【英文原声版09】Philip Deloria：Black Elk Speaks

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What did Black Elk see in his vision?

黑麋鹿在幻象中看到了什么？

Zachary Davis: Sometime in the 1860s, by the Little Powder River, in what is today the state of Wyoming or Montana, Black Elk was born. He was a member of the Oglala Lakota Native American tribe, and he would go on to become one of the best-known figures in Native American history, a celebrated holy man, and the co-author of the 1932 book Black Elk Speaks.

扎卡里·戴维斯：19世纪60年代的一天，黑麋鹿出生于美国小粉河畔，也就是如今怀俄明州或蒙大拿州的一片区域。他是美国原住民，属于奥格拉拉-拉科塔部族。后来，他成为了美国原住民历史上最著名的人物之一，成为了闻名遐迩的先知，还成为了1932年出版的《黑麋鹿如是说》的作者之一。

Zachary Davis: But long before any of that, when he was still a child, Black Elk had a powerful vision.

扎卡里·戴维斯：不过在他成名前，早在孩提时期，黑麋鹿就有可以看见幻象的超能力。

Philip Deloria: So when he's a young boy, he's playing outside of his lodge and he sees, as he says two men, slanting down from the clouds like arrows, traveling down to see him. And he saw these men a number of times sort of coming. And then at one point, the vision actually commenced. And as oftentimes happens in these visions, he sort of falls over as if dead and lays there for several days. And his family thinks that he's not going to survive. And they are calling medicine people to come and resuscitate him, to bring him back. While he is off in the world of the vision. 

菲利普·德洛里亚：童年时，他在屋外玩耍，突然看到两个男人像箭一样从云端蹿下来，走到他面前。他看到这俩人来了好几次。那时他开始看见幻象了。幻象出现的时候，他常常会摔倒在地，像死去了一样，一躺就是好几天。那次也不例外。家人都以为他活不了了，叫巫医来救治他。但其实他只是去了幻象的世界而已。

Philip Deloria: My name is Philip Deloria. I'm a professor in the history department and the chair of the Committee on Degrees in History and Literature. And I teach courses in Native American history and Native American studies.

菲利普·德洛里亚：我是菲利普·德洛里亚，是历史系教授和历史与文学学位委员会主席，我教授美国原住民历史与研究方面的课程。

 

Zachary Davis: Professor Philip Deloria teaches Black Elk Speaks in his classes at Harvard, but his relationship with the work goes back much farther.

扎卡里·戴维斯：菲利普·德洛里亚教授在哈佛大学的课上教《黑麋鹿如是说》这本书，不过他与这本书的渊源远远不止于此。

Philip Deloria: This book is a family book in a way.

菲利普·德洛里亚：某种程度上讲，这本书是一本家庭读物。

Zachary Davis: Black Elk Speaks was published in 1932 but remained in relative obscurity until the late 1960s.

扎卡里·戴维斯：《黑麋鹿如是说》出版于1932年，但在上世纪60年代末以前，它都不怎么为人所知。

Philip Deloria: In 1972, my father wrote a new introduction to this book, which is sort of famous among the people who study this book. He said, “This is a Bible of all Native tribes.”

菲利普·德洛里亚：1972年，我父亲为这本书写了一篇新的序，这篇序在这本书的研究圈子里面小有名气。我父亲当时写道：“此书堪称所有原住民部落的圣经。”

Zachary Davis: Professor Deloria first read the book as an adolescent, and he was struck by the language and the imagery.

扎卡里·戴维斯：德洛里亚教授在少年时期就读过这本书，书中的语言和意象深深地触动了他。

Philip Deloria: So the book was dictated by Black Elk, who was an Oglala Holy Man to John Neihardt, who was a lyric poet—the poet laureate of Nebraska, actually. And so some of the language is Neihardt's language translation of language of Black Elk, and sometimes it can be, you know, a little overly literary, you know, perhaps. But there's a kind of directness to it and a kind of a simplicity to it and a power in the story that really caught me as a young person.

菲利普·德洛里亚：这本书由奥格拉拉部落先知黑麋鹿口述。记述者是抒情诗人约翰·内哈特，他曾被誉为“内布拉斯加州的桂冠诗人”。书中有些语言是内哈特对黑麋鹿话语的翻译润色，有时候可能会略微过于诗意。不过那些语言里有股坦率、直截了当的劲儿，那些故事里饱含力量，这些都深深吸引着年少时的我。

Zachary Davis: Here’s Professor Deloria reading a bit of the text:

扎卡里·戴维斯：下面有请德洛里亚教授给我们朗读书里的选段：

Philip Deloria: My friend. I'm going to tell you the story of my life as you wish. And if it were only the story of my life, I think I would not tell it. For what is one man that he should make much of his winters, even when they bend him like a heavy snow? So many other men have lived and shall live that story to be grass upon the hills. It is the story of all life that is holy and is good to tell and have us two-leggeds sharing it with the four-leggeds and the wings of the air and all green things. For these are children of one mother, and their father is one spirit. 

菲利普·德洛里亚：“朋友，如你所愿，我将为你讲述我这一生的故事。当然如果其中只有我的故事，大概我是不会讲了。因为一个人的冬来冬往又算得了什么呢？即便是被大雪压弯了腰，那也不算什么。那样的故事，许多人都曾经历过，也有许多人将会经历，那样的人，多如漫山遍野的小草。我要说的是关于众生的故事，是神圣美好而值得传颂的故事，是我们这些双脚行路的人类应当与四足奔走的动物、与展翅翱翔的鸟类、与所有青草树木分享的故事。因为我们都是同一位母亲的孩子，而我们的父亲便是宇宙唯一的圣灵。”

Zachary Davis: He found the book again when he was in college, in a Native American religions class.

扎卡里·戴维斯：上大学时，在一节介绍美国原住民宗教的课上，德洛里亚教授再次邂逅了这本书。

Philip Deloria: And I focused in a lot more on the question of who wrote the book. Did John Neihardt really sort of take over Black Elk and kind of craft his own book? There's passages in here which Black Elk never said, but Neihardt said. And so this was a kind of intellectual problem or puzzle that I found kind of interesting.

菲利普·德洛里亚：我当时非常关心到底是谁写了这本书。约翰·内哈特真的可以原封不动地传达黑麋鹿的意思吗？还是说他其实精心雕琢了一本自己的书，有些内容黑麋鹿从来没说过，内哈特却自己加进去了。我觉得当时困扰我的这个谜团还蛮有意思的。

Philip Deloria: Then I read it as a teacher. I've taught it several times and found myself engaged with other kinds of questions about its spiritual meaning and its significance for Native people and for non-Native people. And then I found myself coming full circle and writing a new introduction for the latest edition a couple years ago. So it's a book that's sort of haunted me for a really long time and has gone through different sorts of manifestations, right, in my different readings.

菲利普·德洛里亚：再后来读的时候，我已经在教这本书了。我教过好几次，发现又有其他问题吸引了我，比如关于这本书的精神内涵以及它对原住民和非原住民的重要意义。我发现自己兜了一个大圈，于是前几年为这本书的最新版写了一篇新的序。所以，这本书在我心头萦绕了很久，每一次读这本书，，我都有不同的理解和阐释。

Philip Deloria: And what has been really interesting, I think, about the book, is the ways that its resurgence in the late 60s and 70s has really made it—this is the best-selling book of all books authored by a Native person and probably all books about Native people. So for some people, it may not be a sort of bestselling popular book, but in fact, it is a best-selling popular book. It is the single book that has determined the ways that many, many people think about, about Native folks.

菲利普·德洛里亚：这本书真正有意思的地方是，60年代末到70年代，它重新火了起来，成了原住民写的书里面最畅销的一本，甚至可能是所有关于原住民的书里面最畅销的一本。可能某些人觉得它算不上畅销，但它的确是一本最畅销的书，这点还真的毋庸置疑。仅仅这一本书，就改变了许多人对原住民的印象与认知。

Zachary Davis: Welcome to Writ Large, a podcast about how books change the world. I’m Zachary Davis. In each episode, I talk with one of the world’s leading scholars about one book that changed the course of history. For this episode, I sat down with Harvard professor Philip Deloria to talk about Black Elk Speaks.

扎卡里·戴维斯：欢迎收听：100本改变你和世界的书，在这里我们为大家讲述改变世界的书籍。我是扎卡里·戴维斯。每一集，我都会和一位世界顶尖学者探讨某一本书带给世界的影响。在本集，我和哈佛大学教授菲利普·德洛里亚一起讨论《黑麋鹿如是说》。

Zachary Davis: Black Elk Speaks tells stories from Black Elk’s life. One early chapter tells the story of the vision. Remember, when the vision starts, Black Elk sees two men slanting down from the clouds like arrows.

扎卡里·戴维斯：《黑麋鹿如是说》讲述了黑麋鹿的人生故事。开头有一章讲了幻象的故事。记住哦，黑麋鹿最初看见幻象的时候，看到了两个人像箭一样从云端蹿下来。

Philip Deloria: So he's carried by the two men, the slanting arrow man up into the clouds where he sees the six grandfathers, and he himself is the sixth grandfather, the representations of the four directions, the earth and the sky, these sort of power beings. And each one gives him certain kinds of gifts or ways of thinking about power. There's a sacred herb, there's a bow, there's a dish of water. There's all these possibilities. So he's given these different powers, and then still in his vision, he's led to enact some of these kinds of powers as well. 

菲利普·德洛里亚：这俩人带着他像箭一样蹿到了云层上，在那里黑麋鹿见到了六位先祖，而第六位先祖正是他自己。先祖们代表着天地与四方，掌握着种种神力。每位先祖都赐予了他神力，或是启发他如何利用这些力量：其中有神力草药，有一把弓，有一杯水，如此种种。被赐予了这些神力之后，他还被带去施展了一些法力。

Philip Deloria: So there's a drought on the Missouri River and he will ride down at the head of this legion of horses and kill the drought, which is figured as a kind of a blue man. That's in the river. The imagery of this is fantastic and amazing. So he'll talk about ranks of horses at different colors. There'll be twelve bay horses over here, and twelve white horses over here, and twelve black horses over here, and twelve roan horses here. And they will line up in sort of ranks and files and he will be riding his own horse and it's ahead of them. And they're kind of cresting across the sky. 

菲利普·德洛里亚：密苏里河大旱，于是他骑马领着身后的马群，杀死了站在密苏里河里的蓝色的人，这个人在幻象中象征着干旱。这个意象太奇妙了。他还看到了好几排不同颜色的马，有十二匹栗色马、十二匹白马、十二匹黑马和十二匹红褐色马。这些马一排排地站着，他骑着自己的马走在马群前面。众马欢腾，天空似乎都沸腾了。

Philip Deloria: There are thunder beings for Lakota people. The power of the West and the Thunders is really, really important and dangerous. So he's harnessing the power of the thunder beings. He's calling on all these different powers for healing, for taking care of his people.

菲利普·德洛里亚：拉科塔人相信雷电的神力，认为西方雷神至关重要，又危险至极。所以他驾驭起了雷电之力。他施展这几股神力来治愈、保护族人。

Philip Deloria: And then eventually he comes back out of the vision and comes back to life, and he's weak, and he's changed. He's never the same person again. His friends and his peers say, well, you know, he's become a kind of a strange and quiet person now. He's not the same. A medicine person comes into the lodge and says, your son is sitting in a sacred manner like something has happened to him. He's changed. So he's, from a very early age, Black Elk is seen by his family to have this kind of specialness about him. 

菲利普·德洛里亚：最终他离开了幻象世界，回到现实世界中。他很虚弱，而且跟以前完全不同，像是变了个人。他的朋友和同伴都说，他现在变得陌生又安静，再也不是从前那样了。一个巫医走进屋内，对黑麋鹿的父亲说，他儿子坐在那儿，仪态很神圣，像是经历了什么，整个人焕然一新。所以在黑麋鹿年幼时，家人就觉得他非比寻常。

Philip Deloria: And the question is, then, at what point does he exercise his powers, and how does he exercise his powers? And this is, of course, at the very moment when sort of American military domination is coming to the northern Great Plains. And so the question is, does he have this kind of life destroying power through these sacred herbs and these kinds of things? And if he does, you know what will happen. 

菲利普·德洛里亚：问题是，他会在什么时候运用这些神力？他又会如何运用它们？答案自然是当美国白人军队开始占领北美大平原北部的时候。问题又来了，黑麋鹿可以凭着神力草药等毁灭性的法术来抵御敌人吗？如果他可以，你知道会发生什么。

Philip Deloria: And in the end, as he says, you know, the vision of a man with a power too weak to use it, he does not use this thing called the soldier herb, that’s the name that he gives to it. He does not use that power. And so he watches the tree, the sacred tree of the Lakota people, sort of shrivel, you know, and in Neihart’s words, shrivel and die.

菲利普·德洛里亚：最后正如他所说，他的神力太弱，没法施展。他没有用他称之为“神兵草药”的超能力，没有施展法力，只能看着拉科塔人的圣树枯萎。用内哈特的话来说，圣树“枯萎凋零”。

Philip Deloria: Whenever you read in this book about, you know, a beautiful dream died in the bloody snow of Wounded Knee, that will be John Neihart talking and not Black Elk talking. Right. So Neihardt puts a kind of vanishing Indian sort of gloss on this that I don't think Black Elk himself actually believed.

菲利普·德洛里亚：每当书中写到一个美梦陨落在伤膝河畔血迹斑斑的雪地里，那便是约翰·内哈特的后期加工，而不是出自黑麋鹿之口。在内哈特的叙述里，我们可以看到印第安昔日辉煌逝去的痕迹，但我觉得这点黑麋鹿本人一定难以苟同。

What’s the story the book doesn’t tell?

书中略去了哪些故事？

Philip Deloria: So it's a bit the story of that vision and how his life lived was lived in relation to it. But he also, you know, he traveled with Buffalo Bills’ Wild West Show to Europe. He was abandoned there for a year. And, you know, lived in Europe for a year. When Buffalo Bill came back the following year for a tour, he found Black Elk again, put him on a ship and sent him back to Pine Ridge Reservation. He was present at the Wounded Knee massacre. So he was there at the sort of climatic kind of last bit of violence on the Great Plains.

菲利普·德洛里亚：这本书讲述的是黑麋鹿看到的幻象以及他与此相关的人生经历。不过除此之外，他还参加了水牛比尔的“狂野西部秀”表演团，随团去欧洲演出，而且被丢在那儿呆了一年。第二年，水牛比尔再次去欧洲演出，找到了黑麋鹿，送他坐船回到松脊岭印第安保留区。之后他亲身经历了伤膝河大屠杀，这是美国大平原上最后一起针对印第安人的暴行。

Philip Deloria: And then untold in the story, he became a Catholic catechist. And so he worked for the Catholic Church. This person who had this incredibly powerful traditional medicine dream of this vision became a really highly respected church worker. Many people have found that contradictory and it's interesting that John Neihardt chose to leave that bit out of this story.

菲利普·德洛里亚：后来的故事书中就没有叙述了。黑麋鹿后来成了天主教神父，在天主教教会工作。这位拥有强大幻视愈疗能力的人成了一名饱受爱戴的神职人员。很多人觉得这有些矛盾，而且有意思的是，约翰·内哈特在书里也有意略去了这段事实。

Philip Deloria: But Neihardt came to South Dakota in the late 1920s, early 1930s, looking for material for this epic ballad that he was writing. Thousands and thousands of lines of verse that basically account for a kind of narrative of the American West in the early-to-mid, early-to-end of 19th century, really from the fur trade up through the Wounded Knee massacre. And he met Black Elk at that time. And Black Elk said, hmm, this is the person to whom I want to tell my story. And when I tell the story of this vision, I will be giving away the power of that vision, but I'm an old man, and it's time for me to do that now. 

菲利普·德洛里亚：上世纪20年代末到30年代初，内哈特来到南达科他州，为正在写的史诗搜集素材。他想用成千上万行诗讲述美国西部在整个19世纪的历史，从早期的毛皮交易到晚期的伤膝河大屠杀。那时候他刚好遇到了黑麋鹿。碰巧黑麋鹿觉得：“嗯，我愿意和他讲讲我的经历。如果我讲述自己和幻象的故事，就要放弃自己幻视的能力，不过我年纪也大了，是时候了。”

Philip Deloria: So Neihardt came back the following year with his daughters, and there was a complicated process of translation where Black Elk would speak in Lakota to his son, Ben Black Elk, who would then translate to English. One of his daughters would write it down in stenographic notation. They would come back and then translate, re-sort of translate the standard graphic notation into transcripts, at which point then Neihardt reworked the transcripts to create the text that was Black Elk Speaks.

菲利普·德洛里亚：于是第二年，内哈特带女儿一起回到这里。口述记录时，翻译的流程非常复杂。黑麋鹿先是用拉科塔语把故事讲给自己的儿子本·黑麋鹿，再由本把它翻译成英语，然后内哈特的女儿把它速记下来。回去之后，他们会把速记笔记整理成文稿，再由内哈特重新编撰润色，最终写成了《黑麋鹿如是说》这本书。

Philip Deloria: So it's a really interesting kind of piece of writing in the sense that it's co-authored. Neihardt and Black Elk felt like they had a kind of spiritual, by all accounts, they really, truly felt like they had a kind of spiritual affinity for one another. Black Elk recognized Neihardt as the person. Neihardt always felt he had this kind of kinship with Black Elk, that they had a kind of telepathic, almost, kind of relationship to one another. And then Neihardt published the book, and it almost immediately became obscure and no one really paid very much attention to it. 

菲利普·德洛里亚：这样看，这本书还挺有意思，因为它是由内哈特和黑麋鹿共同创作的。俩人觉得他们之间有种默契，他们在各方面都心有灵犀。黑麋鹿觉得内哈特就是他想要倾诉的人，而内哈特觉得他们之间有种心灵感应，在精神上互相亲近。后来，内哈特出版了这本书，可惜反响寥寥，几乎没有人关注。

Zachary Davis: What does it mean in the Lakota culture to be a holy man? And especially interesting is this sounds like a complicated expectation that he might, Jesus like, deliver them from domination and to be a warrior, but then ends up not applying that power. And that power dynamic is fascinating.

扎卡里·戴维斯：在拉科塔文化中，成为先知意味着什么呢？特别有意思的一点是，族人似乎寄予了黑麋鹿巨大的期待，期望他能像耶稣一样带领族人从白人统治中获得解放，期待他成为一名战士。但最后他没能施展那些神力。神力的这种变化令人着迷。

Philip Deloria: Yeah, it's a super complicated thing to be a holy man, and not many people seek it or want it. You might go on a vision to have certain kinds of power as a warrior, for example. But the kind of power that Black Elk had, you know, is a power that just requires nothing but obligation for your entire life. So there's many accounts of Lakota people sort of seeing visions of thunder and kind of not wanting it. You know? To have a vision of thunder was to become oftentimes as you come what they call a Heyoka, a kind of a sacred clown who did everything backwards, showed people how to live by showing them how not to live. So that's an obligation that you would bear for your whole life. 

菲利普·德洛里亚：没错，成为先知很难，没有多少人想成为先知。比如说，你可能会在幻象中看到自己成为了战士，拥有了某些神力。但一旦拥有了黑麋鹿的这种神力，就需要倾尽一生去恪守职责。所以很多有关拉科塔人的记载中都提到，他们看到了雷电的幻象，但他们很不情愿，因为这意味着你成了名叫“赫尤卡”的先知，需要预告族人不应该怎样，来引导他们正确地生活。这会是你一生的职责。

Philip Deloria: There's other kinds of holy Yuwipi men who could find lost objects, curers and healers, right, bear medicine men who had the power to heal, to cure. For all those folks, what comes with a sacred vision like that is an obligation to take care of other people, oftentimes at the expense of your own self and your own life. So it's not about status. It's about caretaking, you know, other people, and obligation, and responsibility, and taking on a really important kind of social, social role. 

菲利普·德洛里亚：还有一类先知被称为“尤维皮”，他们可以找到丢失的东西，还可以担任看病疗伤的巫医。对这些先知来说，看到幻象就意味着要肩负起照顾族人的职责，甚至常常需要牺牲自己的生命。这无关地位，只关乎关怀他人、职责、责任以及承担重要的社会角色。

Philip Deloria: So for Black Elk, what ends up happening for him and for many other people is when you have this vision, it's existing in the realm of the spirit. But you need to take it and make it material in the realm of the earth and of the people. So, for example, one of the things that he does is he has this horse dance where he says, “In the vision there are all these horses, you know, milling around.” 

菲利普·德洛里亚：对黑麋鹿以及其他先知来说，一旦他们看到这些幻象，它就会植根于他们脑海中。而他们必须接受这些幻象，用它来改造周遭世界，造福族人。比如，黑麋鹿仿照幻象组织了一场马匹之舞，正如他所说，“幻象中到处都是马，它们到处走动”。

Philip Deloria: And the horses were a sort of location of power for him. So he needs to take those horses and actually dance that part of the vision with all the people. And that takes his own individual vision and makes it collective. Right? It takes the power of that and brings it to the people. And so the twelve ranks of white horses and black horses. Those things are replicated on earth as he does the horse dance, for example, which is a wonderful, beautiful chapter in the book.

菲利普·德洛里亚：这些马其实象征着他的一部分神力，所以他需要领着马群，和所有人一起跳着幻象里的马匹之舞。这样他把个人的幻象展现在大家眼前，也将神力传递给众人。所以他找了十二匹白马和十二匹黑马，把幻象中的场面复制到现实中。描写马匹之舞的这章真的太美妙了。

Zachary Davis: What does this book reveal about broader Native American culture? It's kind of a big question. What does it tell us about a whole people?

扎卡里·戴维斯：这本书展现了整个美国原住民的哪些文化呢？这个问题挺大的。书里面讲了哪些和整个群体有关的事情呢？

Philip Deloria: It's actually not a crazy question.

菲利普·德洛里亚：这问题其实一点都不夸张。

Zachary Davis: OK. Ok, so.

扎卡里·戴维斯：好的，好的。

Philip Deloria: You know, because in a lot of ways, this is a very specific kind of traditional Lakota tradition, a northern Great Plains tradition. It can't be extrapolated out beyond that. Right? It is what it is. It occupies its own kind of time and space. At the same time. You know, the fact that it became this kind of intertribal best-seller that it was, you know, a Bible of all tribes, this sort of sense, it did represent this sort of moment from the late 60s on when certain things which came out of northern Great Plains culture actually spread to other kinds of places. 

菲利普·德洛里亚：要知道，从很多方面来说，这是拉科塔部落的特殊传统，是大平原北部的一种传统，并没有推广到其他地方。它是在特定时间、特定地点出现的一种传统。不过《黑麋鹿如是说》确实在各个部落都很火，还被誉为“所有部落的圣经”。这说明从60年代末开始，大平原北部的一些文化传播到了其他地方。

Philip Deloria: For example, Native people in California oftentimes have sort of rites at passage, kind of rituals of manhood and womanhood that might take a month to exercise. Whereas the vision quest in this case might take four or five days. Well, all the sudden, maybe that Black Elk thing looks kind of appealing to people in California. And all the sudden you see kind of blurring and blending and transformations of other indigenous traditions in relation to this book, you know. So this becomes interesting. 

菲利普·德洛里亚：例如，加利福尼亚州的原住民经常会有一些成年礼，人们可能得花长达一个月，来完成这些仪式。而寻找、演示幻象可能只需要四五天。或许突然之间，加州原住民对黑麋鹿的这种仪式感兴趣了。所以突然之间你会看到书里的这些本族传统开始瓦解、融合、改变。这点还挺有意思的。

Philip Deloria: The fact that sweat lodges have sort of been present in many, many Native traditions, but sort of have spread in the traditional form that you find in this book across many places. Native America, I think is interesting, you know, and telling. So it's, for me, it's evidence of the fact that the Native people are, you know, not stuck in time or not static people who never change are not bound by, you know, traditions which are, you know, sort of unchanging, but are, in fact, people like all other people who adapt, and change, and swap across cultures, even as they maintain certain kinds of core autochthonous kinds of things that are Native. 

菲利普·德洛里亚：很多原住民传统中都有汗屋，但是在很多地方，汗屋的建筑形式都是以书里的这种形式存在的的。原住民在这点上很有意思。我觉得这可以证明，他们并不是一直呆在某个地方，并非被限制在某地不动。要知道，文化传统基本上是延续不变的，但是原住民和其他所有人一样，在保护本部落文化内核的同时，也会适应、改造、学习其他部落的文化。

Philip Deloria: So as this kind of inter-tribal text, I think it does in some ways kind of speak to the broader world of Native America. And the things that you would extract out of that are sort of a philosophy about how humans live in relation to the world, how humans live in relation to one another, these kinds of things which, you know, a lot of Native people will say, you know, can have a certain quality of generalization. Right?

菲利普·德洛里亚：既然这本书在部落间流传开，那我觉得它在某些方面确实代表了更多的美国原住民。你在书中收获的，是人类与世界、与彼此的相处之道。这点估计很多原住民都会深感认同，觉得概括得很好。

How did the book become popular?

这本书是怎么火起来的？

Zachary Davis: Let's, let's now talk about the story of its emergence from obscurity. It wasn't very widely read at the time, like most works of poetry and Nebraskan poets, I imagine. But how did it get rediscovered and take on this larger life and start to have wider influence, maybe both among other tribes as well as contemporary European-American life?

扎卡里·戴维斯：我们来聊聊这本书是怎么重新火起来的吧。初次出版的时候它还默默无闻，我猜大部分诗歌和内布拉斯加州的诗人也是如此。那它是如何被人重新发现，又是如何在各个部落乃至整个当代欧美社会，展现出更深远的意义和更广泛的影响呢？

Philip Deloria: You know, I think a lot of its resurgence had to do with kind of the ways in which the counterculture moments of the 1960s really went looking for Native texts and looking for different kinds of accounts. A lot of counter-culturalists is felt like Indian people and Indian histories and traditions had something to teach them. And so the book re-emerges kind of in that context.

菲利普·德洛里亚：我觉得这本书的风靡和60年代的反文化运动有关，那时候人们纷纷把目光投向美国原住民等多民族文化，寻找和它们有关的内容。许多反文化主义者发现印第安人身上、印第安历史文化传统中都有很多值得学习的地方。在这样的背景下，《黑麋鹿如是说》风靡一时。

Philip Deloria: And then, you know, it gets republished in 1972. And it's funny when you go to look at the cover of the 1972 version. It's completely couched in this 1960s language. You know, it's like more mind-blowing than a psychedelic acid trip. You know, it's that's the kind of language, you know. And in some ways, there's a market kind of influence that happens here that's aiming at young countercultural people who are looking for alternative sort of inspirations.

菲利普·德洛里亚：1972，这本书再次出版。有意思的是，当你看到1972年版的封面时，会发现上面的文字有股60年代的味道，写着“远远胜过迷幻药的感觉”。不过从某方面看，这本书面向这些寻觅新灵感的年轻反叛者，也确实有几分市场影响力。

Zachary Davis: I mean, I've seen pictures of Native American dress on white attendees at Woodstock.

扎卡里·戴维斯：没错，我看到过一些伍德斯托克音乐节的照片，有人穿上了美国原住民的服装。

Philip Deloria: Right. You know, there's a whole thing called the Grateful Dead Indians. There was there's a lot of indigenous imagery and appropriation that went on, you know, in the 1960s in terms of the counterculture. And this is kind of one of these texts that gets caught up, you know, in that.

菲利普·德洛里亚：确实，那时候流行着一种叫“Grateful Dead Indians”的文化。60年代的反文化运动借用了很多印第安文化意象，《黑麋鹿如是说》就是其中之一。

Philip Deloria: It's also the case that John Neihardt himself, sort of, he never went away from the public eye. You know, he's a very popular teacher at the University of Missouri. He taught his course called Epic America, which was kind of a great, you know, sort of poetic survey of the U.S.. But he goes on The Dick Cavett Show. I believe it's that early 70s. And people across the country watch him as he talks about Black Elk Speaks, and he talks in poetic terms, and he's quite a character. Right. 

菲利普·德洛里亚：约翰·内哈特本人也一直受人瞩目。他在密苏里大学执教，非常受欢迎。他教过一门《史诗美国》课，课上探讨了美国的诗歌。70年代初，他还上了《迪克·卡维特秀》，全美国的人都在听他用诗意的语言谈论《黑麋鹿如是说》，他确实很有个性。

Philip Deloria: And so there's a kind of counterculture dimension to it. There's a kind of mass media dimension. And then there's a kind of publishing and republishing, kind of dimension, you know, a market dimension, you know, as well. And by the time all is said and done, by the time you hit the early-to-mid 70s. This book is everywhere, really.

菲利普·德洛里亚：所以说，这本书的风靡归功于反文化运动、大众传媒、二次出版以及市场营销。经历了这些之后，到70年代早期和中期，这本书几乎无处不在。

Philip Deloria: It's also the case that there's a resurgence of Native writing. I mean, it's been interesting to me—1969, 50 years ago, my dad's first book, Custer Died for Your Sins, came out and was sort of the first Native American political bestseller of that period. Same time, Scott Momaday's book, House Made of Dawn won the Pulitzer Prize for literature. And so you have got two different models of Native American writing, kind of the political polemic and the modernist, you know, sort of Native literary voice, both of which would be channeled throughout the, you know, the 70s, into the 80s and 90s. 

菲利普·德洛里亚：美国原住民写作也复兴起来。我觉得有个事情很有意思：五十年前，1969年的时候，我父亲的第一本书《卡斯特为你的罪孽而死》问世，成为了当时第一本有关美国原住民的政治类畅销书。与此同时，斯科特·莫马迪的小说《黎明之屋》获得了普利策文学奖。这样一来，出现了两种不同的类型的原住民题材的书，一种是政治论述，一种是现代主义的文学叙事，两种都影响着整个70年代，乃至80、90年代。

Philip Deloria: And then you have Black Elk, you know. So it sits as part of this moment of emergence of new Native literary voices. And to that, I would add one non-Native literary voice, which was Dee Brown's book Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee, which was sort of a big bestseller in the early 1970s. So there's this moment where there's an explosion in a way of Native writing and Black Elk Speaks gets caught up and is part of that, you know, as well.

菲利普·德洛里亚：再后来《黑麋鹿如是说》火了，正好赶上了新一代印第安文学的出现。这里我还有必要提一下迪·布朗的小说《魂归伤膝谷》，它并不是典型的原住民文学，但在70年代初也非常畅销。当时涌现出一大批有关美国原住民的作品，《黑麋鹿如是说》赶上了这股风潮，也一同获得了关注。

Zachary Davis: What do we know about its reception history among Native peoples?

扎卡里·戴维斯：这本书在原住民中是如何接纳传播的呢？

Philip Deloria: And, you know, I think it languished not only among white readers, but Native readers for a pretty significant period of time after the 1930s. Some part of the Native sort of re-adoption of this book has to do with sort of watching white counter-culturalists, you know, kind of adopted. But, you know, another part has to do with certain kinds of tribal continuity. So, first of all, Neihardt writes a whole another book called When the Tree Flowers, which is based on his interviews with Black Elk. 

菲利普·德洛里亚：要知道，30年代之后的很长一段时间里，这本书不但没什么白人读者，也没什么原住民读者。原住民开始重新关注这本书，一方面是因为看到反文化运动中白人追捧这本书，另一方面也与部落文化的传承延续有关。内哈特后来基于对黑麋鹿的采访，写了另一本书——《当树花盛开》。

Philip Deloria: A young anthropologist named Joseph Epps Brown is inspired by Black Elk Speaks, goes out, and he also meets with Black Elk and publishes a little book called The Sacred Pipe, where Black Elk is sort of laying out the seven ceremonies of Lakota people. So there is a little, there is certain kinds of continuities there. And there are ways in which anthropology becomes part of a kind of living tradition around this particular kind of book. 

菲利普·德洛里亚：一位年轻的人类学家约瑟夫·埃普斯·布朗受《黑麋鹿如是说》的启发，也跑去和黑麋鹿见了面，还出版了一本小书《神圣的烟斗》，讲述了黑麋鹿展示的拉科塔人的七个仪式。这里面有一种传承延续。于是在很多方面，人们开始围绕着这些书做人类学研究，研究原住民的生活传统。

Philip Deloria: I would also say it's really important to sort of recognize the ways that the U.S. government had spent a great deal of time from the mid-19th century on trying to stamp out the practice of Native religion. By the time you're in the late-19th century, you've got the civilization regulations, which basically prohibit the free exercise and expression of Native religions. So the Sundance, which Black Elk, you know, also sort of talks about, was prohibited for Lakota people. Of course, they kept doing it in these sort of, you know, backwoods kind of places. But the ability to sort of return to traditional religions really takes off in the 60s as well. And so I think that's a really important context for thinking about this.

菲利普·德洛里亚：我们还需要看到，美国政府从19世纪中叶起就花了很大精力，想要制止原住民举办宗教仪式。19世纪末，政府出台了相关法令，禁止原住民自行举办宗教仪式，或发表相关宗教思想。黑麋鹿所说的拉科塔人跳的太阳之舞也被禁止了。当然，原住民还是会偷偷地在偏僻的地方举行这些仪式。我们要看到60年代他们慢慢回归传统宗教，这个背景非常重要，不能忽视。

Philip Deloria: One of the reasons he's interesting and important is that he's a Catholic catechist, or that I would point to my own family, my grandfather and great grandfather, both being Native clergy, Episcopal ministers, is that these folks use the church as a kind of a hiding place, refuge place for different kinds of traditional Lakota religious practices. So if you went to the Episcopal Church convocation and say 1920, you know, what you'd find is kind of an arbor, you know, that looks a lot like the traditional Sundance arbor. 

菲利普·德洛里亚：黑麋鹿之所以有意思而且很重要，一个原因是他是天主教神父。需要说明一下，我自己的祖父和曾祖父都是圣公会的神职人员。这些原住民把教堂当作庇护所，在那儿举行各种拉科塔宗教仪式。1920年的时候，假如你去圣公会教堂，会看到一种小亭子，长得很像举行传统太阳之舞的亭子。

Philip Deloria: And you'd find men's societies meeting over on the side. You know, the Society of St. Andrew, which looked a lot like the old men's warrior societies, you'd find the women's quilting group over here, which looked like the old women's traditional societies. And you'd find that kind of coming together and meeting and gathering, feasting, praying. You know, these church gatherings looked a lot like traditional Sundance except without some of the ceremonial stuff that went with, you know, the Sundance. So the church was the sort of place for a number of years where Native people found refuge. But by the time you hit the 60s, you had really, I think, you know, resisted Native people saying, enough of this. 

菲利普·德洛里亚：你会看到边上有男人聚在一起，像是圣安德鲁宗教团体，又像是老年战士团体。你还会看到一群女人聚在一起做针线活，像是些传统的老年女性团体。你会看到原住民聚在一起摆宴席、祷告。这种教堂聚会很像传统的太阳之舞，只不过没有那些舞蹈仪式。所以说教堂在那几年都是原住民的庇护之地。不过到了60年代，政府已经不准原住民做这些了。

Philip Deloria: We actually want to reconstitute the original ceremonies. I talked at one point to a kind of Albert White Hat who was part of the sort of return of some of these ceremonies. And he said, well, we went back to old ethnographies to try to find old Sundance songs. And we had maybe two or three of them. And we tried to reconstitute the Sundance and we sang these two sort two or three songs over and over and over again. Well, the old people who were Christians in the church kind of sat there watching us. 

菲利普·德洛里亚：人们其实想要重建这些传统仪式。我曾提到过艾伯特·怀特·哈特，他参与了这些仪式的重建。他说，他们重新翻阅过往的民族志，寻找从前太阳之舞的歌谣，最终找到了两三首。他们试图重建太阳之舞的仪式，反反复复唱着这几首歌谣。那些基督教老人坐在教堂里看着他们。

Philip Deloria: And after a couple of days, they sort of came up to us, and all of a sudden we had 15 Sundance songs because these people had known those Sundance songs and it kind of preserved them and kept them. So if you think about that resurgence of Native religion and religious practice that happens and then a book like this, which is so powerful coming in the middle of that, you can see how everybody wanted to read that and sort of think about it. You know, in relation to new, you know, resurgent cultural religious practices.

菲利普·德洛里亚：几天之后，老人们过来了，一下子给了他们十五首太阳之舞的歌。这几位老人知道那几首歌，把它们保存了下来。如果你想想原住民宗教和他们宗教仪式的复兴，然后又看到黑麋鹿这样一本富有力量的书，你会发现每个人都想去阅读、思考它，因为它跟当时复兴的宗教仪式息息相关。

What kinds of audiences does the book have?

这本书有哪些读者？

Zachary Davis: Ok. So this to me sounds like the core of its impact is that both among Native Americans and among countercultural whites who were interested in rejecting, maybe, their Christian heritage or looking for a more sustainable non-imperial forms of spirituality, this book was a guide to both of those. Is that fair to say?

扎卡里·戴维斯：好的。我感觉这本书主要影响的是两类人：一类是美国原住民；一类是那些参与反文化运动的白人，他们拒绝基督教传统，想要找到更可持续的非帝国精神。这本书对这两类人都有启迪作用。这么说合理吗？

Philip Deloria: Yeah, I think that is fair to say and I would say even a wider audience than that. You know, this was a book that was picked up by, book groups and reading groups, and so, you know, I don't want to make it sound like the only white audience for this was sort of like counter-cultural hippies, cause it wasn't. You know, it was a much more widely read book, especially in that period, you know, late 60s through the 70s. And then, of course, it went through a number of other editions. 

菲利普·德洛里亚：我觉得这么说没问题，我甚至觉得这本书的受众不止这两类。这本书其实是一众作者和读者共同相中的。我不会说读者里面只有白人，只有那些反文化的嬉皮士，因为事实并非如此。《黑麋鹿如是说》的读者群体很广泛，特别是在60年代末和70年代。后来这本书又出了好几个版本。

Philip Deloria: An anthropologist named Ray Damali published a book called The Six Grandfather, which was the original transcripts of John Neihardt. So it entered into the scholarly domain. That was one of the first moments where we could see what Neihardt had added ways he would had, you know, transformed some of Black Elk's words. But we could also see some of the ways that Neihardt had really captured Black Elk’s original sentiments and translated them in a way that I think both of these men would have really recognized and appreciated and honored. 

菲利普·德洛里亚：人类学家雷·达玛利还整理汇编了约翰·内哈特的原始手稿，出版成了《六祖父》一书。可以说《黑麋鹿如是说》已经上升到学术领域了。这也是第一次我们发现内哈特修改、增补了黑麋鹿的话。不过我们也能看到很多方面内哈特确实捕捉到了黑麋鹿的情绪，巧妙地传递了出来，我觉得他俩对此应该都很欣赏认同，并引以为豪。

Philip Deloria: So there was a new kind of audience, I would say, around people who were interested in literature and literary production, not totally an academic audience, but one that was sort of tilting in that direction, you know, as well. So it's a book that has had multiple kind of possibilities for transforming people, you know, in different ways. Native people, non-Native people, across the board.

菲利普·德洛里亚：我觉得这本书还有一类读者，那就是热爱文学与文学创作的人，他们不一定是学术派，但对这方面多少有些兴趣。所以说这本书能够以不同的方式塑造人们，无论他们是不是原住民。

Zachary Davis: I saw that Carl Jung was interested in this book. Why do you think he was drawn to this? What impact did that have?

扎卡里·戴维斯：我看到卡尔·荣格对这本书很感兴趣。您觉得他为什么会被吸引呢？这对他有什么影响？

Philip Deloria: Mhm. So Jung, you know, who is a sort of Freudian sort of, you know, protegé who broke with Freud and who then kind of theorized collective conscious or collective unconscious kinds of things, archetypes that might float around. He sort of started edging into structuralism in a certain kind of way, right, that like there are certain things that might be shared among all human beings. He was part of that kind of move, a sort of comparative ethnology or enography, sort of just grabbing at random from world traditions and saying, look out that lines up with this. You see that? Do you get it? At the same time, you know, he was also mystical himself. Right? I mean, for anyone who's looked at Carl Jung's Red Book, for example, his kind of dream ledger, who's read Memories, Dreams, Reflections, right, his own kind of autobiography. He was a mystical person. 

菲利普·德洛里亚：荣格可以说是弗洛伊德的得意门生。在与弗洛伊德决裂之后，他提出了集体意识、集体无意识等理论，指出了处处存在的人格原型。从某方面看，他的思想有点结构主义的意味，比如在某些事情上所有人类都有共通之处。荣格关于比较人种学和民族志的理论，像是在世界文化传统中随意抽取一些内容，把它们排列组合，然后告诉人们：你们要重视这一点。你们看到了吗？你们能理解吗？与此同时，他本人也很神秘。翻开他的《红书》，你会发现这本书像是记录了他的梦境与幻象；读一读他的自传《回忆·梦想·思考》，你也会感觉到同样的神秘色彩。

Philip Deloria: And so Jung has a kind of an experience, I believe in the 1930s where he goes to Taos Pueblo and he says, oh, my gosh, these people, these Native people, everything I've been trying to say is contained here in this place. And he has a similar kind of response to Black Elk Speaks. Right? That like, wow, this really captures, you know, everything. So it's a mystery, right? What was it that Jung was talking about in terms of Black Elk, right? Because Jung has a universalist kind of thing. Well, Black Elk sort of does, too. 

菲利普·德洛里亚：荣格30年代的时候去了新墨西哥州的陶斯镇普韦布洛印第安社区，我相信他在那儿一定很惊喜，肯定会想：“天呐，这些原住民太了不起了，我想说的所有东西这儿都有。”读完《黑麋鹿如是说》之后，他也有类似的感受，觉得这本书似乎囊括了所有东西。挺神奇的，对吧。荣格在谈到这本书的时候竟然会这么想。因为荣格有点相信普遍主义，这点跟黑麋鹿很像。

Philip Deloria: I mean, Black Elk, There's a moment in the book where he says, I was taken to Harney Peak. He says Harney Peak is the center of the Lakota world. But then he says, you know, in his vision, he's taken to the center of the world and he looks out and he can see the sacred hoops of all these different people across the entire world, across the entire universe. Well, this is the kind of stuff that Jung really, really liked and appreciated. So I think there's a sense about the sort of spiritual power of it, of a certain kind of universalist holistic oneness that was really evocative for Jung. And of course, Jung had a whole series of readers of his own, right? 

菲利普·德洛里亚：在书中黑麋鹿提到，他曾被带去了哈尼峰，那儿是拉科塔部落的中心。后来他又说，他在幻象中被带到世界中心，他远眺，看到了神圣的民族之环，那是全世界、全宇宙的男女老少的民族之环。荣格很喜欢这段。我觉得这段场景描述了一种精神力量，一种普天之下万物和谐统一的状态，这点深深吸引着荣格。当然荣格自己也有一批读者，对吧。

Philip Deloria: And by the time Black Elk Speaks, Jung has sort of gone a little bit off the deep end, if you don't mind my saying so. Right? He writes his book on UFOs as a kind of cosmic manifestation. And, of course, you know, Jung’s sort of, you know, sympathies and quasi-sympathies with Nazi Germany are now part of the discussion in that period, you know, as well. So I wouldn't want to overstate sort of Jung's impact and the impact of his readership. But in fact, there's been a long continuous strand of Jungian thought that really took off in the 80s. I would say Black Elk Speaks acquired a new Jungian audience of new agers in the 80s and 90s that came directly from people who were doing personality tests and things like that, out of the Jungian tradition.

菲利普·德洛里亚：等到《黑麋鹿如是说》发表的时候，荣格没有再就这个问题深挖下去了，不知道你介不介意我这样说。他写了本有关UFO的书，阐明了自己的宇宙观。荣格对纳粹德国也略有同情，这点到现在都还有争议。我不想夸大荣格和他读者的影响，不过80年代荣格的思想确实流行了很长一段时间。《黑麋鹿如是说》在80、90年代吸引了一批喜欢荣格思想的人，他们往往本来就喜欢做人格测试，这似乎跟荣格的理念有些关系。

Zachary Davis: Well, and I can imagine partly what drew someone like Jung and maybe many of the countercultural readers is the sense that it was a lost civilization that was only now accessible through a kind of quite a sacred text. And I wonder what, what’s the experience of reading this book like maybe, as a white person, to encounter someone, sacred vision from a different kind of community. When you teach this to your students, what are some common responses?

扎卡里·戴维斯：嗯，不难想象为什么像荣格或是反主流文化的读者会喜欢这本书。这本书代表着一种失落的文明，如今只能通过这本带着神秘色彩书籍来了解它。我好奇的是，在读到另一个民族的人看到幻象时，白人读者都有什么感受呢？您给学生教这本书的时候，他们普遍有哪些反应呢？

Philip Deloria: I tell my students, you have to read that the great vision, the sacred vision chapter really slowly and you have to let your imagination really take hold. If you're zooming through it through and go, look, there's 12 horses here, and there's this and there's and that, and there’s this cloud people and stuff, like, you're not going to get it. But if you read it slowly and attentively with a full imagination, it is a kind of amazing world in which you really, I would say the average reader has had no access or exposure to, you know. 

菲利普·德洛里亚：我告诉学生，你们必须耐心地阅读“伟大幻象”这一章，边读边发挥自己的想象。如果你只是泛泛地过一遍，看到“有十二匹马，有这个有那个，有云，有人等等”，你就不会看懂。但如果你带着想象力，仔仔细细、全神贯注地读，你会发现这个幻象世界简直太精彩了，一般的读者根本没法体会到。

Philip Deloria: And it can be, I mean, not to sort of go back to 1972 version, it can be kind of mind-blowing, right, in a certain way. It puts you in a different kind of sensibility. You realize that cultures are really different and they're not just the same thing of people who sort of dress a little funny and are, you know? They're not like that.

菲利普·德洛里亚：我不是在给1972年版的书做宣传，不过读完之后确实比磕了药还爽。它给你一种全新的体验，你会发现各个文化竟然如此不同，绝不是仅仅是一群人人穿着奇形怪状的衣服，完全不是那回事儿。

Philip Deloria: I mean, I sometimes have my students read in tandem with these other sorts of accounts. There's this Doctor James Walker who records a whole series of things on the Pine Ridge Reservation. So there's snippets, you know, of his recordings which put you in that space, right? So imagine this, right? Oh, two men were out hunting and they killed a bison and they looked inside the stomach and there was an old woman there. Long pause. Beat. Stop. Wait, what?

菲利普·德洛里亚：有时候我还会让学生顺便读一读类似题材的其他文章，比如詹姆斯·沃克博士对松脊岭保留区里种种事情的记录，有些片段会让你觉得仿佛置身在那里。想象一下，两个男人出去打猎，杀了一头野牛。他们剖开野牛的胃，却发现了一位老妇人。他们愣了很久。故事没了。嗯？等等，刚刚发生了什么？

Philip Deloria: You know, and it's not just like, oh, what a cute little folktale that is. It's like, no, no, no. This was their world. They killed a bison and there was an old woman in the stomach. Like, it's a real thing. Wrap your head around that gentle reader, you know? And Black Elk Speaks can have some kind of elements of that as well. So there's an inaccessibility to it. Like I'll never get access to that vision. Right? This definitely cause white counter-culturalists to go out and try to have visions. 

菲利普·德洛里亚：要知道这可不仅仅是个意思的民间传说，这就是原住民的生活。他们杀了头野牛，牛胃里面有个老妇人，这可是确确实实发生的。《黑麋鹿如是说》里面也有这些神奇的片段。我们可能会觉得难以理解，比如说我们从来没见过幻象，对吧。这无疑让反主流文化的白人从他们的圈子走出来，并且试图去体验这些幻想。

Philip Deloria: There's no doubt about it. You know, like, oh, I read that thing. I want to go try this. You know, and they would go, you know, kind of try, not understanding that the vision is a collective thing. It's not an individual thing.

菲利普·德洛里亚：我读到了这些，我想亲自体验一下。他们会做各种尝试，但他们不知道这些幻象需要部落群体来完成，单靠个人可不行。

Philip Deloria: Traditionally the vision, you would go up, you would fast, you would pray. You know, you might drink a little bit of water, and you might be up there for four days. So there's a kind of a sense of like what's happening here. Right? And you get sort of the logical positivist who says, well, you know, if you don't eat or drink for four days, you know, and you don't sleep, you know, you're going to start seeing things. Right? I mean, and that there is some element of truth to that, and that is part of the intention behind a vision quest. But that is like only the surface veneer of the truth of it. Right? 

菲利普·德洛里亚：按照传统，看到幻象的时候，你会蹿上云端幻境，不进食，并且一直祷告。你会喝一点点水，但会一直在云端幻象中呆上四天，叫人想知道那儿发生了什么。有人会照着这个逻辑，推测如果连续四天不进食不喝水，也不睡觉，就一定会看到幻象。这似乎是在探索真相，或许这也是人们想要体验幻象的目的之一。但这种所谓的真相只是浮于表面。

Philip Deloria: For Black Elk and for other folks, the truth of it is that you put yourself in that position, a position of supplication, of humility in order to actually get the spirits to have mercy on you and to grant you certain kinds of powers or let you see certain kinds of things. And then when you have the vision, when the vision is complete, you come down from the hill where you’re vision questing and you immediately go into the sweat lodge with the old men and you say, “This is what I saw.” And they collectively interpret it for you and you take it out into the community and you perform the vision. So it's a communal thing. 

菲利普·德洛里亚：在黑麋鹿他们看来，看到幻象的真正原因是你虔诚祷告、为人谦逊。这样神灵才会眷顾你，赐予你神力，让你看到幻象。当你看到幻象之后，回到真实世界中，你要从幻象之山上下来，和老人一起走到汗屋里，告诉他们：“这就是我看到的。”他们会一起为你解释幻象的涵义，让你去部落里演示幻象。所以说幻象要靠群体来完成。

Philip Deloria: You know, I think what a lot of white counter-culturalists is thought about was like, you know, this is a me thing, right? It was a little bit of a narcissistic kind of turn on the vision. And they, you know, would sort of devise their own kinds of vision quest things where they'd go out and they’d, you know, sit there for a couple of days and hope that they saw something. And, you know, fine, you know, no harm, no foul. Right? Because I just don't I don't sense my own belief is that the efficacy of that, is not the same thing as the efficacy of it when someone like Black Elk, you know, was doing it.

菲利普·德洛里亚：而很多白人反文化运动者觉得单靠他们自己就可以了，这其实有几分自恋。他们会自己跑去想办法，在那儿坐几天，想要看到幻象。好吧，也没违法乱纪，倒也无妨。但我个人觉得这些人想要的幻象和黑麋鹿看到的幻象完全就是两码事儿，效果、作用完全不同。

Why should we read the book today?

如今我们为何需要读这本书？

Zachary Davis: Right. Why should people today pick up this book and read it?

扎卡里·戴维斯：没错。那如今，为什么我们需要读这本书呢？

Philip Deloria: Yeah, well. Let me say a couple of things about that. I think first of all, there is, the book is so finely crafted that it is an experience of literary pleasure. Right? And I think that's a good reason to read a book, and it's the gateway perhaps into this. It's also an experience of certain kinds of social otherness. And John Neihardt actually theorized this term of otherness, which we attach to sort of more contemporary literary theory. 

菲利普·德洛里亚：我觉得有几方面原因。首先这本书非常精美，会让你感受到文学的乐趣，对吧？我觉得这是读书的好理由，会带你走进文学的殿堂。其次，它会让你了解社会中的他者。约翰·内哈特其实将“他者”这个术语理论化了，当代文学理论中会更常提到这个概念。

Philip Deloria: He was talking about otherness in the 1930s and the experience of engaging something wholly other as Rudolf Otto, the German theologian, might have talked about. So Neihardt was attuned to that. This book gives you a sense of sort of like there are other alternative worlds that are possible and that may be real, right? And that, I think, creates in us as readers a certain kind of sense of humility about, you know, our confidence in claiming certain kinds of things.

菲利普·德洛里亚：他谈到了30年代时的他者，还谈到了他者体验，这点德国神学家鲁道夫•奥托也曾谈过。内哈特对这些都很了解。这本书会让你觉得，可能确实有另外一个世界。我们作为读者会因此变得谦逊，对自己的固有认知留有一丝质疑。

Philip Deloria: And then I would say the third thing is, our conversation in the United States today around race and ethnicity and immigration tends to leave Native people out. It's been really a joy and a pleasure and a privilege, I think, to watch as we commemorate 1619 and the sort of origins of American slavery. But there are a whole series of stories about Native people that we might tell at the same time, we tell those stories as I sometimes often perhaps say Native people make up 1.5 percent of the American population and Native people get about 1.5 percent of people's collective attention, usually episodically, usually around issues of, you know, cultural appropriation, mascots and things like that. People don't actually understand very much about Native America. 

菲利普·德洛里亚：当然还有第三个原因。如今我们谈到美国种族问题、移民问题的时候，往往会忽视原住民。从1619年美国黑奴制开始到如今，我们取得了重大进步，这确实让人欢欣雀跃、倍感自豪。但我们也要看到原住民的历史，讲述他们的故事。我经常说，原住民占了美国人口的1.5%，而我们对他们的关注也只有区区1.5%。况且我们对他们的了解还很片面，还停留在文化挪用、图腾这些方面。人们其实对原住民所知甚少。

Philip Deloria: This is the kind of book that can be a little bit of a gateway into that, thinking a bit more about things that lead you to law, and politics, and sovereignty, things which are really important as we think about Native people. This is a book that doesn't really address those questions, but gives you some of the tools to start thinking about the histories that lead you there. So I think for all those reasons, it's a fantastic read. It takes you to places that you would not ordinarily go. And it actually has some social relevance to the contemporary moment.

菲利普·德洛里亚：而这本书可以带你稍微进一步了解他们的文化，看看他们的法律、政治、部落统治，这些都是原住民文化中非常重要的部分。这本书无法解决原住民遇到的问题，但是会带给你启发，让你思考为什么历史会发展到这一步。我觉得出于上述原因，这本书非常值得一读。它会带你了解一个你所知甚少的世界，在当今社会也有很强的现实意义。

Zachary Davis: Writ Large is an exclusive production of Ximalaya. Writ Large is produced by Galen Beebe and me, Zachary Davis, with help from Feiran Du, Ariel Liu, Wendy Wu, and Monica Zhang. Music is by Blue Dot Sessions. Don’t miss an episode. Subscribe today in the Ximalaya app. Thanks for listening.

扎卡里·戴维斯：本节目由喜马拉雅独家制作播出。感谢您的收听，我们下期再见！