【英文翻译版83】大卫·贝尔：《忏悔录》

英文文稿+中文翻译

Zachary Davis: Jean-Jacques Rousseau led an interesting life. He was a philosopher, writer and music composer in the 18th century. Rousseau believed that society has an enormous influence on human development and behavior. In his later years, he wrote a detailed account of his life to help explain how his own experiences shaped his personality, views, neuroses, and imperfections. This autobiography was called Confessions.

扎卡里·戴维斯：让-雅克·卢梭过着精彩的生活。 他是 18 世纪的哲学家、作家和作曲家。 卢梭相信，社会对人类的发展和行为有着巨大的影响。 卢梭在晚年详细记录了自己的生活，并尝试以此解释他的经历如何塑造了他的个性、观点、神经质和不完美。 这本自传便是《忏悔录》。

David Bell: It's such a book that seems to be at the starting point for so much of modern culture, for so much of, not just of modern culture, but of the way we think today in Western societies. The book just, you know, invented so much of the modern mindset, if you want to call it that.

大卫·贝尔：这本书似乎是记录了现代文明的起点和当下西方社会的思维方式的原点。 这本书可以说是“创造”了很多现代思维方式。

David Bell: My name is David Bell. I'm a professor of history at Princeton University. I'm a specialist in French history, particularly the history of the 18th century, the early 19th century, which is to say the Enlightenment, the French Revolution and Napoleon.

大卫·贝尔：我是大卫·贝尔，普林斯顿大学的历史学教授。 我专攻法国历史的研究，尤其是 18 世纪、19 世纪初叶的历史，也就是启蒙运动、法国大革命和拿破仑时期。

Zachary Davis: Rousseau pioneered new ways of thinking about education, politics, and the human personality that still resonate in modern society. 

扎卡里·戴维斯：卢梭开创了关于教育、政治和人类个性的新思维方式，这些方式仍然在现代社会中引起共鸣。

David Bell: So this notion of the corrupting effects of society as we understand society. The notion of the effect of childhood experience on the formation of adult personality. The influence of personality upon the written word and upon writing. I think these are all enormously powerful examples of the way that Rousseau influences people.

大卫·贝尔：他定义了社会研究中社会的腐化效应，揭示了童年经历如何影响人格的形成，也说明了一个人的个性如何影响他的作品以及他的写作过程。 我想这些都是体现卢梭思想影响力的例子。

Zachary Davis: Welcome to Writ Large, a podcast about how books change the world. I’m Zachary Davis. In each episode, I talk with one of the world’s leading scholars about one book that changed the course of history. For this episode, I sat down with Professor David Avrom Bell to discuss Jean-Jacques Rousseau’s Confessions.

扎卡里·戴维斯：欢迎收听：改变你和世界的100书，在这里我们为大家讲述改变世界的书籍。我是扎卡里·戴维斯。每一集，我都会和一位世界顶尖学者讨论一本影响历史进程的书。在本集，我将和大卫·阿夫罗姆·贝尔教授一起讨论让-雅克·卢梭的《忏悔录》。

Zachary Davis: So could you just tell us about Rousseau? Sketch his life for us and why did he, why was impelled to write a book like this?

扎卡里·戴维斯：首先，请您介绍一下卢梭，为我们描绘一下他的生活以及他为什么要写这样一本书。

David Bell: Ah, so Rousseau is one of the great figures of the 18th century, of course, one of the great figures of the French Enlightenment. One of the most striking things about his life is that until he was in his late thirties, most people considered him something of a failure, something of a crank, an eccentric. He was born in 1712 in Geneva, which was then an independent city state, a Protestant city state, really a Puritan city state in what's now Switzerland. He grew up there. His father was an artisan, a watchmaker. But he ran away from home when he was just a teenager and really spent much of the next 20 years really wandering, bumming around, working odd jobs, working as a laborer or working as a domestic servant, working as a private secretary. He eventually made his way to Paris, where he fell in with a group of young thinkers, those were the philosophes. And but he hadn't written very much of his own. And in fact, he was known, above all, for his insistence on trying to pedal a new system of musical notation that he had invented. And that was really and then nobody else really was very excited by, but that he was absolutely obsessed with. And then when he was in his late thirties, he wrote what we now know as The First Discourse which all of a sudden gave him European wide fame. 

大卫贝尔：卢梭无疑是18世纪伟大人物之一，当然，也是法国启蒙运动的伟大领袖之一。他一生中最引人注目的故事之一便是，他快要40岁时，大多数人都认为他是一个失败者、一个扭曲的、古怪的人。1712 年，卢梭出生在日内瓦，日内瓦在当时是一个独立的新教城邦，一个坐落在如今瑞士境内的清教城邦。卢梭在日内瓦长大，他的父亲是一名工匠，一名钟表匠。但他在十几岁的时候就离家出走了，在接下来的 20 年里，他几乎一直在四处游荡、打零工或当家庭佣人、当私人秘书。他最终去了巴黎，在那里他遇到了一群年轻的思想家、哲学家。但是，他那时自己写的并不多，他的名气更多是因为坚持不懈推动他发明的新乐谱系统。虽然卢梭对此非常着迷，但并没有其他人对此感到兴奋。转眼卢梭到了快40岁的年纪，他写了我们现在所知的《论科学与艺术》，这让他一下子在欧洲名声大噪。

Zachary Davis: The idea for The First Discourse came about one afternoon in 1749. Rousseau was reading the French gazette Mercure de France and saw an ad placed by the Academy of Dijon. They were sponsoring a prize competition for an essay that responded to the question, “Has the restoration of the sciences and arts contributed to the purification of morals?”

扎卡里·戴维斯：《论科学与艺术》的灵感出现在 1749 年的一个下午。卢梭正在阅读法国的报纸 《法国信使》，并看到第戎学院投放的广告：他们赞助了一项有奖征文比赛，要求参赛者提交论文以论证“ 科学与艺术的复兴是否有助于敦风化俗”。

Zachary Davis: According to Rousseau, upon reading this he, “...saw another universe and became another man.” He had found the idea that set the agenda for the rest of his intellectual career: how society corrupts human beings. This became the thesis of his essay for the competition. He won first prize and his piece was published in 1750. This essay was called Discourse on the Sciences and Arts, also known as TheFirst Discourse.

扎卡里·戴维斯：用卢梭自己的话说，在读到这广告后，他“看到了另一个宇宙，变成了另一个人。” 他找到了此后思考、探索的核心议题：社会是如何腐蚀人类的。 这也是他参加征文比赛的主题。 最终他获得征文竞赛一等奖并在 1750 年发表了他的作品。这篇论文就是我们所熟悉的《论科学与艺术》，也被称为《第一讲演集》。

David Bell: And then over the next 20 years, he became probably the single most famous man in Europe. He wrote, you know, at explosive speed, a series of absolutely extraordinary books and in a wide variety of fields. He wrote conjectural histories, what we might now call a kind of anthropology. He wrote political treatises. He wrote on political economy. 

大卫·贝尔：然后在接下来的 20 年里，卢梭成为了可能是全欧洲最有名的人。 他以爆炸性的速度撰写了一系列非凡的著作，涉猎的领域也非常广泛，包括我们现在可能称之为人类学的推测性历史、政治和政治经济学。

Zachary Davis: Rousseau’s work spanned many genres. He wrote one of the most popular novels in Europe at the time, Julie as well as a treatise on the nature of education called Emile.

扎卡里·戴维斯：卢梭的作品跨越了许多流派。 他写了当时欧洲最受欢迎的小说之一《新爱洛伊斯》以及一部关于探讨教育本质的著作《爱弥尔》。

David Bell: But all through this time, he was also engaged in incessant quarrels with his enemies and even more so with his friends, because it was very difficult to be his friend. He tended to quarrel with his friends. He accused them of betraying him. And he was always defending himself. He was always a controversial figure. And so in the late 1760s, during yet another period of real turmoil in his life, he sat down to decide to write a kind of justification of his existence, which became TheConfessions. So this book he wrote the first half of it, and then he took a break and came back to it a few years later. It was only published after his death. So he died in 1778. He had certainly made parts of it available. He had engaged in public readings of it, but he didn't publish the book itself during his lifetime. The first half was published in 1782. The second half was then published just on the eve of the French Revolution in 1789. It’s an autobiography, but it's also very much a kind of self-justifying autobiography.

大卫·贝尔：但在这段时间里，他也不断地与敌人甚至朋友争吵。想要成为卢梭的朋友是很困难的，他经常和朋友吵架，指责朋友背叛了自己，也极力为自己辩护。卢梭就是这样一个有争议的人物。在 18世纪60年代后期，卢梭生命中又一个动荡的时期，他决定坐下来为他的存在找到一个理由，这就是后来我们看到的《忏悔录》。他先写了这本书的前半部分，中间搁置了几年后才全部完成，所以这本书在他1778年死后才得以正式出版。卢梭在生前发表了书里的部分章节。他有时会在公开场合演讲书里部分的内容，但是没有真的出版这一本书。直到1782年，这本著作的前半部分才得以出版；而后半部分则又要到了1789年法国大革命前夜才得以出版。《忏悔录》是一部自传，但也是一部自我辩护的传记。

Zachary Davis: Rousseau’s Confessions is considered one of the first autobiographical works. There were several others that came before including Augustine’s own Confessions in 400 AD, Saint Teresa’s autobiography in1565, and Memoirs of the Cardinal de Retz in 1717. Unlike Rousseau’s Confessions however, these earlier works focused mostly on religious experiences.

扎卡里·戴维斯：卢梭的《忏悔录》被认为是最早的自传文学作品之一。 之前还有其他几本，包括公元 400 年奥古斯丁的《忏悔录》、1565 年圣特蕾莎的自传和 1717 年雷斯枢机主教回忆录。 然而，与卢梭的《忏悔录》不同，这些早期的作品主要关注宗教体验。

David Bell: So there are many precedents for Rousseau writing his autobiography, but he took the title Confessions, of course, very deliberately from Augustine, because Augustine had written this book that was meant to be, on the one hand, a kind of absolutely unsparing glimpse of his own life. And Rousseau presents his Confessions in the same way. I mean, on the first page, he says, I'm giving you the good and the bad. When this is not, when I'm telling you stories that don't reflect well on me, well you'll have that as well. And he says famously at the beginning of the book, on the very first page, he says, you know, when the last judgment comes, I will simply show up to God with, the sovereign judge as he puts it, with my book. And I'll hand it to him and say, here, you can read it for yourself. And this is quite similar to the tactic taken by Augustine, who also reflected unsparingly on his own sins as a young man and his own desire not to stop sinning, but in fact, to be able to keep a life of pleasure before he was ultimately turned to God. So in that sense, this is very similar, but there are very different sorts of purposes still for the two books, because Augustine was telling the story of its own sinfulness and his own character, in a sense, in order to get beyond the individual human.

大卫·贝尔：在卢梭的自传之前已有不少的自传文学作品，但卢梭特意沿用了奥古斯丁《忏悔录》的书名。奥古斯丁的作品是对他生活的全面审视，卢梭在他的《忏悔录》里呈现的内容也如此。在书的开篇，卢梭便写道“我记录下好的也记录下坏的。如果我记录下的故事反映的是我糟糕的一面，你也会发现的。”也是在这本书的一开始，他写下了著名的“不管末日审判的号角什么时候吹响，我都敢拿着这本书走到至高无上的审判者面前，果敢地大声说：请看，这就是我的一生！”这与奥古斯丁所采取的策略非常相似，他也毫不留情地反思了自己年轻时的罪过以及自己不愿停止犯罪的事实，在最终审判来临之前保持快乐的生活。所以从这个意义上说，卢梭和奥古斯丁的两部作品是非常相似的，但是这两本书的目的截然不同：奥古斯丁记录自己的罪恶和性格，来探寻个体之上的人性，以及基督教的真理。

David Bell: And in order to get to the greater truths of the Christian religion. Which is definitely not what Rousseau is trying to do. With Rousseau, he also sees the path to a certain truth, lying through an unsparing inspection and examination of his own self. But if for Augustine, the truth in question was the truth of Christianity, for Rousseau it was the truth of humanity. But not just humanity in general, but also of the self realized humanity of his own individual self and his own individual character. One of the other things he says right at the beginning of the book is there's never been anybody on Earth like me, and I don't think there ever will be anybody like me. But if you want to see what I was like, then read this book. But the implication is actually that all human beings are different from one another and that they all have to realize their own individual selves as much as possible. And that Rousseau's way of doing this is through his own exploration of his own life in the book. 

大卫·贝尔：而这绝对不是卢梭想要的。虽然卢梭也是通过对自身全面的反思来探寻通往某个真理的道路，但是奥古斯丁想要探寻的是基督教的真理，而卢梭探寻的是关于人性的真理，不单单是普世的人性，也是每个人自我解构、自我发现的个性。卢梭在书的开头还写道，地球上从来没有像我这样的人，而且我认为永远不会有像我这样的人。如果你想看看我是什么样子，那请读这本书吧。他真正想表达的是，每个人都与众不同，每个人都必须去尽可能实践自己的个性。卢梭在书中通过对自己生活的解析来做到这一点。

Zachary Davis: So he's interested in how we come to be ourselves. How does he do that through his text? What is he trying to say about self formation?

扎卡里·戴维斯：所以卢梭更想探讨的是我们如何成为我们自己。 他是如何通过文字来探索这一命题的？ 对于自我建构他想表达些什么呢？

David Bell: What Rousseau is trying to say about self formation is one of the most radically impressive and interesting things about the book, particularly because of the role that he gives to childhood. So the entire first book of TheConfessions is devoted to Russo's childhood from his earliest infancy. He starts by saying, I felt before I could think, which of course, is what is true with all human beings. And he really goes back to his earliest possible memories and he takes us through his childhood. But more than that, he presents his childhood as the mold, which sets the adult personality. And that's something which we take almost for granted today. If we haven't read Rousseau, we've certainly read Freud. And we take absolutely for granted that it's that childhood experience and the adolescent experience that makes us who we are in adulthood, at least in a very large part. But this was not at all the way people thought in the 18th century, not in France, not in not in Europe. People saw children on the one hand as being basically sort of little half formed adults. But for the most part, they didn't take childhood very seriously. They didn't take childhood experience very seriously. It was something that you lived through. But if you had traumas, if you had various intense experiences well, that didn't really matter. The adult personality took shape as you became an adult from your adult experiences, from the fully formed mind at work. 

大卫·贝尔：卢梭试图探讨的自我建构是这本书中最令人印象深刻和值得回味的部分，尤其是他赋予童年的作用。《忏悔录》的第一部是他从婴童时期起的整个童年。他写道，在获得思考能力之前我先获得的感知能力，当然每一个人都如此。他带我们重温了他最早的记忆和童年时期，他也将自己的童年视为模具，塑造了成年时期个性的模具。这是我们今天认为理所当然的事情。 如果我们没有读过卢梭，我们肯定读过弗洛伊德。 我们理所当然地相信，正是童年经历和青少年经历塑造了我们成年后的样子，起码在很大程度上是这样。 但这完全不是 18 世纪人们的思维方式，在法国不是，在欧洲也不是。一方面，人们认为儿童只是尚未完全成型的成年人。更多的时候，他们并没有把童年当回事，并不重视童年的经历，认为那些不过是你经历过的事情罢了。哪怕你受到创伤，有一些不堪回首的回忆，也都不重要。你成年时期的个性，是从你成为一个完全成型的成年人后，才慢慢形成的。

David Bell: I mean, from the very beginning, so he talks about one of the most vivid incidents in the book, comes when he talks about how his nurse, when he's really still a toddler, very hardly more than a toddler, spanks him very hard for some child childhood infraction. And then he says, you know, that the spanking didn't have the effect on me that she intended because it actually excited me. And he then says, you know this for my tastes. And by taste, he very much means sexual tastes going into adulthood. And he learned through this experience to associate pleasure and pain in a somewhat sadomasochistic way, which he says remained at the heart of his sexual tastes throughout his entire life. So this is, I think, the single most colorful example, certainly. But is only one of many examples how in his description of his childhood, he continually says, this is how my adult personality was formed. He will say this in the book and again and again talking about his adolescence and his early adulthood. He says, this is how my adult, he doesn't use the word personality, but that's effectively what he's saying. This is how my adult personality was formed. 

大卫·贝尔：全书开篇，他就写下了最生动的其中一个故事。当他还是一个蹒跚学步的孩子时，护士因为小孩子的顽皮狠狠打了他的屁股。但是打屁股并没有获得护士希望的效果，反而令他兴奋，这符合他成年后对性的品位。这次经历让他明白，以某种施虐受虐的方式将快乐和痛苦联系起来，是他一生性品味的核心。这是他描述的众多童年故事中最精彩的一个，他也反复强调正是这些童年趣事建构了他成年后的个性。在书中他也不止一次提到他的青少年时期和成年早期，如何帮助建构了他之后的人格。

Zachary Davis: Rousseau wrote about the impacts of childhood on the adult personality in Confessions and Emile, both of which were hugely influential at the time. 

扎卡里·戴维斯：卢梭在《忏悔录》和《爱弥尔》中都写到了童年对成年人格的影响，这两本书在当时都具有深远的影响。

David Bell: So, you know, these two books by themselves have this enormous effect. But I think the Confessions is actually much more effective way of doing it, as it's told through the prism of Rousseau’s life itself, rather than doing it as the kind of abstract discussion of a of a character named Emile, who in the end is really something of a cipher, as he's only a kind of vessel for Rousseau's ideas. 

大卫·贝尔：是的，这两本书都产生了巨大的影响。 但我认为《忏悔录》的影响更为深刻，因为它是对卢梭自己生活的剖析，而不是对一个名叫爱弥尔的虚拟形象的描述，爱弥尔的形象只是卢梭思想的一种载体。

Zachary Davis: I'm curious to learn a little bit more from you, what childhood looked like in the 18th century? And then what changes maybe started to arise because of Rousseau's ideas about how important childhood is? 

扎卡里·戴维斯：我很想多了解一点，18 世纪的童年是什么样的？ 卢梭关于童年重要性的提示，带来了怎样的改变？

David Bell: In the upper class, again, childhood was really not taken very seriously so that, you know, really pretty much among anybody who could afford it, up until the late 18th century, children were put out to nurse almost immediately. So that once the baby was born, they were given to a wet nurse and often they wouldn't actually see their parents again for quite some time. There's a famous story, possibly apocryphal, but I think it's actually true about Tallyrand who was Napoleon's foreign minister and born into the high French nobility. So the story goes that at about, when he was about seven years old, his tutor, his childhood tutor took him to a grand home and there was a party going on. And the man took him inside and he was all dressed up for the occasion and took him to this very elegantly dressed couple. And the tutor said to the boy, he said, Monsieur Tallyrand, I have the pleasure to introduce you to your mother and father, whom he had really barely seen since his birth. And nobody saw anything unusual about this particularly. It didn't really matter. He was attached to his governess, to his nurse, to his tutor, but he barely knew his parents. 

大卫·贝尔：在上流社会，人们还是没有把童年经历当一回事。殷实的家庭通常在孩子出生后立刻将婴儿交给护理员或奶妈，婴儿通常在很长一段时间内不会见到自己的父母，这种情况一直延续到 18 世纪后期。有一个著名的故事，可能是杜撰的，但我认为是真实的。塔里朗是拿破仑的外交部长，出生于法国高级贵族家庭，在他7岁的时候，他的家庭教师带他去到一座豪宅，里面正在进行着盛大的派对。盛装出席的小塔里朗加入了派对，家庭教师带他来到一对穿戴华丽的夫妻面前并郑重地向他宣布，塔里朗先生，我非常高兴地向您介绍您的父亲和母亲。小塔里朗自出生起并没有见过自己的亲生父母，当时的人对此见怪不怪。在当时，婴儿出生后远离父母，和家庭教师、奶妈一起生活。

David Bell: But you also ask about the impact of Rousseau’s own work and there it was simply absolutely enormous. One of the most striking things is that Rousseau was strongly against the practice of putting children out to nurse, which in fact was definitely not a good practice whatsoever because it put the child at risk, particularly when in poorer families, the nurse maid might be, in fact, out of her own body, nursing as much as five, six, seven, eight, nine, 10 children at once so that the children definitely were not getting enough nourishment. 

大卫·贝尔：你刚刚也问到卢梭作品的影响力，那绝对是巨大的。 其中反响最激烈的一点，是卢梭强烈反对将孩子交给奶妈养育。将婴儿托付给奶妈绝对不是一个好办法，这将孩子置于巨大的危险之中。特别是在那些贫穷的家庭中，奶妈可能需要同时哺育五六七八个孩子，婴儿们根本无法获得足够的营养。

Zachary Davis: In poorer communities, this practice was also known as baby farming. It is estimated that roughly 80% of babies fed by an overworked wet nurse died in infancy.

扎卡里·戴维斯：在比较贫穷的社区里，这种做法也被称为婴儿养殖。 据估计，由过劳的奶妈喂养的婴儿中约有 80% 在婴儿时期死亡。

David Bell: Rousseau argued very strongly against the practice of putting children out to nurse and argued that mothers should nurse their own children. And this became almost immediately after the publication of Emile, a tremendous fad, not just a fad, but it became a sweeping practice across all of Europe. So that very soon it became seen as almost immoral to put your children out to nurse, when before it had been seen as absolutely natural. And it's a good example of the way how what is seen as natural can shift so quickly and so dramatically. And by the late 17 or in the early 1780s, even Queen Marie Antoinette of France was nursing her own children, which no queen of France had done for a very, very long time. So again, that's simply one example. And people began to, I mean, people began to copy Rousseau, you know, they began to take literally Rousseau's advice about childhood, about how to raise your children, about, you know, for example, exposing children to the natural world very early on.  Which is one of the key pieces of advice in Emile, so on and so forth. So, the book, his ideas had a tremendous impact long before the publication of the Confessions I should say. 

大卫·贝尔：卢梭强烈反对将孩子交给奶妈养育的做法，并认为母亲应该亲自喂养自己的孩子。他的这一提倡在《爱弥尔》出版后立即成为一种巨大的时尚，席卷整个欧洲。所以很快将小孩送给奶妈喂养被视为不道德，而在不久之前，这还被认为是很正常的做法。这其实是一个很好的例子，说明在当时被视为正常的行为可以如此迅速地被反转。 17 世纪末或17世纪80年代初，即使是法国王后玛丽·安托瓦内特，也在亲自喂养自己的孩子，在之前很长一段时间内，没有法国王后如此做过。 人们开始接受卢梭的提议，接受卢梭关于重视童年和抚养孩子的建议。比如《爱弥尔》中卢梭核心的观点之一，建议让孩子更早地接触自然世界。所以可以说在《忏悔录》面世之前，卢梭的思想已经产生了非常深刻的社会影响。

Zachary Davis: Related to that, it's this idea that children need to be protected because the influence matters so much. So I could imagine there must have been some greater emphasis on positive influencing of the child, and then a greater emphasis on trying to protect from abuse or or, you know, dangers and well of all kinds 

扎卡里·戴维斯：由此可以引申出卢梭的另一个观点，由于外部环境会造成深刻的影响，因此他认为儿童需要受到保护。 我可以想象他一定也会强调要对孩子带来更积极的影响，强调保护孩子远离虐待或各种危险。

David Bell: The idea that Rousseau repeatedly says in Emile,giving children as natural upbringing as possible so that they're protected, above all, from the evil effects of society. And you can see this all over the 18th century. I mean, even, you know, in 18th century schools in Paris, for instance, there was a very heavy discipline put in place even well before Rousseau even to designed to keep keep the young children from being exposed to bad influences such as gambling, prostitution, drinking with the usual lack of success that these kind of tactics have. But, so always a kind of back and forth. But earlier in the 18th century, it was simply keeping the children from sin. And after Rousseau it's also, the emphasis is more protecting them from things that could harm their development.

大卫·贝尔：卢梭在《爱弥尔》中反复提到，尽可能让孩子自然成长，免受社会的邪恶影响。 你可以在整个 18 世纪看到这一点的影响。 在卢梭的倡议面世之前，巴黎的学校就制定了非常严厉的纪律，旨在防止年幼的孩子受到赌博、卖淫、酗酒的不良影响。这些守则统统没有奏效。在 18 世纪早期，纪律只是让孩子们远离罪恶，但卢梭更强调保护孩子，远离对他们未来发展造成伤害的事物。

Zachary Davis: So the model of self formation, does Rousseau enter in a more imminent story about how humans are formed? So, and what I'm wondering is the pre-Rousseau idea that our souls or our character are basically imprinted by God and there's no real way to alter that? Whereas after Rousseau, a greater sense that the world can shape us according to you, you know, random events or by care by the parents and the community?

扎卡里·戴维斯：关于自我建构的概念，卢梭是否有进一步的阐述？ 在卢梭之前，大家可能都认同我们的人格基本由上帝烙印并无法改变？而在卢梭之后，更多人认同人的个性由外部环境、随机事件、父母和邻里的关爱所塑造。

David Bell: Well, I'd say that in some ways Rousseau is part of a much larger shift in Western culture. Certainly part of this goes back to the late 17th century. It goes back to the idea that the mind is a blank slate at birth that is shaped by sense impressions. So in that sense, he's part of something much larger there. And yet, this notion of the mind is a blank slate still managed to coexist in a lot of ways with Christian doctrine, Christian belief. But Rousseau marks a really strong break with Christianity, particularly with the notion of human beings as being sinful from birth and having this potential for sin in them. Rousseau is absolutely against this.  

大卫·贝尔：在某些方面，卢梭的观念是更宏观的西方文化转变的一部分。 这种转变可以追溯到 17 世纪后期，当时的观点认同人的思想在出生时是白纸一张，由人的感官逐渐塑造。 这么看来，卢梭是整个文化转变的其中一部分。 这种思想在很长一段时间内与基督教教义、基督教信仰共存。 卢梭的思想标志着与基督教思想的真正决裂，尤其对基督教的原罪说以及人类本来就潜藏犯罪的可能，卢梭坚决反对。

Zachary Davis: Rousseau outlined his beliefs about the human state of nature in his 1755 work, Discourse on Inequality. 

扎卡里·戴维斯：卢梭在他 1755 年的著作《论人类不平等的起源》中概述了他对人的自然状态的理念。

David Bell: What Rousseau says very clearly in this book is that human beings are born with two principal impulses. One is an impulse towards pure self-preservation, which is neither good nor bad. It's neither evil nor good, nor sinful nor innocent, it's simply there. And then they're born with a natural sense of compassion towards their fellows. And that's it. But then, he traces the evolution of human species. And as he does, he says, well, a capacity for evil develops, but it develops as a result of society. It develops as a result of the pressures put on by society. It develops as a result of human inequality. And it develops as a result of what he calls amour-propre, by which he means the way that in entering into society, humans come to worry about the impression they're making and other people, they come to see themselves through the eyes of others. They start living for others rather than living for themselves. And that this induces them to all sorts of bad behavior. 

大卫·贝尔：卢梭在这本书中非常明确地指出，人生来拥有两种本能的冲动，其一是纯粹的自我保护的冲动。这种冲动既不邪恶也不善良，既不罪恶也不无辜，只是人生而拥有的冲动。另一种与生俱来的冲动是对伙伴的同情。他追踪人类的进化路径。卢梭提出，有一股邪恶的力量，伴随着社会的发展而积聚起来，在社会的施压下发展起来。 这是人类的不平等导致的结果。卢梭还提出了“自尊”的概念。在进入社会后，人类为自己给他人留下的印象而担忧，通过别人的眼睛审视自己，更多地为别人而非自己而活。这些诱发了种种恶行的产生。

David Bell: So this is very much at odds with Christian doctrine. And Rousseau's Confessions is in many ways a kind of illustration of the point by looking at his life. Because well, as I said, he says very clearly at the beginning that this will be a no holds barred absolutely unsparing look at my own life and I will give you the good with the bad. But when it comes to explaining why he acts in a bad way, it's not because he's sinful. It's not because he has sinful impulses. It's not because of any kind of charnel nature in him. It's not because of bad impulses and drives. It's because of societies, because of what society makes him. Everything that is bad in him is the product of society. And in that sense, again, it's an incredibly modern sensibility. It’s a very anti-Christian sensibility in a lot of ways. But it is one which I think we, we almost take for granted these days that, you know, that the evil comes from the meilleurs in which we're raised, and comes from the social pressures on us. And that's pure Rousseau. He's not the only person to say this, but he's certainly the most influential person to say this in the 18th century. And again, the Confessions really are a kind of illustration of this. 

大卫·贝尔：这与基督教教义大相径庭。卢梭的《忏悔录》，在很大程度上，也是通过对自己人生的反思来验证这一观点。他在《忏悔录》写道“我要把一个人的真实面目赤裸裸地揭露在世人面前，无论善恶。对于恶行产生的原因，他解释道这不是因为他罪恶，不是因为他有罪念，不是因为他阴暗的本性，不是因为任何恶的驱动。 是因为社会，是社会造就了恶行。人性中的恶都是社会的产物。这在当时是一种令人难以置信的前沿思想，在很多方面与基督教义相悖。 我们现在都认同，人性中的恶来自成长的环境，来自社会施加的压力。 这就是卢梭的说法。他不是唯一持有类似论调的人，但他无疑是 18 世纪对这一观念的传播起最大作用的思想家。 

Zachary Davis: Rousseau was situated in the middle of what later became known as the European Enlightenment. This philosophical and intellectual movement sought truth through skepticism, reason and the sciences. 

扎卡里·戴维斯：卢梭所处的时代，是欧洲启蒙运动的中间阶段，当时的哲学家、思想家秉承批判、理性和科学的精神寻求真理。

Zachary Davis: Rousseau’s works and ideas were influential in his own time and continued to be taken up after his death. He inspired many writers, thinkers, and artists in a 19th century movement known as Romanticism. This movement focused on individualism and an emphasis on emotion. 

扎卡里·戴维斯：卢梭的作品和思想在他所处的年代具有非凡的影响力，他的影响力也没有因为他的离世而消散。 许多19 世纪浪漫主义作家、思想家和艺术家，都受到卢梭的启发，强调对个体特性和情感的关注。

David Bell: Certainly by the turn of the 19th century. Any, pretty much anybody who we consider a romantic author is reading Rousseau and is inspired by Rousseau. And in that sense, I mean, to the extent that we're talking about a romantic movement, it very explicitly has a debt to Rousseau, which its leading authors were very eager to acknowledge.

大卫·贝尔：在18、19世纪更迭之际，几乎每一位浪漫主义作家都在阅读卢梭的作品，并受到他的启发。 所以，是不是可以说浪漫主义浪潮萌芽于卢梭？很多浪漫主义作家也认同这一点。

Zachary Davis: You know, I can imagine a lot of 17th century, 18th century Christians, the purpose of life was wrapped up in ideas of Christian salvation. Rousseau had a different view of what life's purpose and meaning was about. Maybe more about this world. Is that right?

扎卡里·戴维斯：17、18 世纪，基督教义中的救赎主导了很多基督教徒生活的目的。 卢梭对生命的目的和意义有不同的解读，他认为生命的意义和目的是为了活在这个世界上，对吗？

David Bell: I think that most of his work is a break with this and a break so deep that, in fact, he never fully acknowledges that himself, which is to say that the purpose of living is to to live in this world. In his political writings, particularly the Social Contract, he says the way to be fully to live a full life in this world is through the state and through citizenship. And so, for instance, at the end of the book, the Social Contract, even when he's talking about, you know, the pure religion of the gospel, he says, you know, in a state that functions you don't really want Christianity because Christianity points people towards the world to come. It says you shouldn't really care about this world, you should just care about reaching heaven. And he says if you want to have a state that works, you can have people living like this. You need a state where people are devoted to the state. And so for that, you need a religion which actually makes them worship the state quite literally the way that the Romans did.

大卫·贝尔：我认为他大部分的作品并不认同基督教的教义。不过，他自己从未承认自己希望背离基督教。他只是觉得生活的目的是为了生活在这个世界上。卢梭在自己的政治著作，尤其是《社会契约论》中，他说在这个世界上充分享受生命的方法是建立国家和公民身份。在《社会契约论》的结尾，卢梭写道，如果你想一个国家有效运转，你不需要《福音书》上的基督教，因为它只关心天上的事物，而不考虑在世的成功。想要一个国家有效运转，你需要一种宗教，让人民效忠于国家，像罗马人一般崇拜自己的国家。

David Bell: So first, there is the citizenship and living for the state, for living for others, if you want to put it that way. Then there at the beginning of Emile the book, the rights called Emile, very significantly he says, you know, when you're raising a child, you have really two choices. You can raise a child to be a citizen or you can raise him. It's always a boy. You can raise him to be a man. You can't do both. You have to choose. When he says raising a man, he actually means somebody who's really kind of in tune with nature, who's in tune with his natural human impulses. But in the Confessions, Russoeau gives us a third option, which is an individual who's really true to himself, who is fully realized in the sense of taking his own, his own individual character, his own individual tastes and predilections, choices, and really fully realizing them fully being a fully creative, original individual. And that's what is really sketched out in the Confessions. And that process is by no means an easy one. It's an agonistic one in the full sense, because, of course, in order to do this, you have to struggle against society. You have to struggle against what society is trying to turn you into, which is something twisted and bad and evil. So to be a fully realized individual, it's not simply a matter of sort of working to develop one's self to sort of write one's poetry or sing one's songs or whatever to go for long walks in the mountains the way a lot of the romantics assumed this would be the case. You actually have to fight. You have to fight to free oneself from everything that society is trying to enslave you.

大卫·贝尔：在《爱弥尔》开篇，卢梭写道如果你想养育一个孩子，你有两种选择，将他抚养成公民或者抚养成人，不能两者兼得，必须做出选择。这里说的的抚养成人，是指保有原始冲动的天然的人。在《忏悔录》中，卢梭给了我们第三个选项，成为本真的自我，完全释放个性、品味和偏好的本我，成为一个鲜活的、有个性的个体。这是卢梭在《忏悔录》中所表达的。 但成为本我绝非易事， 你需要与社会抗争，防止社会将你塑造成为一个扭曲的、邪恶的人。发现本我的过程，不像浪漫主义者设想的那般简单，书写诗歌或者在山间漫步，你必须战斗，摆脱社会对你的奴役。

Zachary Davis: Rousseau’s vision for society was influenced by the French philosopher Montesquieu.

扎卡里·戴维斯：卢梭对社会的看法受到法国哲学家孟德斯鸠的影响。

David Bell: So Montesquieu particularly takes very seriously the idea of mankind as a social animal. Montesquieu and many of the authors of the period actually were responsible for inventing the notion of the modern notion of society. I mean, again it's one of these notions that we take for granted almost entirely today, that there is such a thing that we call society, which is separate from government, which is separate from the state, which is a kind of, you know, sort of fundamental ground on which human existence takes place. And that is separate from politics. And that very notion of society didn't really exist before the late 17th, early 18th century. People used the word society or civil society, but they basically meant government by it, they meant state by it. They didn't separate these things. 

大卫·贝尔：孟德斯鸠特别强调人类作为社会动物的观点。 孟德斯鸠和那个时期的许多思想家定义了现代社会的概念。 社会的概念在今天习以为常，社会独立于政府，独立于国家，也独立于政治，为人类生存提供了基础。在 17 世纪末、18 世纪初之前，这种社会的概念并不真正存在。 人们使用社会或公民社会这个词，但他们基本上指的是政府，指的是国家。 他们没有把这些概念区分开来。

Zachary Davis: Montesquieu was part of a movement of thinkers who viewed society as something separate from the government. He saw it as being influenced by things like tradition, history, and interactions with other societies. 

扎卡里·戴维斯：孟德斯鸠是这一思潮的推动者之一，他们将社会与政府区分开来。 他认为社会受到传统、历史以及与其他社会互动的影响。

David Bell: They see it as something which is potentially very good. They saw their own government as potentially, they saw the French government certainly as quite destructive and bad, as despotic as potentially despotic. But society was something which had its own dynamic. It had its own rules. It had its own existence and could be something really where people lived and where people could be most fully developed. So if in Montesquieu’s work, as in Voltaire's work, you really are a fully developed individual only by living through society。 They both put a great deal of emphasis on what they call sociability, which is the ability to live in harmony with other human beings through conversation, through wit, through constant interchange and interaction.  

大卫·贝尔：他们认为社会可能会有非常正面的效用，他们认为法国政府和专制制度一样有害。 但社会是有自己的动态、规则和存在。社会是人生活的基础，也是人的个性得以发掘的基础。 在孟德斯鸠和伏尔泰的作品中，只有在社会中生活过，你才能真正成为一个完全发展的个体。 他们都非常强调社交能力，即通过对话、交流和互动与他人和谐相处的能力。

Zachary Davis: Rousseau agreed that society and government were separate, but disagreed with Montesquieu on the belief that society was good. He often rebelled against society because he thought it exploited its citizens. Rousseau and Montesquieu also disagreed on the role women should play in society. Montesquieu believed women were required for a good, balanced, and elegant society. Rousseau believed in a more domestic role for women. 

扎卡里·戴维斯：卢梭认同社会和政府是分开的，但不认同孟德斯鸠对社会良性的判断。 他经常反抗社会，因为他认为社会剥削了公民。 卢梭和孟德斯鸠对女性在社会中应该扮演的角色也存在分歧。 孟德斯鸠认为，良性、均衡和优雅的社会需要女性。 而卢梭认为女性应该更多承担家庭责任。

David Bell: Rousseau really believed that women should be, you know, that they didn't have any kind of public role whatsoever. And, you know, it's interesting because in the Confessions he spends a great deal of time, of course, talking about women and he doesn't really stick to his own preaching in the Confessions. 

大卫·贝尔：卢梭相信女性不应该承担任何公共责任。 他在《忏悔录》中花了大量笔墨谈论女人，但他并没有真正贯彻自己在《忏悔录》中的主张。

Zachary Davis: He is suspicious of society and worries about the way it corrupts. How does he teach this idea of personal independence from society? 

扎卡里·戴维斯：他对社会持怀疑态度并担心社会对人的腐蚀作用，他是如何论证个人独立于社会的观点的？

David Bell: Ah, this is where often he had, you know, such a great influence that it was in part through advocating a kind of asceticism. So, and not taking handouts. So Rousseau famously gets involved in one of the great quarrels of the 18th century, one of the great intellectual quarrels, and he gets involved with his former friend, his ex-friend, David Hume, the Scottish philosopher. So Rousseau is chased out of Switzerland because of the things he's written, because, of course, a lot of the things he's written don't please the authorities that don't please the authorities in France. They don't please the authorities in Switzerland. He goes back and forth between France and Switzerland, between formal Catholicism and formal Protestantism during his lifetime. 

大卫·贝尔：这又一次彰显了卢梭非常的影响力。一方面，他主张禁欲主义，不接受施舍。卢梭与他之前的挚友苏格兰哲学家大卫·休谟，进行了18 世纪最伟大的争论和思辨。 卢梭因为他写下的观点被逐出瑞士，他写的很多内容无法取悦法国当局，也无法取悦瑞士政府。 所以他的一生反复在法国和瑞士之间穿梭，在天主教和新教之间穿梭。

Zachary Davis: By the mid 1760s, Rousseau was driven from his home in Switzerland by an angry mob. He fled to England to stay with his friend David Hume.  

扎卡里·戴维斯：17世纪60 年代中期，卢梭被愤怒的暴徒赶出了他在瑞士的家。 他逃到英国和他的朋友大卫·休谟呆在一起。

David Bell: And then David Hume very kindly arranges for Rousseau to receive a kind of stipend from a wealthy English nobleman. And Rousseau says, you Judas, you've betrayed me. You're trying to enslave me. You're making me dependent. And it's not the first time that this happens either. In the Confessions, he tells another story about how I mean, one of the things he does in his career is he actually writes music and he writes operas. And while he starts out not being able to to read music at all and starts out as somebody is trying to teach music without actually knowing it. By the time he's in his 40s, he's very good at it. And he writes an opera which is put on at Versailles and it pleases the king. It's put on before the king of France and the king likes it. And the king then, as the king would do in these circumstances, offered Rousseau a stipend and said, why did you become a kind of paid affiliate of the court? And you can write your operas and we'll give you a living. And Rousseau and Rousseau's friend Diderot says, this is great. You're all taken care of. You don't have anything to worry about it. Congratulations. 

大卫·贝尔：大卫·休谟帮助卢梭从一位富有的英国贵族那里得到一笔接济。 卢梭说，你这个叛徒，你背叛了我，你在试图奴役我，让我依赖你。在《忏悔录》里，卢梭还记录下另一个故事。卢梭其实还是一位音乐家、歌剧作家。虽然他一开始完全不懂音乐，并且在自己不懂音乐的前提下还尝试教别人音乐，但他40岁后已经是一位音乐高手了。他写了一部歌剧在凡尔赛宫上演，当时的法国国王非常喜欢。国王欣然邀请他加入皇宫乐队，让他继续写歌剧并获得报酬。卢梭的朋友狄德罗恭喜了卢梭，他觉得这是一个绝佳的机会，卢梭不需要犹豫。

David Bell: And Rousseau says, I thought you were my friend. But don't you see that they're simply trying to enslave me? And so Rousseau at least claims to not take any handouts at all. Now, in fact, he takes lots of handouts from wealthy women and he lives in their houses. He accepts homes from them. He accepts lots of things from them. But he always says, I'm not taking any handouts. And he lives very and he actually lives very simply for much of his life, particularly when he's in France. 

大卫·贝尔：但卢梭反驳到，我以为你是我的朋友，你没认识到他们只是想奴役我吗？ 所以卢梭坚持了不受施舍的初衷。 但现在他接受贵妇的接济，住在她们家里。他依然坚持说，我不拿接受任何施舍。 他一生中大部分时间都过得很清贫，尤其是在法国的时候。

Zachary Davis: Rousseau earned a living by copying sheet music by hand. Although there were printing presses that could also copy the music, if you only need a couple of copies it was often cheaper to pay someone to do it by hand. 

扎卡里·戴维斯：卢梭靠手抄乐谱谋生。 虽然当时也有印刷机，也可以复制乐谱，但如果只是需要几份副本，请人手抄写通常会更便宜。

David Bell: And he argued that this is what you have to do. You have to live an ascetic life. You have to resist the sort of embellishments of society. You have to resist taking anything from anybody, because as soon as you take something from somebody, they have power over you. As soon as you accept a stipend, you have to do what they want. Later in life, he goes to live in these fairly remote rural areas. He spends his time walking in nature, walking through the mountains, walking through the woods, very much in isolation. So as he gets older, he says, yes, you have to really isolate yourself entirely from society.

大卫·贝尔：他认为这是必须做的。 你必须过节制地生活，抵抗社会花红酒绿的诱惑。要避免接受别人的给予，因为一旦你伸了手，他们就有权力约束你的言行，你必须做他们想要你做的事。卢梭在晚年住在非常偏远的农村地区。 绝大部分的时间里，他行走在大自然，行走在山岳森林间，过着与世隔绝的生活。 他说，随着年龄的增长，您必须真正将自己与社会完全隔离开来。

Zachary Davis: Rousseau was a firm believer in living for yourself. Going back to his earliest works on child raising, he believed that people are born good, and then corrupted by society. He believed that part of how society corrupts people is by forcing them to live as others want them to live. For him, this included taking handouts and stipends from wealthy noblemen and even the king. 

扎卡里·戴维斯：卢梭坚信要为自己而活。说回他早期关于孩子养育的作品，他认为人性本善良却被社会腐化。 他认为社会腐化人的方法之一，便是强迫他们按照别人期盼的方式来生活。 对他来说，这包括从富有的贵族甚至国王那里获得施舍和津贴。

Zachary Davis: According to Rousseau, when you live as others want you to live, you’re not being true to yourself and this sets up a psychological tension that harms your psyche. Rousseau felt this tension at various points throughout his life. Confessions in part, was his attempt to try to uncover his true nature, the nature that got corrupted by society. For him, writing was a way to access the individual psyche.    

扎卡里·戴维斯：卢梭认为，当你照着别人希望的方式生活时，你无法直面自己的个性，这会造成心理上的紧张，继而伤害自我认知。 卢梭在他一生的不同阶段都感受到了这种紧张。 《忏悔录》中就有一部分，他试图揭示自己的真实本性，被社会腐化了的本性。 对他而言，写作是一种直面自我的方式。

David Bell: What he makes very clear in all of his writing is that the writing itself is a product of his own individual psyche. That the writing itself, and this is something, again, which we take absolutely for granted these days. I mean, every single creative writing class that has ever been started with, of course, the admonition to write what you know, right? To write from yourself. And we can blame this on Rousseau I think. I mean Montesquieu would never have said just write what you know. What? Who cares about what I know, right? I mean you write what's interesting, right. You write out of your imagination. You don't write out of your experience. But Rousseau really believes that writing is deeply indebted to the personality of the author, which, again, is something we take wholly for granted today, and that somebody like Montesquieu would have seen as actually a somewhat strange and almost unintelligible idea; that the writing reflects the inner intimate personality of the author. That‘s yet another thing. And that's something which Rousseau makes very clear in his Confessions when he describes his own writings. And because he says these own writings come out of the deepest part of my soul.

大卫·贝尔：卢梭在他的所有作品中都明确表示，写作是自我内心的映射。每一个作家在创作生涯的起点，都是从自己最熟悉的事物，从自己着笔。我想我们可以把这归咎于卢梭。孟德斯鸠从来没有说过只写你知道的内容，谁会关心一个作家知道些什么呢？作品更应该聚焦什么是有趣的，作家表达的是自己的想象而非经验。但是卢梭认为写作应该从作者的个性出发。这个观念在今天稀疏平常但在当时被大多数人，包括孟德斯鸠，视为怪异的、不可理解的想法。卢梭说过他的作品都源自他的灵魂深处。

Zachary Davis: In his interest in childhood development, he seems to anticipate or you know, pre-date Freud. Are there other aspects of Rousseau's work that influence the development of psychology and thinking about the world through psychological lenses?

扎卡里·戴维斯：卢梭甚至早于弗洛伊德，关心童年的培养。卢梭的作品是如何影响心理学的发展的？是哪些部分启发了后人要通过心理的视角思考世界？

David Bell: I mean, besides the emphasis on childhood, I think the whole notion on, of, of self realisation clearly is enormously important for our modern notions of psychology. I mean, so much the notion, which is so central to the Freudian analysis in the sense that we have to in some way overcome the experiences which have influenced us in the wrong way, right? That's also, in a way, pure Rousseau. I mean, Rousseau of course, didn't have a scientific method for doing this. And his only method for overcoming these things was simply through sheer willpower of his own willpower. He did not through any sort of scientific process of analysis the way Freud would have said. So that's very different, of course. He is an intensely psychological writer. I mean, everything is attuned, everything he writes is, in a sense, is concerned with the individual psyche, with the development of the mind. But not just with the development of the mind, but with the development of the personality, with the development of personality traits and with the idea that there are healthy and unhealthy traits, pathological and non pathological traits, and that you have to try to work to raise children and then to treat adults in such a way that you will be fostering the development of the healthy traits and stifling the development of the unhealthy ones. So that is I think all of that is, makes him one of the great authors of modern psychology and of the way we think about the mind really today, the way we think about personalities.

大卫·贝尔：除了对童年的强调，整个自我觉醒的概念都对现代心理学有重要作用。这个概念是弗洛伊德分析法的核心，我们需要避免某些经历，对我们产生不良影响。这不就是卢梭的理念吗? 卢梭并没有系统的方法来避免不良影响，他唯一的方法就是意志力。和弗洛伊德不同，卢梭并没有提出任何科学系统的分析方法。卢梭是纯粹的心理学作家。我的意思是，他的所有作品都在关注个体心智的发展。也不仅仅是心智的发展，是人格的发展。人格会发展出或健康或不良的特质，必须在养育孩子或者对待成人时采用合适的方法，促进健康特质的发展，抑制不良特质的产生。这是我认为卢梭之所以成为卢梭的原因，他是现代心理学最伟大的作家之一，定义了我们理解个体，理解个性的方法。

Zachary Davis: Rousseau’s footprint on our culture can often go undetected because the things he influenced are so integral to modern life, that we don’t think twice about them. He set the stage for how we raise children today, how we understand personality development, and the ideal of living fully for oneself. When you know where to look, it can be hard to imagine modern society without Rousseau's influence.  

扎卡里·戴维斯：卢梭对我们文化的影响通常不被发现，因为他的影响早已渗透进现代文明的方方面面，以至于我们从不会思考这些认知的起源。 他为我们今天如何养育孩子、如何理解个性发展以及如何活出本我提供了基础。 很难想象，如果没有卢梭，现代生活会是怎样。

Zachary Davis: Writ Large is a production of Ximalaya. Writ Large is produced by Jack Pombriant and me, Zachary Davis, with help from Ariel Liu, Wendy Wu, and Monica Zhang. Our theme song is by Ian Coss. Don’t miss an episode. Subscribe today in the Ximalaya app. Thanks for listening. See you next time.

扎卡里·戴维斯：本节目由喜马拉雅独家制作播出。感谢您的收听，我们下期再见！