【英文原声版18】Gary Urton：The First New Chronicle and Good Government

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英文文稿+中文翻译 

What’s the story of Spanish conquest?

西班牙是如何征服印加的？

Zachary Davis: The Inca believed their empire was founded by a god.

扎卡里·戴维斯：印加人相信他们的帝国是由神建立的。

Gary Urton: The first chroniclers declared that the Inca was the son of the sun, Intip Churin. They claimed that from the beginning he had said that his father was the sun. His mother was the moon, his sister was the morning star. His idol was Huana Cauri. And the place from which the Incas had emerged was Tambo Toko, also known as Pacari tumbo.

加里·厄顿：第一批编年史家声称印加人是“因蒂普·丘林”，即太阳之子。他们声称印加人从一开始就认为因蒂普·丘林的父亲是太阳，母亲是月亮，姐妹是晨星。他崇拜的神是瓦纳·考里。印加人大多分布在坦博杜库，这个地方也被称为帕卡里坦博。

Zachary Davis: That’s Gary Urton, a professor of pre-Columbian studies at Harvard University, reading from The First New Chronicle and Good Government. The myth says the first Incas followed instructions given to them by the sun God, Inti, to find the fertile land where they would build their kingdom. Archeological evidence suggests the Inca first settled near present-day Cuzco in the year 1200. Over the next two centuries, they built out a small kingdom ruled by a lineage of kings.

扎卡里·戴维斯：这位是哈佛大学研究前哥伦布时期文明的加里·厄顿教授，他刚刚阅读的是《第一本新编年史与善政》这本书的选段。相传，第一批印加人遵循太阳神因蒂的谕令，寻找一片肥沃土地来建立王国。考古证据表明，印加人于1200年首次定居在今天的库斯科附近。在随后的两个世纪里，他们建立了一个由世袭国王统治的小王国。

Gary Urton: So we use the term Inca, generally, we sort of use it broadly to refer to everybody who was subject to the Inca Empire. So we sort of talk about the Incas and you get Empire. But the Incas were actually a lineage, a bloodline and they were of the dynasty that came to power at this period around the 1470s. There were about a dozen kings who rule from the founding of the dynasty until the time, until the arrival of the Spaniards.

加里·厄顿：我们通常使用“印加”一词，来泛指印加帝国统治下的每个人。所以我们谈到印加人的时候，想到的自然是印加帝国。不过印加其实是一个从15世纪70年代起掌权并开启新王朝的血缘家族。在西班牙人到来前，王朝历经了大约十二代国王。

Zachary Davis: In 1438, the kingdom was ruled by Pachacuti. He wanted to extend his realm, and he sent his army to fight off the neighboring Chanka tribe. From there, the expansion continued.

扎卡里·戴维斯：1438年，帕查库提登上王位。他想要开疆拓土，于是派军队击败了附近的昌卡部落，并一路攻城略地，继续扩张。

Gary Urton: At its height, the empire stretched from what is today the border between Ecuador and Colombia, southward down through Colombia, through Peru, much of Bolivia, northwest Argentina. And down to about the middle of what is today Chile.

加里·厄顿：在全盛时期，帝国的疆域从今天的厄瓜多尔与哥伦比亚的边界处一直向南延伸，跨越了哥伦比亚、秘鲁、玻利维亚的大部分地区以及阿根廷西北部，一直延伸到今天的智利中部。

Zachary Davis: Experts believe the Inca empire included 9-12 million people. It was the largest empire in Central or South America—far larger than the Maya or Aztecs. One of the Inca’s most significant accomplishments is Machu Picchu, a royal estate that sits on a mountain ridge 50 miles northwest of Cuzco. This massive structure was built during Pachacuti’s rule, in around 1450. The Inca used a complex record keeping system called Quipus. The quipus are strings made of fiber, such as wool or cotton, which are intricately knotted to record numerical information.

扎卡里·戴维斯：专家们认为印加帝国有九百万至一千两百万人口，是中美洲和南美洲最大的帝国，远大于玛雅帝国和阿兹台克帝国。印加帝国最重要的贡献之一是马丘比丘，这是一座皇家庄园，坐落在库斯科西北50英里的山岭上。这个巨大的庄园于1450年前后在帕查库提统治时期建造。印加人创造了一种叫“奇普”的记事方法，奇普是一种复杂的、保存信息的系统，通过在羊毛线、棉线等纤维线上打错综复杂的结，来记录数字信息。

Gary Urton: They kept administrative information, information, for instance, on censuses, on tribute, on various other kinds of administrative data.

加里·厄顿：他们记录了行政信息，如关于人口普查、贡赋交纳等各种行政数据。

Zachary Davis: Around 750 quipus are known to exist today. These quipus are all the documentation we have from the Inca themselves.

扎卡里·戴维斯：如今已知现存约750个奇普，这些是现存唯一的出自印加人之手的史料。

Gary Urton: They didn't write. And so therefore, they couldn't tell us about themselves. They didn't tell us about themselves.

加里·厄顿：他们没有文字，所以没办法记述自己的情况。他们也没有告诉我们这些现代人关于他们自己的任何信息。

Zachary Davis: Aside from the quipus, the Inca had no written record—...except... for.. one... book: The First New Chronicle and Good Government.

扎卡里·戴维斯：除了奇普，印加人几乎没有书面记录。不过有一本书例外，那就是《第一本新编年史与善政》。

Gary Urton: It is the story of the world of the Andes, as understood, seen as represented by a native Andean person.

加里·厄顿：据了解，这本书讲述了安第斯山脉地区的故事，这个故事被看作是由一个安第斯当地居民所讲述的。

Zachary Davis: Welcome to Writ Large, a podcast about how books change the world. I’m Zachary Davis. In each episode, I sit down with one of the world’s leading scholars to talk about one book that changed the course of history. For this episode, I sat down with Harvard professor Gary Urton to discuss The First New Chronicle and Good Government. This is one of the most important works about Indigenous American communities, but it came really close to being lost forever.

扎卡里·戴维斯：欢迎收听：100本改变你和世界的书，在这里我们为大家讲述改变世界的书籍。我是扎卡里·戴维斯。每一集，我都会和一位世界顶尖学者探讨一本影响历史进程的书。在本集，我和哈佛大学教授加里·厄顿一起讨论《第一本新编年史与善政》。这本书是介绍美洲原住民的重要经典之一，却险些永远遗失在历史长河中。

Zachary Davis: The First New Chronicle and Good Government was written in the early 1600s by an indigenous man named Guaman Poma. Guaman Poma was born shortly after the Spanish invaded the Inca empire in 1532.

扎卡里·戴维斯：《第一本新编年史与善政》于17世纪早期由一位名叫瓜曼·波马的印加原住民撰写。1532年，西班牙人刚刚开始入侵印加帝国，瓜曼·波马就在那之后的一段时间里出生。

Gary Urton: He tells us in his book, that he was the son of an indigenous lord. And he says that then his mother was a descendant of one of the Inca kings, Topa Inca Yupanqui. That was the tenth Inca King.

加里·厄顿：他在书中告诉我们，自己的父亲是一位印加领主，母亲是印加国王托帕·印加·尤潘基的后裔，这位国王是印加第十代国王。

ZacharyDavis: The book is almost 1200 pages long and isconstructed in three parts: first, Guaman Poma told the story of the world of the Andesbefore the Spanish conquest. At this time, the Native Andean cultures werestill intact, under Inca rule. Then, he describes the decline of the Incaempire and the arrival of the Spanish.

扎卡里·戴维斯：这本书总共约1200页，分为三部分。他在第一部分讲述了西班牙入侵前安第斯居民的故事。当时，在印加帝国的统治下，安第斯原住民文化仍然完好无损。随后，他讲述了印加帝国的衰落以及西班牙人的到来。

ZacharyDavis: Around 1524, mysterious new diseases began to spreaddown the western coast of South America from present-day Central America.Spanish conquerors had invaded these lands and brought their European diseaseswith them, like smallpox, measles, malaria, and the common cold. Theseillnesses killed between 80 and 90% of the empire before the conquerors hadeven arrived.

扎卡里·戴维斯：1524年前后，神秘的新疾病开始从如今的中美洲传播到南美西海岸。西班牙征服者入侵了这些地区，带来了天花、麻疹、疟疾、流感等欧洲疾病。这些疾病甚至在征服者完全到来之前就杀死了帝国80％至90％的人。

ZacharyDavis: At this time, the Inca emperor was a man namedHuayna Capac. He was the grandson of the emperor, Pachacuti. Huayna Capac diedfrom one of the Spaniard’s diseases, and so did his rightful heir. Upon theirdeaths, his two other sons began to fight for the throne. Their battle turnedinto a civil war, which further weakened the already declining empire. Thecivil war came to an end when one of the sons, Atahualpa, defeated his brotherand assumed the throne.

扎卡里·戴维斯：当时的印加国王名叫瓦伊纳•卡帕克，是帕查库提的孙子。瓦伊纳·卡帕克死于西班牙传染病，他的王位继承人死于同样的病因。于是，卡帕克的另外两个儿子开始争夺王位，这逐渐演变成了一场内战，进一步削弱了已经日薄西山的帝国的实力。最终，其中一个儿子阿塔瓦尔帕击败自己的兄弟，登上王位，内战就此结束。

ZacharyDavis: The next day, Atahualpa learned that the Spanishwere on their way. He agreed to meet with them, assuming that their small armywould be no match for his troops. But more Spanish soldiers were hiding,waiting to ambush Atahualpa. They captured him and held him hostage for a year.

扎卡里·戴维斯：第二天，阿塔瓦尔帕得知西班牙人前来拜访。他同意面见西班牙人，自以为对方的孤军薄旅无法匹敌自己的百万雄兵。然而多数西班牙士兵埋伏起来，等待着伏击阿塔瓦尔帕。他们俘虏了他并将其扣为人质一年。

ZacharyDavis: In the book, Guaman Poma describes the Spanishconquest. The Spanish converted all the indigenous people they could toChristianity and killed everyone who resisted. They concentrated the indigenouspopulations into settlements and created a newcapital city—Lima. The third part of the book describes the end of the conquestand the beginning of Spanish colonial rule. Guaman Poma’s book is significantlydifferent than other accounts of the Inca empire and the Spanish invasion.

扎卡里·戴维斯：在书中，瓜曼·波马讲述了西班牙人是如何征服印加的。西班牙人尽可能让所有原住民皈依基督教，并杀死了所有拒绝的人。他们将原住民集中到保留地，并建立了一个名叫“利马”的新首都。这本书的第三部分讲述了西班牙人结束征服，开始殖民统治。瓜曼·波马的书与其他有关印加帝国和西班牙入侵的记载大不

Why did Poma want to write this book to the Spanish king?

波马为什么想给西班牙国王写这本书？

Gary Urton: The accounts we have of the Inca Empire are ones that are drawn from accounts written by Spaniards after the time of the conquest. So, these were works that were written by adventurers, by travelers, by clerics, by administrative officials, following this date of conquest of 1532.

加里·厄顿：我们如今知道的关于印加帝国的记载大多出自西班牙人之手，写于他们征服印加帝国之后。这些作品是在1532年西班牙征服印加之后由探险家、旅行者、牧师和行政官员撰写的。

Zachary Davis: It’s hard to imagine that they're all reliable narrators.

扎卡里·戴维斯：可想而知，他们的记叙很难称得上全部可靠。

Gary Urton: Exactly. That's exactly the point here. And that was the point for Guaman Poma himself.

加里·厄顿：对，这就是问题的重点。而且瓜曼·波马本人也是这么想的。

Zachary Davis: Guaman Poma’s native languages were Quechua and Aymara, but he also knew some Spanish. He learned to read and write from a half-brother who was a half-Spanish priest. As a young man, GuamanPoma read some of these early accounts of the Inca Empire and the Spanish conquest.

扎卡里·戴维斯：瓜曼·波马的母语是盖丘亚语（克丘亚语）和艾马拉语，但他也懂一点西班牙语。他从一位同父异母兄弟那里学习读写，这个兄弟是西班牙混血，在做牧师。瓜曼·波马小时候读过一些有关印加帝国和西班牙征服印加的早期记载。

Gary Urton: In those accounts, many of the Spaniards had an axe to grind. They had an interest. They were trying to prove that the Incas were tyrants and that therefore, the Spaniards’ conquest of the Inca Empire, was totally legitimate because they were ridding the people of tyrannical rule.

加里·厄顿：在这些记载中，许多西班牙人另藏私心，打着自己的小算盘。他们试图证明印加国王是暴君，以此证明西班牙人对印加帝国的征服是完全合法的，是在帮助印加人民摆脱暴君的统治。

Zachary Davis: Guaman Poma shared some of these concerns. He knew about life in the pre-Inca Andean communities, and he did not think highly of the conquering Inca empire. In fact, he thought they were immoral. His half-brother had converted the family to Christianity, and Guaman Poma saw the indigenous communities through this lens.

扎卡里·戴维斯：瓜曼·波马同意其中的一部分观点。他了解印加帝国建立之前安第斯地区的生活，所以没有大肆赞美称霸该地区的印加帝国。他反而觉得他们不怎么道德。他的同父异母兄弟让全家皈依基督教，而瓜曼·波马正是在以这一视角了解原住民群体。

Gary Urton: He actually believed that the indigenous Andean people were, quote unquote, Christian before the arrival of Europeans but that they had been corrupted by the Incas and that the Incas had come in and convinced people to worship these false idols like the Inca king himself, who claimed to be divine and the son of the sun, etc.

加里·厄顿：他其实认为，安第斯原著民在欧洲人到来之前是所谓的基督教徒，但他们被印加人腐蚀。印加人闯进来，说服他们崇拜印加国王等荒谬的神祇。印加国王声称自己是神，是太阳之子。

Zachary Davis: In the mid-1500s, Guaman Poma traveled around the countryside with a Christian missionary who was trying to get people to stop worshipping indigenous idols and convert to Christianity. This experience had an important influence on Guaman Poma. He helped the friar he was traveling with complete two chronicles, including illustrations. But he also saw how Spanish missionaries abused indigenous people. This was a turning point for Guaman Poma.

扎卡里·戴维斯：在16世纪中期，瓜曼·波马和一位基督教传教士一起在乡间游历，这位传教士试图让人们不要再崇拜原住民的神祇，而是皈依基督教。这段经历对瓜曼·波马产生了重要影响。他协助同行的传教士完成了整整两部编年史，包括插图的部分。但他也目睹了西班牙传教士如何虐待原住民。这让瓜曼·波马的想法发生了巨大转变。

Gary Urton: While he had his quibbles with the Incas, as he nonetheless believed fervently that Andean culture was extraordinarily complex, that there was sort of a basic morality to it and that in fact Andean people and Andean culture was being corrupted by the Spaniards.

加里·厄顿：尽管他会发发关于印加人的牢骚，但他还是真心觉得安第斯文化非常复杂，包含了某种基本的道德观，而且安第斯人民和文化其实正遭到西班牙人的破坏。

Gary Urton: And I think he probably knew that there was no other voice that was coming forward. I think he probably knew the extraordinary nature of his background that there were not that many highly literate, well-read indigenous people in the 1570s and 80s or so in Peru. And one can only imagine that he felt a responsibility to be the voice that spoke for this these people and for this civilization.

加里·厄顿：我想他或许意识到记载中从来没出现别的说法。他或许意识到自己的背景是多么不同寻常：在16世纪七、八十年代，秘鲁没有多少受过良好教育、博览群书的原住民。可以想象，他觉得自己有责任为安第斯人民和文化发声。

Zachary Davis: So, he set out to write this book.

扎卡里·戴维斯：于是他开始写这本书。

Gary Urton: It is an exhausting book to read. It's got, you know, partially in Spanish. And then he'll switch to Quechua one switch to Aymara and back to Spanish. And the Spanish is not great. He’s often been criticized by scholars of Spanish of the golden age. You know, it's not the king's English, right, nor the king's Spanish.

加里·厄顿：这本书读起来很费劲，书里一会是西班牙语，一会又切换到盖丘亚语（克丘亚语），再到艾马拉语，然后又切回西班牙语。而且书里的西班牙语也不怎么流畅。他饱为黄金时代的西班牙学者所诟病，批评这既不是标准的英语，也不是标准的西班牙语。

Zachary Davis: Along with all the written languages, there are also illustrations.

扎卡里·戴维斯：书里面除了文字描述，还有插图。

Gary Urton: A picture is worth a thousand words and he has 400 drawings or so. These drawings are drawings of life in Peru before, during and after the time of the Spanish conquest. He's showing us there what he understood about the nature of the dress, of the nobility, about the dress, of the sort of lower nobility, about the dress and clothing of the commoners, about how people, what their agricultural implements looked like, what it looked like when they were hunting birds out in the field at harvest time and trying to, you know, drive the birds off from the crops and all of these as mundane things that he gives us visual representations. He gives us illustrations of this wide range of activities that people were involved in before the conquest, during, and after the conquest.

加里·厄顿：一张图片堪比一千个文字。波马在书里绘制了400张左右的图片，描绘了西班牙征服印加之前、之时和之后秘鲁地区的生活。他向我们展示了自己对大贵族、小领主以及平民百姓服饰内涵的理解，展示了人们农具的样子以及人们在丰收时节如何猎鸟、如何将鸟儿从农作物上赶走。所有这些日常生活，他都用图片的形式呈现在书中。他向我们描绘了征服之前、之时和之后人们广泛参与的种种生活。

Zachary Davis: Guaman Poma wasn’t alive during Inca rule, but his parents were, and he grew up with indigenous traditions and practices. But Guaman Poma wasn’t just trying to document life before the Spanish conquest.

扎卡里·戴维斯：瓜曼·波马并没有生活在印加帝国统治时期，但他的父母生活在那时，所以他成长于原住民文化传统中。不过他并非仅仅记录了西班牙入侵之前人们的生活。

Gary Urton: In Guaman Poma’s mind, he had one reader that mattered. And that reader was Philip III, the king of Spain. And he addresses himself directly to the king of Spain. And he has a number of drawings. But in one of those he imagines himself presenting his book to Philip III. So he shows this scene of Philip III sitting on the D.S. and on his throne, and Guaman Poma's on his knees before him with his manuscript in his hand, handing it to him.

加里·厄顿：瓜曼·波马想象着自己有一位极为重要的读者，那就是西班牙国王腓力三世。他直接与国王对话，还画了许多图片。他还想象着把自己的书介绍给腓力三世。所以在一幅插图里他展示了这样一幅场景：腓力三世坐在王座上，而自己则手持书稿跪在他面前，正在将书稿呈过去。

Zachary Davis: Why did he want to write to the king? What was he hoping would happen?

扎卡里·戴维斯：他为什么想要给国王写这本书呢？他期待发生什么？

Gary Urton: He understood the structure of power in the colony. He understood that the king was the principal arbiter of justice and that all exercise of power was under the command of the king. And so he knew that if he actually wanted to effect change, that it could only be done by gaining the sympathy of the king of Spain.

加里·厄顿：他了解殖民地的权力结构，知道主要由国王主持正义，所有政策实施都遵从国王的旨令。所以他清楚，如果真的想要改变现状，就只能先博取西班牙国王的认同。

Gary Urton: And in that, then he is very thoughtful and very strategic in terms of the contents of his text. He tries, to the extent possible, not to exoticize the Incas. He tries to sort of present their culture in a way that in his mind, it might be seen sympathetically by the by Philip III.

加里·厄顿：从这点上看，他这本书的内容可谓缜密周全、讲究策略。他尽可能地淡化印加人身上的异域色彩，试图以自认为可以博取腓力三世肯定的方式介绍自己的文化。

加里·厄顿：他似乎在想象国王看这本书的感受，他不想让国王困惑，也不想冒犯他、排斥他，而是想带他一起徜徉在书中。所以在用词、术语与分类上，他都很讲究策略。至于那些极其重要的图片，他也精心设计描摹，不仅仅要传递信息，更要打动国王，争得赞同。

Gary Urton: What he really wanted Philip III to understand was that it was essential for PhilipIII to stop the conquest, that the conquest was destroying the people of the Andes and destroying the culture. And so that was his sort of great objective in writing it. And he understood that the victor writes history and that it was essential if his story was to be told that he communicated clearly and that he'd have some effect in terms of bringing a halt to the conquest.

加里·厄顿：他真心希望腓力三世可以意识到，阻止手下征服南美非常重要，这场征服摧残着安第斯地区的人民，也摧毁着当地的文化。这就是他撰写这本书的目的。他清楚历史是由胜利者书写的，也清楚自己必须清晰地表达自己的观点，这或许能从某种程度上制止西班牙人继续征服印加。

Zachary Davis: So it seems like some of the power of this book is that you have an indigenous person trying to take control of how he and his people are represented by foreign power.

扎卡里·戴维斯：这本书的一个作用似乎是，让一位原住民试着改变外国势力所展现的本民族形象。

Gary Urton: That's exactly it. Guaman Poma had read extensively and he knew the power of literature. He knew the power of history. He knew that those whose stories will eventually be told in time will be ones whose stories are written and are reproduced. And so that was the reason he wrote this, is that he wanted to give his account of what he thought about the world.

加里·厄顿：就是这样。瓜曼·波马读过很多书，他深知文学与历史的力量。他知道只有把故事书写、重现出来，这些故事才最终不会被遗忘。这就是他写这本书的原因：他想要记录自己对世界的看法。

Zachary Davis: Guaman Poma planned to have The New Chronicle sent to Europe, where it would be printed and delivered to King Philip III. So, he carried his manuscript to Lima, the capital of Peru, and from there, he put it on a boat to Spain. But his account never made it to the king. Instead, the book ended up in a library in Denmark.

扎卡里·戴维斯：瓜曼·波马打算把这本书寄到欧洲，在那里印刷并被递交给腓力三世。于是他将书稿带到秘鲁首都利马，把它放到一艘开往西班牙的船上。但是他的书稿并没有被交给国王，而是最终流落到丹麦的一个图书馆里。

Gary Urton: And there it sat unknown until 1908 when a German scholar working in the archive in Copenhagen happened upon this manuscript, what with the drawings accounts for almost fifteen or sixteen hundred pages or so.

加里·厄顿：书稿静静地躺在那儿，无人知晓。直到1908年，一位在哥本哈根档案馆工作的德国学者偶然发现了它，它才重见天日。手稿长达1500至1600页。

Zachary Davis: The book was published in France in 1944 and has been reprinted several times, including a 1980 publication in Mexico that includes both the original text and a Spanish translation.

扎卡里·戴维斯：这本书于1944年在法国出版，如今已经重印了好几版。其中一版是1980年在墨西哥出版的原文与西班牙语译文的对照版。

How did the book change the world?

这本书如何改变了世界？

Zachary Davis: So if this book sat on a shelf in Copenhagen for four hundred years, how has it come to have an effect on the world?

扎卡里·戴维斯：这本书在哥本哈根的书架上待了四百年，那么它是如何影响世界的呢？

Gary Urton: You could say there's a cottage industry in publications on Guaman Poma. Increasingly people are reading the book, paying attention to it, recognizing its significance in terms of how the indigenous world in the Americas was represented to Europeans, how people represented themselves to themselves, you know, how they told their own story and there’re very few accounts that even from indigenous North American people, from a colonial period that can compare with size, the complexity and the overall just information content, let's say, Guaman Poma’s New Chronicle and Good Governance.

加里·厄顿：瓜曼·波马这本书的出版堪称老牛拉磨。越来越多的人开始阅读、关注这本书，并认识到它在诸多方面都意义重大，比如它反映了欧洲人如何描述美洲原住民以及原住民如何描述他们自己，他们如何讲述自己的故事。殖民时期，即使在北美原住民中也很少能有哪部作品能像瓜曼·波马的《第一本新编年史与善政》一样，做到篇幅如此之长、内容如此复杂丰富、如此客观公允。

Zachary Davis: It seems like it's a case of early anti-colonial literature.

扎卡里·戴维斯：这似乎是一部早期的反殖民文学作品。

Gary Urton: You can see it very much as sort of the first work of post-colonial literature, although it's still colonial. Right? It's written by a subordinate person in a colonial regime, but someone who is very aware of the constraints of power in a colonial setting, who is railing against that, who is struggling against it, trying to find ways, rhetorical ways and various other ways to sort of reconstruct the narrative of colonialism and to undermine the power of the colonizers.

加里·厄顿：尽管它仍然具有殖民色彩，但你还是可以把它看作第一部后殖民文学作品。它是由殖民地统治下的一个被殖民者写的，但这位作者非常了解殖民统治权力受人制约，并且奋起反抗殖民统治，试图寻找各种方法，以笔为武器，重建殖民主义的叙事方式，削弱殖民者的力量。

Gary Urton: So, I mean, in a sense, it is and can be seen has not been seen so much so far as a guiding piece of literature related to post-colonialism and those sentiments and views opposing the colonial activities of Western Europe of the 15th, 16th century.

加里·厄顿：从某种意义上讲，虽然目前还没有人这么说过，但我觉得这本书堪称后殖民主义的开山之作，和当时反对西欧在15、16世纪的殖民主义的观点与活动都有关系。

Zachary Davis: Yeah, and I think in recent decades and even years here in the United States, there's an increasing focus on letting communities themselves tell their own stories. And a recognition that it's no, we can't, there is no default neutral perspective. And it seems like this text is a very early version of that recognition.

扎卡里·戴维斯：嗯，我觉得近几十年、甚至近几年来，美国人越来越注重让每个群体亲自讲述他们自己的故事，也赞同不存在绝对中立的观点。这本书似乎可以看作这种思想的滥觞。

Gary Urton: But of course, it's important to recognize that this was not being encouraged by the establishment, by the established structures of power. This was something that Guaman Poma was writing that came pretty much out of the blue. You know, from the bottom of the social ladder.

加里·厄顿：不过我们当然要认识到，这本书并非在权力机关的鼓励下写成的，而是出于瓜曼·波马个人的一腔热血，是出自社会底层之手的。

Gary Urton: The story of the Inca Empire, the accounts of the nature of Andean people known up to that time and to a large extent, still the principal story that gets told was told in the chronicles of the Spaniards. And so for the most part, those are ones that were sympathetic to the European conquest.

加里·厄顿：虽然书里讲述了印加帝国和安第斯原住民的故事，但这并没有改变西班牙人编年史里的主流叙事。而在大多数情况下，这些编年史都是站在欧洲征服者这边的。

Gary Urton: They increasingly, as they were written in later colonial times, recognized the extraordinary nature of the Inca Empire, of its accomplishments in engineering, in the arts and crafts, in weaving, metallurgy, etc.. And so there certainly is an appreciation of the accomplishments of the Inca Empire. But still, the story is told from the point of view of Spaniards.

加里·厄顿：在后来的殖民时期，编年史学家逐渐意识到印加帝国的非凡特质，以及其在工程、美术、工艺、纺织、冶金等方面的成就。他们自然开始欣赏印加帝国的成就，但还是从西班牙人的角度去叙事的。

Gary Urton: At the time, it would have been quite explosive and probably there would have been an attempt to destroy every version of it or every copy of it or every sign of it. Right? Because it would have been considered seditious and extremely dangerous to the Spanish Colonial State.

加里·厄顿：这本书在那时极易引起争论，很有可能会有人试图销毁它的每个版本、副本，让它消失殆尽。因为人们会觉得它极具煽动性，威胁了西班牙殖民政权的统治。

Zachary Davis: There's something sad and a little bit expected that a work like this was left unread and ignored for hundreds of years.

扎卡里·戴维斯：有些难过又在意料之中的是，这样的一本书在数百年里一直默默无闻、无人翻阅。

Gary Urton: Right. That's of course, that's absolutely true. On the other hand, there's something extraordinarily interesting sort of in the long historical view about the fact that had it been known at that time, it might have been destroyed. So, I mean, perhaps it came to light when it was destined to come to light, which was at a time when it could be recognized for its power and for the message that it gives about the indigenous point of view, that the anti-colonialist point of view.

加里·厄顿：嗯，确实。不过从另一方面讲，若是从长远的历史角度看，或许你会发现一个很有意思的点，那就是如果当时它为人所知，那它肯定会被销毁。所以我觉得或许它注定是要在可以被接受的时候才重见天日，到了这个时候，人们都会认同书中从原住民角度出发所传达的信息与能量，认同其中的反殖民主义思想。

Gary Urton: So it comes to us now in a time in the beginning of the 21st century that's much more receptive to that message than, you know, probably would have been the case even when it was discovered in Copenhagen in 1908.

加里·厄顿：所以在21世纪初的某个时候，我们开始提起这本书。我们对书里内容的接受度大了很多，即使与1908年这本书在哥本哈根被发现时相比也是如此。

Zachary Davis: How has it changed our understanding of the Incan empire and entire South American peoples that it describes? It surely had quite an impact on the study of South America.

扎卡里·戴维斯：它是如何改变了我们对它所描述的印加帝国和整个南美人民的看法呢？它肯定对南美研究产生了很大影响。

Gary Urton: Right. It had an extremely important impact on the study. When he tells us about, for instance, about the structure of the Inca political system, about the way that their decimal hierarchical system was organized, about the way they recruited labor for tribute, all the very sort of mechanisms whereby the Inca organized and ran the state over this extraordinary expanse of territory from Ecuador all the way down to Chile. He gives us a version of it that is often confirmed by other accounts, Spanish written accounts.

加里·厄顿：没错，它对研究产生了极其重要的影响。在讲述有关印加帝国的政治体系与结构、他们十位等级制的组织形式、他们招募劳力的方式，讲述这个从厄瓜多尔绵延到智利的辽阔帝国的各种组织运行机制时，作者给出了一个版本，而这个版本是被西班牙人和其他的记载所多次证实的。

Gary Urton: In other cases, he gives us unique versions. And of course, then we have the problem of trying to understand which is the correct version. The book itself has informed studies in a tremendous range of fields, of study, of Latin American literature and anthropology and archaeology and political science. You know, he's very interested in astronomy and numbers and mathematics. And both in his illustrations and in his text there's material we can glean there that gives us a deeper understanding of Inca sciences as well.

加里·厄顿：在其他方面，他给了我们视角独特的版本。当然还有一个问题，我们需要弄清楚哪个是正确的版本。这本书为拉丁美洲文学、人类学、考古学和政治学等广泛领域的研究都提供了信息。波马本人还对天文学、算数和数学非常感兴趣。在他的插图和文字中，我们都可以找到有助于我们理解印加科学的资料。

Zachary Davis: Because part of the magic to me, when I can imagine this text is it's 400 years old and it's trying to describe a culture that was not written down. And so because there's so few other corroborating texts, you know, I imagine there's just these references that made sense to him and his context that now we has no way of knowing what he was talking about.

扎卡里·戴维斯：对我来说最不可思议的是，这本书已经有四百年的历史了，它试图描绘一个未被记载的文明。其他可供佐证的文献如此之少，所以我想这些内容仅仅对他与他那个时代有意义，放在今天的语境下，我们也无从得知自己在说什么。

Gary Urton: Well, one of the things that he documents primarily here in his drawings, but to some extent in his writing as well, is the clothing, the dress of the Incas. There were about a dozen kings who ruled from the founding of the dynasty until the time until the arrival of the Spaniards. And so he shows us drawings of each one of those twelve kings. And in those drawings, he draws them with different kind of clothing and with different kinds of paraphernalia that they're holding. And in the drawings, then he's drawing highly, elaborately woven and embroidered three quarter length tunics. And it seems that there is a code that he's communicating in those about the nature and the status of the various kings.

加里·厄顿：嗯，他在图片中主要描绘的有印加人的服饰，在文中他也对此做了些许介绍。从王朝建立到西班牙人到来之前，印加帝国共有十二代统治者。于是他用图片描绘了十二位国王的样子，每位国王身穿不同类型的衣服，手持不同类型的个人物品。他还绘制了绣有精美图案的、七分长度的短上衣。通过这些服饰图片，他似乎暗示了每个国王的特质和地位。

Gary Urton: There's been a lot of work looking at such things. Certainly like directly at the apparel of not only the king, but the queen. So each king had his queen, who was the koya. And so there's a lot of attention, a lot of interest in what he understood to be the appropriate dress and with it the appropriate symbolic paraphernalia linked to the various kings and then how those changed over time. So that's one piece that's, you know, a very important part of the substance of the illustrations. Let's say it's not entirely understood today, but that is that we recognize is important that he was getting at something. He was very careful in how he constructed those drawings.

加里·厄顿：很多作品都在研究这些内容。当然它们不仅会研究国王的服饰，还会研究王后的服饰。每位国王都有自己的“考娅”，也就是王后。很多人都关注并好奇在他看来什么是适用于每个国王的着装与与个人物品，以及这些如何随着时代变迁而变化。所以这是图片非常重要的一部分内涵。时至今日，我们都还没完全解读清楚，但我们认为他着手做的这件事非常重要。他仔细考虑要如何绘制这些图片。

Zachary Davis: If you're at a cocktail party and someone asked you straight up, you know, how did this book change the world. How would you capture it in one or two sentences?

扎卡里·戴维斯：如果您参加鸡尾酒会，有人直截了当地问您这本书如何改变了世界。您会怎样用一两句话回答呢？

Gary Urton: I would say this book has yet to fully realize how it's going to change the world. As I said, it was lost for 350 to 400 years, just became known at the beginning of the 20th century. Its first widespread publication was only in the 1980s. The significance of it is increasingly understood. And I think that moving forward, and especially with the sort of sentiments of post-colonialism that we experienced today, that I think that it will, inevitably, I think we'll be taken up into the sort of intellectual tradition of thinking about and representing indigenous American cultures from an indigenous American point of view.

加里·厄顿：我会说这本书暂时还没能真正地改变世界。正如我所说，它遗失了350到400年，直到20世纪初才被人们所知。直到20世纪80年代，它才首次广泛出版。如今人们越来越认识到它的重要性。我觉得在未来，特别是随着后殖民主义思想的发展，这本书自然会被纳入从本族视角看待美洲原住民文化的知识传统中。

Gary Urton: And I think that as it sort of finds its way through the literature, through the academy and through popular culture in Latin America and globally, that it will be recognized as a book that gives us a unique and extraordinary view of this extraordinary part of the continent of South America before the time of the Spanish conquest.

加里·厄顿：我觉得随着这本书在文学界、学术界、拉美流行文化乃至全球文化中占据一席之地，它会被视为一本非同凡响的书，以独特视角展现着西班牙人统治之前这个奇妙的南美地区。

Zachary Davis: It strikes me that this is a book that will be seen as one of the five to ten most significant foundational works of understanding the American experience.

扎卡里·戴维斯：我认为这本书会成为了解美洲历史最重要的五到十本书之一。

Gary Urton: I would say it should be. I mean, if we look dispassionately across characterizations or representations of the American world in its indigenous form, as understood by indigenous Americans, I think it's one of the handful of books that can give us the deepest insights into that experience and into that state of being.

加里·厄顿：我相信会是这样的。如果我们毫无偏见地看待美洲原住民对美洲世界的描述与理解，这会是一本可以给我们对原住民的经历与生活状态带来深刻见解的书。

Zachary Davis: Guaman Poma didn’t succeed in ending the Spanish conquest. Peru remained a Spanish colony until 1821. But because the book was lost, he succeeded in his other goal: sharing the story of his people.

扎卡里·戴维斯：瓜曼·波马没有成功阻止西班牙人征服印加。秘鲁在1821年之前都一直是西班牙的殖民地。但正是由于这本书的遗失，他反而实现了他的另一个目标，那就是分享这些原住民的故事。

Zachary Davis: Writ Large is a production of Ximalaya. Writ Large is produced by Galen Beebe, Jack Pombriant, and me, Zachary Davis, with help from Feiran Du, Ariel Liu, Wendy Wu, and Monica Zhang. Our theme song is by Ian Coss. Don’t miss an episode. Subscribe today in the Ximalaya app. Thanks for listening.

扎卡里·戴维斯：本节目由喜马拉雅独家制作播出。感谢您的收听，我们下期再见！