【英文原声版75】Kaiama Glover: Discourse on Colonialism

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Zachary Davis: The power of great art is its ability to reframe reality. It can shake us loose from our cemented beliefs and offer new perspectives. And that’s exactly what Aime Cesaire does in his 1950 essay Discourse on Colonialism.

扎卡里·戴维斯：伟大的艺术富有力量，可以重塑现实，动摇我们僵化的想法，给予我们新的视角。而这正是艾梅·塞泽尔在他1950年的文章《关于殖民主义的话语》中所做的。

Kaiama Glover: Discourse on Colonialism, is this, you know, essay manifesto shot through with poetry, very intellectual, very historical, very clearly an intellectual diatribe against colonialism. My name is Kayama Glover. I'm professor of French and Africana Studies at Barnard College at Columbia University.

卡亚玛·格洛弗：《关于殖民主义的话语》是一篇散文式宣言，在表达上具有诗性的特征，以明显的思辨的方式抨击了殖民主义，极具智慧，也很有历史意义。我是卡亚玛·格洛弗，是哥伦比亚大学巴纳德学院的法语和非裔美国人研究的教授。

Zachary Davis: In the 16th century, France began establishing colonies around the world. They justified their brutal imperialism by claiming they were civilizing savage peoples. But Cesaire saw through their lies. In Discourse on Colonialism, he exposed the truth.

扎卡里·戴维斯：16世纪，法国开始在世界各地建立殖民地。他们为自己残酷的帝国主义辩解，声称在给野蛮的人们带去文明。但塞泽尔看穿了他们的谎言。在《关于殖民主义的话语》中，他揭露了真相。

Kaiama Glover: This is an extraordinarily poetic text, the way it's written. It is like singing songs. There is repetition. There is rhetorical flourish. There is ask and answer and call in response. He is not a stodgy colonialism who is back historically in the present moment. And this is why it is a call to arms that, like so poignantly, interpolates the reader by the sheer beauty of its style that it’s worth noting and really for listeners thinking, oh, I'll figure out it and read this anti-capitalist text that’s probably really smart. But what I can promise is it’s an exciting read, like it's an enjoyable, beautiful text to read.

卡亚玛·格洛弗：这篇文章特别有诗意，写作方式就像在写歌词一样，有反复申说，有华丽的修辞，有问有答，有呼有应。在对殖民主义的叙述上，它并没有呆板地从过去开始，一直回顾到如今。它呼吁人们采取行动，但它通过纯粹的形式之美深深地打动了读者，值得人们关注。听众也会想要深入探究，读一读这篇或许真的很精巧的反资本主义的文章。我敢保证，它读起来会叫人非常兴奋、愉悦且美妙。

Zachary Davis: Welcome to Writ Large, a podcast about how books change the world. I’m Zachary Davis. In each episode, I talk with one of the world’s leading scholars about one book that changed the course of history. For this episode, I sat down with Professor Kaiama Glover to discuss Aime Cesaire’s Discourse on Colonialism. Aime Cesaire grew up on the island of Martinique in the Caribbean.

扎卡里·戴维斯：欢迎收听：改变你和世界的100书，在这里我们为大家讲述改变世界的书籍。我是扎卡里·戴维斯。每一集，我都会和一位世界顶尖学者讨论一本影响历史进程的书。在本集，我和卡亚玛·格洛弗教授一起讨论艾梅·塞泽尔的《关于殖民主义的话语》。艾梅·塞泽尔在加勒比地区的马提尼克岛长大。

Kaiama Glover: So he was born in 1913 to a black Caribbean family, sort of, I'd say middle class in contemporary parlance, family, but definitely on the lower socioeconomic scale. So threatened by poverty in his youth, his father and mother were both employed and educated, but he was not necessarily of the class that would have been expected to have a fancy future, let's put it that way. Nonetheless, he was a brilliant student and stood out and was rewarded for that under the colonial education system by being granted a scholarship to pursue his studies.

卡亚玛·格洛弗：1913年，塞泽尔出生在加勒比地区一个黑人家庭，这个家庭用现在的话来说勉强算中产阶级，但他们家里的经济收入和社会地位绝对还是比较低的。年轻时，塞泽尔就饱受贫困之苦。他的父母都受过教育，有工作，但在这个阶层里，很难说他肯定会有光明的未来。尽管如此，他学业优异，脱颖而出，受到了殖民地教育系统的奖励，获得了奖学金，得以继续深造。

Zachary Davis: In 1931, 18 year old Cesaire left Martinque and headed to Paris to continue his studies under this scholarship.

扎卡里·戴维斯：1931年，18岁的塞泽尔离开马提尼克岛，在奖学金的帮助下前往巴黎继续深造。

Kaiama Glover: And he was enrolled in the École Normale Supérieure, which is a very prestigious education institution. This would be like getting into Harvard or Oxford. It was definitely the good students path and a very prestigious and auspicious beginning to his life as an adult.

卡亚玛·格洛弗：他来到了巴黎高等师范学院，这是一所非常著名的学校。进了这儿，就像是进了哈佛或牛津。这是绝佳的求学之路，也为他成年后成长为一个有名望的人奠定了基础。

Zachary Davis: Cesaire was one of many students who were offered this type of scholarship from the French government. At the time, France had colonies around the world in present-day countries such as Vietnam, Senegal, Algeria, The French West Indies, and Canada. The French government hand-picked the best and the brightest students from these colonies and offered them similar scholarships. Cesaire was one of the students they picked from Martinique.

扎卡里·戴维斯：除了塞泽尔，还有很多学生也获得了法国政府提供的这种奖学金。当时，法国在世界各地都有殖民地，如今的越南、塞内加尔、阿尔及利亚、法属西印度群岛、加拿大等都处于法国的殖民统治之下。法国政府在这些殖民地精心挑选出最优秀、最聪明的学生，为他们提供类似的奖学金。塞泽尔是他们从马提尼克岛挑选的学生之一。

Kaiama Glover: So he gets to Paris and enrolls in this course of study and this very prestigious institution where he's really being anchored in French literature and culture and history and getting French, and then meets all of these other students from other parts of the empire.

卡亚玛·格洛弗：于是塞泽尔来到了巴黎，进入到这个非常有名的学府深造。在那儿他深受法国文学、文化和历史的熏陶，变得像个法国人，遇到很多来自帝国其他地区的学生。

Zachary Davis: The French government wanted to unite their colonies around the world under one French identity. Through this scholarship program, they were attempting to replace these students’ pre-French identities with a new French one. They tried to present French culture as superior to these colonies’ native cultures. But France’s attempts at instilling a unified identity were not entirely successful.

扎卡里·戴维斯：法国政府希望将自己在世界各地的殖民地统一于同一个法国身份之下。他们想要借助这个奖学金项目，为这些学生塑造出新的法国身份，取代他们的前法国身份。他们试图使法国文化享有优于殖民地文化的地位。但他们强行塑造统一身份的做法并没有完全成功。

Kaiama Glover: What Cesaire discovers upon arriving in Paris and meeting these other brown and black intellectuals is that kind of the bill of sale he's had going during his colonial education, notably the idea that Africa is uncivilized, that colonialism was a gift, that Martiniques and Caribbean folks are in a better position than their savage and uncivilized African brothers. The lie is exposed because he does, in effect, meet these brilliant and dynamic and fascinating characters from all over the French Empire. So in bringing together all of these people in Paris, the stage is set for this kind of realization among the best and the brightest who are saying, wait, hold on. I call untruth to this narrative.

卡亚玛·格洛弗：塞泽尔来到了巴黎，遇到了其他棕色或黑色皮肤的知识分子，他立刻发现他接受的殖民教育不过是一张卖身契。殖民教育告诉他，非洲文明未开，殖民主义是天赐的礼物，所以马提尼克人和加勒比人比他们野蛮且未开化的非洲兄弟更优越。而他遇到的来自世界各地法属殖民地的人却都那么优秀，充满了活力与魅力。谎言被揭穿了。所以，当法国政府把这些人聚集在巴黎的时候，也意外地为这帮最聪明的人提供了觉醒的机会。他们说，等等，我觉得这种殖民叙述是假的。

Zachary Davis: Cesaire became close with two other like-minded students. One was the poet Leon Damas who Cesaire knew in Martinique, and the other was writer and poet Léopold Sédar Senghor, who eventually became president of Senegal.

扎卡里·戴维斯：塞泽尔与另外两个志同道合的同学关系很好。一个是塞泽尔在马提尼克岛认识的诗人莱昂·达马斯，另一个是作家兼诗人列奥波尔德·塞达·桑戈尔。后者最后成为了塞内加尔的总统。

Kaiama Glover: And the three of them together start thinking, OK, so up till now we've been sort of immersed in this lie that's been told to us by the French colonial authorities via, you know, the construct of education. And this is something that is unacceptable and that we need to think about and vocally express about and moreover, that we need to write about. And so he gets there in 1931. And by 1935, he has fallen in with this crowd of brilliant scholars, intellectuals and now activists and starts a journal only has one issue, but it's an important one. In 1935, it's called L'Étudiant noir. Now, the Black student. And it's in this issue that Aime Cesaire uses for the first time the word Negritude Negritude.

卡亚玛·格洛弗：他们三个人开始一起思考，发现一直以来他们都沉浸在法国殖民当局通过教育体系宣传的谎言之中，这绝对不可接受。他们说，我们需要思考，需要大声表达，还需要写作。1931年，他来到了巴黎。1935年，他加入了这群杰出的学者、知识分子和未来的活动家，创办了一份只有一期、但非常重要的杂志，名叫《黑人学子》。正是在这一期杂志中，艾梅·塞泽尔第一次使用了“黑人性”这个词。

Kaiama Glover: And as you can hear in the word negritude, it takes this word negra, which is kind of a colonial epithet, a pejorative term that was used to describe Black people and turns it into a positive, essentially an aesthetic, a philosophy that combines Black is beautiful with Black power, with the idea of an African diaspora, but essentially the notion that there is no superiority of white European culture and civilization and that it is time to turn inward and to think about what Africa has contributed to Caribbean being to the global world order, etc.. So this revolution is kind of intellectual and artistic revolution that happens in Paris among black men from the French Empire.

卡亚玛·格洛弗：你可以听出来，“黑人性”（Negritude）这个词的词根是negra，这是殖民时期黑人的绰号，带有贬义色彩。而它被发展为“黑人性”一词，变成了积极的、从根本上说是美学与哲学层面的词汇。它传达了黑人的美与力量，同时展现了非洲人离散的经历，同时最重要的是，它传递了一个观念，那就是：欧洲白人的文化与文明并不优越，如今我们应当向内探寻，思考非洲对加勒比地区乃至世界秩序的贡献。这是一场由身处巴黎的法兰西帝国黑人男性掀起的知识与艺术的革命。

Zachary Davis: Who is reading these writings about Negritude and how did it start to spread among other thinkers and intellectuals in some of the colonial territories?

扎卡里·戴维斯：哪些人阅读了这些关于黑人性的著作？它是如何开始在一些殖民地的思想家和知识分子中传播的？

Kaiama Glover: So a few things. So, one, there is, as I said, the sort of intellectual scene happening in Paris in the 1930s where you have these students from Martinique especially, but also from sub-Saharan West Africa that are finding themselves in the hallowed halls of the French higher education system and are hanging out together who are in the cafes and in the salons and smoking cigarettes and having drinks and going to Caribbean dance halls together and really coming to a state of consciousness together about who they are.

卡亚玛·格洛弗：有几件事不得不提。一是就像我刚刚说的，20世纪30年代一批知识分子聚集在了巴黎，有来自马提尼克岛的学生，更有来自撒哈拉以南的西非的学生。他们在法国高等教育系统的圣殿里一起玩耍，在咖啡馆和沙龙里抽烟、喝酒，一起去加勒比舞厅。他们清醒地认识到自己是谁。

Kaiama Glover: And I think most importantly, in sort of a precursor of sort of way to pan-Africanism, recognizing that there's more that unites them than divides them. So that's one incredibly important thing that's happening around the time of the emergence of Negritude in the 30s. A second thing that's happening is, I guess you could call it “the fact of Haiti”.

卡亚玛·格洛弗：我认为最重要的是，他们作为泛非主义的先驱，共识多于分歧。这是30年代“黑人性”这个词出现时的一个重要背景。当时发生的第二个事情，我想你可以称之为“海地案例”。

Zachary Davis: Haiti was an example of a nation that broke free from French colonialism, but ultimately paid a heavy cost for doing so. Europeans began settling Haiti as early as the 15th century. By the mid-17th century, it was a French colony. It soon became France’s most profitable and most valuable colony and earned the nickname “the pearl of the antilles”.

扎卡里·戴维斯：海地为我们展现了，一个国家如何付出沉重代价，拼命从法国殖民统治中挣脱了出来。早在15世纪，欧洲人就开始在海地定居。到了17世纪中叶，它成为了法国的殖民地。很快，它成为了法国最赚钱、最有价值的殖民地，被称为“安的列斯群岛上的珍珠”。

Kaiama Glover: It produced, you know, upwards of 90 percent of the world's sugar, some enormous percent, percent of the world's coffee, tobacco, cotton, all of these crops, all of these commodities that had become incredibly valuable on the global market and that put French in the position of being the dominant imperial power sort of neck and neck with the United Kingdom, with Great Britain at the time.

卡亚玛·格洛弗：海地当时生产了全球90%以上的糖，咖啡、烟草、棉花的产量在全球占比也非常高。所有这些作物和商品在全球市场上都变得非常有价值，这使法国处于优势地位，成为当时与英国并驾齐驱的帝国力量。

Zachary Davis: Like colonizers around the world, the French enslaved the local population and forced them to work on their plantations. But the French enslavers in Haiti were particularly vicious.

扎卡里·戴维斯：法国人像世界各地的殖民者一样奴役当地居民，强迫他们在种植园工作。在海地的法国殖民者特别凶残。

Kaiama Glover: It was so brutal and so deadly to the enslaved population that the determination had been made that it was more capitally expeditious to work slaves quickly to death than it would have been to keep them alive, allow them to reproduce established conditions wherein in a an indigenous enslaved population could grow. And the reason that's important is that an enormous percentage of the enslaved population in Haiti at the time was young, was male and remembered freedom. This was not a population that had been born into enslavement.

卡亚玛·格洛弗：他们太残暴了，甚至造成了当地奴隶人口锐减。他们甚至觉得，从资本的角度看，让奴隶拼命工作到死，比让他们在原有的条件下自然繁衍、维持奴隶人口自然增长要更划算。之所以会这么认为，一个很重要的原因是，当时海地的奴隶中很大一部分是对自由尚有记忆的年轻男性，他们并不是生下来就是奴隶。

Kaiama Glover: And so what that meant is over time and with the demographics being what they were, meaning an enormous majority of Black enslaved nearly African people, a thin layer of mixed race people, so to speak, and what you would call pretty Black or which are like kind of lower class whites. And then an even thinner layer of colonial planters, many of whom didn't necessarily live in the colonies or back and forth, meant that you had this overwhelming majority of kind of barely enslaved and brutalized population that was able to come to political consciousness.

卡亚玛·格洛弗：这意味着随着时间的推移，从当时所谓人口统计学的角度看，绝大多数被奴役的黑人都是非裔。还有一小部分是混血儿，人称“漂亮的黑人”或“劣等白人”。更小一部分是殖民地的种植园园主，他们中的许多人不一定住在殖民地，甚至不一定经常到殖民地去。这意味着海地人口中的绝大多数人，其实都是这些奴隶。他们有能力可以生出政治意识，同时却又饱受残酷的奴役。

Zachary Davis: In the late 18th century, the Haitian revolutionaries assembled under the guidance of a free Black Haitian general named Toussaint Louverture. But meanwhile back in France, another revolution was brewing. Many people across Europe were giving serious thought to human rights and individual liberty. The old monarchical systems of government were under examination. In France, the lower classes were rising up to the aristocracy and monarchy. They wanted liberty, equality, and democracy. These revolutionary ideals spread throughout the French Empire and into the colonies.

扎卡里·戴维斯：18世纪末，海地革命者在向往自由的黑人将军杜桑·卢维杜尔的领导下团结起来。与此同时，在法国，另一场革命正在酝酿之中。欧洲许多人都在认真思考人权和个人自由的问题，审视旧的君主制政府体制。在法国，下层阶级正在奋起反抗贵族和君主制度。他们想要自由、平等和民主。这些革命理想传遍了整个法兰西帝国，也传入了殖民地。

Kaiama Glover: So this is all kind of this powder keg of various political and social democratic demographic factors that are coming together such that you end up with the outbreak of the Haitian revolution in 1791, the coming piggybacking, let's say, on the outbreak of the French Revolution in 1789. You have this key moment in 1794 where slavery is actually outlawed and we have the sense that things are sort of going to right themselves. Now at this point, Toussaint Louverture is not looking for independence in the late 18th and in the late 1790s and even up to 1802. What he's looking for is a measure of sovereignty within the French Empire. So to enjoy the rights and privileges of Frenchness without slavery.

卡亚玛·格洛弗：这就是融合了各种政治、社会民主与人口因素的火药桶，这些因素聚集在一起，导致了1791年海地革命的爆发，可以说是借助了1789年法国大革命爆发的势头。在1794年这个关键年份，奴隶制在海地被废除，我们感觉事情似乎在往正确的轨道上走。在这个时候，从18世纪90年代末，甚至一直到1802年，杜桑·卢维杜尔争取的不是独立，而是在法兰西帝国内的主权。他想要让海地人民不再受奴役，可以享受法国人的权利与待遇。

Zachary Davis: But it didn’t work out that way. France at this point was in the middle of two revolutions: the Haitain Revolution and the French Revolution. Towards the end of the French revolution, the revolutionaries overthrew the monarchy and established their own government. But this was short lived. The French military leader Napoleon Bonaparte overthrew the revolutionary government and became emperor of France in 1799.

扎卡里·戴维斯：但结果并不如意。当时的法国正处于两场革命之中——海地革命和法国革命。法国革命即将结束时，革命者推翻了君主制，建立了自己的政府。但胜利终究短暂。不久，法国军事领袖拿破仑·波拿巴推翻了革命政府，于1799年成为法国皇帝。

Zachary Davis: Napoleon wanted to keep Haiti as a French colony, so he captured Toussaint Louverture and sent him to a French prison, where he died. In 1802 Napoleon reinstated slavery in the French colonies. At first, it looked like Napoleon’s plan was going to succeed.

扎卡里·戴维斯：拿破仑想让海地继续成为法国殖民地。他逮捕了杜桑·卢维杜尔，把他送到法国监狱。杜桑最终死于狱中。1802年，拿破仑在法国殖民地恢复了奴隶制。起初，拿破仑的计划看上去似乎要成功了。

Kaiama Glover: He was able to do so in Martinique. He was able to do so in Guadeloupe. He was able to do so in Guyana, but he was not able to do so in Haiti. And it was all out continuation of the war under a new general, by the name I was deciding. And this time it was not going to be a battle for some sort of negotiated freedom with France. It was for the whole shebang. It was for absolute sovereignty of an independent French state.

卡亚玛·格洛弗：他能在马提尼克岛、瓜德罗普岛和圭亚那这样做，但在海地，他做不到。人名我记不太清了，反正是在一个新的将军的带领下，海地人民继续与法国作战。这一次，它不会是一场为了法国协商自由而进行的战争，这是一场全局之战，为的是捍卫一个法属殖民地独立之后的绝对主权。

Zachary Davis: The revolution was successful, and on January 1st, 1804, Haiti declared its independence from France. This was a huge threat to European colonialism.

扎卡里·戴维斯：革命成功了。1804年1月1日，海地宣布从法国独立出去。这是对欧洲殖民主义的有力一击。

Kaiama Glover: As you can imagine, a free Black republic in the middle of an enslaved hemisphere was a deeply avant garde and problematic entity, which meant that France and the United States would then go ahead and do all in their power to contain that revolution in by all means, any means necessary. So that meant several things. That meant commercial isolation. So we're going to starve you out or we're going to reduce the possibility to engage in trade relations that would sustain this independent nation.

卡亚玛·格洛弗：正如你可以想象的那样，在饱受奴役的南半球出现了一个自由的黑人共和国，这个国家是多么前卫，但同时它又会遭遇多么困难的问题。法国和美国将继续尽其所能，动用各种必要手段来遏制这场革命。这意味着海地会面临几大问题。其一是商业上的孤立。他们要切断它的经济供给，让它难以参与到可以促进独立国家发展的国际贸易之中。

Kaiama Glover: It meant military threat. French warships just outside of Haiti that were put there to make the point that Haitian independence would not be acknowledged until and this was a plan that was negotiated as late as 1825 until a debt of one hundred and fifty million francs was paid by the new nation to France to indemnify the planters in that lost property, including land and obviously slaves. And then it also meant kind of a narrative creation of Haiti as a cautionary tale for what happens when Black people try to rule themselves.

卡亚玛·格洛弗：其二是军事威胁。法国将军舰驻扎在海地境外，以此表明不承认海地的独立性。直到1825年，经过谈判，这个方案才被取消，但代价是新生的海地向法国支付了1.5亿法郎的债务，以赔偿种植园主的土地、奴隶等财产损失。这也意味着海地被叙述为一个颇具警示意味的案例，用来告诉黑人如果他们想要独立，会付出什么代价。

Kaiama Glover: And so what that means is a place like Martinique where Caesaire is from. Part of this kind of colonial education is about vilifying Haiti, about making an example of Haiti, of, well, you may think you have it bad as a colony of the French Empire, but it could be worse. Look what's going on in Haiti. And in effect, at first glance, you have the scent of a banana republic that got independence but hasn't been able to make it work. Narrative, the kind of conveniently overlooks the extent to which the wider world was absolutely insistent on the failure of that Black Republic, the people like me said there would not have been duped by this kind of narrative.

卡亚玛·格洛弗：这意味着像塞泽尔的家乡——马提尼克岛这样的地方，殖民教育的一部分内容就是诋毁海地，告诉人们也许你觉得做法兰西帝国的殖民地很糟糕，但情况有可能更糟，海地便是个例子。实际上，它给了你一些粗浅的介绍，告诉你香蕉共和国的点滴事迹，讲述他们如何争取独立、又如何没能如愿以偿。这种叙事有意地忽视了在全球更广泛的区域里，黑人共和国失败这一说在多大程度上立得住脚。像我这样的人会说，在那些地方人们不会轻易地被这套叙事所蒙蔽。

Zachary Davis: Over a century after Haiti gained its independence from France, the United States began to occupy Haiti. The Haitian president was assassinated in 1915, and the U.S. entered Haiti to restore political and economic stability, and remained there until 1934. This was all happening during Cesaire’s life up through his education in Paris. Cesaire, like many other students and people living under French rule at the time, grew up with this Haitian narrative as a cautionary tale.

扎卡里·戴维斯：海地从法国独立出去的一个多世纪之后，美国开始占领海地。1915年，海地总统被暗杀，美国以恢复政治秩序和保障经济稳定为由介入海地，一直在那儿待到1934年。所有这些事件都发生在塞泽尔赴巴黎深造之前的年代里。塞泽尔和其他许多当时生活在法国殖民统治下的人们一样，听着海地的故事长大。海地成了一个警世的案例。

Kaiama Glover: And so at the time of Caesar's arrival in France, you have this incredibly poignant and despicable reassertion of or like a reinvestment in colonialism that's happening in a country that for all of its, you know, arguably dystopian failures since the 19th century revolution, nonetheless stood out as an example of the possibility of Black sovereignty in the wake of slavery and colonialism. So to have that be being crushed and oppressed by a new imperial power in the power, notably the U.S., is something that's in the hearts, the minds and in the intellectual thinking of these students and in France.

卡亚玛·格洛弗：塞泽尔到达法国的时候，海地已经遭受了殖民主义可鄙的二度侵袭。可以说，这个国家自19世纪革命以来经历了种种反乌托邦式的失败。它让人心酸地说明了黑人有可能扫除奴隶制和帝国主义，建立自己的主权国家，但这个典范却被一个新的帝国主义强国——也就是美国——如此摧毁、压迫，这件事深深地印刻到了这些留法学生的心里，影响了他们的观念与想法。

Zachary Davis: What happened in the 19th century up until the 30s in terms of colonial resistance?

扎卡里·戴维斯：从19世纪直到20世纪30年代，反殖民主义运动有什么进展？

Kaiama Glover: There is not any moment in that time that was not violently, adamantly anticolonial, not any one you can't find a moment in any part of any of the colonial world that was not in constant refusal and resistance of what had happened.

卡亚玛·格洛弗：那段时期，没有哪个时刻没有激烈、坚决的反殖民主义运动。在任何一个殖民地，没有哪个时刻人们不是在持续抵抗殖民统治。

Kaiama Glover: The example of Haiti, then again, the resistance to the American occupation that happens in nineteen in the 1915 through 1920 period in Haiti, in addition to punctual revolution, anticolonial moments throughout both the British and the French Empire are going to make plain from beginning to end the extent to which colonialism has to constantly perform acrobatics to assert itself rhetorical acrobatics, intellectual, moral, governmental acrobatics in order to convince itself in the world of its legitimacy.

卡亚玛·格洛弗：继续以海地为例，1915年到1920年海地对美国殖民的抵抗，以至于大英帝国、法兰西帝国内部的反殖民主义运动都表明，殖民主义始终一直花招百出，运用各种修辞技巧、知识、道德、政府制度，以便向世界证明自己殖民的合法性。

Zachary Davis: Two years after Cesaire and his fellow students published their journal called The Black Student, he got married. And then two years after that in 1939, he moved with his wife back to Martinique and began teaching at the prestigious French high school he himself had attended.

扎卡里·戴维斯：在和同学们创立《黑人学子》杂志的两年后，塞泽尔结婚了。又过了两年，也就是1939年，他和妻子一起搬回了马提尼克岛，开始在他曾就读的著名法国高中教书。

Kaiama Glover: He's there in 1939 with his wife and their child at the time. And while he's there, he found a literary journal called Tropiques with two other intellectuals, which was essentially runs from 1941 to 1945. So exactly during the time of the war. And it this journal does a couple of things. It kind of puts into practice the idea of Negritude as a point of departure for kind of both at once historical, cultural, social and political organization among Black people in the Americas and more broadly.

卡亚玛·格洛弗：1939年，他和妻子孩子回到了家乡。在那儿，他和另外两个知识分子一起创办了文学杂志《热带》。杂志从1941年发行到1945年，正好是在二战期间。这本杂志实现了几样成就，把“黑人性”的理念付诸实践，成为了世人了解美洲乃至其他各地黑人历史、文化、社会和政治组织的窗口。

Zachary Davis: Cesaire had to be careful with what he published because at the time Martinique was occupied by France which was occupied by Hitler and the Nazis. In a way, Hitler was doing to Europe what Europe was doing to their colonies. Because of Hitler’s occupation in France, the media in Martinique was heavily monitored.

扎卡里·戴维斯：塞泽尔必须谨慎对待他发表的作品，因为当时马提尼克岛被法国占领，而法国又被希特勒占领。从某种程度上看，希特勒对欧洲所做的，就是欧洲对其殖民地所做的。由于希特勒占领了法国，马提尼克岛的媒体受到了严格的监控。

Kaiama Glover: The other thing that happens in this period of the late 1930s into the 1940s, as he writes his masterwork, arguably what's his masterwork, which is called Notebook of a Return to My Native Land, which is this extraordinary prose poem, maybe about 50 pages long.

卡亚玛·格洛弗：1930年代末到1940年代间还发生了一件事。这段时间，塞泽尔写下他的代表作《回乡札记》。这是一首了不起的散文诗，有差不多50页长。

Zachary Davis: In addition to his journals and political writings, Cesaire was also an accomplished poet.

扎卡里·戴维斯：塞泽尔不仅创办杂志，写政治文章，还是一位出色的诗人。

Kaiama Glover: He publishes this poem, which essentially becomes the rallying cry and the most heartfelt expression of negritude, of global blackness, and I'd say of thinking about Black victimization and marginalization as a phenomenon that is and isn't about race.

卡亚玛·格洛弗：他发表的这首诗基本上成了“黑人性”和全球黑人的集结之音，展现了关于黑人最真切的表达。它把黑人受奴役和边缘化的遭遇作为一种与种族相关、却又更具普遍性的现象去思考。

Kaiama Glover: So Negritude literally has the word “black” in it. But this poem makes plain that Negritude is a mantle that can be born by Jews persecuted by Hitler, by Kafia being persecuted by the South African government, by Valette in India, that it is the mantle that can be worn by people who are persecuted, by white supremacy, by Western Europe, by bourgeois capitalism in ways that do and do not have to do with blackness. So in this sense, his writings during the 1930s and 40s are really pivotal and foundational to global Black studies and to post-colonial studies today.

卡亚玛·格洛弗：从字面上看，“黑人性”带有“黑人”二字。但这首诗明确指出，“黑人性”只是个外壳，可以套用于被希特勒迫害的犹太人、被南非政府迫害的卡菲亚、印度的瓦莱特，可以被套用于任何被白人至上主义、西欧和资产阶级迫害的群体，无论有没有黑皮肤都可以用。在这个意义上看，他在1930和40年代的著作对全球黑人研究起到了关键的作用，为今天的后殖民研究奠下了基础。

Zachary Davis: By 1945, Cesaire’s journal had been shut down by the government, but he continued writing. Around this time, Cesaire met another highly influential person, the French surrealist poet Andre Breton.

扎卡里·戴维斯：1945年，塞泽尔的杂志社被政府关停了，但他还在继续写作。大约在这个时候，塞泽尔遇到了另一个极具影响力的人——法国超现实主义诗人安德烈·布勒东。

Kaiama Glover: Andre Breton, who, like so many other intellectual, is intellectuals has fled Vichy France and finds himself in the Caribbean, finds himself in Martinique at a point and discovers in that weird sense of the term, discovers Aime Cesaire and falls in love with his work and declares him, you know, the greatest French Black poet.

卡亚玛·格洛弗：安德烈·布勒东和其他许多知识分子一样，逃离了维希法国，到了加勒比地区的马提尼克岛，意外地发现了艾梅·塞泽尔，爱上了他的作品，宣称塞泽尔是法国最伟大的黑人诗人。

Zachary Davis: This was a crucial moment because through Breton, Cesaire was able to join the white anti-colonial movement.

扎卡里·戴维斯：这是一个关键时刻。通过布勒东，塞泽尔加入了白人反殖民运动。

Kaiama Glover: Black people can rage against the machine as much as they like, but it really gets the ball rolling when you have white intellectuals and activists on your side.

卡亚玛·格洛弗：黑人可以随心所欲地怒斥国家机器，但当你有白人知识分子和活动家站在你这一边时，你就真的能让事情运转起来。

Zachary Davis: Breton helped Cesaire establish his name in the white intellectual world. And it enabled him to go to Haiti.

扎卡里·戴维斯：布勒东帮助塞泽尔在白人知识界建立了自己的名望。这也让他能够去海地讲学。

Kaiama Glover: And he goes to Haiti with his wife, Suzanne, for a period of about six weeks in 1944. So still during the war where he gives a bunch of lectures to Haitian students there, all of which turn on the extent to which poetry and sort of political consciousness go hand in hand.

卡亚玛·格洛弗：1944年，他和妻子苏珊娜一起去了海地，待了大概六周。当时还是战争期间，他给海地的学生做了一些讲座，主题都是诗歌与政治意识可以在多大程度上并行。

Zachary Davis: Cesaire’s time in Haiti would prove incredibly influential. Haiti’s president at the time was a man named Elie Lescot. He was essentially a dictator, and he was supported by the United States. He ruled Haiti with force and intimidation and heavily censored the media. Cesaire’s lectures inspired many students to become more politically conscious. Two years after he left Haiti, a number of the students he taught were part of a massive student strike.

扎卡里·戴维斯：塞泽尔在海地的讲座起到了惊人的影响力。当时海地的总统是埃利·莱斯科。他是个独裁者，背后有美国的支持。他用武力和恐吓手段来统治海地，并对媒体进行严格的审查。塞泽尔的演讲激励了许多学生变得更有政治意识。在他离开海地后的两年，他所教的一些学生参加了大规模的学生罢工。

Kaiama Glover: That becomes a national strike that within a period of five days in January of 1946, overthrows the dictatorial government in Haiti. And they do so declaring the allegiance of surrealism and communism as their kind of their mantra, their motive force and their call to arms. So there's this incredible series of dominoes that lead from this poet in Martinique to a revolution that happens in Haiti all during the period of and after the Second World War in Europe.

卡亚玛·格洛弗：罢工的浪潮席卷全国。在1946年1月的五天里，海地的独裁政府被推翻。人们宣称这么做是出于超现实主义和共产主义信仰，这也成了他们的口号、动力与号召力的来源。所以在第二次世界大战期间以及之后，出现了一系列惊人的多米诺骨牌式的变化——马提尼克岛的诗人为海地带来了革命。

Zachary Davis: The pen is mightier than the sword. That is amazing.

扎卡里·戴维斯：笔比剑更有力，太了不起了。

Kaiama Glover: It's a fascinating history. This other thing happens while that revolution is happening in 1946 in Haiti, a kind of different a little bit opposite thing is happening in Martinique in 1946. We've got the Second World War. France is essentially on its knees. We've got the United Nations, which is formed in 1945, essentially saying colonialism has to end after this war.

卡亚玛·格洛弗：这是一段迷人的历史。在1946年海地发生革命的同时，马提尼克岛在同一年发生了一件有些相反的事情。二战之后，法国实力大大削弱。1945年，联合国也已经成立了，这基本意味着二战之后殖民主义必须走向终结。

Kaiama Glover: France is super nervous. In 1945, it'll have to give up its colonies. So it goes on this campaign of kind of seduction of the soon to be former colonies by saying, hey, so listen, sorry about some of the stuff that happened with slavery and colonialism, but here's what we were offering. Why don't we rethink this and rejigger this relationship and create what we're going to call the French Union or Françafrique or something along like, you know, we can work on the label.

卡亚玛·格洛弗：法国非常紧张。1945年，它将不得不放弃自己的殖民地。于是它发起了一项运动，对即将成为前殖民地的地区甜言蜜语，说：我们对奴隶制和殖民主义中的一些事情万分抱歉，我们会提供新的方案。不如我们一起重新考虑一下这个问题，重新调整我们的关系，构建出法兰西联盟或法非共荣之类的关系。这个联盟的名字我们可以再想想。

Kaiama Glover: But basically the ideal would be we'll still be united and we'll still sort of be in charge. But you guys will be sovereign, like you'll be sovereign within our empire. Let's figure out a relationship that means you still belong to us. But we're not going to treat you like second class citizens.

卡亚玛·格洛弗：但最基本的是，我们仍然是统一的，我们会统领大家，但你们也将拥有主权，就好比你还在我们的帝国中，但你是有主权的。我们一起来探索出一种关系，让你们仍然是我们的一部分，但我们不会把你们当作二等公民。

Zachary Davis: At this point France had colonies in Africa, Southeast Asia, and the Carribean. By 1954, North Vietnam gained its independence from France. The majority of France’s colonies among the African nations did not want to stay under France’s rulership and by 1960 all of France’s colonies in Africa were independent.

扎卡里·戴维斯：此时，法国在非洲、东南亚和加勒比海都有殖民地。1954年，越南北方从法国独立出去。法国在非洲的大多数殖民地都不愿意留在法国的统治之下。到了1960年，非洲的所有法属殖民地都独立了。

Kaiama Glover: But what happens in 1946 in Martinique is that Aime Cesaire believes that this is possible and he negotiates a transformation of Martinique from a colony of France into what's called a Department of France, which it remains to this day, Mayotte, Guadeloupe and a few other former French colonies. This is part of what's understood to be or has long been understood to be the unfortunate legacy of Aime Cesaire, but has more recently been recognized as essentially the only thing that he could have done at that time.

卡亚玛·格洛弗：但1946年在马提尼克岛发生的事情是，艾梅·塞泽尔认为法国的提议是可行的。他通过谈判，将马提尼克岛从法国的殖民地变为所谓的法国行省。直到今天它和马约特、瓜德罗普等几个前法国殖民地仍然隶属于法国。很不幸，这是长期以来人们认为艾梅·塞泽尔带来的影响之一。但近年来，也有人认为在当时的环境下，这是他唯一能做的选择。

Zachary Davis: Martinique’s economy was so devastated by colonialism that in a way, they saw this was their only hope. By this point, Cesaire’s name was well established in the political world, and the new Martinique government offered Cesaire a position.

扎卡里·戴维斯：马提尼克岛的经济遭到了殖民主义的严重破坏。从某种程度上说，他们把法国的提议看作经济复苏的唯一希望。那时，塞泽尔在政界已经建立起名望，新的马提尼克岛政府为塞泽尔提供了一个职位。

Kaiama Glover: And it made Cesaire the mayor of Fort-de-France, the capital of Martinique in 1945 and an elected official in the French National Assembly, etc. He ultimately became the head of the French Communist Party in Martinique until he broke with the Communist Party in 1956 over communist racism, at which point he founded the Progressive Party at Martiniuk, which he was the leader of until his death.

卡亚玛·格洛弗：1945年，塞泽尔成为了马提尼克岛首府法兰西堡的市长，同时也成为了法国国民议会的民选官员。他最终成为法国共产党在马提尼克岛的领导人，在1956年因反对种族主义而与该党决裂之前，他一直担任这个职位。之后他在马提尼克岛成立了进步党，去世前一直担任进步党的领导人。

Zachary Davis: Cesaire first published his essay Discourse on Colonialism with a small French publisher in 1950 in Paris. Five years later he further edited the essay and republished with the anticolonial publishing house Presence Africaine.

扎卡里·戴维斯：1950年，塞泽尔在巴黎一家小出版社首次出版了他的《关于殖民主义的话语》一文。五年后，他进一步修改了这篇文章，并在一个名叫“非洲现状”的反殖民主义出版社重新出版。

Zachary Davis: Let's now talk about Discourse on Colonialism. What is he arguing and how does he make these arguments?

扎卡里·戴维斯：现在我们来谈谈《关于殖民主义的话语》吧。他谈了什么，又如何提出了这些论点？

Kaiama Glover: Well, he's arguing in an explicitly anti-colonial stance to start there. This is not some sort of neutral history or account of colonialism. It's a text that's meant to be adamant and radically opposed to the colonial project.

卡亚玛·格洛弗：好吧，他是以明确的反殖民主义立场开始自己的论述。这篇文章并不是在中立地叙述历史或讲述殖民主义，而是要坚决地反对殖民主义。

Zachary Davis: Many of Cesaire’s earlier writings were geared towards those who were being colonized by France. But he wrote this text specifically for the French.

扎卡里·戴维斯：塞泽尔的许多早期著作都面向那些被法国殖民的人。但这次，他特别面向了法国人。

Kaiama Glover: What he is essentially arguing is that there's no decoupling of capitalism and colonialism or specifically racial capitalism and colonialism, and that these two things are, in fact, incompatible with the very idea of the civilizing mission that arguably undergirds the colonial project.

卡亚玛·格洛弗：他的基本观点是，资本主义和殖民主义，特别是种族资本主义和殖民主义本身是没法脱钩的共谋。文明使者这个说法常常被用来支持殖民活动，但实际上，资本主义和殖民主义与传播文明是相悖的。

Zachary Davis: I'd love to know, especially this idea of the civilizing mission and how that was articulated, because what's so powerful about Caesar's journey is that he sort of bought into it was the star of the civilizing mission goes over and then sees that it was hollow the whole time. So how would you characterize how Europeans as a whole, maybe even the French Empire in particular, was describing their motivations regarding their colonies in the, let's say, height of their empire.

扎卡里·戴维斯：我很想了解文明使者这个说法，想知道它是如何被阐释的。古罗马时期，凯撒的征伐活动非常壮大，他自己也相信征伐承担着传播文明的使命，可事实却是从头到尾这不过是空话。您怎么看待整个欧洲、尤其是法兰西帝国在帝国巅峰时期开展殖民活动的动机？

Kaiama Glover: The short and pithy answer would be, you know, racism. Racism is this beautifully elastic concept that really in the end allows for the justification of actions that one might otherwise call out for what they are, which is exploitative, abusive, inhuman or anti- humanist.

卡亚玛·格洛弗：最简短直接的答案是种族主义。种族主义是一个非常灵活的概念。那些剥削的、虐待的、不人道或反人道的行为理应被人们所指责、唾弃，但种族主义却让人们最终可以为这些行为辩护。

Kaiama Glover: The easiest way to answer that, which was is partially an answer is that capital and its successes don't necessarily need a nice story if they're working well in the sense that, yes, of course it is great if the horrible things that are being done can have some nice packaging around them. But at the end of the day, when France becomes a growing industrial nation, is really in a neck and neck relationship of competition with the U.K., a lot can go on without needing a nice narrative to accompany it.

卡亚玛·格洛弗：有一个最简单的方法可以回应种族主义这个问题。如果资本运转良好，那么资本的成功并不依赖于一个漂亮的故事。当然，如果能把骇人的行径包装得漂漂亮亮，这样一个漂亮的故事给人的感觉也可能不错。但归根结底，当法国成为一个成长中的工业国家，可以和英国并驾齐驱的时候，很多事情就不需要什么漂亮的故事来包装了。

Kaiama Glover: So let's just say in some ways it's not as hard as one might imagine to out of one side of one's national mouth, be saying there's a certain understanding of human rights, brotherhood and universal principles of humanism that we dearly hold to except when it comes to Africans. That's fine. That really is fine. And that has been fine since time immemorial. It has had different iterations, but I don't think that it's lessened as a real factor in resolving what might seem to be incommensurable.

卡亚玛·格洛弗：从某些方面看，我们不难想象一个国家一方面宣称自己会坚守人权、博爱等普世人文主义原则，但对非洲却把这些原则抛在一边。这很正常。自古以来就有不少的例子。但尽管种族主义可以要很多不一样的形态，但在处理这些心口不一的国家时，种族主义的因素并不会因为他们的其他行径而真正减少。

Zachary Davis: The other important element was how racism allowed the colonizers to write off people of color as not human or less human.

扎卡里·戴维斯：另一个重要因素是种族主义如何让殖民者把有色人种贬低为没有人性或没有那么多人性的群体。

Kaiama Glover: It's a really nice loophole that allows for nations to be completely full-throated in advocating for Liberté, Égalité, liberty, equality and brotherhood among men. And we see the way that among men clause has existed in relation to women, certainly, which is a kind of lesser man. But in quotes, obviously. But imagine then we're talking about peoples and ethnicities that don't even make it. You know, they don't get to put their toe on the scale of what actually counts as a species in the human race.

卡亚玛·格洛弗：这是一个非常好的漏洞，让各国能完全全力以赴地去倡导人与人之间的自由、平等和博爱。我们看到这些规约中往往会倡导兄弟间的平等友爱。单纯从规约说的兄弟就知道他强调的只是男性之间的关系，而在这个过程中女性被视为“低一等的人”。当然，这个说法是打引号的，是不言而喻的。不过不妨想一下那些尚且没有被真正算作人类的民族和种族。

Kaiama Glover: And let's not forget that much of the 19th century science, things like phrenology, for example, the measurement of heads and skulls is the most well-known example. Much of the 19th century science was about showing Black peoples as some sort of missing link between apes and Europeans and white men and white people.

卡亚玛·格洛弗：我们不要忘了，19世纪的科学很大程度都在为种族主义服务。颅相学、也就是对头骨的测量就是最有名的例子。那时的许多科学研究都被用来证明，黑人是猿人进化为欧洲白人的中间阶段。

Kaiama Glover: What we shift to, I think and this is in France as elsewhere in the North Atlantic, what we shift to is the idea of, OK, we may all be humans, but certain kinds of humans and we can call it race or we can call it things that are more palatable, like, you know, culture, that these things make those humans incapable of self-control, self-governance, rational thought, all of the things that, again, cement the legitimacy of a European project of civilizing that rather than admit to what it is, which is capitalist exploitation leads with, it's prettier face, which is we are here to help. We see a mess and we're going to fix it. And if that comes with some advantages for France or for Europe more broadly, well, that's great. I mean, after all, who are we? But at the same time, there's a trade off because what we're offering is some measure of compensation for what we're extracting.

卡亚玛·格洛弗：在法国和北大西洋的其他地方，人们的观念慢慢转变，承认了所有种族或许都是人类，但同时人们又觉得有些人类和种族——或者用更易于接受的说法说，是某些文化让这些群体无法自我控制、自我管理、理性思考。所有这些说法再次巩固了欧洲所谓的“文明传播活动”的合法性。资本剥削的本质被掩盖了，露出来的是一张漂亮的脸蛋，假惺惺地说：我们过来是为了帮助你们。我们发现了一个烂摊子，就过来收拾了。如果这对法国或整个欧洲有些好处，那就太好了。毕竟我们又能是什么人呢？但这同时也是一种交易，因为我们所提供的是在向你们补偿我们所获取的东西。

Zachary Davis: When Cesaire published Discourse on Colonialism, he was able to take advantage of the rawness of Europe in the aftermath of WWII. Europe was no longer the great civilizing, enlightened continent. Cesair was able to show the parallels between what happened in WWII and what was happening with European colonialism.

扎卡里·戴维斯：塞泽尔出版《关于殖民主义的话语》的时候，刚好借助了二战后欧洲的一片废墟的状态。欧洲不再是彰显伟大文明的开明大陆。塞泽尔因而可以指出欧洲殖民主义和二战中发生的事情有何相似之处。

Kaiama Glover: So he's writing in this moment following the Second World War, where France in particular in Europe more broadly, has been something of a lesson in terms of what occupation feels like, what being colonized feels like, and where there was this near miss vis a vis the Nazism and Hitler. And so the sort of main thrust and what I see is and many see as the brilliance of this text is that he hit he harnesses that recent memory, that recent European memory of this near miss and near very evident degradation and humiliation to insist in Discourse on Colonialism that what happened with Adolf Hitler was, in fact, not an aberration with respect to the Enlightenment cum colonial project, but rather its culminating force.

卡亚玛·格洛弗：这篇文章写于二战之后。这时法国乃至欧洲大部分地区都领教了被占领的滋味，差点让纳粹主义和希特勒得手。这篇文章的主旨以及我和许多人所认为的精彩之处在于，利用了最近期欧洲人对于几近失败、堕落、蒙羞的记忆，而且文章坚持认为，阿道夫·希特勒的侵略并不是启蒙运动和殖民项目发展中的异常现象，而是其力量发展到了巅峰的结果。

Kaiama Glover: And so with this, this is an incredibly provocative thing to be saying. Five years after the close of World War II, it's toe's right up to the line of you brought this on yourselves, right. He never goes so far as to say this. But what he does do is take the space created by France's vulnerability to say, really, let's look at history and let's look at the treatment of colonized subjects, brown and black and Asian in the Americas, in the Far East, in Latin America, in Africa, et..

卡亚玛·格洛弗：这样说来，这个说法很叫人难以置信，也很有挑衅意味。二战结束后的五年，他竟然宣称这都是你自作自受。当然他没有这么夸张，没有真的这么说。但他确实利用了法国势力衰落之后带来的机遇，让我们审视历史，审视美洲、远东、拉美、非洲等地的棕色、黑色和黄色皮肤被殖民者的遭遇。

Kaiama Glover: And let's look practically at what was happening under colonialism and see if we don't notice some similarities to what was happening under the Hitlerian project of Nazism. And this is an incredibly, as I said, provocative and risque narrative to be presenting in 1950 and then again in 1955.

卡亚玛·格洛弗：让我们切实看看殖民主义下发生的事情，看看我们能否注意到它和希特勒纳粹主义统治下发生的事情有一些相似之处。就像我刚刚说的，这是一个叫人难以置信、很有挑衅意味的叙述，它于1950年提出，五年之后被再次提出。

Zachary Davis: So after World War II, how does the discourse of colonialism change? What were those years after World War II looking like?

扎卡里·戴维斯：二战后，殖民主义的话语是如何变化的？二战后的那些年是什么样的？

Kaiama Glover: I mean, I would send you straight to the opening discourse by Charles de Gaulle in 1944 at the conference in Brazzaville, where he gets together, a group of colonial administrators, all white Europeans that come together to puzzle through precisely what you just asked, notably, OK, it's 1944, we're meeting here in Bronzeville because, well, France is occupied. So that's already saying quite a bit. But we're meeting here, more importantly in some ways, to think about what our colonial future is going to look like.

卡亚玛·格洛弗：我们可以看看1944年戴高乐在布拉柴维尔会议上的开场白。在那场会议中，戴高乐和管理着各个殖民地的欧洲白人聚集在一起，想要解决你问的这个问题。想象现在是1944年，法国被占领了，所以我们在布拉柴维尔开会。这已经说明了很多问题，但我们在这儿开会，更重要的是思考未来我们的殖民地会是什么样子。

Kaiama Glover: And so that discourse talks about colonialism. You know, it had its hiccups and there were things that were done that very likely shouldn't have been done. But they were done in a spirit of generosity and fellow feeling that they were done to bring a people encased in darkness into light. They were done with the best intentions apart, as we talked about earlier, for some bad apples that that made the whole thing look bad, perhaps.

卡亚玛·格洛弗：他谈到了殖民主义。会议还出现了一些小状况，发生了一些本不应该发生的事情。但本着慷慨的精神和将被黑暗包裹的民族带入光明之中的同伴情谊，这些事情还是做了。意图都像刚刚说的那样，非常之好，但恐怕有些老鼠屎坏了一锅好粥。

Kaiama Glover: But it is not only our hope, but it is our obligation not to release our colonies into the wide, wide world of geopolitics. They are not prepared. They are not capable. No more so than they were really since we found them. It is our responsibility to facilitate some sort of transition for them that will involve re-educate adamant re-education, the establishment of clear liaisons between a colonial indigenous elite and French newly or differently colonial power. So these are commercial relations, social, political and other relations.

卡亚玛·格洛弗：但我们不仅希望，而且有义务不要把我们的殖民地释放到地缘政治的广阔舞台中。他们还没有准备好，也没有能力。自从我们发现他们以来，他们也没有真正做到这一点。我们有责任为他们提供过渡方案，坚定不移地对他们实施再教育，在殖民地的本土精英和法国新的或不同的殖民力量之间建立明确的联系，包括商业、社会、政治和其他方面的联系。

Kaiama Glover: In other words, we need to refigure a relationship that we want to remain rooted in the paternalistic ideals of the civilizing mission and colonialism. But without all of the yuckiness that we now know, you know, isn't going to work for the second half of the 20th century and beyond because of the whole Hitler situation.

卡亚玛·格洛弗：换句话说，我们需要重新塑造一种关系，我们希望这种关系仍然根植于文明使命和殖民主义的家长式理想中。但是鉴于希特勒造成的整个局面，如果不采取我们如今所知道的讨厌措施，这种关系在20世纪下半叶乃至之后都行不通。

Zachary Davis: So was Cesaire’s work intended to help colonial subjects say no? How much of his intention was to foster this consciousness that you are in fact free?

扎卡里·戴维斯：塞泽尔的文章是为了帮助殖民地说不吗？他的写作目的中，有多少是为了培养这种意识，让殖民地人民意识到他们其实是自由的？

Kaiama Glover: There is a way in which Cesaire holds fast to the belief that the colonial ship can be turned around or at least holds fast to the efficacy of trying to work in that direction, as opposed to radical independence that would divorce the former colonies from their former imperial rulers. And he, in this respect, is something of a pragmatist. We have to keep in mind the extent to which the centuries of colonialism had absolutely devastated local economies, cultures, ethnicities, tribal relations, understandings of self and a history that it had really—some not annihilated entirely, but certainly deeply disturbed and, yes, devastated. And so the world that Cesaire seems to be imagining is a world that requires first acknowledgement of the crime of that of that project. Really importantly, it involves having the North Atlantic in the former empire recognized what it had done.

卡亚玛·格洛弗：塞泽尔坚信能让殖民地的船掉头，至少朝着这个方向努力是有效的。但他反对将前殖民地与前帝国统治者彻底分离开的激进独立运动。在这方面，他是一个实用主义者。我们必须牢记，几个世纪以来殖民主义对当地经济、文化、民族、部落关系、历史和人们对自我的理解造成了绝对的破坏。即便有些东西没有完全被摧毁，但也受到了严重的干扰与破坏。在塞泽尔构想的世界中，人们需要首先认清殖民活动酿成的罪恶。最重要的是，要让北大西洋地区的前帝国承认自己做过的坏事。

Kaiama Glover: And I would argue in a really prescient way he does that so that those things are not repeated. So there is a way in which Discourse on Colonialism and so there's attitude more broadly is an appeal to France to do better for the sake of everyone.

卡亚玛·格洛弗：我想说他很有先见之明。他强调了这一点，这样历史就不会重演。所以《关于殖民主义的话语》展现了一种更宏大的态度，那就是呼吁法国为了大家的利益做更好的事情。

Zachary Davis: Yeah, it does seem that an important part of this text, it isn't just making a kind of moral claim against racist attitudes, but it's looking closely at the role of capitalism. And what is his argument about the particular way there's exploitative relationships because of the racial dimension?

扎卡里·戴维斯：没错，这确实是这篇文章的一个重要部分。它不仅仅是提出反种族主义的道德主张，更仔细研究了资本主义的作用。那么他觉得，种族因素以何种方式导致了剥削关系的产生？

Kaiama Glover: He ends with the assertion that civilization as a whole, in a sense, not just a civilization in the neutral sense that a civilized humanity is one hundred percent incompatible with capitalism, that there is no such thing as a not exploitative capitalism, that there is no such thing as some countries providing resources and labor and others providing management, that that is a system that is absolutely broken and de facto not humanist and problematic.

卡亚玛·格洛弗：他最后断言，在某种意义上讲，整体的文明不仅仅是中立意义上的文明。一个文明的人类与资本主义是百分之百不相容的。不存在不剥削的资本主义；不存在一些国家提供资源和劳动力，而其他国家提供管理，那是一个绝对破碎的、非人文主义且问题重重的系统。

Kaiama Glover: Capitalism will capitalize, capitalism will transform honest relationships of labor and production into a skewed hierarchy is mastery and exploitation. And there's no way around that. And if you go through this document, through Discourse on Colonialism, the buzzwords are there throughout. It's incredibly important. And he hits the note proletariat, bourgeois, capitalists over and over again to make clear that enemy number one for him and what must be done away with immediately is capitalism, particularly the kind of capitalism that is coming up through the United States.

卡亚玛·格洛弗：资本主义会将事物资本化，资本主义会将真诚的劳动和生产关系转变为倾斜的等级制度，即掌控和剥削。这是没有办法的事。如果你翻翻这篇文章，翻翻《关于殖民主义的话语》，会看到许多流行的术语贯穿其中。这非常重要。他一次又一次地提到了无产阶级、资产阶级和资本家，来表明他的头号敌人以及必须立即消除的东西是资本主义，特别是美国出现的那种资本主义。

Kaiama Glover: It’s a kind of undignified, steam rolling capitalism that is full with its own successes of the recent war and really ready to globalize on a scale that hasn't been seen. And so he's closing this document by trying to strike the fear of on would otherwise say god, but in this case of America, into the hearts and minds again of the French.

卡亚玛·格洛弗：这是一种无耻的却又蒸蒸日上的资本主义，从近期的战争中攫取成功，而且真正准备以一种前所未有的规模进行全球化。所以在这篇文章结尾，他试图将对上帝的恐惧、在这种情况下是对美国的恐惧印到法国人的心里。

Zachary Davis: Does he have a vision of or a way to organize an economy and a political community that he can articulate? Can you give us a name to a way of life that supports that human flourishing in his view?

扎卡里·戴维斯：他有没有阐述自己在经济和政治社会组织方式上的构想？您可以跟我们讲讲，在他看来，什么样的生活方式能促使人类繁荣发展？

Kaiama Glover: What we have consistently is the condemnation of capitalism that is explicit and clear. There’s a belief in what he calls in Discourse on Colonialism “ante-capitalism”—“ante” as opposed to “anti”, which he attributes to an African or at least non-white European world view that preexisted capitalism. And that might be a resource for rewriting geopolitics in the coming world. But he doesn't he's not explicit about it in any way.

卡亚玛·格洛弗：一直以来我们都清晰且明确地谴责着资本主义。在《关于殖民主义的话语》中，他提到了“前资本主义”——注意是“前资本主义”而不是“反资本主义”。他将其归为一种在资本主义到来之前就存在的非洲或至少非欧洲白人的世界观。这或许可以成为未来世界重写地缘政治的源头，但他并没有以任何方式明确叙述这一点。

Kaiama Glover: The work that he ends up doing because he does become a politician as he’s mayor. He's then the deputy of the French Communist Party, then starts his own political party in Martinique. So he is invested in a politics. But in as much as this is a never a politics of explicit independence, it has its limitations in that respect. And there is no sort of political agenda that's made clear beyond radical revolution, which is arguably about deconstructing, so a process of burning it all down in order to lay the terrain for something else, but that something else is not necessarily articulated with great clarity in his work.

卡亚玛·格洛弗：塞泽尔最后成为了一名政治家。他担任了市长，成为了法国共产党的代表，后来又在马提尼克岛创建了自己的政党。所以他投身到政治之中。然而在这方面他有局限性，从没发动过明确的独立政治一样。除了激进的革命之外，他没有提出明确的政治议程。而激进的政治革命仅仅关于解构，是一个把所有一切都推倒，来为其他东西腾出空间的过程。但这个其他东西并没有完全清晰地呈现在他的作品中。

Zachary Davis: How did the book land and what would you say has been its legacy?

扎卡里·戴维斯：这本书是如何成功的？您觉得它带给我们哪些影响？

Kaiama Glover: It's at the root of a genealogy of anti-colonialism. It provides like a theoretical base, a political base and a point of departure for, I'd say, debates in the present moment about different forms of colonialism and of neo-colonialism, about blackness and to what extent blackness is a racial category or metaphor for a social class or culture. It continues to be utilized as a helpful way of thinking about how otherness is constructed, even against reason, how what are the discourses and rhetorics that have to be put into place to justify the things that we were talking about earlier in terms of exploitation and inhumane treatment and inhuman treatment of the so-called other.

卡亚玛·格洛弗：它是反殖民主义谱系的源头，为我们如今提供了一个用于探讨许多议题的理论基础、政治基础和出发点，这些议题往往关于不同形式的殖民主义和新殖民主义，关于黑人以及黑人在多大程度上是一个种族类别、社会阶层或文化隐喻。它继续被用作一种有益的思考方式，思考他者是如何以有悖于常理的方式构建起来的，思考哪些话语和修辞被用来为我们刚才谈到的对他人的剥削和非人道待遇做辩护。

Kaiama Glover: So Cesaire, this is not a relic or an artifact. That's part of a history of anti-colonialism. It's very much in the present. It's still discussed not just within the walls of the academy. I would say, but it's a familiar text in the realms of activism and well beyond the Francophone context. It is a part of Latin American discourses of anticolonialism as well. That happened much later.

卡亚玛·格洛弗：塞泽尔为我们展现的不是什么遗迹或文物。它们是反殖民主义历史的一部分，但很大程度上仍存在于当下。它们仍然被讨论，而且不仅仅是在象牙塔里被讨论。在社会活动领域，大家都很熟悉这篇文章。它也不仅仅被用于探讨法语国家的情况，还成为了拉美反殖民主义话语的一部分。不过这是晚些时候出现的情况。

Zachary Davis: Cesaire passed away in 2008. He was 94 years old. After Discourse on Colonialism, he continued writing and published many plays, poetry, and other post-colonial literature.

扎卡里·戴维斯：2008年，塞泽尔去世，享年94岁。写完《关于殖民主义的话语》之后，他继续写作，出版了许多戏剧、诗歌等后殖民主义文学作品。

Kaiama Glover: But this text, this and I'd say two or three of his other texts, but this one really stands on its own, as Cesaire’s offering to the desire for truly universalized human and global freedom to this day. It's wonderful that a poet wrote this influential text because it means that it's a delight to read.

卡亚玛·格洛弗：他的其他两三部著作也很棒，但这篇文章可以说是独领风骚。它寄托着塞泽尔一直以来对人类平等和全球自由的希冀。这个一篇由诗人写就的美妙且富有影响力的文章，读起来叫人心旷神怡。

Zachary Davis: Capitalism has profoundly shaped the world. But for a long time, those who benefited most from it ignored the destruction it left in its wake. In Discourse on Colonialism, Aime Cesaire turned our global gaze away from the mere profit and wonder of capitalism and towards its more brutal realities.

扎卡里·戴维斯：资本主义深刻地塑造了这个世界。但在很长一段时间里，那些从它那里获得最大利益的人忽视了它带来的破坏。在《关于殖民主义的话语》中，艾梅·塞泽尔将全球的目光从资本主义的净利润和奇迹转向与之相伴的更残酷的现实。

Kaiama Glover: It makes it impossible in such an explicit way for certain lies of imperialism to hold and the explicitness with which he does deconstructed, those lies are still deployable today like you can still use the words that Cesaire gave us. Colonialism does not equal civilization, but equals brutalization and de-civilization of the colonized subject and of the colonizer. This idea that it is a perversion of our humanity had not been said in that way before and can continue to be said.

卡亚玛·格洛弗：它极其明确地揭穿了帝国主义的某些谎言，对其进行了明确的解构。这些谎言在今天仍然被人运用，而你也仍然可以用塞泽尔教给我们的话揭穿它们。殖民主义不等于文明，反而等同于残暴，等同于破坏殖民地主体和殖民者的文明。在塞泽尔之前，从没有人指出殖民主义是对人性的扭曲。塞泽尔这么说了，如今我们还可以继续这么说。

Zachary Davis: Writ Large is a production of Ximalaya. Writ Large is produced by Jack Pombriant, Liza French, and me, Zachary Davis. Script editing is by Galen Beebe. We get help from Feiran Du, Ariel Liu, and Monica Zhang. Our theme song is by Ian Coss. Don’t miss an episode. Subscribe today in the Ximalaya app. Thanks for listening. See you next time.

扎卡里·戴维斯：本节目由喜马拉雅独家制作播出。感谢您的收听，我们下期再见！