【英文原声版30】Samuel Moyn：War and Peace

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How did Tolstoy become a non-violent anarchist?

托尔斯泰如何变成了一个反暴力的无政府主义者？

Zachary Davis: Leo Tolstoy is considered one of the greatest authors of all time. He wrote some of the most well-known works of literature in the 19th and 20th centuries. His works demonstrated that the novel could exist beyond just entertainment, and be used as a tool for understanding people and expanding our tolerance of others.

扎卡里·戴维斯：列夫·托尔斯泰被视为有史以来最伟大的作家之一。19、20世纪，他创作了一些著名的文学作品。他的作品证明了小说不仅可以用于消遣，还能帮助我们了解人类，更加宽以待人。

Samuel Moyn: I was really brought back to him when I commenced my current project about the regulation of war, because I knew that there was a moment in his best-known novel—some people think the greatest novel ever written—War and Peace, in which one of his main characters attacks the very idea of regulating war.

塞缪尔·莫恩：当我开始着手关于战争法规的研究项目时，我不由地回想起了托尔斯泰。他最著名的小说《战争与和平》被一些人看作有史以来最伟大的小说。小说中有一幕便是几个主人公在抨击战争法规。

Zachary Davis: Professor Samuel Moyn teaches history and law at Yale University.

扎卡里·戴维斯：塞缪尔·莫恩教授在耶鲁大学教历史和法律。

Samuel Moyn: Tolstoy really became world famous, not solely as a novelist, but as a kind of Christian sage. And his arguments about the regulation of war kind of continue into that later period.

塞缪尔·莫恩：托尔斯泰不仅是举世闻名的小说家，还是举世闻名的信仰基督教的圣贤。他关于战争法规的观点一直影响着后世。

Zachary Davis: Tolstoy is remembered not only for his novels, but also for his nonviolent pacifism. He introduced ideas in War and Peace that helped inspire a worldwide push for peace in the early 20th century.

扎卡里·戴维斯：托尔斯泰不仅以其小说而闻名，还以其非暴力和平主义的立场而被人们铭记。他在《战争与和平》中提出了一些观点，这些观点在20世纪早期激励了全世界人们努力实现和平。

Samuel Moyn: And arguably, you know, Tolstoy, who had a huge influence as a pacifist, even has an influence amongst those who don't take up his own ethics, but rather decide that they're going to, you know, in this world, hope not hold out for, you know, utopia, but kind of work to pressure states.

塞缪尔·莫恩：作为和平主义者，托尔斯泰极具影响力，甚至还深深地影响到那些不赞同他的人。这些人打算做的并不是想要努力构建一个乌托邦，而是为了向政府施压。

Samuel Moyn: And that has a huge effect. It doesn't seem like it, obviously, because World War One and Two are both fought. But it's kind of amazing in world historical terms that after both of these wars, you have a mass public that demands peace, and statesmen all talk endlessly of how they're going to provide it. And ultimately, we have a United Nations Charter that, at least in theory, makes aggressive war illegal, which had never been the case in the world history.

塞缪尔·莫恩：这会带来巨大的影响。虽然看似并没有什么影响，毕竟后来还是爆发了一战和二战。但回顾世界历史，我们会发现两次世界大战后，民众开始渴望和平，政治家也不断许诺将维护和平。最终各国签署了《联合国宪章》，在理论层面将侵略战争定性为违法行为，这在世界史上是前所未有的。

Zachary Davis: Welcome to Writ Large, a podcast about how books change the world. I’m Zachary Davis. In each episode, I talk with one of the world’s leading scholars about one book that changed the course of history. For this episode, I sat down with Professor Samuel Moyn to discuss War and Peace.

扎卡里·戴维斯：欢迎收听：100本改变你和世界的书，在这里我们为大家讲述改变世界的书籍。我是扎卡里·戴维斯。每一集，我都会和一位世界顶尖学者探讨一本影响历史进程的书。在本集，我和塞缪尔·莫恩教授一起讨论《战争与和平》。

Zachary Davis: So let's talk about Tolstoy's life. What were the circumstances of his birth and what do we know about his development as a writer and thinker?

扎卡里·戴维斯：我们来谈谈托尔斯泰的生平经历吧。他生前有哪些经历？作为作家与思想家，他有哪些贡献？

Samuel Moyn: Well, he had an enormously interesting and above all long life. He really lived for the bulk of the 19th century, and kind of was omnipresent in Russian culture after the 1850s. He was born in 1828 and died in 1910. And he was an aristocrat. So he was a count. He had a big estate where especially in his middle age and later he spent all of his time, south of Moscow.

塞缪尔·莫恩：他很长寿，一生经历也很丰富。他经历了19世纪的大部分时期，19世纪后半叶，俄国文坛处处可见他的影响力。他于1828年出生，于1910年去世。他出生于贵族家庭，有着伯爵的头衔。他在莫斯科南部有一座大庄园，中年和晚年的大部分时间，他都在那儿度过。

Zachary Davis: Tolstoy grew up on this estate and later inherited it from his parents who both died when he was a child. He studied law at Kazan University but dropped out halfway through. He spent a couple years in Moscow, Tula, and Saint Petersburg gambling and drinking. In his mid-20s, Tolstoy joined the Russian army as an artillery officer and served in the Crimean War.

扎卡里·戴维斯：托尔斯泰在这个庄园长大，后来从父母那儿继承了庄园。他的父母在他小时候便去世了。他后来去喀山大学学习法律，但中途退了学，之后在莫斯科、图拉和圣彼得堡混了几年，成天酗酒赌博。二十多岁时去俄国军队服役，担任炮兵军官并参加了克里米亚战争。

Samuel Moyn: He became very famous as a literary figure in Russia for writing some kind of fictionalized firsthand accounts of a siege during the Crimean War on the Crimean Peninsula in a place called Sevastopol.

塞缪尔·莫恩：他以克里米亚战争期间，在克里米亚半岛塞瓦斯托波尔的一次围攻经历为基础，创作了一部虚构小说。这部小说让他享誉俄罗斯文坛。

Zachary Davis: He went to Europe twice during the war. On his second trip, he met influential figures such as the writer Victor Hugo and the French anarchist Pierre-Joseph Proudhon. He also witnessed some horrific events he witnessed, including a public execution in Paris. This was a turning point for him. After this event, he began to see government as a conspiracy designed to exploit and corrupt its citizens. From that moment onward, he vowed never to serve any government again. These experiences were hugely influential for young Tolstoy. They transformed him from a privileged, aristocratic author to a non-violent anarchist.

扎卡里·戴维斯：战争期间他两次去往欧洲。第二次的时候，他遇到了几位颇有影响力的人物，如作家维克多·雨果和法国无政府主义者彼埃尔-约瑟夫·蒲鲁东。他还目睹了一些令人震惊的事情，包括巴黎的一起公开处刑。这让他的思想发生了极大的转变。这件事之后，他开始将政府看作剥削、腐化公民的阴谋之地。从那一刻起，他发誓再也不效忠于任何政府。这些经历极大地影响了年轻的托尔斯泰，让他从一个养尊处优的贵族作家变成了一个主张非暴力的无政府主义者。

Should we take prisoners or kill them all?

要收容俘虏还是把他们杀光？

Samuel Moyn: And actually that's the moment when he first begins to worry about the idea of making war more humane.

塞缪尔·莫恩：实际上，那时候他便开始担心让战争人性化的问题。

Zachary Davis: This idea stayed with Tolstoy until the end of his life. He illustrates it in his famous 1867 novel War and Peace.

扎卡里·戴维斯：托尔斯泰去世前一直在思考这个问题，他在1869年出版的著名小说《战争与和平》中探讨了这一点。

Samuel Moyn: At its core, War and Peace is a story about aristocrats and the Russian people experiencing the Napoleonic invasions of their homeland. And it's a kind of nationalist book because it's an account of how Napoleon is defeated by the genius of the Russian people, more so than by the aristocrats and even the tsar who lead the country.

塞缪尔·莫恩：《战争与和平》的核心内容是俄国贵族与民众如何抵御拿破仑入侵。这本书洋溢着家国情怀，讲述了拿破仑如何败于俄国民众的英勇才智，而不是败于俄国贵族与沙皇之手。

Zachary Davis: The novel focuses on France’s invasion of Russia in 1812 led by Napoleon Bonaparte.

扎卡里·戴维斯：小说聚焦于1812年法国皇帝拿破仑·波拿巴对俄国的侵略战争。

Samuel Moyn: It's of course, told through a series of aristocratic characters. And maybe the most important three are Andrei who's a prince, and Pierre Bezukhov who is probably the kind of implicit hero. And both of them are in love at various points with Natasha, who has a fascinating kind of spiritual and emotional trajectory of her own. There are hundreds of characters in the novel, and the backdrop of what was then world history, the biggest events in world history, and kind of the resolution of history and one direction rather than the other.

塞缪尔·莫恩：当然，故事还是围绕着贵族们的经历展开的。其中最重要的三个人物是安德烈、彼埃尔·别祖霍夫和娜塔莎。安德烈是一位青年公爵，而彼埃尔是一位幕后英雄。他俩先后爱上了娜塔莎，这位贵族小姐有着迷人的性情和感情经历。小说中描绘了数百个人物，以世界史上的重大事件为背景，展现了历史大势是如何导向一方而非另一方。

Zachary Davis: There is one passage in particular where Tolstoy makes his worries about humane war clear.

扎卡里·戴维斯：借由小说中的一段对话，托尔斯泰表明了自己对人道主义战争的担忧。

Samuel Moyn: The passage occurs the evening before the great battle during the campaign of 1812 when Napoleon is pushing it to the east. The battle takes place at a place called Borodino and Prince Andrei is, you know, talking with Pierre Bezukhov the evening before about, you know, how to think about what's coming in their lives.

塞缪尔·莫恩：这段对话发生在1812年大战的前夜，当时拿破仑正向东进军。战役发生在博罗蒂诺。大战的前一天晚上，安德烈公爵和彼埃尔·别祖霍夫一起设想未来。

Samuel Moyn: Pierre asks Andrei whether he thinks the battle will be won tomorrow. “Yes, yes,” Prince Andre said distractedly, “One thing I would do if I had power, I would not take prisoners. What are prisoners at chivalry? The French devastated my home and are on their way to devastate Moscow and they've offended me and offend me every second. They're my enemies. They're all criminals to my mind. They must be executed if they're my enemies. They can't be friends.” “Yes, yes,” said Pierre, gazing at Prince Andre with flashing eyes, “I agree with you completely. Take no prisoners.”

塞缪尔·莫恩：彼埃尔问安德烈，觉得明天的战役是否会赢。安德烈心不在焉地回答：“会的。我要是有权，一定不会收俘虏。跟俘虏讲什么骑士精神？法国人毁了我的家园，现在又要毁了莫斯科。他们触怒了我，每分每秒都在触怒我。他们是我的仇敌，在我看来他们都罪大恶极。对待仇敌那就必须杀死他们，不能把他们当朋友。”彼埃尔目光炯炯地看着安德烈，说道：“对，我完全赞同，不要收俘虏。”

Samuel Moyn: Prince Andre went on, “that alone would change the whole war and make it less cruel as it is, we've been playing at war. That's the nasty thing. We act magnanimously and all that. It's like the magnanimity and sentimentality of the lady who swoons when she sees a calf slaughtered. She's so kind. She can't bear the sight of blood, but she eats the same calf in sauce with great appetite. We're told about the rules of war, about chivalry. It's all nonsense. Take no prisoners but kill and go to your death.”

塞缪尔·莫恩：安德烈继续说：“单单这一条就能使战争改观，让战争不那么残酷。因而现在我们在战争中奉行的宽大为怀，简直令人作呕。这种宽大和同情——类似千金小姐的宽大和同情，她一看见被宰杀的牛犊就会晕倒，她是那么慈善，见不得血，但是她却津津有味地蘸着酱料吃小牛肉。我们谈论什么战争法规、骑士精神，全是胡扯。别收俘虏，直接赶尽杀绝。”

Samuel Moyn: Whoever has come to this, as I have through the same sufferings, would reach this conclusion. If there was none of this magnanimity and war, we'd go to it only when there was something worth certain death. So the passage concludes when Prince Andre says, the whole point would be to cast off the lie as, you know, giving up hypocrisy. If it's war, it's war and not a game.

塞缪尔·莫恩：“谁要是到我这个地步，遭受过同样的痛苦，那也会这么想。如果战争没有宽大，那么我们就只有在值得赴死的时候，就像现在这样，才去打仗了。”在这段话的末尾，安德烈说：“重要的一点是，要去掉谎言，剥除伪善。战争就是战争，而不是儿戏。”

Zachary Davis: There weren’t any official laws of war at the time, nationally or internationally. But there were customs. It was widely understood that if someone surrendered, you would take them prisoner and look after them, feed them and treat them humanely.

扎卡里·戴维斯：当时各国和国际上都没有正式出台战争法，但会有一些惯常习俗。比如人们公认，如果有人投降，就要把他们收为战俘，照顾他们，给他们吃喝，以人道的方式对待他们。

Samuel Moyn: And especially if they laid down their arms and surrendered, you wouldn't kill them, but you could. And so Prince Andrei says, “I wouldn't take them prisoner. I think it would be better if we kind of switch presumptions and just executed all of those who we beat. They surrender. We force them to lay their arms down. Then we would execute them, because this would make people understand, not least the participants themselves, what war really is, which is killing, which is the height of immorality. It's murder by any other name.” And he suggests, “if we did that, we wouldn't let our states go to war as often. It would only happen when it was really worth incurring the immorality.”

塞缪尔·莫恩：当他们放下武器投降时，你更不应该杀掉他们，不过你有能力这么做。所以安德烈公爵说：“我绝不收俘虏。我觉得改变这些规矩会更好。直接把打败的一方赶尽杀绝。他们投降了，我们迫使他们放下武器。接着我们要处死他们，这样一来除了参战的士兵，其他人也会明白战争的本质就是屠杀，没有任何道德可言，名为战争，实为杀戮。若是直接处死战俘，各国就不会轻易开战，只会在必须流血牺牲的时候才开战。”

Samuel Moyn: Now, this is an amazing, I think, passage, because it's really like the opposite of what we think today. At the very time Tolstoy was writing his novel, in Switzerland the first Geneva Convention was created, which is precisely about protecting wounded soldiers.

塞缪尔·莫恩：这段对话很了不起，因为它传达的观点与我们如今的观点截然相反。托尔斯泰写这部小说的时候，第一部《日内瓦公约》在瑞士签署。这部公约旨在保护受伤的士兵。

Zachary Davis: The first Geneva Convention Treaty was created in Geneva, Switzerland in 1864. This agreement defined the basic rights of wartime prisoners and ensured sick and wounded soldiers would be treated humanely.

扎卡里·戴维斯：第一部《日内瓦公约》于1864年在瑞士日内瓦签署。该协议规定了战俘的基本权利，确保患病和受伤的士兵可以得到人道的待遇。

Samuel Moyn: And in our politics, you know, we think war crimes are like the worst thing ever. You know, we had a whole debate in American politics about how horrible torture is, not war, not endless war, but by what happens to those we capture. And so what amazed me when I read it was Andrei's just, you know, unceremonious rejection of everything we're supposed to believe, which is that the worst thing about war is war crimes. The best thing to do is to condemn in advance the immorality and the way war is fought. And the reason he says we must do so is because it would help us avoid war itself.

塞缪尔·莫恩：在美国政治中，战争罪是最糟糕的一种罪行。美国政界曾全面探讨了酷刑的可怕之处，当时讨论的不是无休无止的战争，而是战俘的境遇。所以读到安德烈这番话的时候，我特别震惊，因为他是如此直截了当地动摇了我们习以为常的一切想法。我们一般都觉得战争最糟糕地方是战争罪，而最好的解决办法是事先谴责战争中的非人道行为以及非人道的作战方式。而安德烈认为我们之所以需要这么做，是为了避免战争本身。

Zachary Davis: At an earlier point in the novel, Prince Andrei himself benefits from these humane war customs. He is wounded in the Battle of Austerlitz and his enemy Napoleon shows him mercy and takes care of him.

扎卡里·戴维斯：然而在小说的先前章节，安德烈公爵本人其实受益于人道主义的战争习俗。当时他在奥斯特里茨战役中负伤，而敌人拿破仑下令宽待并悉心照料他。

Samuel Moyn: And kind of out of the kindness of his heart, the emperor decides that there should be a little humanity and warfare. And so it's the height of irony that Andrei, who has benefited from this generosity earlier in the novel. And, you know, at the hands of no less a figure than Napoleon, that Prince Andrei is going to reject this whole idea of humanity in warfare.

塞缪尔·莫恩：拿破仑出于仁慈，决定采取一点人道主义措施。安德烈此前正受益于此，所以他那番话就颇具讽刺意味。不过虽说安德烈接受了拿破仑的优待，但他还是反对将战争人性化。

Zachary Davis: By prettifying war, we just help perpetuate it. And one of the things that comes through is this same concern with hypocrisy of war, which is linked, I think probably to his same critiques of your aristocracy. And it's the way that aesthetic splendor and aestheticized warfare covers the true gruesomeness and cruelty and disgust. And it seems like Tolstoy was just able to see more clearly, you know, the rotting corpse rather than the gleaming horse.

扎卡里·戴维斯：若是美化战争，我们只会让战争永存。同样需要关注的的还有战争伪善的一面，类似于贵族生活做派中的那种伪善。对战争的美化和所谓的人道掩盖了战争本质中冰冷残酷、令人作呕的一面。透过这些表面的仁义，托尔斯泰更加清晰地看到了战场上的一具具尸骸，而非潇洒嘶鸣的战马。

Samuel Moyn: Yes. Yes. I mean, there are tons of examples of this indictment of hypocrisy in all of his writings. And in that sense, the prettification of war and the sense that we're good enough people, if we make it humane while tolerating it, is just one example of an indictment of civilization, that so-called he leveled at all kinds of practices.

塞缪尔·莫恩：没错。托尔斯泰的作品中有许多对这种伪善的批判。从这个意义上讲，如果我们美化战争、沾沾自喜地觉得自己很高尚，一边让战争人道化，一边继续容忍战争，这无疑是文明的衰退。他就是这么定性这些行为的。

How did religion affect Tolstoy?

宗教带给托尔斯泰什么影响？

Zachary Davis: In the 1870s, Tolstoy went through another transformation. At this point he had completed his two best known works, War and Peace and Anna Karenina, and he found himself crippled by existential despair. He was paralyzed by the idea of death. Impressed by the faith of the common people, he turned to religion for answers.

扎卡里·戴维斯：19世纪70年代，托尔斯泰的思想再次转变。那时，他已经完成了两部最著名的作品：《战争与和平》和《安娜·卡列尼娜》。然而恰恰在那时，他陷入了存在危机中。死亡的念头让他恐慌不已。平民们的信仰深深触动了他，他转而从宗教中寻求答案。

Samuel Moyn: And then he has this kind of conversion experience. Most famously, he gives up violence and he reshapes his life around essentially not Christianity, and he's excommunicated by the Russian Orthodox Church, but around the Sermon on the Mount and especially what Jesus has to say in Matthew Five resist not evil, which he interprets in a certain way, which leads him to condemn war, condemn eating animals, abstain from sex.

塞缪尔·莫恩：他的思想有所转变。最为人所知的一个变化是，他不再使用暴力，并围绕着“登山宝训”重塑自己的生活。他当时严格来讲已经不是基督教徒了，因为俄国东正教会革除了他的教籍。重塑生活时，他特别重视耶稣在《马太福音》第五章中所说的“不要让邪恶侵入你的灵魂”。他对这点有着特殊的解读，并基于此开始谴责战争，谴责吃肉，过着清心寡欲的生活。

Zachary Davis: Tolstoy lived the later part of his life by five tenets: be not angry, do not lust, do not take oaths, do not resist evil, and love your enemies. For him, nonresistance to evil did not mean that he would accept evil, but rather that he would not fight evil with evil, particularly violence. This approach was especially influential for other nonviolent pacifists, including the Indian social activist Mahatma Gandhi. Tolstoy expanded on the critiques he made in War and Peace, and started looking outside the scope of war. 

扎卡里·戴维斯：托尔斯泰后半生遵守着五条生活准则：勿动怒、勿淫乱、勿轻诺、勿拒恶、爱敌人。对他而言，“勿拒恶”并不是说会接纳恶行，而是不会以恶制恶，尤其是不会以暴制恶。这条准则极大地影响了其他非暴力和平主义者，比如印度社会活动家圣雄甘地。托尔斯泰的关注点不再局限于《战争与和平》中批判的内容，他开始批判战争之外的东西。

Samuel Moyn: In that period around 1890, he was asked to write the preface to an early kind of vegetarian ethics manual. And he Tolstoy decided he would travel not to his local butcher, you know, which are just little, you know, near his estate, a little outpost, but to the nearest big town where he'd heard there was a new facility, a modern slaughterhouse, which had been built precisely to make animal slaughter more humane.

塞缪尔·莫恩：1890年左右，他受邀为一份早期的素食道德手册撰写序言。托尔斯泰决定不去走访本地的肉铺，那只是他庄园附近的一块破地方。他转而去了附近城市里的新型、现代化屠宰场。这个屠宰场的建造目的是为了让屠宰更人性化。

Zachary Davis: Tolstoy wrote about this experience in an essay called The First Step, first published in 1900.

扎卡里·戴维斯：1900年，托尔斯泰发表了《向上的第一步》。文章中谈到了他在屠宰场的经历。

Samuel Moyn: And he says the same thing that isn't it hypocritical that there are so many people he uses the example of a kind of wealthy woman again, so it's a gendered parable. People who rest content with the fact that their animals are slaughtered humanely while still eating them.

塞缪尔·莫恩：他在文章中又指出，这样做何其伪善。他再次以千金小姐为例，以性别为喻，指出很多人都满意于这样一个事实，那就是这些动物是以人道的方式被屠宰的，他们会心安理得地吃掉这些肉。

Samuel Moyn: And above all, he's making a point about the bad faith of audiences who say there are these necessary evils. But if I've made them more humane, I'm a good person. And that's just like the lady already in War and Peace. He sees it as is a hypocrite for allowing herself to believe that she's a morally good person. By demanding humanity in the slaughter of non-human animals.

塞缪尔·莫恩：最重要的是，他指出，那些觉得这些伪善有必要的人，他们的观念有多么偏颇。他们觉得如果是以人道的方式来屠宰，那么自己就是个高尚的人。这就跟《战争与和平》里面那个千金小姐的例子如出一辙。托尔斯泰觉得这不过是一个伪君子自欺欺人般地相信自己品行高尚，而他这么认为的原因竟然是，要求以人性的方式屠杀非人性的动物。

Zachary Davis: Tolstoy referred to slavery to help us think through this same problem of, you know, the effort or the intention to humanize can prolong suffering rather than eradicate it. Could you tell us, what was he saying about American or other slavery?

扎卡里·戴维斯：托尔斯泰借用了奴隶制来帮我们真正理解，人性化的措施或意图只能延长痛苦，而不是消除痛苦。您能跟我讲讲，托尔斯泰讲了哪些关于美国黑奴制或其他奴隶制的内容？

Samuel Moyn: So, you know, it is a separate argument in the sense that if you indict the bad faith of an audience, it doesn't exactly matter if they're recognizing their hypocrisy and abandoning it would make a difference. It's still wrong. But he did often make arguments about how actually making these terrible practices more humane, made them more long lasting. And his favorite example was chattel slavery.

塞缪尔·莫恩：要是指责人们观念偏颇的话，这其实是另一个单独的话题。他们是否承认自己伪善并不重要，没有带来什么不同。错的仍然是错的。不过他常常谈到若是让这些可怕的行为人性化，那其实会让这些行为持续存在。他最常举的一个例子是动产奴隶制。

Zachary Davis: Chattel slavery was the most common form of slavery in the Americas. Human beings were bought, sold, traded, and inherited as property. The United States and parts of Europe supported this practice during the 16th, 17th and 18th centuries and was a key foundation of their economies.

扎卡里·戴维斯：动产奴隶制是美洲最普遍的奴隶制形式，指的是人被买卖、以及可以作为财产传给后代。在16、17和18世纪，这些做法在美国和欧洲部分地区都受到支持，为这些地区的经济打下了重要基础。

Samuel Moyn: And so it's just like with war, there were laws to make slavery less cruel. And Tolstoy says after the fact of an abolitionist movement that has succeeded, we look back and we say, what an outrage that people tried to make slavery humane. Especially if, and some historians think this happened, making slavery humane made slavery last longer.

塞缪尔·莫恩：就像对待战争一样，人们出台了一些法律来让奴隶制不那么残酷。托尔斯泰说，废奴运动成功后，回顾历史，我们会发现，试图让奴隶制人性化是多么令人愤慨。一些历史学家认为如果此举成真，那么奴隶制会存在得更久。

Samuel Moyn: So Tolstoy says if that's the case, how can we risk the moral error of allowing war to last forever or certain wars to be what we call forever wars like in our current history when we make them humane? Now, there are fair responses to this kind of argument. You might say, well, we could eradicate chattel slavery, even though no one thought so for millennia. And it's just not the case with war. And for that reason, we should make it humane instead.

塞缪尔·莫恩：托尔斯泰说，如果真是这样，我们怎么能为了让战争人性化，而犯下巨大的道德错误，让战争有可能一直持续下去，或是让某些战争变得永无休止，就像现代有些战争一样。如今也有人对此作出回应，比如会说，即使几千年间都没有人想要废除动产奴隶制，但最后我们还是可以废除它。但战争则不同。所以我们才需要让战争人性化。

Zachary Davis: Tolstoy believed that by making war more humane, it paradoxically makes it more permanent and harder to challenge.

扎卡里·戴维斯：托尔斯泰则相信，如果战争更加人性化，反而会让战争持续时间更长，更难以结束。

Samuel Moyn: I think that was Tolstoy's ultimate position because, of course, he became a pacifist, not someone who, like Prince Andre, was calling for more brutal war in the name of peace, but someone who just said, turn the other cheek, don't fight. But then you have things like humane occupations and humane wars that seem to be low level, tolerable domination. And it's not as if, you know, giving up the cycle of violence leaves you with peace. On the contrary, they leave you with endless occupation and drone warfare and special forces, and so we have an invisible war that goes on forever.

塞缪尔·莫恩：我想这是托尔斯泰最根本的立场，因为显然他已经是和平主义者了。他不会再像安德烈公爵一样，以和平为名呼吁残酷战争；而是呼吁人们宽宏容忍，不要诉诸暴力。然而接着你会看到人道主义占领、人道主义战争似乎成了主流，为人们所容忍。但这并不是说，放弃以暴制暴就会带来和平。相反，它会带来无休止的军事占领、无人机战争和特种部队，所以这场无形的战争会永无休止地持续下去。

Zachary Davis: Let's go to the mindset of that nice lady who condemned the poor animals but enjoyed her roast lamb. Is it a failure of imagination? Is it that you can't get to abolition until after the fact, and so you require a vanguard of that particularly imaginative progressives.

扎卡里·戴维斯：我们来研究研究那位千金小姐的心态吧，她一边谴责屠宰可怜动物的行为，一边津津有味地享用烤羊肉。是因为想象不到屠宰本质上有多残酷吗？还是因为在正视现实前，实在无法放弃吃肉，因而惺惺作态，仿佛自己道德升华了？

Samuel Moyn: Absolutely. I mean, I think, you know, we're all morally compromised. We're all, you know, living, even if we're weak, in the midst of unjust structures. And we're all, I mean, the goal, I think, of anyone who's decrying hypocrisy is not to pretend to purity. But that doesn't mean we can less let hypocrisy pass either. So I think he's saying we're weak and we allow ourselves out of our complacency, you know, to tolerate things we ought to consider wrong.

塞缪尔·莫恩：没错。我认为我们都在道德上有所妥协。尽管我们都很软弱，但不得不说我们生活的世界并不全然公平。并非所有的伪善者都是为了假装自己纯洁无辜，但这也不等于我们可以接受伪善。所以他说我们很软弱，允许自己骄傲自满，容忍那些应当被视为错误的事情。

Zachary Davis: Tolstoy drew on the abolition of slavery as a model for how we can eradicate other aspects of our modern world—aspects that we’ve tolerated for centuries but know are wrong.

扎卡里·戴维斯：托尔斯泰以奴隶制的废除为例，告诉我们现代世界的其他不公之处也可以被改变。这些不公已经被我们容忍了几百年，但我们清楚它们是错的。

Samuel Moyn: And Tolstoy says now we have to mass conviction that slavery is not only wrong, but can be abandoned. And so the question is how we got over that threshold, which is an amazing fact that anyone, given the track record, ever did cross it. And he really says just consider that the same stuff might be available with respect to other practices like war and eating animals and so forth.

塞缪尔·莫恩：托尔斯泰说，如今我们必须坚信，奴隶制不仅是错误的，而且是可以废除的。问题在于我们要如何开这个头，不过根据过往经验我们可以发现一个令人惊讶的事实，那就是任何人都可以开这个头。只要想想别的同样的事情，比如战争和吃肉，最后这些也可以结束或改变的。

How should we see Tolstoy’s nonviolent ideas?

我们要如何看待托尔斯泰的非暴力理念？

Zachary Davis: Is there a political philosophy behind his nonviolent tendencies? Like, if we're deciding, OK, this practice is a moral and should not be abolished or this practice is immoral, should be abolished. How would we use Tolstoy's guide to help us?

扎卡里·戴维斯：他的非暴力主义倾向背后是否有一套政治理念？比如，我们来决定这个做法是不是道德的，要不要被废除。如今我们要如何运用托尔斯泰的这套准则来做决策呢？

Samuel Moyn: It's a great question and I'm personally not sure we would want to go all the way with him. It's not a full-fledged, let's say, political philosophy that, you know, maybe you or I can defend. But he did take it pretty far. And you know, these books that are less read now but are, you know, were enormously influential on Gandhi and so forth, do deserve serious consideration. Tolstoy felt that violent revolution was just a recipe for domination and rejected violence, including violent revolution.

塞缪尔·莫恩：这个问题问得很好。我个人其实并不确定我们会不会愿意一直运用他的这套准则。它并非可供你我捍卫的、成熟的政治理念，但它影响确实很深远。如今读他这些书的人变少了，但它们对甘地等人有过很大的影响，所以还是值得我们认真对待。托尔斯泰认为暴力革命只是统治手段，所以他反对暴力革命在内的任何暴力行为。

Samuel Moyn: But it was in the name of a kind of abolitionist movement. And, you know, it is totally applicable not just to animal rights movements in our day, but also to prison abolition, which used to be unthinkable. Now, you know, there’s multiple issues of the Harvard Law Review all about prison abolition. It's true that he never worked out the nonviolence.

塞缪尔·莫恩：不过这个名义是为了废除不合理的制度。这点不仅被运用在如今保护动物权益的运动中，还被运用于废除刑罚的运动中，这点是以前难以想象的。《哈佛法律评论》有很多期便探讨了废除刑罚。不过其实，托尔斯泰从未实现非暴力。

Samuel Moyn: Like, at one point he says, well, of course you can kill a mosquito, but why? And, there's a big debate about, well, what can you do with animals even if you don't eat them? I mean, can you use them for—can you use the sheep for wool? And what are we exactly ruling out? What is that? What is non-resistance mean? And ultimately, Tolstoy was an anarchist. You know, he basically thought if everyone just became a Christian, in his sense, we wouldn't need government. But there's no doubt we're all on journeys and who knows where it'll lead and when and where we all need to be going in these times especially.

塞缪尔·莫恩：有次他说，你当然可以拍死蚊子了，但为什么要这么做呢？还有人争论，如果你不吃动物的话，你可以拿它们做什么？可以从绵羊身上剪羊毛吗？那我们到底废除了哪些？不抵抗又是什么意思？本质上讲，托尔斯泰是个无政府主义者。他觉得如果每个人都是基督教徒，那某种意义上我们就不需要政府了。但毫无疑问，我们都在路上，谁能知道路将通往何方，特别是某些时候我们需要在何时前往何处。

Zachary Davis: Yeah. I mean, what happens if Napoleon attacks your country? Do you turn the other cheek? It opens up the fear of imperialism by other forces who are, you know, not willing to live by Tolstoy’s Christianity.

扎卡里·戴维斯：没错。比如有人会说，如果拿破仑侵略了你的国家，你会怎样？你还会宽宏大量吗？这以某种有违托尔斯泰基督教信条的暴力方式，展现了对帝国主义侵略的担忧。

Samuel Moyn: Absolutely. You know, most Americans think, well, you can’t appease evil. You know, and this experience of the great debate, so-called in 1938 through 41 in which America kind of pivoted to world arms supremacy after kind of stand a standoffish attitude, at least when it came to European wars, has left us with this very powerful legacy where Americans don't really think that peace is the answer, because Hitler—you know, you can't appease Hitler, you can't appease Saddam, you can't appease Gaddafi.

塞缪尔·莫恩：没错。大部分美国人都觉得，你无法对邪恶势力报以绥靖的态度。此前美国对此也有过争议。在1938年至1941年，美国在二战中先是保持中立，后来投入了很多军事力量，至少在欧洲战场是这样。这带给美国很大影响，让美国人觉得和平解决不了问题，因为你无法对希特勒、萨达姆和卡扎菲报以绥靖的态度。

Samuel Moyn: The trouble is, we haven't had an American war in a very long time, which has made the world better. Actually since World War Two. Arguably, all the wars America has fought have been disastrous mistakes. So, You know, I think we need to, you know, learn a little bit the lesson that Americans learned and really the whole world in the face of Adolf Hitler, that violence is absolutely appropriate and legitimate and necessary because it's usually not. And it most often makes the world worse.

塞缪尔·莫恩：美国已经很久没有大规模开战了，这对世界来说是好事。实际上二战之后，美国发起的每场战争都是灾难性的错误。我觉得我们要从二战时美国与全世界的经验中吸取教训，明白虽然战争有时候合理且必要，但多数时候都并非如此，它往往只能让世界更糟糕。

Samuel Moyn: You know, we could turn the tables on him and say, well, what if by not intervening, you know, in the name of your pure ethics, you end up making the world worse? Like, what if the United States hadn't been dragged into World War Two against its will? Now, it all Americans would say, thank God that happened because, you know, even more Jews would have died or, you know, more suffering would have taken place, Adolf Hitler would have had a long term empire, you know, the United Kingdom would have fallen and all of these things. So we can't rule out that perspective.

塞缪尔·莫恩：但你知道，我们可以反驳托尔斯泰，说如果不以纯粹道德的名义去干涉，会不会让世界变得更糟糕。比如，如果美国在二战中没有改变原来的立场去参战，那会怎样？如今所有美国人都说，感谢上帝，幸亏美国参战了，不然可能会有更多犹太人被杀害，或是会出现更多苦难，阿道夫·希特勒将建立长期统治，英国将会沦陷，等等。所以我们不能排除这种想法。

How did Tolstoy inspire peace movement?

托尔斯泰如何鼓舞了和平运动？

Zachary Davis: So I want to connect now whether Tolstoy's work—how does it connect to later mass mobilization efforts, peace movements from Gandhi to Martin Luther King to, you know, Black Lives Matter today. Can we tell a story in which Tolstoy inspires all of these world-shaking movements?

扎卡里·戴维斯：我还想谈谈托尔斯泰的作品与后世的联系。它们是否影响了后来的社会运动，影响了从甘地到马丁·路德·金倡导的和平运动以及我们如今的种族平权运动？您可以举一个例子，来讲讲托尔斯泰是如何鼓舞着这些举世闻名的运动吗？

Samuel Moyn: I would actually start before Gandhi, who encounters Tolstoy in the 1920s. What happens after these Americans who are living in the 1820s themselves kind of squabbling about whether to prioritize abolition or peace. You can't fight the civil war even to end slavery. Most American pacifists in the early 18th, 19th century decide to justify violence. William Lloyd Garrison is a great example who had been the iconic pacifist. But ultimately says we have to fight this one, guys. And yet in in the later 19th century, you see a huge upsurge kind of in tandem with Tolstoy's effect of Peace movements.

塞缪尔·莫恩：我先从甘地说起吧，他在20世纪20年代的时候与托尔斯泰见过面。在这之前，也就是19世纪20年代，美国人还在争论是要先废除奴隶制还是先巩固和平。可之后发生了什么？你不能进行内战，即便目的是为了结束奴隶制。18、19世纪初，大多数美国和平主义者都决定为暴力辩护。威廉·劳埃德·加里森曾一度是典型的和平主义者。但他最终说，我们必须与奴隶制斗争。然而，到了19世纪后期，你会看到在托尔斯泰的影响下，美国出现了一系列和平运动。

Samuel Moyn: What happens is that most of them reject his purity and say, OK, you know, asking soldiers not to fight is not going to hack it. So what we need to do is, you know, not oppose states, but pressure states to sign peace treaties. And I think the biggest influence he has is on the philosophy of nonviolence. So that's something that's in this tradition that, you know, runs through Gandhi and Martin Luther King.

塞缪尔·莫恩：他们中大部分人反对纯粹的斗争，认为保持和平并不会把事情搞砸，我们要做的不是反对各国，而是要求各国签署和平条约。我认为托尔斯泰的最大影响在于传播了非暴力理念，这个理念一直被甘地和马丁·路德·金所坚持。

Zachary Davis: I'll ask you to connect it one more level, which is connected to norms of civility. In the same way, we've seen very smart analysts look at the ways in which inequality is allowed to persist. All sorts of oppression is allowed to persist. Because politicians want, you know, they insist on being nice to one another, you know, that desire to have a sanitized public sphere ends up just hiding the suffering that's going on.

扎卡里·戴维斯：我还想听您讲讲另一个层面的联系，他的作品对文明规范有什么影响？同样的，一些聪明绝顶的分析人士觉得，可以允许不平等现象以及各种压迫继续存在。政客们坚持宣传要对彼此友善，然而一个友善的社会只会掩盖住内在问题。

Samuel Moyn: I guess I would say that Tolstoy was, you know, not a fan of violence, but he was very happy to reveal civilization as a sham. And it's in this regard that Gandhi is once again his great successor. It's a famous anecdote that when asked what he thought of Western civilization, Gandhi replies, It sounds like it would be a good idea. These are figures who want to unmask us as liars about our own advancement morally. And I think they're enormously successful and we should continue their campaign.

塞缪尔·莫恩：我会这么说：托尔斯泰并不热衷于暴力，但他乐于为文明剥去伪饰。在这方面，甘地也继承了他的思想。有一个很有名的小故事：有人问甘地他如何看待西方文明，甘地说，西方要是真有文明的话，那倒好了。我们声称自己以道德的方式推动发展，但这些伟大的人物想要揭穿我们的弥天大谎。我觉得他们在这点上做的非常成功，我们应该接过他们的衣钵。

Zachary Davis: If you are asked at some social event, how did War and Peace change the world? How might you respond and, you know, one or two sentences?

扎卡里·戴维斯：如果有人在社交场合问您，《战争与和平》这本书如何改变了世界？您会如何用一两句话概括？

Samuel Moyn: It really does give us a sense, which is new of what art can do and what role it plays in our life. And really, his most important achievements in the novel are stylistic. You know, he's renowned for a technique that was later called defamiliarization or estrangement, which is about narrating from an unexpected point of view, which forces us to see a familiar practice as if, you know, from the point of view of an outsider. I think, you know, he changed for, like, really the whole world, our sense of, you know, the moral purposes art should serve, but also how precisely it goes about serving them.

塞缪尔·莫恩：它给我一种感觉，让我意识到艺术能带来什么，能在我们的生活中发挥什么作用。托尔斯泰在文学上的最大成就就是他的行文风格，他的这种有名的技巧后来被称作“陌生化”，也就是从意想不到的角度去描述事物，让我们以局外人的视角去看待一个熟悉的内容。他不仅让全世界认识到艺术应当服务于道德宗旨，还具体地展现了应当如何服务于这一宗旨。

Zachary Davis: Tolstoy used this defamiliarization technique in War and Peace to illustrate the hypocrisy of what happens when we make war more humane. But his influence stretches beyond just that. He inspired countless nonviolent movements around the world seeking more just and peaceful societies. Tolstoy’s pacifist philosophy also had a significant impact on post WWII politics and the push for peace treaties.

扎卡里·戴维斯：托尔斯泰在《战争与和平》中运用陌生化的技巧，来展现让战争人性化的做法是多么虚伪。但他的影响力远不止于此。他还鼓舞着全世界人民开展了无数非暴力运动，以建立一个更加公正和平的社会。托尔斯泰的和平主义理念也极大地推动了二战后的政治与和平条约的签署。

Zachary Davis: Many things have changed, but not all for the better. Our relentless quest to make wars more humane, has only made us better at hiding their still horrific realities, such as drone strikes and forever wars. Tolstoy posed an ongoing question that we may never answer.

扎卡里·戴维斯：许多事情已经改变了，但并非所有事情都变得更好。我们坚持不懈地让战争更加人性化，然而这仅仅让我们更好地掩盖了战争的残酷现实，比如无人机袭击和战争的永无休止。托尔斯泰提出的问题仍然适用于今天，而我们或许永远难以给出答案。

Zachary Davis: Writ Large is a production of Ximalaya. Writ Large is produced by Galen Beebe, Jack Pombriant and me, Zachary Davis, with help from Feiran Du, Ariel Liu, Wendy Wu, and Monica Zhang. Our intern is Liza French. Our theme song is by Ian Coss. Don’t miss an episode. Subscribe today in the Ximalaya app. Thanks for listening. See you next time.

扎卡里·戴维斯：本节目由喜马拉雅独家制作播出。感谢您的收听，我们下期再见！