【英文翻译版63】佩里克莱斯·鲁维思：《魔山》

英文文稿+中文翻译 ​

Zachary Davis: In the early 20th century, you could make a strong claim that Germany was the leading country on earth. Their scientists and artists were the envy of the world. Enlightenment ideals of reason and progress dominated. The bourgeois class was flourishing and Germany’s industrialized economy was the strongest in Europe. Life was good...or so it seemed.

扎卡里·戴维斯：20世纪初，你完全有理由说德国是世界大国。他们有着令人钦羡的科学家和艺术家，推崇理性与进步的启蒙思想蔚然成风，资产阶级日益壮大，工业也位于欧洲前列。生活很美好……或者说，看上去很美好。

Zachary Davis: In the midst of this apparent golden age, darker forces of nationalism and class resentment were brewing beneath the surface. In addition, a tuberculosis pandemic had a firm grip on Europe and the United States. On average, one in seven people died from tuberculosis in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. The German author Thomas Mann used this pandemic as the backdrop for his 1924 novel, The Magic Mountain.

扎卡里·戴维斯：显然，这是个黄金时代。然而在表面之下，涌动着民族主义和阶级对立的暗流。除此之外，肺结核也在欧洲和美国蔓延。19世纪末20世纪初，大概有七分之一的人死于肺结核。德国作家托马斯·曼把这个流行病设为他1924年的小说《魔山》的背景。

Pericles Lewis: Mann was a great novelist because he took a fairly modern techniques, sort of slightly experimental techniques, but he applied them to the major issues of his time, to the problem of to what degree can we believe in rationality, to the problem of self-interest and love and lust and desire and how they blind our search for truth, to the problem of death.

佩里克莱斯·鲁维思：托马斯·曼是一位伟大的小说家。他运用了非常现代的、有些实验性的技巧来探讨那个时代的主要问题，比如我们可以在多大程度上相信理性，还有私利、爱情、情欲和私欲等问题，以及它们如何阻碍我们探寻真理，他还探讨了死亡的问题。

Pericles Lewis: So it's just one of those novels that it's very encyclopedic. It sort of covers everything in the world and it covers, in a sort of funny, ironic way. You have to get into the pace of the novel. It's not a page turner in that traditional sense of, oh, a thriller like what's going to happen next. But it's a very, very deep novel. And it it's really merits rereading. So my name is Pericles Lewis, I'm a comparative literature professor at Yale University.

佩里克莱斯·鲁维思：这是一部百科全书式的小说。它以一种有趣且颇具讽刺意味的方式探讨了世界上的所有事物。你不得不跟上小说的步伐。它不是那种传统意义上的惊险小说，让你渴望知道接下来发生了什么。这是一本非常非常深刻的小说，值得反复阅读。我叫佩里克莱斯·鲁维思，是耶鲁大学的比较文学教授。

Zachary Davis: The novel is set in a sanatorium for tuberculosis patients high up in the Swiss Alps. The main character, Hans Castorp, initially went up to the sanatorium to visit his cousin who was being treated there. But while visiting, Hans himself fell sick and ended up staying in the sanatorium with his cousin for the next seven years.

扎卡里·戴维斯：小说的背景设置在瑞士阿尔卑斯山上的肺结核疗养院。起初，主人公汉斯·卡斯托普去疗养院看望他的表兄，表兄正在那里接受治疗。但在探望期间，汉斯本自己也生病了，于是之后的七年里他和表兄一起住在疗养院。

Pericles Lewis: But the thing about the sanatorium is they're not doing anything else. They're just thinking about death all the time. And so that makes death a little bit more real for them. It makes life a little bit less real for them because they don't have jobs. They don't have much to do with their time.

佩里克莱斯·鲁维思：在疗养院，他们没有事情可做，一直在思考死亡。这样一来，死亡对他们来说更加真切了，而生活对他们来说反倒不那么真切了——他们没有工作要做，手头有大把空闲的时间。

Pericles Lewis: So it's like being on a constant vacation and imagine a whole life that was just being on vacation. It wouldn't be very meaningful. So it's that sense that with nothing else to do, they worry about death, they worry about love and lust and flirting with one another. And they try and figure out philosophies that make the whole world meaningful. But they discover that none of these philosophies really works in a society that's sort of teetering on the brink.

佩里克莱斯·鲁维思：他们就像在一直休假。想象一下一辈子都在休假的感觉吧，这种生活不是很有意义。既然无事可做，他们就开始担心有关死亡、爱情、欲望，以至于互相调情等问题。他们试图找到一种哲学来赋予整个世界意义。但他们发现，在一个摇摇欲坠的环境中，这些哲学都无法真正发挥作用。

Zachary Davis: Welcome to Writ Large, a podcast about how books change the world. I’m Zachary Davis. In each episode, I talk with one of the world’s leading scholars about one book that changed the course of history. For this episode, I sat down with Pericles Lewis to discuss Thomas Mann’s The Magic Mountain.

扎卡里·戴维斯：欢迎收听：改变你和世界的100书，在这里我们为大家讲述改变世界的书籍。我是扎卡里·戴维斯。每一集，我都会和一位世界顶尖学者讨论一本影响历史进程的书。在本集，我和佩里克莱斯·鲁维思教授一起讨论托马斯·曼的《魔山》。

Zachary Davis: Could you give us a portrait of this author, his formative experiences, his background, and what you think led to the insight to write a book like this?

扎卡里·戴维斯：您能给我们介绍一下这位作家吗？他的生平、背景是怎样的？您觉得他为什么想要写这本书？

Pericles Lewis: He was a, you know, fairly traditional German writer from a wealthy family, merchant family in the north of Germany, but his mother was Brazilian, so he always was a little bit out of the norm in that way in Germany, in the late 19th century.

佩里克莱斯·鲁维思：托马斯·曼是一位非常传统的德国作家。他出生于德国北部一个富裕的商人家庭，但他的母亲是巴西人。所以在19世纪后期的德国，他总是有点格格不入。

Zachary Davis: Thomas Mann was born in 1875 in Lübeck, Germany. He studied literature, art history and economics at Ludwig Maximillians University of Munich and the Technical University of Munich. After his schooling, Mann got a job at the South German Fire Insurance Company where he stayed for about a year. He began writing for a satirical weekly magazine called Simplicissimus and published his first story in 1898. Mann continued writing and published several short stories before branching out into novels, essays, and novellas.

扎卡里·戴维斯：1875年，托马斯·曼出生在德国吕贝克。他曾在路德维希-马克西米利安-慕尼黑大学和慕尼黑工业大学学习文学、艺术史和经济学。毕业后，他在南德火灾保险公司工作，前后大约一年。1898年，他开始为讽刺性周刊《痴儿》撰稿，并发表了他的第一个故事。他继续写作，发表了几篇短篇小说，之后开始涉足长篇小说、杂文和中篇小说。

Pericles Lewis: Early in his career, he wrote a great realist novel about 19th century German families called Buddenbrooks. And then just before the First World War, he wrote one of his greatest stories, Death in Venice, which is about the cholera plague hitting Venice. But it's also about the the love or lust that an aging artist has for a young boy that he meets in Venice. Mann himself was gay, but he was married and he had children and so on. And so he he struggled with his homosexuality. And that's a theme in a lot of his books.

佩里克莱斯·鲁维思：在写作生涯早期，他创作了一本不错的现实主义小说，名叫《布登勃洛克一家》，讲述了19世纪德国一个家庭的故事。在第一次世界大战之前，他写下了他最伟大的故事之一，名叫《威尼斯之死》。这个故事发生在霍乱肆虐下的威尼斯，讲述了一个上了年纪的艺术家在威尼斯遇到了一位少年，心生爱慕。曼本人是同性恋者，但结了婚，还生了孩子。他的同性恋取向让他挣扎不已，成了他许多书的主题。

Pericles Lewis: The Magic Mountain comes in a period he started writing it before the First World War. It took him 12 years to finish it. So even though it's a seven year plot, it took even longer than that to write the book. And he finished it in 1924, which is the height of what we call modernism, sort of a movement to write more experimental novels that explore the mind, the unconscious, that kind of topic. And later in his life, he wrote even more, ever more symbolic novels that ranged across the whole of German and European culture. He won the Nobel Prize in 1929.

佩里克莱斯·鲁维思：第一次世界大战之前，他开始撰写《魔山》，前后花了十二年才完成。小说里的时间跨度为七年，但现实中撰写的时间甚至更久。1924年，他完成了这部《魔山》。这部小说被我们视作现代主义的丰碑。现代主义是一场文学运动，旨在写出更具实验性的小说，来探索意识和潜意识之类的主题。后来，他写了更多象征主义小说，探讨了德国乃至整个欧洲的文化。1929年，他获得了诺贝尔奖。

Zachary Davis: During World War I, Mann supported Germany’s conservative emperor Kaiser Wilhelm II. But in the early 1920s, he shifted his support to the German Democratic party and the Social Democrats. Over the next decade, he was a vocal opponent to the Nazi party. Mann gave lectures and wrote essays that attacked Nazism and urged the working class in Germany to resist the Nazi party. This made him a target for the Nazis when they rose to power in 1933. Germany was no longer safe for Mann.

扎卡里·戴维斯：第一次世界大战期间，托马斯·曼支持德国保守一派，也就是皇帝威廉二世。但到了20世纪20年代初，他转而支持德国民主党和社会民主党。在接下来的十年中，他公开反对纳粹党。他授课并撰写文章，抨击纳粹主义，呼吁德国工人阶级抵抗纳粹党。这让他成了1933年纳粹上台后的打击对象。德国对他来说不再安全。

Pericles Lewis: He wound up coming to the United States. He refused to answer questions about communists. And so he was seen as a communist sympathizer. But he was really more of a mainstream liberal for most of his life. And he never moved back to Germany after leaving around the time that Hitler came to power.

佩里克莱斯·鲁维思：最终，他来到了美国。他拒绝回答有关共产党的问题，于是被视为共产主义的支持者。但实际上，他一生中大部分时间都是主流的自由主义者。希特勒上台之后，他再也没有搬回德国。

Zachary Davis: World War I and II left much of Europe in ruins. But before the wars, Europe was at the height of its influence and prestige as a center for art, science, and culture. But these successes weren’t enjoyed by everyone. The bourgeoisie were prospering, but the working classes were struggling and resentful.

扎卡里·戴维斯：第一次世界大战和第二次世界大战摧毁了欧洲大部分地区。而在战争之前，欧洲是艺术、科学和文化的中心，影响力和威望正值巅峰。然而并非所有人都享受到这些成功。资产阶级繁荣了，但是工人阶级却苦苦挣扎、愤懑不平。

Zachary Davis: What were the social forces driving that suspicion of bourgeois victory and stability? What became untenable and what, you know, what was behind those changes?

扎卡里·戴维斯：哪些社会因素导致人们怀疑资产阶级的胜利与他们带来的稳定？是什么变得不稳定了？这些变化背后的原因是什么？

Pericles Lewis: Certainly rapid industrialization and the changes in employment that resulted in secularization and loss of sense of connection to a particular faith, those were very important. I think political causes were also pretty preeminent in the teens and 20s and 30s. That is, the old governments that tended to be empires ruled by kings and queens and emperors were falling apart. Nationalistic movements were trying to instead create societies that were based on, you know, people who are like each other living together.

佩里克莱斯·鲁维思：显然，工业化迅速推进，就业情况的变化破坏了人们与特定信仰之间的联系，导致了社会的世俗化。这些都是非常重要的因素。此外，在1910到30年代，政治也是一个非常显要的因素。由国王、女王或皇帝统治的帝国正在瓦解，民族主义运动蓬勃发展，人们试图建立一个由一群相似的人组成的社会。

Pericles Lewis: And so all these old empires were falling apart, but nationalism is a pretty powerful and dangerous kind of force. And it can have productive qualities to it, but it can also be very destructive. So you saw that destructiveness in the First World War in the 20s when Mann was writing this, a lot of nationalist movements were pressing their claims and ultimately resulting in the rise of fascism. And of course, the Second World War was not very far off.

佩里克莱斯·鲁维思：所有旧帝国都瓦解了。但民族主义是一种非常强大却又非常危险的力量。它可能有建设性，但也可能有破坏性。在托曼斯·曼撰写《魔山》期间，你就能看到它带来的破坏。这就是20世纪的第一次世界大战。许多民族主义运动强化着它们的观点，最终导致了法西斯主义的兴起。当然，没过多久又爆发了第二次世界大战。

Pericles Lewis: So I think the the immediate political problems of an old order that couldn't keep up with the modern industrial world after the First World War are probably the biggest cause of that. That feeling of uncertainty and unease.

佩里克莱斯·鲁维思：我觉得，第一次世界大战后，旧秩序不再适用于现代工业世界，这个紧迫的政治问题或许是人们感到不确定、惶恐不安的最主要原因。

Zachary Davis: Also feeding into this unease was the tuberculosis pandemic that paralyzed both Europe and the United States.

扎卡里·戴维斯：造成这种不安情绪的还有肆虐欧洲和美国的肺结核。

Pericles Lewis: Tuberculosis is caused by a bacterium, but it spreads very easily. And even today, last year, it killed one point four million people in the developing world, So it's still a very serious disease. It is treatable if you catch it, if you identify it quickly enough. But the problem is in large parts of the world, people don't and they don't get the treatment. So at this time and in the teens and 20s of the last century in Europe, it was still a pretty serious problem in the wealthier parts of the world.

佩里克莱斯·鲁维思：肺结核是由一种细菌引起的，很容易传播，甚至如今也是这样。去年，发展中国家有四百万人因感染肺结核去世。感染肺结核后，如果及时诊断治疗，那么是可以治愈的。但问题在于，世界大部分地区的人们都没有得到治疗。在托马斯·曼那个年代，也就是1910、20年代的欧洲，在世界上较发达的地区，肺结核还是个非常棘手的疾病。

Zachary Davis: There were no antibiotics for tuberculosis at the time, so treatments included bleedings, rest, exercise, and a good diet. In certain parts of Europe, a common treatment was to take patients to a sanitorium up in the mountains where they could isolate themselves from the general public. Tuberculosis infects a person’s lungs, so the belief was that being up in the mountains where the air was a bit thinner and a bit cleaner would help one recover faster. Mann and his wife visited a sanatorium in Davos, Switzerland a few years before WWI. This became the setting for The Magic Mountain.

扎卡里·戴维斯：当时没有用于治疗肺结核的抗生素，所以治疗方法一般是放血、休息、运动、保持良好饮食。在欧洲某些地区，一种常见的治疗方法是将患者带到山上的疗养院，与大众隔离开来。肺结核会感染一个人的肺部。人们认为，在空气较为清新稀薄的山上生活有助于病人更快地康复。第一次世界大战前几年，托曼斯·曼和他的妻子来到了瑞士达沃斯的疗养院。《魔山》的场景便设置在了这儿。

Pericles Lewis: Now, the thing about this novel is most of the people don't recover. Most of them wind up dying. But that takes over a course of seven years. Many of them last the whole seven years, but a lot of them just gradually fall off and die. So it's a bit although the novel was inspired by a visit to an actual tuberculosis sanatorium, it's also a little bit of an allegory for European culture right before the First World War.

佩里克莱斯·鲁维思：小说里的大多数人都没有康复，最后都奄奄一息。前后过去了七年。这七年里，不少人撑了下去，但也有很多人渐渐虚弱，最后死去。尽管这部小说的灵感来自现实中在肺结核疗养院的经历，但它也是一战前欧洲文化的寓言。

Pericles Lewis: That is, there's all these people who have leisure, their sort of bourgeois upper middle class people who have income. They don't have much to do. And they just sit around and they bicker. They have love affairs. They have arguments about philosophy, about death. And gradually, one by one, they drop off and die.

佩里克莱斯·鲁维思：所有这些人都有闲暇，他们是资产阶级，是中上层阶级，有稳定收入。他们无事可做，只是坐在那儿争吵。他们谈情说爱，争论着哲学、死亡等问题。渐渐地，他们一个接一个地衰败凋零。

Pericles Lewis: And so it's a pretty sad picture of European culture at the beginning, just before the First World War. And in a way, it might be an allegory for how did the war happen, because you have this culture that seems the most advanced and enlightened and then it leads to the worst war in history up until that time.

佩里克莱斯·鲁维思：这勾勒出了一战前夕欧洲文化令人伤心的景象。从某种意义上说，它是一个关于战争如何爆发的寓言。你似乎有着最先进、最开明的文化，可是这种文化导致了前所未有的惨烈战争。

Zachary Davis: Would you give us a basic plot summary?

扎卡里·戴维斯：您能给我们概括一下基本情节吗？

Pericles Lewis: Basically, Castorp comes up into the mountains to visit his cousin Joachim, who's a soldier, and he's got tuberculosis and he's thinks, oh, well, Joachim will get better soon and then we'll go back home. But Jochem doesn't get better. And what happens that Hans Castorp, the main character, gets sick himself and he doesn't believe it at first when they tell him, but gradually accepts that he has tuberculosis, too.

佩里克莱斯·鲁维思：主人公汉斯·卡斯托普上山探望表兄约阿希姆。约阿希姆是一名士兵，得了肺结核。汉斯觉得，表兄很快会好起来，然后兄弟俩就能回家了。但是约阿希姆并没有好转，主人公汉斯反而也染病了。得知这个消息后，起初他并不相信，但渐渐地他接受了染上肺结核的事实。

Zachary Davis: The chief doctor and director of the sanatorium is a man named Dr. Behrens. Second in command is a man named Dr Krokowski. Dr. Behrens encourages the patients not to move around too much and just try to rest and recover. And that’s just what Hans and Joachim do.

扎卡里·戴维斯：疗养院的首席医生兼院长是贝伦斯，他的助理是克洛可夫斯基。贝伦斯大夫建议病人不要四处走动，要尽量休息，慢慢恢复。汉斯和约阿希姆听从了他的建议。

Pericles Lewis: So the two of them are stuck there. Ultimately, Hans stays for seven years. They have to take their temperature every day. They have to lie still and then they go and have meals, several meals a day, breakfast, second breakfast, lunch, tea, dinner. They just eat a lot at these seven tables. And if you've ever stayed at a nice hotel where there's like a buffet style food, it's a little bit like that. They just sit at these seven tables. There's the tables are almost organized by nationality. There's a table that's the good Russian table for the fancy people from Russia. And then there's the table called the bad Russian table. That's a table for the not so nice people from Russia.

佩里克莱斯·鲁维思：他们俩被困在那里。最终，汉斯在那儿待了七年。他们必须每天量体温，躺着不动，然后去吃饭。他们每天吃好几顿，有早餐、第二顿早餐、午餐、下午茶和晚餐。他们坐在这七张桌子边吃很多东西。如果你住过不错的酒店，它们会有自助餐，小说里的情况就有点像那样。他们只是坐在这七章桌子边。桌子基本上都是按国籍来划分的，比如有一张餐桌坐的是上等俄国人，还有一张桌子叫“差劲的俄国人席”，坐的是一些不那么体面的俄国人。

Pericles Lewis: And over seven years, Hans rotates among the seven tables and he meets all the people from all the different countries and talks with them. And he tries to figure out a philosophy of life. But the problem is he's not a very smart guy.

佩里克莱斯·鲁维思：七年间，汉斯轮流坐在这七张桌子边，接触了来自不同国家的所有人，和他们交谈。他试图找到一种生活哲学。但是问题是，他不是一个很聪明的人。

Pericles Lewis: So there's a big distance between the narrator who's Thomas Mann, who knows everything, and Hans Castorp, who's this very limited kind of guy who doesn't quite understand when he's having a conversation with Behrens about how bacteria work or when he's having a conversation with Krokowski about psychoanalysis. He can't quite follow a lot of the conversations.

佩里克莱斯·鲁维思：他和故事的叙述者托马斯·曼不同。托马斯·曼什么都知道，但汉斯知道的很有限，听贝伦斯讲细菌的作用原理，或是听克洛可夫斯基做精神分析的时候，都似懂非懂。他不太能明白很多聊天的内容。

Pericles Lewis: And so for 700 pages, you're reading all of these funny, interesting conversations that go back to the history of ideas. But a lot of it is people arguing about what's causing the problems in Europe at this time in history.

佩里克莱斯·鲁维思：在这七百多页中，你能读到所有这些源自思想史的有趣对话。不过，很多人都在争论当时欧洲出现问题的历史原因。

Zachary Davis: Towards the end of the story, Hans’s cousin Joachim decides he’s had enough of the sanatorium. He heads down the mountain to rejoin his military unit, despite his illness.

扎卡里·戴维斯：小说快要结束时，汉斯的表兄约阿希姆觉得已经受够了疗养院。他不顾自己还生着病，下山回到了军队。

Pericles Lewis: In fact, he goes against medical advice, has to come back up to the sanatorium and he dies pretty quickly after that, so for the last couple of hundred pages, Hans is alone at the top of the mountain and his cousin is gone.

佩里克莱斯·鲁维思：实际上，他的举动有违医学建议，最终他不得不回到疗养院。没多久他就去世了。在最后两百页中，汉斯独自待在山顶的疗养院——他的表兄没了。

Pericles Lewis: One of the beautiful very final scenes they conduct a seance to try and get back in touch with Joachim’s spirit. This is, again, one of those things that Krokowski is really into, along with psychoanalysis comes the idea of the occult and getting in contact with the dead and all of that. And they actually do contact his cousin Joachim. But then he realizes that they shouldn't be messing with these dark forces. And Hans feels terribly, terribly guilty. And in the end, the war breaks out. And Hans, who was not supposed to be a soldier, he was supposed to be an engineer, joins the army. He becomes a soldier.

佩里克莱斯·鲁维思：小说最后有一幕非常优美。他们举办了接灵仪式来尝试和约阿希姆的灵魂重新保持联系。除了精神分析之外，神秘学以及与死者取得联系也是克洛可夫斯基博士非常感兴趣的事。他们确实联系到了表兄约阿希姆，但随后汉斯意识到他们不应该与这些黑暗力量牵扯在一起，也因此非常内疚。最后，战争爆发了。汉斯本来不打算当兵，而是准备当工程师，这时候却毅然参军，成为了一名士兵。

Pericles Lewis: And in the very last scene of the novel, you see him fighting in one of those terrible battles of the First World War in which there's mud and guts and blood and trenches. And you can tell, it doesn't really tell what's going to happen to you. But you just see the beginning of that massive debt. That was the First World War right at the end of the novel. So it's a very, very bleak ending.

佩里克莱斯·鲁维思：在小说的最后一幕，你会看到他在一战中的惨烈战役中战斗，扑面而来的都是这些词——烂泥、胆量、鲜血、战壕……小说结尾没有点明到底发生了什么，但你看到了一场浩劫的开始——第一次世界大战爆发了。这是一个非常暗淡的结局。

Zachary Davis: Throughout the novel, Mann uses several characters to illustrate some of the main ideas that were circulating Europe at the time. One of these characters is the psychoanalyst Dr. Krokowski, second in command at the sanatorium.

扎卡里·戴维斯：在整部小说中，托马斯·曼用几个人物来展现当时欧洲流行的一些主要观念。其中之一便是心理分析家克洛可夫斯基，他是疗养院的院长助理。

Pericles Lewis: And he's the one who says that organic causes are always secondary, which is to say that nothing is caused by illness or bacteria or viruses. It's all caused by something in your mind. And he really believes that tuberculosis and all the other problems of the world are mental problems. And so a solution to that is psychoanalysis. And he's come into my room and we'll talk about all your feelings and then you'll maybe someday get better. Only nobody actually does get better because in fact, tuberculosis is a real disease. It's not caused by psychological disturbances.

佩里克莱斯·鲁维思：克洛可夫斯基医生总认为生理原因是次要的，也就是说，不适感不是由疾病、细菌或病毒引起的，而是由精神因素引起的。他相信肺结核和世界上所有其他问题都是精神问题，而解决方案就是精神分析。他会来到你的房间，谈谈你的所有感受，也许有一天你会好转。但实际上没有人真正好转，因为肺结核其实是一种真正的疾病，并不是由精神不适引起的。

Pericles Lewis: And yet, in a way, Krokowski has a point because there are all these psychological disturbances going around in the culture and Krokowski sort of, the X-ray machine as a symbol of that, he sort of sees inside of people and sees the last or the death wishes or the greed that motivates people and that nobody wants to talk about on the surface. So a very memorable character.

佩里克莱斯·鲁维思：但从某种程度上看，克洛可夫斯基之所以这么认为，是因为所处的文化中总是有弥漫着很多叫人精神不适的因素。而小说中的X光片在某种程度上象征着克洛可夫斯基可以看到人们的内核，看到人们的死亡命运、遗言或人们闭口不提却为之所驱的欲望。这个角色令人印象深刻。

Zachary Davis: Other ideologies were competing for prominence at the time. Hans Castorp and his cousin Joachim represent two of them: the lazy bourgeoisie and the dutiful citizen.

扎卡里·戴维斯：当时，还有其他的意识形态也争相变得更流行。汉斯·卡斯托普和表兄约阿希姆就代表其中两个。他们一个是懒惰的资产阶级，一个是尽职尽责的公民。

Pericles Lewis: So early on, Hans is diagnosed as being one of life's problem children, meaning that he doesn't quite fit in. And all through the novel, the narrator will keep referring to him as one of life's problem children and in different ways. It indicates to you that Hans hasn't quite figured it all out, you know.

佩里克莱斯·鲁维思：起初汉斯就被定义为有生活问题的孩子，这意味着他不太适应生活。而且，在整部小说中，叙述者一直以种种方式将他描述成有生活问题的孩子。这向你暗示了汉斯还没有完全弄清楚这一切。

Pericles Lewis: And then, by contrast, Joachim, his cousin, the soldier, is a model of duty. He wants to go back and serve his country. He wants to be healthy again. Hans seems to almost enjoy being sick because it gives him an excuse for not working and for just lying around. But Joachim really wants to get back and be of service. And so there's that strong sense of duty. So that's another one of those contrasting pairs.

佩里克莱斯·鲁维思：而他当兵的表兄约阿希姆则是个有责任的典型。他想要恢复健康，为国家战斗。而汉斯似乎乐意生病，因为这给了他躺着不做事的理由。约阿希姆却有强烈的责任感，想着好了之后回到军队服役。这是小说中的另一组对比。

Zachary Davis: Then there was humanism and radicalism. Humanists believed in the ideas of rational thought and progress emphasized by the Enlightenment. This fundamentally optimistic ideology is represented by a character named Settembrini.

扎卡里·戴维斯：此外还有人文主义和激进主义。人文主义者相信启蒙运动所推崇的理性思考和进步。在小说中，代表这种极为乐观的意识形态的是塞特姆布里尼。

Pericles Lewis: He believes in world peace and that all the nations will come together and he's a foe of all religion.

佩里克莱斯·鲁维思：他相信世界和平，相信所有国家都会团结在一起。他还反对所有宗教。

Zachary Davis: His opponent is a man named Naphta, who represents radicalism.

扎卡里·戴维斯：他的对头是纳夫塔，这个人代表着激进主义。

Pericles Lewis: Naphta is Jewish, but he's also a Jesuit. He sort of converted to Catholicism. He was taken under the wings of the Jesuits. And he's also a revolutionary, sort of a communist revolutionary. And he's basically pessimistic about everything. He thinks that the Enlightenment is going to fail. He sees correctly that there's going to be a war. He believes that humans are basically evil and sinful.

佩里克莱斯·鲁维思：纳夫塔是犹太人，但他也是耶稣会教士。他皈依了天主教，得到了耶稣会教士的照顾。他还是革命者，赞成共产主义。然而他基本上对所有事情都持悲观态度，认为启蒙运动将要失败，人类本质上非常邪恶、罪孽深重。他正确地预测到将要爆发战争。

Pericles Lewis: And even though I think the funny thing about it is that Thomas Mann is more of a liberal, progressive kind of guy, and in that sense, his sympathies might be with Settembrini. He also has this undertow of awareness of all the dark forces in the world. And so in that sense, Naphta turns out to be right more often than Settembrini does.

佩里克莱斯·鲁维思：不过我觉得有意思的是，托马斯·曼本人更倾向于自由主义和进步主义，从这一点上他和塞特姆布里尼更有共鸣。但他也清楚世界上所有黑暗的因素。从这层意义上讲，纳夫塔比塞特姆布里尼更正确。

Zachary Davis: How much of the power of the book is , in your view, kind of sense of foreboding, that prophetic quality that, you know, something horrific is going to come and that, you know, that kind of deep understanding, that reason can't account for this like this, something darker.

扎卡里·戴维斯：您觉得这本书有多大的影响力？它有那种预言般的力量，预示了某种即将到来的可怕事情。而且任何深刻的见解乃至理性都无法解释这种黑暗的事情。

Pericles Lewis: Yeah, I think it's really that struggle between reason which tries to solve problems and this sense of foreboding, as you say, are all the irrational forces that are constantly pushing forward. And that goes back to Nietzsche, the idea that underneath rationality, they're actually all these irrational forces, the desire for power, the desire for control, lust, all of those kinds of things. And Mann is really a man of the Enlightenment who believes in reason, rationality and so on. But he also knows that it's constantly being undercut by all those other forces.

佩里克莱斯·鲁维思：没错。我觉得这是两种感觉之间的斗争：一方面，他想要以理性解决问题；但同时，正如你所说，他隐隐觉得有种不祥的预感，仿佛所有非理性的东西正愈演愈烈。这种非理性的元素可以追溯到尼采，他认为在理性之下有着各种非理性的力量，如对权力与控制的渴望、欲望等等。托马斯·曼是一个尊崇理性的启蒙思想者，但他也清楚其他各种力量正在削弱理性。

Pericles Lewis: I also think this is part of just being in history, as you don't know where it's going to go in the future. And that's what novels, especially novels like The Magic Mountain, are great at showing you is that experience of being in the process of time resulting from history and not knowing what the future is going to hold. So there are these competing predictions in the novel. There's the prediction that, OK, it'll all be all right and we'll have peace and people will get together. There will be harmony. Every country will become a liberal democracy and so on.

佩里克莱斯·鲁维思：我觉得这就是置身历史的一部分情况，因为你不知道未来会朝着什么方向发展。而这恰恰是小说，尤其是《魔山》这样的小说长于向你展现的。它描述了置身于一个深受历史影响、却不知未来通向何方的时代是什么感觉。所以小说中有些互相冲突的预言。有人说未来一切都会好起来，我们会拥有和平，团结起来和谐相处，每个国家都会变成自由民主的国度。

Pericles Lewis: And on the other side, there's sin and fear and hatred are going to dominate. And ultimately there's going to be a cataclysm. And of course, he knew by the time he finished the novel that there had been one cataclysm. But he also saw an even worse when the Second World War coming on the horizon.

佩里克莱斯·鲁维思：而有人则说未来会充满罪恶，恐惧与仇恨将成为主流，最终会有一场大灾难。当然，托马斯·曼知道小说写完之后会发生一场大灾难。但到了二战来临的时候，他看到了一场更大的灾难。

Zachary Davis: So why is it called The Magic Mountain?

扎卡里·戴维斯：为什么小说名字叫《魔山》？

Pericles Lewis: Underlying everything is this sense of mystical forces that's making everything happen and also a sense of tapping into an unconscious that none of us has real control of. And there is this kind of feeling about the whole thing that there's that the unconscious is not just one person's unconscious, but it's this sort of collective force that we're tapping into. And I think that might be part of why it's called The Magic Mountain is that up in that mountain, you get connected to these magical forces that in normal life you don't pay any attention to.

佩里克莱斯·鲁维思：有一股神秘力量掩藏于其下，它让一切得以发生，让我们无意中感到没有什么是我们可以真正掌控的。我们对所有事情都是这种感觉，而且不单单是一个人这么觉得，所有人都被这股力量影响着。我觉得这可能是为什么小说名叫《魔山》的原因之一。在那座山上，你会和这些神秘的力量捆绑在一起，而这种力量在日常生活中你根本注意不到。

Zachary Davis: So I'd love to understand its place in literary history. What are the key themes for you or at least the themes that you think are most magnetic?

扎卡里·戴维斯：我想知道它在文学史上的地位是怎样的。您觉得小说的核心主题是什么？或者您觉得它最引人关注的主题是什么？

Pericles Lewis: This is definitely a modern or modernist novel in the sense that it doesn't have a very conventional plot. You know, the story could be told in 30 seconds. And even then you say, well, what happened? There's almost in a way, very little happens. And instead, there are these extended philosophical and psychological discussions. There's this wonderful chapter called “Snow” in which he gets lost in the snow and he has all these mystical, magical visions. He thinks he's been out all night. And then it turns out he's only been gone for about 15 minutes, but he's had a year's worth of magical visions during those 15 minutes of a snowstorm.

佩里克莱斯·鲁维思：这绝对是一本现代主义小说，因为它没有传统意义上的情节。你知道，这个故事可以在三十秒内讲完。甚至听完后，你还会疑惑发生了什么。在某方面看，小说里几乎没有发生任何事情，反而有很多延伸的哲学、心理学讨论。书里有一节非常美，叫《雪》。这一节里，汉斯在暴风雪中迷路了，看到了很多神秘而奇妙的幻象。他以为他整夜都在雪地里，实际上他只走了十五分钟左右。但是在那场十五分钟的暴风雪中，他仿佛看到了一年的奇妙幻象。

Pericles Lewis: So it's this symbolic sense that in every action, whether it's skiing in a snowstorm, certainly having an affair, even deciding at which table to sit at for dinner, there, there are all these unexpressed, symbolic and magical qualities that Mann is trying to communicate to us.

佩里克莱斯·鲁维思：书中有很多象征意义。人物的一举一动，无论是在暴风雪中滑雪、还是爱上别人、乃至决定在哪张桌子上吃饭，所有这些都蕴含着托马斯·曼没有明说、但想要传递给我们的奇妙象征意义。

Pericles Lewis: I also mentioned the irony in the narrator. The narrator is constantly calling attention to the fact that the novel exists in time, and I love to read it in terms of what is the purpose of a work of art and novels in particular, even more than music are about experiencing the passage of time. That's another reason I like to reread it. Every once in a while, you're living with the characters for the time that you read it, and even though it's a really long book, it doesn't take seven years to read.

佩里克莱斯·鲁维思：我再谈谈叙事者的讽刺意味吧。叙事者不断提醒人们注意小说发生在一段时间当中。我喜欢反复读这本书，一是因为艺术作品的目的在于体味时间的流逝，甚至与音乐相比，小说似乎更能展现这种情况。另一个原因是，阅读时你时不时地感觉和角色生活在一起，尽管读完需要很长时间，但也没有七年之久。

Pericles Lewis: So if you spend a month reading it, you're experiencing seven years of this. Very interesting. Now to US foreign culture from 100 years ago and you're experiencing it as part of your own life. So sometimes, you know, when you're watching a great TV series or reading a great novel or maybe if you've been to see a play or something like that, you start to think about it in your own life. And it's that kind of novel that sort of gives you insight into what it is to be alive, what it is to experience time, ultimately, what it is to die.

佩里克莱斯·鲁维思：所以如果你花了一个月时间阅读它，相当于体验了书中七年的事情。对于美国人来说，了解一百年前的外国文化，而且仿佛置身其中一般去体验它，可太有意思了。所以有时候，当你在看一部精彩的电视剧、读一本精彩的小说或看一部戏剧等等，你会开始在生活中思考它。正是这种小说使你能够洞察到什么是活着的感觉、如何经历时间的流动，然后明白死亡意味着什么。

Zachary Davis: I'd love to know a little bit more about modernism as a literary movement. What was it trying to do, this collection of artists?

扎卡里·戴维斯：我想再了解一下现代主义文学运动。这些艺术家们想要做什么？

Pericles Lewis: Well, so there's four great novelists who wrote in this same period, there are many, many, but four that I can think of that really wrote about the consequences of the First World War. So James Joyce. In Ulysses, he doesn't ever talk about the First World War. Ulysses has had in 1904. But he wrote it starting during the First World War. Proust, whose Remembrance of Things Past is another one of the greatest novels of the 20th century, started his novel before the war and started with the story of his childhood in the 19th century. But the very long novel ends up after the war. He was still revising it when he died in 1922.

佩里克莱斯·鲁维思：同一时期有很多伟大的小说家，但真正写了一战后果的，我能想到的只有四位。一是詹姆斯·乔伊斯。在《尤利西斯》中，他没有谈论一战。创作《尤利西斯》的念头1904年就有了。但真正动笔是在一战期间。普鲁斯特的《追忆似水年华》是20世纪另一本伟大的小说。一战前他就开始动笔了，主人公在开头回忆了19世纪的童年生活，这部巨著最后写到了一战结束之后。直到1922年去世前，普鲁斯特还在修改它。

Pericles Lewis: And then Virginia Woolf's greatest novel, I think, is To the Lighthouse, which is about a childhood before the war, and then coming back to the same house after the war and how it's changed as the result of deaths of certain major characters in the novel. And what I think these four novelists had in common is they were experiencing the very rapid transition of our society at the beginning of the 20th century.

佩里克莱斯·鲁维思：我觉得弗吉尼亚·伍尔芙最伟大的小说是《到灯塔去》，它回忆了一个孩子战前的童年生活，讲述了他战后回到同一所房子，在几个主角去世后，经历了怎样的变化。我觉得这四位小说家的共同点是，他们在20世纪初经历了社会的飞速发展。

Pericles Lewis: So it wasn't just the war. They were certainly very aware of the war and how many people had died in it. But it was also all the changes in culture. Virginia Woolf said that on or about December 1910, human nature changed. And it's just that feeling that the world isn't the way it used to be. And they're all looking back at a certain well-ordered 19th century bourgeois, what we would call Victorian world, the way it's been transformed.

佩里克莱斯·鲁维思：影响他们的不仅仅是战争，当然他们很了解战争，也清楚战争夺去了多少人的生命。影响他们的还有文化上的变化。弗吉尼亚·伍尔芙说，1910年的12月，人性发生了变化。他们觉得世界不再是以前那个样子了。他们回顾了19世纪富有秩序的资产阶级生活，看着它如何转变。

Pericles Lewis: And they're trying to get beyond the traditional novel that represents, in their view, a sort of a decorous world in which social relations are relatively well established and can be easily traced and instead get into something deeper, tapping into the unconscious, tapping into psychological motives that might not be apparent, trying to describe character and depth and not focusing as much on plot.

佩里克莱斯·鲁维思：他们试图超越传统小说。在他们看来，小说代表着一个深邃的世界，在这个世界中，社会关系相对完整，易于追溯，于是你可以探索更深层次的领域，挖掘潜意识和不易察觉的心理动机，努力刻画人物性格和深层次的东西，而不是着力关注情节。

Pericles Lewis: So as a result, they wrote novels that are actually pretty challenging to read. These are all some of the famously most difficult novels of the 20th century as well as the greatest. And they were sort of challenging the reader. They were saying, if you want to really understand things, I'm not going to tell you a simple story. I'm going to delve in and show you things that you haven't noticed before, show you what lies beneath the surface.

佩里克莱斯·鲁维思：所以他们的小说读起来其实很有挑战性。这些都是20世纪以“最难读”而著称的小说，但同时也是最棒的。他们似乎在挑战读者，告诉读者既然想要真正了解事物，那他们就不会讲一个简单的故事。他们会深挖下去，向读者展现从未被注意到的、表面之下的事物。

Zachary Davis: Let's discuss its afterlife. What would be the story of its kind of longer influence on, you know, global culture, Western culture?

扎卡里·戴维斯：我们来讨论一下这本书的后续影响吧。它对全球文化和西方文化产生了哪些长远影响？

Pericles Lewis: Mann became very distinguished and famous because he was a German opponent of Hitler and for his broadcasts on the BBC in which he criticized the Nazi regime. So he became a sort of elder statesman of literature. And I think the Nobel Prize partly recognized that and partly made that possible. The novel itself, I think if you think of the films of the 60s and 70s that like the New Wave in cinema films that looked at the psycho psychological and the unconscious and so on, there's often a little bit of an echo of Thomas Mann there.

佩里克莱斯·鲁维思：托马斯·曼变得出名、受人尊敬，是因为他是个反对希特勒的德国人，在BBC广播中批判了纳粹政权。于是他成了文学界的资深领袖。我想授予他诺贝尔奖一方面认可了他的地位，另一方面也造就了他的地位。如果你想想上世纪六、七十年代的新浪潮电影，那些频频出现的心理学分析和潜意识分析总是让你多少看到托马斯·曼的影子。

Pericles Lewis: He had a great eye and a great ear and he could describe a world that was sort of dissolving. Also, I think the gay theme is sort of important because he was one of those interesting writers who investigated sexuality seemingly from a very bourgeois perspective, but actually suggesting a lot of things that lay beneath the surface. You know, I think of the great writers who write about many generations, like Gabriel Garcia Marquez in One Hundred Years of Solitude.

佩里克莱斯·鲁维思：他有一双善于发现的眼睛和一双善于倾听的耳朵，可以描绘一个正在逝去的世界。他对性的探讨也很值得关注。他很有意思，对性的刻画表面上采用的是非常能代表资产阶级的视角，但实际上却暗示了许多隐藏在表面之下的东西。这让我想到了那些叙述几代人的作家，比如写了《百年孤独》的加夫列尔·加西亚·马尔克斯。

Pericles Lewis: And I think that man has, I don't know how direct the influence is, but he is a bit of a model for that kind of writing. He in some of his other books, he shows us how a culture evolves over several generations and how a family passes along certain traits and traditions and so on, and how closely personal life interacts with the political life, for example, of Germany or of Europe as a whole.

佩里克莱斯·鲁维思：我不知道托马斯·曼是否直接影响了马尔克斯，但他有点像这种写作叙事的代表。在其他一些小说中，他向我们展现了文化如何在几代人中演变，家族如何传承着某些特征和传统，个人生活与德国乃至整个欧洲的政治生活之间如何紧密地相互影响。

Pericles Lewis: I think his exploration of the unconscious is very important for a lot of later writers. I really like the Canadian author Robertson Davies. And Davies has all of these Jungian characters who see symbolic forces operating underneath the reality that is on the surface. And I think that owes something to Mann's Magic Mountain. So I think those who are interested in sexuality, those who are interested in history and those who are interested in psychoanalysis, they can all draw something from Mann’s Magic Mountain.

佩里克莱斯·鲁维思：我觉得他对潜意识的探索对许多后来的作家来说都非常重要。我很喜欢加拿大作家罗伯逊·戴维斯，他塑造出了许多荣格式的人物，能看穿表面现实之下的象征力量。我觉得这要归功于托马斯·曼《魔山》一书的影响。我觉得对性、历史和心理分析感兴趣的人都可以从他的《魔山》中学到一些东西。

Zachary Davis: In The Magic Mountain, Mann described how destructive forces such as greed, power, and lust can undermine reason.

扎卡里·戴维斯：托马斯·曼在《魔山》中描述了贪婪、权力和欲望等破坏性的力量如何破坏着人的理性。

Pericles Lewis:I think Mann's biggest contribution was his sense that disease is always there, disease both as actual illness and also, in a sense, as a moral unease that you might feel and that we're constantly trying to repress it and ignore it. But ultimately, you have to face up to it.

佩里克莱斯·鲁维思：我认为托马斯·曼最大的贡献在于，他觉得疾病会永远存在。这里的疾病既是指实际意义上的疾病，在某种意义上也是指我们在道德上的不安感。你会一直在努力抑制并忽略它，但最终你必须正视它。

Zachary Davis: So I am extremely susceptible to nostalgia of Arcadian, you know, echoes. And so when I think, you know, I do think, oh man, like culture was more sophisticated in the past in some places, tea and, you know, high dialogue and things. And it seems like, you know, Mann both celebrates cultural expression at its height, but he he also punctures that idea that there is a kind of utopia in the world that, like, no matter where you look, human foibles are there. And, you know, you can think about the symbol of disease in a number of different ways. But what's powerful is like you, you can't wish it away.

扎卡里·戴维斯：我很容易怀念那种阿卡迪亚般的生活。所以我觉得，过去一些地方的文化确实更精致一点。人们喝着下午茶，谈论着各种高雅的话题。托马斯·曼似乎即使在庆祝那个文化氛围鼎盛的时代，但同时也在打破人们对乌托邦存在于世的幻想。不论你看向何处，你都能看到人类的弱点。你可以用许多不同的方式来思考疾病的象征概念，但它的强大之处在于，你不能寄希望于它会消失。

Pericles Lewis: Yeah, for sure. illness is a very, very powerful metaphor, goes all the way back to Greek tragedy. The feeling that there's something wrong in the way the world is oriented is seen as an illness, causing famine, causing a plague. And, you know, we totally experience that this year. We felt that the real illness has, of course, killed many people. And it's horrible.

佩里克莱斯·鲁维思：没错。疾病是一个非常有影响力的隐喻，其出现可以追溯到古希腊悲剧。有人觉得世界去往的方向有些不对，将它视为一场造成饥荒和瘟疫的疾病。你知道，今年我们完全体会到了这一点。我们发现真正的疾病已经夺去了许多人的生命，太可怕了。

Pericles Lewis: But at the same time, it's also almost a metaphor for a bigger social problem, which is our inability to respond to the illness and our political paralysis, unwillingness to face up to the facts, unwillingness to listen to expert opinion, skepticism about everybody's opinion and all of that was there in its own form back when Mann wrote The Magic Mountain.

佩里克莱斯·鲁维思：但同时，它似乎也隐喻了更大的社会问题，那就是我们无力应对疾病和政治瘫痪，不愿直面事实，不愿听取专家的意见，甚至怀疑每个人的意见。所有这些都以特有的形式展现在了托马斯·曼的《魔山》中。

Zachary Davis: Mann showed audiences hard truths about humanity’s shortcomings. And contrary to our prevailing cultural faith, Mann argues that we can’t just use reason to bulldoze our way through those human constraints. Instead, we need to acknowledge our weaknesses. Understand them. And even embrace them.

扎卡里·戴维斯：托马斯·曼向读者揭示了关于人类弱点的苦涩事实。他不认同普遍的文化信仰，认为我们不能仅仅依靠理性来克服人类的种种局限。相反，我们需要承认、了解甚至拥抱我们的弱点。

Pericles Lewis: I think Mann helped us to understand where the First World War had come from and what were the forces in European culture that were worth preserving and what were the forces that were very, very destructive. I think Mann gave us an alternative to the fascist Nazi view of culture that would say, actually, here's a German culture that's worth preserving.

佩里克莱斯·鲁维思：我觉得他帮我们了解了第一次世界大战爆发的原因，了解了欧洲文化中值得保留的力量是什么、破坏性非常大的力量是什么。他为我们带来了真正值得保留的德国文化，让纳粹的法西斯主义文化不用成为我们的选择。

Zachary Davis: Writ Large is a production of Ximalaya. Writ Large is produced by Jack Pombriant, Liza French, and me, Zachary Davis. Script editing is by Galen Beebe. We get help from Feiran Du, Ariel Liu, and Monica Zhang. Our theme song is by Ian Coss. Don’t miss an episode. Subscribe today in the Ximalaya app. Thanks for listening. See you next time.

扎卡里·戴维斯：本节目由喜马拉雅独家制作播出。感谢您的收听，我们下期再见