【英文原声版64】James Kloppenberg：The Social Contract

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Zachary Davis: Humans are extraordinary creatures capable of sublime creativity, resilience, and compassion. But there’s no denying we also have an ugly side. We can be lazy, selfish, and even cruel. Many thinkers have wondered if this ugly side can be overcome, whether through education, discipline, or some other approach.

扎克里·戴维斯：人类这种生物是如此地不同寻常，有着非凡的创造力、强大的适应力和强烈的同情心。但不可否认，我们人类也有丑陋的一面。我们也会变得懒惰、自私甚至残忍。很多思想家都在思考，能否通过教育、规训等方法，让人类摒弃丑陋的一面。

Zachary Davis: But the 18th century philosopher Jean-Jacques Rousseau went a step further. He wanted to know where our selfish tendencies come from. Were humans born selfish, or were they made that way? He explored these questions in his 1762 work, The Social Contract

扎克里·戴维斯：而18世纪的哲学家让-雅克·卢梭思考地更深入。他想知道我们的自私倾向从何而来。人类是生而自私，还是后天变成了自私的人？在1762年的作品《社会契约论》中，他探讨了这些问题。

James Kloppenberg: I first encountered Rousseau’s Social Contract, my first day as a freshman in high school, because the teacher of that world history course wrote on the blackboard, “man is born free and everywhere he is in chains.” My name is James Kloppenberg, I teach history at Harvard University.

詹姆斯·克洛彭伯格：我第一次接触到卢梭的《社会契约论》，是在我高一开学第一天。那天，世界历史课的老师在黑板上写下了：“人生而自由，却无往不在枷锁之中。”我是詹姆斯·克洛彭伯格，在哈佛大学教历史。

Zachary Davis: This is the opening sentence to The Social Contract. Rousseau was a vocal critic of refined European society and monarchical power. In The Social Contract and other writings, Rousseau argued that humans are born good but that society corrupts them. In order for humans to truly flourish, society had to be reformed. Rousseau’s theories of reform were incredibly influential and remain so today, even, for example, in the state I live in.

扎克里·戴维斯：这句话是《社会契约论》的开篇语。卢梭一直尖锐地抨击着欧洲上流社会和君主专制。在《社会契约论》和其他著作中，卢梭认为，人性生来本是善的，但社会却使他们堕落。要想让人类真正幸福发展，就必须改革社会。卢梭的改革理论影响深远，时至今日一直影响着人们，影响着我生活的这个地方。

James Kloppenberg: When John Adams is asked to write the Constitution for the Commonwealth of Massachusetts in 1780, the constitution that's still in place. He writes to a friend after he's written his draft. It is Sydney and Locke, Rousseau and de Mably reduced to practice.

詹姆斯·克洛彭伯格：1780年，约翰·亚当斯受命制定马萨诸塞州宪法，这部宪法中的一些原则贯彻至今。草拟完宪法后，他给朋友写了一封信，说他将西德尼、洛克、卢梭、马布利的思想付诸实践了。

Zachary Davis: Welcome to Writ Large, a podcast about how books change the world. I’m Zachary Davis. In each episode, I talk with one of the world’s leading scholars about one book that changed the course of history. For this episode, I sat down with Professor James Kloppenberg to discuss Jean-Jacques Rousseau’s The Social Contract.

扎卡里·戴维斯：欢迎收听：改变你和世界的100书，在这里我们为大家讲述改变世界的书籍。我是扎卡里·戴维斯。每一集，我都会和一位世界顶尖学者讨论一本影响历史进程的书。在本集，我和詹姆斯·克洛彭伯格教授一起讨论《社会契约论》。

James Kloppenberg:, Rousseau is born in 1712 in Geneva. His mother dies very early in his life. His father sends him to his brother and his wife to raise Rousseau, and he's very happy there. It's a very prosperous, well-to-do family in Geneva.

詹姆斯·克洛彭伯格：1712年，卢梭生于日内瓦。他的母亲很早就去世了，父亲把他送去舅舅和舅母家抚养。舅舅一家在日内瓦颇为殷实，他在那儿过得很快乐。

Zachary Davis: But when he was thirteen, Rousseau was apprenticed to an engraver. It didn’t go well. He wasn’t very good at it, he didn’t enjoy it, and one of the men who employed him was physically abusive. One day, when he was fifteen, Rousseau went out with some friends outside of the city.

扎克里·戴维斯：13岁时，卢梭给一个雕刻师当学徒，但并不顺利。他不擅长、也不喜欢雕刻，其中一个师傅还虐待他。15岁的一天，卢梭和几个朋友一起到城外玩。

James Kloppenberg: As he's coming back to Geneva, the gatekeeper closes the gate to the city. And Rousseau had already been beaten for missing his curfew a little bit earlier. And this time he decides, I just don't want to do this anymore. And so he takes off. He basically hits the road. He goes south from Geneva through the Italian city of Turin. He returns to what is now France to the city of Chambéry, where he resides with a woman named Madame de Warens, who is a surrogate mother and a teacher and then his lover.

詹姆斯·克洛彭伯格：天色渐暗，守城人关闭了日内瓦的城门。卢梭之前已经因为没赶上宵禁时间被打过一顿。这次他决定，不要再挨打了。于是他离开了，从日内瓦往南走，经过意大利都灵市，辗转回到了如今法国的尚贝里，和华伦夫人住在一起。华伦夫人是他精神上的母亲，是他的老师，也是他的情人。

Zachary Davis: During this time, Rousseau supported himself by working different jobs as a servant, tutor, and secretary. He took advantage of Madame de Warens’s vast library, reading everything he could get his hands on. Madame de Warens was also a music enthusiast and arranged formal music lessons for Rousseau. He eventually developed his own form of musical notation and traveled to Paris to present it to The French Academy of Sciences.

扎克里·戴维斯：在这期间，卢梭做过管家、家教、秘书等不同的工作来养活自己。他借华伦夫人的海量藏书之便，阅读手边的各种书。华伦夫人是一位音乐爱好者，她还为卢梭安排了正规的音乐课。卢梭他最终发明了自己的记谱法，前往巴黎向法国科学院介绍了这一发明。

James Kloppenberg: It intrigues a number of people, including the king and including Marie Antoinette. And he befriends some very influential families, the Mabley’s, who are the family that give us both Abbé de Mably and also Condillac, who are two important figures in the world of the French Enlightenment. Rousseau spends some time in their house again making use of their library.

詹姆斯·克洛彭伯格：记谱法获得了法国国王等许多人[1] 的青睐。他结识了一些非常有影响力的家族，其中之一便是马布利家族。马布利家族诞生了两位重要人物——马布利和孔狄亚克，俩人均为法国启蒙运动的重要人物。卢梭在他们家待了一段时间，阅读了他们的大量藏书。

Zachary Davis: This same year, Rousseau befriended French philosopher Denis Diderot. They shared many conversations about literature and eventually, along with other thinkers such as D’Alembert, became part of a leading intellectual group known as the philosophes. Diderot was appointed editor of a new project to write the first encyclopedia, known as the French Encyclopedie. Rousseau contributed many articles to the sections on music and the economy. This work helped establish Rousseau’s name in intellectual circles, but his real claim to fame would come later.

扎克里·戴维斯：同年，卢梭结识了法国哲学家德尼·狄德罗。他们常常一起探讨文学，俩人后来和达朗贝尔等人一起并称为“启蒙思想家”。这是一群杰出的知识分子。狄德罗为任命为一个新项目的编辑，负责编写第一部百科全书，也就是著名的法国《百科全书》。卢梭为音乐和经济专题撰写了许多文章。这个项目让卢梭在知识界小有名气，但要说真正的声名鹊起，那还是之后的事情。

James Kloppenberg: He becomes much better known as a result of two essays that he writes in response to a prize that the Academy of Dijon organizes. So he writes what would come to be known as the first discourse and the second discourse. He wins both of those prizes and that really puts him on the map. Part of the argument of both of Rousseau's discourses is that the problem with 18th century French culture is that people are dependent on the wealthy.

詹姆斯·克洛彭伯格：他写了两篇文章来应征第戎学院组织的一个奖项，这两篇文章让他声名大噪。文章后来又被称作《第一讲演集》和《第二讲演集》。他赢得了奖项，这下真的名扬四方了。在这两篇文章中，卢梭都指出了18世纪法国文化的一大问题：太过依赖于富人资助。

James Kloppenberg: And Rousseau argues in both of those discourses that the wealth itself is an artificial creation of a degenerate society. And so rather than continuing to be dependent on his wealthy patrons, he decides he's going to try to go it alone, simply doing musical transcriptions and doing the kind of work of a craftsman rather than an intellectual.

詹姆斯·克洛彭伯格：在这两篇文章中，卢梭都谈到，财富本身就是堕落社会的人为产物。于是他决定不再依靠有钱人的资助来做学问，而是要自食其力，抄抄乐谱，做做手艺活。

Zachary Davis: Rousseau continued writing philosophical works while also doing musical transcriptions.

扎克里·戴维斯：卢梭一边抄写乐谱，一边继续写哲学文章。

James Kloppenberg: In 1762, he publishes the two books that really do make his fame. One is Emile, a novel which is actually a philosophical treatise on education, and the other is The Social Contract.

詹姆斯·克洛彭伯格：1762年，他出版了两本真正让他火遍欧洲的书。一本是《爱弥儿》，体裁上看是小说，但其实是一部探讨教育的哲学论文；另一本便是《社会契约论》。

Zachary Davis: What is happening politically, culturally, economically that's influencing what he ends up responding to?

扎克里·戴维斯：当时的政治、文化和经济背景是怎样的。他在回应哪些现实？

James Kloppenberg: Both Geneva and France are oligarchies. I mean, there is a ruling group in Calvinist Geneva. And Rousseau is unhappy with the way in which this supposedly popular government, this Republican government operates. The aristocracy has some authority, but the authority really emanates from the center out and from the top down.

詹姆斯·克洛彭伯格：当时，日内瓦和法国都在施行寡头政治。加尔文教派盛行的日内瓦也有一个统治集团。而卢梭对日内瓦共和国中这个所谓民主政府的运作方式非常不满。统治集团有一定的权威，但这种权威是从里到外、自上而下实现的。

Zachary Davis: Rousseau thought this top down way of government was corrupting its citizens.

扎克里·戴维斯：卢梭认为这种自上而下的政府运转方式腐蚀了公民。

James Kloppenberg: Rousseau thought that individuals have the capacity to know what is just, what their moral obligations are, and that it is individual self-interest that blinds us to our duties. So from his point of view. The problem with civilization, the problem with the kinds of development that most members of the French philosophical community prized, that rise of refinement, of politeness for Rousseau simply deflected people from their natural simple lives and their inclinations toward virtue, both moral virtue and civic virtue, and led them to accentuate their own desires, their own impulses, to the detriment of that voice that gave them access to their duties.

詹姆斯·克洛彭伯格：卢梭认为，个人有能力知道什么是公正的、什么是他们的道德义务，然而一己私利遮蔽了我们的双眼，让我们不再履行职责。在他看来，文明的问题、法国大多数哲学家所珍视的那种发展的问题在于，对于精致和优雅的追求让人们远离了自然朴素的生活，让人们不再趋于追求高尚道德、公民美德等道德理想，深陷于自己的欲望与冲动之中，那呼唤他们履行职责的声音也就此消失。

Zachary Davis: In Rousseau’s view, this is how society corrupts people, by altering their desires and natural inclinations away from moral and civic virtue and towards individual self interest. Rousseau felt that refined society made its citizens more concerned with trying to impress and one-up each other than with striving for virtuous lives.

扎克里·戴维斯：在卢梭看来，社会就是这样腐蚀人类的。它改变了人类原有的倾向，点燃了他们的欲望，让他们抛却道德和公民美德，转而追求私利。卢梭认为，精致优雅的社会让公民更关心于争抢风头，而不是努力追求高尚的生活。

James Kloppenberg: And for Rousseau, you have to ask the question how is taste fed? Where do your preferences come from? Why do you want that as opposed to that? And that's the question Rousseau asks. What are the forms of power? What are the forms of cultural dynamics that lead you into this deranged conception of yourself such that wealth is the most important, perhaps even the only important thing to you, wealth, esteem, power. Instead, why do you not want the kind of ascetic life and the kind of benevolent relationships with others that we were created to want?

詹姆斯·克洛彭伯格：卢梭认为，你必须自问，你的品位、喜好是如何养成的，为何想要这个而不是那个。这就是卢梭提出的问题。什么样的权力、什么样的文化塑造了你这种扭曲的观念，让你信奉财富、自尊与权力至上，乃至其他都无足轻重。你为什么不会想要过苦行僧式的生活，不想要追求自然状态下我们与他人间充满善意的关系？

Zachary Davis: For Rousseau, this type of refined society began with the king. The monarchy structured society and created the rules for everyone to live by. But Rousseau believed in a government that protected the individual freedom of its citizens, which monarchies didn’t really allow for. In an absolute monarchy, one sovereign ruler has all the power and makes laws as they see fit. But Rousseau didn’t think the answer was just to get rid of monarchies. Because the monarchies, as problematic as they were, had brought order to a previously chaotic time.

扎克里·戴维斯：在卢梭来说，这种精致优雅的社会始于君主。君主制规范了社会，为每个人制定了日常规则。但卢梭追求的是一个保护公民个人自由的政府，而君主制政府并不会真正允许这样。在君主专制下，统治者拥有所有权力，按照他们认为合适的方式制定法律。但卢梭认为解决问题的办法并不是废除君主制。君主制虽然有问题，却给之前混乱的时代带去了秩序。

James Kloppenberg: This notion of absolute monarchy is really a post reformation idea. That part of what generates support for and makes sense of the idea of absolute authority is the carnage of the wars of religion that wrack Europe throughout the 16th century.

詹姆斯·克洛彭伯格：君主专制的概念是在宗教改革之后出现的。从某方面看，推动君主专制这一概念产生和落实的，是整个16世纪席卷欧洲的宗教战争和宗教屠杀。

Zachary Davis: In 1517, an obscure German monk and theologian named Martin Luther expressed his dissatisfactions with some practices of the Catholic Church. When his calls for change were ultimately ignored, he felt he had no choice but to form a new, reformed Christian Church. This reformation movement eventually grew much larger than the Catholic Church ever expected and led to centuries of horrific wars across Europe. Millions and millions of people were killed. In some areas, 30% of the population died as a result of these religious wars.

扎克里·戴维斯：1517年，一位不起眼的德国神父和神学家马丁·路德表达了对天主教会一些做法的不满。他呼吁变革，可是呼声被忽视了。别无选择之下，他成立了一个新的、改革的基督教会。这场改革运动最终的规模远远超过了天主教会的预期。它掀起了欧洲各地数百年的恐怖战争。成千上万的人丧生。在某些地区，死于宗教战争的人数甚至达到了30%。

James Kloppenberg: And in the aftermath of the wars of religion, a number of theorists argue that unless we have absolute authority, first in the king and the church, but then within each family, we're going to have chaos, because ordinary people had shown themselves throughout the wars of religion in the 16th century perfectly capable of slaughtering each other.

詹姆斯·克洛彭伯格：一些理论家目睹了宗教战争带来的灾难。他们提出，除非我们在国王、教会、家庭中依次设立绝对权威，不然我们就会陷入混乱。整个16世纪的宗教战争已经证明，普罗大众完全有可能互相残杀。

James Kloppenberg: And so the idea that authority, rather than emanating from the top out and down, authority should bubble up from the people. And that's an idea that originates with the dissenting Calvinists whom we call Puritans in American history and from the Presbyterians in Scotland.

詹姆斯·克洛彭伯格：这种权威不应该自上而下产生，而应该从人民中选出来。这一理念源自反对天主教会的加尔文教派和苏格兰长老会。前者后来发展出了美国历史上的清教。

James Kloppenberg: The wars of religion really then give people warrant for saying we cannot allow this crazy idea of popular government to breathe, because if it does, it's going to end in chaos. So what we need is absolute unquestioned authority and unquestioning obedience on the part of everybody else.

詹姆斯·克洛彭伯格：宗教战争让人们有理由认为建立民主政府的念头非常疯狂。他们觉得，一旦建立了这样的政府，那么一定会以混乱告终。需要的是绝对的、毋庸置疑的权威，其他人也需要毋庸置疑地服从于权威。

James Kloppenberg: But that notion of royal absolutism is, I think, generated in reaction to the wars of religion, and it draws its sustenance from the anxieties felt not only by kings and aristocracies, but also by ordinary people, that if given the chance, ordinary people will go crazy and start murdering each other.

詹姆斯·克洛彭伯格：君主专制思想作为对宗教战争的回应，渐渐发展了起来。它不但利用了国王与贵族的焦虑，也利用了普罗大众的忧虑——他们担心如果一有机会，人类就会陷入癫狂，互相残杀。

Zachary Davis: Following the nightmare of the wars of religion, philosophers were trying to figure out what kind of government would be the best. One of the most profound thinkers working on this problem was the 17th century English philosopher Thomas Hobbes. Hobbes argued for a powerful sovereign ruler chosen by the people. He felt this was the best option to avoid the chaos and brutality experienced in the wars of religion.

扎克里·戴维斯：哲学家们试图探索什么样的政府才是最好的。研究得最深入的思想家之一是17世纪英国哲学家托马斯·霍布斯。霍布斯主张由人民选出一个强大的主权统治者。他认为这是避免宗教战争中混乱、残暴景象的最佳方式。

Zachary Davis: Hobbes's pessimistic view of human beings was that they would inevitably descend into lawless, violent chaos without a strong central authority. Without clear laws and a strong police force, humans would steal and kill to gain advantage. The only solution was a social contract among the people to choose a leader to ensure safety for all. But for Hobbes, once the leader is chosen, the people themselves couldn’t be trusted to exercise power.

扎克里·戴维斯：霍布斯对人类非常悲观。他认为，如果没有强大的中央权威，人类终会陷入目无法律、暴力混乱的境地。没有明确的法律和强大的执法力量，人类就会靠偷盗和杀戮来获取利益。唯一的解决办法是在人民之间签订社会契约，选出一个领导者来确保所有人的安全。但在霍布斯看来，一旦选择了领袖，就不能相信人民可以自己行使权力。

Zachary Davis: Rousseau had a more optimistic view of humanity. Like Hobbes, Rousseau believed that humans do have the capacity to dissolve into chaos when governing themselves. But unlike Hobbes, Rousseau believed that this was because of the damaging effects of so-called “refinement” and “politeness” in society, not some inherent flaw in human nature. This was the central theme of his first and second discourses.

扎克里·戴维斯：卢梭对人性更乐观。和霍布斯一样，卢梭也认为人类在治理自己的时候，确实有可能引发混乱。但与霍布斯不同的是，卢梭认为这是社会中所谓的“精致”与“优雅”造成的，而不是人性内在缺陷带来的。这是他《第一讲演集》和《第二讲演集》中心主题。

James Kloppenberg: The first one arguing that the degradation of morals really does descend from this rise of what is thought to be politeness and refinement, because that gives rise to inequality and exactly the kind of gap between the rich and the poor that makes the poor dependent on the rich.

詹姆斯·克洛彭伯格：《第一讲演集》指出，道德的堕落确实源于精致与优雅文化的兴起。这种文化引发了不平等和贫富差距，而且使得穷人依附于富人。

James Kloppenberg: And then in the second discourse, the discourse on inequality, he develops an argument that attempts to explain how this inequality begins. And he argues that the first person who said “this is mine” is the creator of civil society, that prior to the existence of property, people live in a state of rough equality because everybody exists under conditions of subsistence.

詹姆斯·克洛彭伯格：在《第二讲演集》中他试图解释这种不平等是如何开始的。他认为，第一个宣称物品私有的人创造了公民社会。私有财产出现之前，人们大体上平等地生活在一起，因为此时人们只能勉强生存。

James Kloppenberg: And once somebody fences off a piece of land and persuades other people to respect his claim, then you have the origin of inequality and it spirals upward from there to the point that many people have not enough to survive and some people have so much more than they need that it's completely unjustifiable from Rousseau’s point of view.

詹姆斯·克洛彭伯格：而一旦有人用栅栏围出一块地，说服别人认同这块地属于他自己，这便是不平等的起源。从此，不平等渐渐蔓延，以至于有的人食不果腹，有的人富得吃不完、用不尽。这在卢梭看来完全不合理。

James Kloppenberg: And in The Discourse of Inequality and in an article that he wrote for the encyclopedia called Political Economy, he's among the first to lay out a rationale for progressive taxation. He argues that when you have not enough to sustain yourself, you have a claim on the property of people who have more than they could possibly use or need.

詹姆斯·克洛彭伯格：在《论人类不平等的起源和基础》和为《百科全书》而写的《政治经济学》一文中，他创造性地提出了为什么要征收累进税。他认为，如果你没有足够的钱来维持生计，你就有权向钱多得花不完的富人索要财产。

James Kloppenberg: And his own experience with Madama de Warens, with them, with the Mabley's, then with Diderot, and then at the court of the French king confirm everything he's been saying about the consequences of inequality, which are not only the grinding poverty of most people in France, but also the kind of mincing subservience that Rousseau witnessed at court. That even the most wealthy and powerful aristocrats were constantly abusing themselves in the face, not just of the king, but of other people who were slightly higher rank than they were.

詹姆斯·克洛彭伯格：他自己和华伦夫人、马布利兄弟、狄德罗等人的经历，以及他在法国宫廷的经历证实了他所说的不平等的后果。卢梭看到，不平等不仅让大多数法国人穷困潦倒，还造成了法国宫廷随处可见的卑微服从。在国王和爵位更高的显贵面前，有钱有势的贵族也不得不低下头颅，饱受嘲弄。

James Kloppenberg: And from Rousseau’s point of view, this made no sense, whatsoever. So the critique of inequality in some ways comes out of his head and out of his reading of the classics, but otherwise it comes out of his lived experience.

詹姆斯·克洛彭伯格：在卢梭看来，这一切都没道理。所以说，卢梭对不平等的批判在一定程度上源于他的思考和对经典书籍的阅读。但除此之外，也源于他的生活经验。

Zachary Davis: So, Rousseau’s Discourse on Inequality outlines the problems caused by the way society operates. And The Social Contract is about where to go from there. So what then, in your view, was Rousseau saying about state of nature, social contract, property and how to address inequality and, you know, how do we live together?

扎克里·戴维斯：卢梭的《论人类不平等的起源和基础》概括了社会运行方式造成的问题。而《社会契约论》则探讨了这种运行方式是怎么来的。您觉得，在自然状态、社会契约、私有财产和如何解决不平等、人类如何共同生活的问题上，卢梭是怎么看的？

James Kloppenberg: Social Contract is a treatise on government, what constitutes legitimate government. And I think it is fair to consider Rousseau as the most radical of the social contract theorists because he argues that the people form a government by coming together with each other. Both Hobbes and Locke had argued that the contract is between the people and their government, and Rousseau is really the first theorist of popular sovereignty of those social contract theorists, at least, who argues that authority remains with the people.

詹姆斯·克洛彭伯格：《社会契约论》围绕政府展开，探讨了合法的政府应有那些组成部分。卢梭可以说是社会契约论者中最激进的一位。他认为应当由人民共同建立政府，而霍布斯和洛克仅仅认为应当在人民间、或人民与政府之间签订契约。卢梭确实是这些社会契约理论家中第一个提出人民主权的人，至少是第一个认为主权仍然在人民手中的人。

Zachary Davis: Hobbes thought people should elect a ruler, but then they have no say in the government after that. Rousseau believed that the people should run the government—basically, it should be a representative democracy.

扎克里·戴维斯：霍布斯认为人民应该选出一个统治者，之后人民对政府就没有发言权了。卢梭则认为人民应该管理政府，应当实行后来我们所说的代议制民主。

James Kloppenberg: And from Rousseau’s point of view, sovereignty can never be alienated. The people always retain their sovereign authority. He draws a distinction, an important distinction between sovereignty and government. But the sovereignty, authority power resides in the people. And that is something that distinguishes him not only from Hobbes but also from Locke. The central idea, I think, of the social contract and the idea that has caused, I think the greatest controversy among commentators is his idea of the general will.

詹姆斯·克洛彭伯格：卢梭认为，主权永远不会被剥夺，人民始终保留着他们的主权。他在主权和政府之间做了一个重要的区分，指出了主权是为人民所有的。这也是他不同于霍布斯乃至洛克的地方。我觉得，卢梭社会契约理论的核心思想，以及在评论者中争议最大的思想，就是他的“公意”思想。

Zachary Davis: The general will is basically what’s in the best interest of the people. And Rousseau thought that had more authority than the will of any one ruler. The idea is that if the law embodies the general will of the people and you obey the law, you are obeying the general will of the people.

扎克里·戴维斯：“公意”大致指符有利于公众最大利益的意志。卢梭认为“公意”比任何一个统治者的意志更具有权威。如果法律体现了公意，那么你遵守法律，就是在遵循公意。

James Kloppenberg: And so the question is, how can you be sure that the law embodies the general will? And how can you know whether your own will is particular, or whether your will aligns with the general will? What we have to do, he argues, is to find a way to constitute government so that individuals can resist the vices that are attendant on civilization and return to lives of virtue that were easier, that were more possible in an earlier historical moment.

詹姆斯·克洛彭伯格：问题在于，你怎么能确定法律体现了公意？你又如何知道自己的意志是否是特殊的，或者说是否与公意一致？卢梭认为，我们要找到一种政府组织形式，让个人足以抵制文明所带来的邪恶，回归到人类早期更容易遵守美德的生活。

Zachary Davis: According to Rousseau, people naturally have a will towards virtue. But in polite, refined society, that will has been corrupted. One’s natural desires for virtue and a simple life have been replaced with self-centered interests. These interests become one’s impulses.

扎克里·戴维斯：卢梭认为，人类生来就有一种向往美德的意志。但在优雅、精致的社会中，这种意志已经被腐蚀了。一个人对美德和简单生活的自然欲望，已经被以自我为中心的逐利心所取代。人们被利益所驱动。

James Kloppenberg: He says if you simply follow your impulses, if you follow your appetites, then you're a slave to those impulses. You're a slave to those appetites. You are not really free because to be free is to align your will with what you must do, what you ought to do. So when he uses in the general, in The Social Contract the phrase you must “be forced to be free”. That's what he means.

詹姆斯·克洛彭伯格：如果仅仅屈从于逐利心，屈从于你的欲望，那么你就会成为它的奴隶。你被欲望所奴役，无法享有真正的自由，因为只有当你的意志和必须做且应该做的事情相一致的时候，你才是真正自由的。所以卢梭在《社会契约论》中写道：“人被迫自由。”这就是他的意思。

Zachary Davis: For Rousseau, freedom is liberation from the artificial, selfish impulses imposed on you by society. Freedom is when those individual self interests are replaced with the general interests of the community. In other words, freedom is when you wish for the common good.

扎克里·戴维斯：在卢梭看来，自由意味着从社会强加给你的人为的、自私的逐利心中挣脱开来，意味着追求社会公共利益而非自我利益。换句话说，只有当你希望获得公共利益的时候，你才会获得自由。

Zachary Davis: Rousseau illustrates this process of attaining freedom in his novel Emile. He shows this transformation through the main character, Emile, who is able to rise above his own self interest for the general will.

扎克里·戴维斯：卢梭在小说《爱弥儿》中描绘了这种获得自由的历程。他描绘了主人公爱弥儿如何为了公意而摒弃私利，以此来展现他的变化。

James Kloppenberg: And at that point, Rousseau says, he becomes a citizen. At that point, he is willing to repress his animal appetites, his perception of his self-interest, and instead to align his individual interest with the public interest or with the general will.

詹姆斯·克洛彭伯格：卢梭说，此刻爱弥儿成为了一个公民。此刻，他愿意压抑自己的动物性欲望，压抑自己的私利，让个人追求与公共利益或公意相一致。

James Kloppenberg: The problem with this, of course, is how do you make it happen. For Rousseau, the general will is an abstract principle. It's an ideal of justice. And it's the measuring stick by which any constitution or any kind of legislative activity should be measured.

詹姆斯·克洛彭伯格：当然，问题在于如何实现这种转变。卢梭认为公意是一个抽象的原则、一个正义的理想。它是衡量任何宪法或立法活动的标杆。

James Kloppenberg: And for Rousseau, that has a significance that is independent of any individual's particular will or any individual group’s particular will. If your individual will is unreflective, if your individual will is just whatever you feel like doing, then you are just a slave to your appetites, you're no better than an enemy. And so what we need to do is to cultivate your sensibility in such a way that you will what is in the general interest.

詹姆斯·克洛彭伯格：卢梭认为，公意非常重要的一点在于，它与任何个体或小团体的特定意志无关。如果你的个人意志是未经反思的，仅仅是想为所欲为，那么你只是欲望的奴隶，你也无异于人民公敌。所以我们要做的就是培养你的感知能力，让你的意志符合公意。

Zachary Davis: Rousseau defines the general will as the will of the people as a whole.

扎克里·戴维斯：卢梭将公意定义为全体人民作为一个整体时的意志。

James Kloppenberg: And all of us in the United States have been raised to think that our will is paramount, is primary. Nobody can tell us what to which, even if they say wear a mask or you'll kill somebody else. If I want not to wear a mask, that's my right not to wear a mask. And Rousseau says, “wait, stop, think. Is that wish on your part in conformity to that principle of the public interest, the general will?”

詹姆斯·克洛彭伯格：在美国教育的灌输下，我们都认为自己的个人意志最重要。没有人可以对我们发号施令。有人说，戴口罩吧，不然你会害死别人。但你还是不想带口罩，觉得戴不戴是你的权利。这时候卢梭跳出来了，说：“等等，你想想，你的这个愿望是否符合公共利益原则，是否符合公意？”

James Kloppenberg: And the answer, from my perspective would be no, because you could kill not only yourself, you could kill somebody else. So Rousseau's entire project is devoted to getting people to question what they see as their own individual interest and instead to ask what is in the general interest.

詹姆斯·克洛彭伯格：在我看来，答案是否定的，因为你不仅会害死自己，还会害死别人。所以卢梭的整套理论都是在让人们反思自己对个人利益的看法，进而去思考什么是公共利益。

Zachary Davis: The challenge seems to be, though, is how do you discern what is the common good among a diverse group of people?

扎克里·戴维斯：不过挑战在于，如何辨别不同群体的共同利益是什么？

James Kloppenberg: What he has in mind, I think, is a situation or a culture and a set of institutions in which individuals select the people best able to discern the general will, to be their representatives. And how do those people discern the general will? And the answer to that, I think, for Rousseau is universal, publicly funded education.

詹姆斯·克洛彭伯格：他设想了一种情况，或者说一种文化、一套制度。在这套制度中，个体选出最能辨别公意的人作为他们的代表。那么这些代表要如何辨别出公意？卢梭认为答案是全民公费教育。

Zachary Davis: Rousseau did not believe the role of education was to make people more economically productive. That would perpetuate individual self interest and the desire to accumulate wealth. Instead, he thought that the role of education was to cultivate citizens. Its purpose was to give people the capacity to see what is in the general public interest and what is in their own self interest and be able to discern between the two and to willingly choose the general interest of the people over their own self interest.

扎克里·戴维斯：卢梭认为，教育的作用并不是让人们在经济上有更大的收益，那反而会使个人的私利和积累财富的欲望永远持续下去。教育的真正作用是培养公民，目的是让人们有能力看清并区分什么是普遍的公共利益、什么是自己的私利，心甘情愿地选择公共利益而不是私利。

James Kloppenberg: And so the purpose of education was civics, basically, which has been now written out of almost all American curricula in favor of more math and writing. And that skill focus, I think, is just antithetical to what not only Rousseau, but most 18th century American thinkers believed education was supposed to do.

詹姆斯·克洛彭伯格：教育的目的是培养公民，而这一课如今在美国教育中几乎都被取消了，更重视的是数学和写作。但我觉得，这种注重技能的做法与卢梭和大多数18世纪美国思想家所提倡的教育内容背道而驰。

Zachary Davis: Rousseau knew that it would be impossible for every single person to act in the general will of the people. So instead, he thought the people should elect educated representatives who would act on behalf of the people they represented.

扎克里·戴维斯：卢梭深知不可能让每一个人都按照公意行事。所以他认为，人民应该选出受过教育的代表，代表他们人民行事。

James Kloppenberg: In what's known as the Geneva Manuscript, which is the rough draft of the Social Contract, Russo lays out fairly elaborate critique of direct democracy and little of it shows up in the Social Contract itself. But it's a very important argument, and I think it does fit perfectly with the argument in the published text of the social contract.

詹姆斯·克洛彭伯格：在被称作《日内瓦手稿》的《社会契约论》第一稿中，卢梭详细批判了直接民主。这些内容在正式版里面大部分都被删去了，但我觉得这是个非常重要的论点，和书中刊载的其他论点完全吻合。

James Kloppenberg: And that argument is that whenever you have direct democracy, whenever you have an assembly that includes every citizen, then the tumult is going to be such that every individual is likelier to see his individual interests or the interest of his family or his region as sovereign.

詹姆斯·克洛彭伯格：卢梭认为，如果你政府实行直接民主，召开包含所有公民的大会，那么情况就会变的混乱——每个人都更有可能把他的个人、家庭或所在地区的利益视为最重要的利益。

James Kloppenberg: And it's only when you choose representatives and bring those representatives together that they have an opportunity to hear each other, to listen to each other, statement of their interests, and that from that interplay of separate individual interests can emerge, not just emerge, but can emerge something like the general will.

詹姆斯·克洛彭伯格：只有选出代表，让代表们聚在一起开会，他们才有机会倾听彼此谈论所代表的利益。在交流、分析完各自的个人利益之后，才有可能产生公意。

James Kloppenberg: And so representative democracy for Rousseau is not a second best or somehow undesirable form of government. It is instead the closest that human beings can come in the social contract, he says. If we were writing a government for gods and not men, then democracy would be fine. But what he means by that is direct democracy would be fine.

詹姆斯·克洛彭伯格：所以卢梭觉得，代议制民主并不是次优选，也不是什么要不得的政府组织形式。相反，它是社会契约中最接近理想状态的一种形式。如果我们是为神而不是人组建政府，那么采用民主（准确来说是直接民主）就可以了。

James Kloppenberg: When he's asked by Poland and by Corsica to write constitutions, he gives both of them versions of representative democracy. Because in both cases, even in the case of Corsica, even in this small island, he says, it's not possible for everybody to know everybody else. It's not possible for everybody to gather together in the same place.

詹姆斯·克洛彭伯格：当波兰和科西嘉邀请他为他们编写宪法时，他给了他们两个代议制民主的设计。他认为，在这两个地方，即使是在科西嘉这个小岛上，也不可能每个人都了解其他人，不可能让所有人都聚集在同一个地方。

James Kloppenberg: You can only make it work by selecting out the people with the greatest civic virtue, the people who are judged to be the wisest and noblest of the citizens, and giving them the authority to make laws which then should be submitted to the citizenry. So sovereignty remains with the people, but government and administration go to those who are best able to find the general will and to incorporate it in what they offer as legislation.

詹姆斯·克洛彭伯格：你只能在公民中选出最聪明、最高尚的人，给予他们制定法律的权力，制定完后将法律提交给全体公民。这样一来，主权仍然在人民手中，而政府和行政管理权被赋予给那些最有可能找到公意并愿意在立法中捍卫公意的人。

Zachary Davis: France at the time was in no position to put Rousseau’s ideas for a more equal society into practice, and he knew this. Before they could revamp the government and education system, they had to redistribute the wealth.

扎克里·戴维斯：法国在当时还没有能力实现卢梭的想法，没有办法打造卢梭理想中更平等地社会。卢梭也深知这一点。法国要想改造政府和教育系统，就必须先重新分配财富。

James Kloppenberg: The question of how you construct from the horribly unequal conditions of the 18th century, a more egalitarian and civically minded culture was a question that Rousseau again was among the first to address by virtue of the tool of progressive taxation.

詹姆斯·克洛彭伯格：如何才能在极度不平等的18世纪的法国培养出更平等、更有公民意识的文化？卢梭再次颇具创造性的解答了这个问题。他的答案仍然是：征收累进税。

James Kloppenberg: In 18th century France, the nobility paid no taxes. Taxes were paid only by the common people who had no set, no say in government whatsoever. There was no voice for the ordinary people, and yet they were the ones who paid to fund government and the church.

詹姆斯·克洛彭伯格：在18世纪的法国，贵族不用交税。交税的只有普通民众，但他们在政府中没有任何发言权。他们无处发声，却为政府和教会提供着资金。

James Kloppenberg: From Rousseau’s point of view that was backwards. He argued that the richer you are, the greater your debt to society and the higher your obligation should be. And the argument was not just the fairness of taxation itself, but the purpose of taxation. And for Rousseau, it had an explicitly redistributive purpose so that you took from the wealthiest, gave to the poorest in order that inequality could be mitigated.

詹姆斯·克洛彭伯格：卢梭觉得这太落后了。他认为，你越有钱，对社会亏欠的就越多，你的义务就应该更大。他在乎的不仅仅是税收的公平性，更在于税收的目的。卢梭认为税收的明确目的是再分配：从最富有的人那里征来钱财，分配给最贫穷的人，从而缓解不平等。

James Kloppenberg: So Rousseau was among the first to say there's a way to deal with this and it isn't to shut off enterprise or to shut off the attempt to create wealth. The only way you can deal with it is to say once you have that wealth, we're going to redistribute a fraction of it to the people who have the least resources in order to attack this problem of rising inequality.

詹姆斯·克洛彭伯格：卢梭开创性地提出了除关停企业、阻止人们创造财富之外，真正解决不平等问题的方法。一旦你拥有了许多财富，我们就要把其中一部分重新分配给那些拥有最少资源的人，来防止不平等加剧。这才是真正的解决之道。

Zachary Davis: How else is he depicting his ideal society? Does he paint a portrait of, you know, other elements that should be reformed in France and across Europe?

扎克里·戴维斯：他还如何描绘了他的理想社会？他是否还阐述了法国乃至整个欧洲其他需要改革的方面？

James Kloppenberg: Rousseau doesn't, I think maybe deliberately sketch his utopia because he thinks that it's going to look different for every culture, at every moment in historical time. Poland is a monarchy. And so when he's asked to write a constitution for Poland, he writes the constitution for a constitutional monarchy.

詹姆斯·克洛彭伯格：卢梭或许并没有刻意去描绘他的乌托邦，因为他认为每一种文化在历史的每一个时刻都会有不同的面貌。波兰是一个君主制国家，所以当他受邀为波兰编写宪法的时候，他写的是君主立宪制的宪法。

James Kloppenberg: And it has a federal system because Poland is a large kingdom. And so you need to have authority split up into various pieces. Corsica is not so large. So it's possible to operate in a slightly different way. But I think that the awareness Rousseau shows in both of those exercises and in that dedication to Geneva, that things are going to be different in every culture.

詹姆斯·克洛彭伯格：波兰是一个大王国，于是他设计了一个中央政府，把权力分成不同的部分。科西嘉岛没有这么大，可以用稍微不同的方式来运作。但我认为卢梭在这两次尝试和写给日内瓦的中展现了一种意识，那就是每个文化中的政府组织形式都会有所不同。

James Kloppenberg: I mean, some cultures like Calvinist Janiva, are intensely religious, other cultures have either a different religion or less religions. Some cultures have a tradition of centralized authority, other cultures have a tradition of local authority. So I think it's our manea to find that in Rousseau that blinds us to his own uneasiness with the idea that one size fits all and his sensitivity to the particularity of every time and place.

詹姆斯·克洛彭伯格：有些文化，比如加尔文主义带有强烈的宗教色彩；有些宗教色彩没那么浓，甚至完全没有。有的文化有中央集权的传统；有的文化有地方自治的传统。我们可以在卢梭身上看到，他对一刀切的做法深感不安，对不同时期和不同地方的特殊性非常敏感。

James Kloppenberg: And Rousseau himself says that it will never happen perfectly, but he says it would be like having a frictionless surface to have individual wills mesh perfectly with the general will. There's always going to be friction in this machine of government. And the question is, how do you deal with that friction and how do you minimize that friction.

詹姆斯·克洛彭伯格：卢梭认为社会契约永远不会是完美的。想要让个人意愿和公意完美一致，那无异于想要在世界上找到一个没有摩擦力的光滑表面。政府这台机器上总是会有摩擦。问题在于如何处理这种摩擦，如何将它降到最低。

James Kloppenberg: And you minimize it by civic education, by getting people to question their own individual interests rather than treating their individual interests as paramount and unchallengeable. And you reduce it by having in positions of authority people who are looking not to the interest of their particular constituency, but to the public good, to the equitable as opposed to the particular.

詹姆斯·克洛彭伯格：你的方法是借助公民教育，让人民学会反思个人利益，不再觉得它们至高无上、不可动摇。你还将权力赋予那些不为自己的选区谋私利、而是服务于公共利益的人。他们求的是公平，而不是特定的利益。这样一来，你就能减少摩擦。

Zachary Davis: In the decade after Rousseau published The Social Contract, his ideas on government found a welcome home in the hearts and minds of the founding fathers of the United States. The young nation needed a government, and its early political leaders drew inspiration from Rousseau when drafting the U.S. Constitution. John Adams, the second president of the United States even referred directly to Rousseau’s writings when he was drafting the Massachusetts state constitution.

扎克里·戴维斯：在卢梭出版《社会契约论》的十年后，他的政府思想得到了美国开国元勋的热烈欢迎。这个年轻的国家需要一个政府。早期政治领导人起草美国宪法时，从卢梭那里得到了启发。美国第二任总统约翰·亚当斯在起草马萨诸塞州宪法时，甚至直接引用了卢梭著作中的话。

James Kloppenberg: He recommends to his wife that she read Rousseau. He and Jefferson mentioned Rousseau in their correspondence, Adams's Thoughts On Government, which is the little pamphlet written in 1776 that becomes the template for several state constitutions and then by extension for the federal constitution in 1787, has Rousseau all over it.

詹姆斯·克洛彭伯格：他建议他的妻子阅读卢梭，他和杰斐逊在通信中也提到了卢梭。1776年，亚当斯写下了《关于政府的思考》。这本小册子成为好几个州宪法的模板。甚至1787年宪法里面都充满了卢梭思想的印记。

James Kloppenberg: I mean, it's very much, very clearly influenced by the idea that the purpose of government is to find the public interest and coming out of the congregational culture that Adams was raised in. And that was still vibrant in New England in the 1760s and 1770s.

詹姆斯·克洛彭伯格：很显然，它受到了两种文化的影响。一是卢梭的思想，认为政府的目的就是实现公共利益。二是亚当斯所在地区的公理会文化。在1760、70年代的新英格兰，这种文化仍然很活跃。

James Kloppenberg: It's perfectly understandable that you would see authority bubbling up.That's what congregational ecclesiology was all about. You can gather your community together and you're gathered community makes the decisions as a corporate body. So that's through town government, just as is true of church government in colonial New England. And so for Adams, Rousseau's idea of finding a way in good Augustinian fashion or Calvinist fashion to harness your will and make your will congruent with the public interest, that's the first principle of government.

詹姆斯·克洛彭伯格：所以不难理解，这些文件中总是会出现权威，或者说代表。这就是公理会的纪律。你可以把你们这群人集合起来，以集体的名义做出共同决策。这就是镇一级政府的做法，有点像新英格兰殖民时期教会的做法。在亚当斯看来，卢梭是想以优良的奥古斯丁式或加尔文式的方式，找到一种办法来驾驭你的意志，让你的意志与公意相一致。这是政府的第一条原则。

James Kloppenberg: Jefferson, too, is a reader of Rousseau, and one can see both his pre Declaration of Independence writings and his post Declaration of Independence writings as strongly influenced by Rousseau in much the same way that Adams’s are.

詹姆斯·克洛彭伯格：杰斐逊也是卢梭的忠实读者。我们可以看到，和亚当斯一样，他在《独立宣言》前和《独立宣言》后的作品都受到了卢梭的强烈影响。

Zachary Davis: In the mid 20th century, in the aftermath of the horrors of WWII and the Holocaust, people began to look at Rousseau differently. His ideas about freedom became linked to totalitarianism. In 1958, the Russian philosopher Isaiah Berlin wrote an essay that linked Rousseau’s ideas to the rise of totalitarianism.

扎克里·戴维斯：20世纪中期，在经历了二战和大屠杀的恐怖情形之后，人们开始对卢梭有了新的看法。他的自由的思想开始与极权主义联系到了一起。1958年，俄国出生的哲学家以赛亚·柏林写了一篇文章，将卢梭的思想与极权主义的兴起联系到了一起。

James Kloppenberg: And Berlin, in this essay, Two Concepts of Liberty, distinguished between what he called negative freedom, or freedom from government intrusion, and positive freedom. And he associated positive freedom with the idea that there was only one way to exercise your freedom, that you had to have your freedom channeled into a particular way, into a particular form, and that the state would determine what that form should be.

詹姆斯·克洛彭伯格：柏林在《两种自由概念》中区分了他所谓的“消极自由”和“积极自由”，前者又称“免于政府干涉的自由”。他指出，积极自由会导致，你只有一种方式来行使你的自由，你必须把自由引入到一种特定的形式中，而国家将决定这种形式应该是什么。

James Kloppenberg: And so, from Berlin's point of view, both Stalin's Soviet Union and Hitler's Germany were examples of how positive freedom led to totalitarianism. And Berlin traces the idea of positive freedom to Rousseau.

詹姆斯·克洛彭伯格：在柏林看来，斯大林时期的苏联和希特勒时期的德国都展现了积极自由如何导致极权主义。他还将积极自由的理念源头追溯到了卢梭。

Zachary Davis: This reading of Rousseau has influenced how scholars and historians view the French Revolution. Maximilien Robespierre, an influential figure in the French Revolution, drew inspiration from Rousseau’s ideas on freedom. In the early 1790s, Robespierre led the Reign of Terror that executed tens of thousands of French aristocrats and perceived sympathizers on the guillotine.

扎克里·戴维斯：对卢梭的这种解读影响了学者和历史学家对法国大革命的看法。马克西米连·罗伯斯庇尔是法国大革命中颇具影响力的人物。他从卢梭的自由思想中获得了启发。1790年代初，罗伯斯庇尔领导了恐怖统治，在断头台上处决了数以万计的法国贵族和保皇派的所谓同情者。

James Kloppenberg: But I think it is striking to me that it is really in the wake of World War Two, it is after the experience of Hitler's Germany and the fear of Stalin's Soviet Union that Rousseau comes to be the theorist of totalitarianism. Until then, the progressives did not see Rousseau that way. The new dealers did not see Rousseau that way. If you see him through his own texts rather than the use to which Robespierre puts his texts, then I think he looks very different indeed.

詹姆斯·克洛彭伯格：不过我觉得需要注意的是，在纳粹德国和斯大林时期之后，才有人把卢梭看作极权主义理论家。在此之前，进步人士和实施新政的人都没有这样看待卢梭。在学习卢梭的时候，只要你看的卢梭自己的文本，而不是罗伯斯庇尔对他的理解，那么你了解到的卢梭肯定很不一样。

Zachary Davis: Rousseau’s ideas have continued to inspire people throughout history because he touched on something universal. Everyone wants to be free, but how can you have full freedom in a society where your impulses and desires have the potential to be harmful to your neighbor? Rousseau’s ideas on government offer a vision of how we can coexist and experience freedom simultaneously.

扎克里·戴维斯：在历史上，卢梭的思想一直鼓舞着人们，因为他探讨了一些普遍性的东西。每个人都希望拥有自由，但如果在社会中，你的冲动和欲望有可能伤害到邻居，那怎么能获得彻底的自由呢？卢梭关于政府的构想为我们勾勒出一个既能保证人们和谐共处、又能确保个体自由的美好蓝图。

James Kloppenberg: I think perhaps the anecdote which might or might not be apocryphal, that the one time Kant missed his five o'clock walk through Königsberg was when he read Rousseau. And I think that makes sense because Rousseau makes vivid in Emile and almost irresistible in The Social Contract, a vision that lines up almost perfectly with a categorical imperative and with what he writes about Republican government.

詹姆斯·克洛彭伯格：关于卢梭，还有一段小趣闻，虽然不知道是真是假。有一次，康德读卢梭的作品读得太投入了，以至于那天他忘了像往常一样，在哥尼斯堡散五分钟步。我觉得这说通的，因为卢梭的《爱弥儿》太有意思了，《社会契约论》也叫人爱不释手。这些作品中的美好的蓝图和他提出的改革措施与共和制政府形式相一致。

James Kloppenberg: And I think many people have had that experience with Rousseau that somehow when they read either of the discourses or Emile or The Social Contract or some of his other writings, which are seen as the founding text of the tradition of romanticism.

詹姆斯·克洛彭伯格：我想很多人在阅读卢梭的著作的时候，不论是《爱弥儿》、《社会契约论》还是其他什么，都有过读入迷了的经历。他的著作被视为浪漫主义的开端。

James Kloppenberg: So here's a figure who's both of the central figure in one of the central figures in the Enlightenment and the founding father of Romanticism. A lot of people have that experience. When they read Rousseau, something clicks, light bulbs go off. They see something both critical about where they are and an ideal that they find so attractive as to be almost irresistible.

詹姆斯·克洛彭伯格：卢梭既是启蒙运动的核心人物之一，又是浪漫主义的创始人。很多人读卢梭的时候，都感觉恍然大悟，像是心里一盏灯突然被点亮了。他们既看到了对所处现实的批判，又看到了一种极具吸引力的、难以拒绝的美好理想。

James Kloppenberg: And I don't know that there are too many other thinkers that you can say that about. there's nobody I would choose over Rousseau, I'll put it that way. I mean, it may be a Plato with a half dozen people on it, but I think he's up there in the Pantheon. If we were going to do a Mount Rushmore of modern thinkers, I think he would be among the people would want to carve into that stone.

詹姆斯·克洛彭伯格：我不知道有多少别的思想家可以这么去夸。但我只会这么夸卢梭。万神殿里也许只有柏拉图和其他五六个人，但其中绝对有卢梭。如果我们要为近现代思想家立一座拉什莫尔山，那么人们一定会把卢梭的雕像刻在那块石头上。

Zachary Davis: Writ Large is a production of Ximalaya. Writ Large is produced by Jack Pombriant, Liza French, and me, Zachary Davis. Script editing is by Galen Beebe. We get help from Feiran Du, Ariel Liu, and Monica Zhang. Our theme song is by Ian Coss. Don’t miss an episode. Subscribe today in the Ximalaya app. Thanks for listening. See you next time.

扎卡里·戴维斯：本节目由喜马拉雅独家制作播出。感谢您的收听，我们下期再见！​