对艾滋病患者联合运动有着极为重要的作用。这场运动很显然是要使你的日常生活更政治化，使你的性取向更政治化，但其中也有策略。小的策略性干预，而非彻底的摧毁，比如赢得选举，或者像是摧毁一切权威。这从来不是要点。它更像是小的策略性的调整。你可以想到人类很多非政府的政治活动，就像那样，比如性别领域，女权领域，但我觉得很多监狱改革对福柯的研究也很感兴趣，也提高了他的地位。而且我觉得很有趣的一点是福柯的思想在2000年左右的法国社会运动圈子里也有了某种程度上的复兴。

Camille Robcis: In France, I think a lot of activists have returned to the work of Foucault to think about different ways to intervene in the political sphere. 

卡米尔·罗伯西：在法国，我想很多社会运动家都回归到了福柯的研究中，来思考各种能干预政治领域的方法。

Camille Robcis: I mean, just to give one example, there's a group I really love called LaBeau in France, which is a feminist groups, and they will it's these women who will put beards on, and they go and intervene. And if there is a kind of all male panel, they'll go and start reading from, like Olympe de Gouze or Simone de Beauvoir or whatever. And they are very you know, it's very Foucauldian in their understanding of, again, politics. What does it mean? And means that, again, your unmasking power, you're kind of showing how these panels shouldn't be. You know, they should have more people of color. They should have more women. They should have there should be more diverse. But it's but also with irony. Right. It's exposing this with irony and showing and it's not saying like, let's cancel the panel. Let's get you out of there. It's more like shifting around and saying like, well, from now on, you know, you'll be thinking about this when your next time you organize a new panel. So I think Foucault’s work is extremely important for I mean, it's given immense, immensely productive academic work for sure, but also a very. lasting legacy in activist circles. I think both in France and in the U.S.

卡米尔·罗伯西：我就举一个例子吧，在法国有一个我很喜欢的女权团体，她们会戴上假胡子到处插手。比如说如果有一个只有男性的读书会，她们就会到那里去读一些比如奥兰普·德古热和西蒙·波伏娃的作品。而且她们对政治的理解非常受福柯影响。这是什么意思呢？这就是说，你要揭示权力，你要指出这些读书会为什么有问题：应该有更多有色人种参与进来，应该有更多女性。这里应该更加多元。但同时这也是一种讽刺。她们用一种讽刺的方式把它揭示出来，而不是像比如直接把读书会取消掉，把人赶出来。它更多的是做一些改进，你下次组织这种读书会就要考虑到这些了。所以我认为福柯的作品非常重要，因为他不仅在学术领域非常高产，而且在社会运动圈子里产生了深远的影响，不论是在法国还是在美国。

Zachary Davis: Foucault encourages us to constantly question our current moment using history as a mirror. Every era establishes norms, but Foucault argues that these norms are not necessarily truths but rather the result of particular configurations of power. He inspires us to not so easily accept our own myths.

扎卡里·戴维斯：福柯鼓励我们不断以史为鉴质疑当下，每一个时代都会产生特定的规范，但福柯认为这些规范并不见得就是金科玉律，而是某种权力配置所产生的结果，他鼓励我们不要轻易接受自己的迷思和假设。

Camille Robcis: For me the most. Important lesson for me as a reader of discipline or Foucault in general is, is as a critique of enlightenment liberalism, a kind of Western liberalism, the idea that there would be a kind of I mean, we could imagine a society governed by kind of rational actors or composed of rational actors who would make informed decisions right. In that kind of space that would be free of there would be an equal playing field. And I think just like takes that rips it at its core. Right, though, by inserting this idea of power at its very at its very roots. He's writing you know, he's writing this in a moment also of a kind of great moment of critique of Marxism. Right. This is the moment in the 70s when all these new Soviet Solzhenitsyn's book is out the Gulag Archipelago. Like all of these ideas of, you know, the Stalinism had all of these problems, Marxism, various problems. But Foucault is kind of saying, like, guess what, liberalism has a ton of problems, too. And he uses the word the term archipelago several times in his archipelago, sorry, an English archipelago in his book.

卡米尔·罗伯西：作为一个《规训与惩罚》和福柯诸多作品的读者，我学到的最重要的一课是批判启蒙运动所产生的自由主义，一种西方的自由主义。这种认为我们的社会只能由理性的参与者结合信息作出正确的决定这种观点。好像只要在这种社会人人就平等自由了。而我想福柯直指问题的要害，用权力这个概念直击它的根源。他当时写作的年代也是一个对马克思主义大加批判的年代。那时是70年代，苏联的索尔仁尼琴出版了他关于古拉格群岛的书。所有这些观点，斯大林主义、马克思主义都有这样那样一些问题。但福柯就说自由主义也有一大堆问题。而他在自己的书里面也常常用上群岛这个词。

Camille Robcis: He used it several times and in Discipline and Punish, you know, to kind of say, like, you know, this is just as dangerous and you don't see it. Right. It's under it. he says that he says discipline is the underside of democracy. Right. So we like he's a critic of democracy in many ways, not because he's saying there's something better, but because he's saying, let's just not think that this is so great. Let's think about what is the underbelly of it, the kind of complement, the constitutive element of democracy is this kind of disciplinary, you know, regulatory impetus. And I think for that, Foucault is really a luminary.

卡米尔·罗伯西：比如在《规训与惩罚》中他就很多次用到群岛这个词，用来说明，有些东西虽然你没有看到，但它其实同样危险。它是隐蔽的，他说规训是民主黑暗的一面。所以他在很多方面批判了民主，并不是说还有更好的替代品，而是说，我们不要以为它有多好。我们来想一想它背后藏着什么，那种和民主相辅相成的东西其实也是一种规训，一种管理因素。而就这一方面，我觉得福柯真的点亮了一盏明灯。

Zachary Davis: Writ Large is a production of Ximalaya. Writ Large is produced by Jack Pombriant, Liza French, and me, Zachary Davis. Script editing is by Galen Beebe. We get help from Feiran Du, Ariel Liu, and Monica Zhang. Our theme song is by Ian Coss. Don’t miss an episode. Subscribe today in the Ximalaya app. Thanks for listening. See you next time.

扎卡里·戴维斯：本节目由喜马拉雅独家制作播出。感谢您的收听，我们下期再见！