【英文翻译版65】托莉·莫伊：《第二性》

英文文稿+中文翻译 

Zachary Davis:My church in Cambridgeis full of young graduate students who come from all over the country. And there's something that happens really regularly there that drives my wife Mariya crazy. When you meet a new person and my wife and I are standingtogether, they 99% of the time will look at me first and ask me, “So, what doyou do?” Sometimes they’ll ask Mariya if she works, but very often they don’t ask at all, just assuming that she takes care of our children full-time.

扎卡里·戴维斯：我们剑桥市的教堂里有很多来自美国各地的年轻研究生。在那儿，我的妻子玛丽亚经常遇到一些叫她抓狂的事。当我俩一起遇到一个新认识的人时，百分之九十九的时候他们会先看向我，问：“你是做什么工作的？”有时候，他们会问玛丽亚上不上班，但更多时候他们默认她是全职太太，在家照顾孩子，根本不问她工作的事情。

Zachary Davis: These kind of default assumptions about the social roles of men and women is one of the central ideas of French philosopher and writer Simone de Beauvoir’s 1949 book, The Second Sex. The Second Sex was incredibly empowering because it revealed the myths and norms that perpetuated male dominance over women.

扎卡里·戴维斯：这种男女社会角色的刻板印象，便是1949年法国哲学家和作家西蒙娜·德·波伏娃在《第二性》探讨的核心问题之一。《第二性》之所以影响深远，是因为它揭示了那些让女性一直以来难以摆脱男性支配的迷思与条条框框。

Toril Moi: The Second Sex changed the world in so many ways.Without The Second Sex, I am quite sure that women's situation in, in the Western world today would be totally different. It's just foundational to the culture we live in today for women.I'm Toril Moi. I teach at Duke University, where I'm the James B. Duke Professor of Literature, Romance Studies and Professor of English Philosophy and Theater Studies.

托莉·莫伊：《第二性》以各种方式改变了世界。如果没有这本书，我相信如今西方世界女性的处境会完全不同。它奠定了如今女性所面对的社会文化。我是杜克大学的教授托莉·莫伊。我的研究领域是文学与罗曼语，我被罗曼语系聘任为“詹姆斯·杜克杰出教授”。此外，我还研究英国哲学与戏剧。

Zachary Davis: The Second Sex was written in French, but Professor Moi first read a Norwegian translation when she was a high schooler in Norway, and it ended up profoundly impacting her.

扎卡里·戴维斯：《第二性》的原著是法语，莫伊教授在挪威读高中时第一次读了挪威语的译本。这本书对她影响深远。

Toril Moi: You find the books you need when you need them. For me to pick up The Second Sex when I was 15, if that book was meant for me and it shaped my life. But really, it's a refrain you hear about The Second Sex when you read about its effect, you can find women in Japan, India, Africa, everywhere, who says, I read that book and it changed my life. And that was true for me, too.

托莉·莫伊：你需要什么书的时候，它们自然会来到你面前。十五岁的时候，我读了《第二性》，仿佛冥冥之中自有天意。这本书改变了我的人生。对别人也一样。你常常会听到别人谈起《第二性》带给她们的影响。你会发现，日本、印度、非洲乃至世界各地的女性都说，她们读过它，它影响了她们的人生。对我也是如此。

Zachary Davis: The Second Sex shattered commonly held beliefs of what a woman’s life could be, opening up new dreams and possibilities.

扎卡里·戴维斯：《第二性》打破了人们对女性生活的固有观念，为女性带去了新的梦想和更多可能。

Toril Moi: I realized that there was a world out there where women didn't just have to stay at home and be housewives and bring up children. You should realize I grew up in the countryside in Norway wherethere were no jobs for women. The only women who worked outside the home that I knew and could see around me were teachers in elementary school, also a couple of high school teachers. I suppose that must have been some nurses, but we didn't know at the and of course, all the doctors were men back then.

托莉·莫伊：我意识到原来有这样一个世界，在那里女性可以做的不仅仅是当个家庭主妇、带带孩子。我从小在挪威农村长大，那儿没有什么女性可以做的工作。除了当家庭主妇，她们只能当小学老师，少数几个人当了中学老师。可能还有些做了护士，但我不是很确定，因为当时那儿所有医生都是男性。

Toril Moi: So I was thinking, I don't want to spend my life in a little village in Norway, I don't know, working on a farm, bringing up children. And here's this woman who tells me that I, too, can go out in the world and do things and that it's actually unfair, unjust, and alimitation of my freedom to tell me I can't. I just loved it.

托莉·莫伊：我那时候就在想，我不想在挪威的一个小村庄里度过一生，不想在农场干活、带孩子。这时候波伏娃告诉我，你也可以出去工作，如果有人说不可以，那这其实是不公平的，而且侵犯了你的自由。我太喜欢她的话了。

Zachary Davis: Welcome to Writ Large, a podcast about how books change the world. I’m Zachary Davis. In each episode, I talk with one of the world’s leading scholars about one book that changed the course of history. For this episode, I sat down with Professor Toril Moi to discuss Simone de Beauvoir’s The Second Sex.

扎卡里·戴维斯：欢迎收听：100本改变你和世界的书，在这里我们为大家讲述改变世界的书籍。我是扎卡里·戴维斯。每一集，我都会和一位世界顶尖学者探讨一本影响历史进程的书。在本集，我和托莉·莫伊教授一起讨论若西蒙娜·德·波伏娃的《第二性》。

Zachary Davis: Let's talk about Simone de Beauvoir. How did she prepare to become a writer who changed all thesewomen's lives?

扎卡里·戴维斯：我们来谈谈西蒙娜·德·波伏娃吧。是什么让她成为了一个改变女性命运的作家？

Toril Moi: Well, Simone de Beauvoir was born in 1908. She died in 1986. She was born in Paris into a very conservative Catholic family. She was the eldest of two sisters. And given that she was born into a sort of conservative, correct-thinking Catholic family, she was sent to Catholic girl schools, which where she was taught by nuns.

托莉·莫伊：西蒙娜·德·波伏娃于1908年出生，1986年去世。她出生在巴黎一个非常保守的天主教家庭，是姐妹俩中的老大。他们家信仰天主教，而且思想很传统，所以波伏娃被送到天主教女子学校读书，老师都是修女。

Toril Moi: She was never allowed to do anything without the supervision of her mother until she was 18. Her mother read all the letters she received before she passed them on to Simone because the whole culture she grew up in was one in which Catholic young girl has to be extremely innocent, unaware of sexuality, lead an utterly blameless life, and that's included things like limiting women's access to sports, for example, because let's face it, running around, playing tennis, you show off a lot of body and so on.

托莉·莫伊：18岁之前，她做所有事情都要被母亲知道。甚至连她收到的信，都得母亲先过目，然后才拿给她看。因为在他们家的天主教传统中，女孩子必须纯洁无瑕，在性方面要懵懂无知，生活上要无可指摘，不能参加体育运动，因为在当时跑来跑去、打网球之类的举动有卖弄身形的嫌疑。

Zachary Davis: And how did she begin her academic or intellectual life?

扎卡里·戴维斯：波伏娃的学术生涯是如何开始的？

Toril Moi: With this background, she actually had a very bad starting point from becoming a major intellectual of the 20thcentury, because the intellectual level of private Catholic schools for girls was way below the public high schools in the very good French Lycée system.

托莉·莫伊：出身在这样的背景之中，波伏娃想要成为20世纪重要的知识分子，她的起点其实非常糟糕。在法国优质公立中学体系下，私立天主教女校的教学水平要远低于公立中学。

Zachary Davis: Beauvoir did have one year of philosophy education in her Catholic school, but the curriculum didn’t exactly encourage free thinking. The priest who taught the class apparently just read from the text book. Beauvoir’s luck changed after the First World War,when her father lost all of his money. This was terrible news for the family,but it was great news for Beauvoir herself. Beauvoir’s father had planned tomarry his daughter off and give her money to help establish her new family. Without money of her own, she wouldn’t be able to marry a wealthy husband.

扎卡里·戴维斯：波伏娃在天主教学校接受了一年的哲学教育，但这些课并不鼓励独立思考，授课的老师都在照本宣科。第一次世界大战后，波伏娃迎来了人生的转折。她的父亲没了积蓄。这对整个家庭来说无异于五雷轰顶，但对波伏娃来说却是个好消息。原先，父亲打算安排波伏娃结婚，给她一笔钱，用来建立小家庭。但现在没有了钱，波伏娃就没法嫁给有钱人家了。

Toril Moi: And he realized that his daughters would need an education because they might have to fend for themselves. So Beauvoir was allowed to go to university because they had no money. And evenso, she wanted to study at the Sorbonne, but that was seen as too godless. So she was sent to the Institut Catholique, which was a Catholic university where she wanted to study philosophy. But philosophy was also seen as a godless subject because, well, it's not the ology, essentially.

托莉·莫伊：他意识到，女儿们需要接受教育，因为她们可能不得不靠自己挣钱糊口。所以，正因为没了钱，波伏娃反而可以上大学了。当时波伏娃想去索邦大学。可家人觉得那儿太没有宗教氛围了，就将她送到了巴黎天主教大学，那是一所信奉天主教的大学。波伏娃想在那儿学哲学，但哲学也不怎么涉及到宗教，因为本质上它不是神学。

Toril Moi: So she was stuck doing classics at the Institut Catholique. She did Greek and Latin and so on, and stuck in doing that for about a year. And then she said, then she put her foot down, said, I want to study philosophy. And she went to the Sorbonne and of course, had a huge amount of catching up to do.

托莉·莫伊：于是波伏娃只好待在天主教大学，学习古希腊、古罗马文化，包括希腊语、拉丁语等等。学了大概一年，她停下来说，还是想学哲学。就这样，她终于去了索邦大学。当然，她要补的功课很多。

Zachary Davis: The Sorbonne, also known as The University of Paris, was the most prestigious university in France, and Beauvoir totally thrived. Towards the end of her studies she made friends with another philosophy student named Jean-Paul Sartre. Sartre and Beauvoir were both interested in existential philosophy and phenomenology,which emphasized individual experience and freedom of choice.

扎卡里·戴维斯：索邦大学又称“巴黎大学”，是法国最负盛名的大学。波伏娃在这儿进步得很快。快要毕业时，她和哲学系学生让-保罗·萨特成了朋友。萨特和波伏娃都对存在主义哲学和现象学感兴趣。存在主义强调个人经历和自由选择。

Toril Moi: By the time the two of them meet, when they're preparing their final philosophy exam, the so-called “agrégation”, which would guarantee them a job in the school system. He had studied philosophy for something like eight years in the best institution since she had done five in a rather less impressive institutions, and in that exams considered the most difficult in France.

托莉·莫伊：两人相遇时，都正在准备法国大中学哲学教师资格考试。考试通过的话，他们将有资格在学校教书。此时的萨特已经在最高学府学了大约八年哲学，而波伏娃在一所相对次一点的学校学了五年。这场考试被看作法国最难的考试。

Toril Moi: He came first and she came second. But what the textbooks don't tell you is that he that was the second time Sartre took it. He failed the year before and she was trying it for the first time. So but they lived in a sexist culture and Sartre took it as his birth right to be number one, that the agrégation of philosophy. And Beauvoir seemed to have accepted that she was second in philosophy to Sartre, but second only to Sartre.

托莉·莫伊：结果萨特排名第一，波伏娃排名第二。但是课本上没说，那是萨特第二次参加考试，前一年他没考过，而波伏娃是第一次尝试参加。但是，在当时的文化中，两性也不是全然对等的。因此，萨特把拿到第一这件事情看得是理所当然的，而波伏娃似乎也坦然接受自己在哲学上比萨特逊色，但也仅仅逊于萨特。

Toril Moi: And although Beauvoir always put sherself down as a lesser philosopher than Sartre on my reading, she neverclaims to be a lesser philosopher than anyone else. So there’s that.

托莉·莫伊：尽管在我读过的书里，波伏娃总说自己在哲学上比萨特稍逊一筹，但她从来没说过自己比其他什么哲学家要稍逊一筹。情况就是这样。

Zachary Davis: So after she graduated, what did she do for, you know, her writing career or her working career leading up towriting The Second Sex?

扎卡里·戴维斯：毕业后，她如何开启了写作生涯、如何开始写《第二性》？

TorilMoi: She always wanted to be a writer, but of course, she needed money. So she passed the agrégation that gave her a paid job in the state system. And until the year before she started working, women teachers were paid less than men teachers, even though they had the same education. But that was changed the year before Simone de Beauvoir could,started teaching so well. So Beauvoir, in fact, never had the experience of being paid less than men for the same work.

托莉·莫伊：波伏娃一直想成为一名作家，当然她也需要钱。她通过了教师资格考试，在法国教育系统得到了一份教职。但直到她工作的前一年，法国女教师的薪水都比男教师低，即使他们受过相同的教育。不过在波伏娃参加工作的那一年，情况好转了。所以其实，波伏娃从来没有过两性同工不同酬的经历。

TorilMoi: But that was like by the nick of time. If she had been a few years older, she couldn't even have studied for the agrégation and philosophy alongside men because they was kept separate for many years. So she had this meritocratic attitude: I obviously can do exactly what I want, and look, it's working.

托莉·莫伊：但一切仅仅是正逢其时。如果她早几年出生，她甚至都没法和男性一起参加法国哲学教师资格考试，因为此前很多年里，男性和女性都是分开考试的。所以她有一种优绩主义的态度，觉得她显然想做什么，就能做什么，毕竟自己都做成了。

Zachary Davis: For the next two years Beauvoir lived in Paris and worked as a high school teacher. Around this time she developed a romantic partnership with Sartre that would last roughly fifty years until his death in 1980. Although she had a steady job as a teacher, Beauvoir’s true interest was in writing. She began with short stories and novels.

扎卡里·戴维斯：接下来的两年，波伏娃住在巴黎，平日里在高中教书。大概在这个时候，她与萨特相恋。这段恋情一直持续了差不多五十年，直到1980年萨特去世。尽管波伏娃一直在做教师这份安稳的工作，但她真正的兴趣还是写作。最初，她写了一些短篇故事和小说。

Toril Moi: And you haveto realize that if we say she starts writing, trying to become a writer alongside being a high school teacher in 1929, her first novel, L’invitée, was published in 1943. That's 14 years of trying and failing to become a writer.

托莉·莫伊：1929年，波伏娃成为了一名中学老师，与此同时开始尝试写作。在经历了十四年的尝试和失败后，1943年，她的第一本小说《女宾》出版了。

Zachary Davis: Beauvoir experimented with different styles such as novels, dramas, and nonfiction. She published sixmore works before writing The Second Sex.

扎卡里·戴维斯：波伏娃尝试了小说、戏剧、非虚构等不同的体裁。在写《第二性》之前，她出版了六本书。

Toril Moi: I think the key thing in her background to understand The Second Sex is this: she writes in her diary somewhere that when or in her memoirs that she writes, “WhenI was 23 and studied philosophy, I did not think of myself as a woman. I thought of myself as me. I was me. And that was all there was to it.” And then after World War Two, after, you know, history has rolled in over their lives and that of all of the French, then she starts thinking that she would like to write an autobiography.

托莉·莫伊：如果要了解《第二性》，那么在波伏娃本人的背景中，最重要的是下面这一点。波伏娃日记还是回忆录中写过：“二十三岁学哲学的时候，我从来没把自己看作一位女性，我只将看作我自己。我就是我，对当时的我而言不过如此。”然而第二次世界大战之后，他们乃至所有法国人的生活都受到了冲击。于是波伏娃想要写一本自传。

Toril Moi: This is an idea she comes up with in 1946, and Sartre Beauvoir discussed all their projects always together every day. They read each other's text and commented and so on. And Beauvoir said to Sartre, “Well, I think I want to write about myself for my next book.”

托莉·莫伊：1946年，她萌生出了这个想法。当时萨特和波伏娃每天都会一起讨论手头的写作计划，阅读彼此的文章，互相点评。波伏娃告诉萨特，她下一本书想写自传。

Toril Moi: And Sartre says, “well, shouldn't you ask yourself what it has meant for you to be a woman? And Beauvoir’s answers, according to her own account, “Oh, surely that hasn't mattered. That hasn't made any difference.” And Sartre says, “Well, you weren't brought up like a boy was. I think you should think more about that.” So Beauvoir took his advice, decided to think a bit more and went to the Bibliotheque Nationale, the National Library in Paris and started reading up on what shecalls myths of women.

托莉·莫伊：萨特说：“为什么不问一下自己，身为一名女性意味着什么呢？”根据波伏娃本人的回忆，她当时的反应是：“那不要紧，我的性别没有给我带来任何影响。”萨特则说：“你可没有像男孩那样被抚养长大，我觉得你可以多思考思考这个问题。”于是波伏娃接受了他的意见，去了法国国家图书馆，大量翻阅、了解自己口中的“对于女性的迷思”。

Toril Moi: And voila, puts aside the memoirs andstarted writing The Second Sex. And so she in fact, you can read TheSecond Sex as a book in which Simone de Beauvoir discovers that she is a woman and what that has meant to her. I think that's what gives it power.

托莉·莫伊：波伏娃不打算写自传了，她开始写《第二性》。你可以把《第二性》看作这样一本书：在写这本书的过程中，波伏娃意识到自己是一个女性，意识到这对自己意味着什么。我觉得这就是为什么这本书这么鼓舞人。

Zachary Davis: Yeah, it would have to, right? It's as though she also is discovering these truths in real time, which probably accounts for some of the, you know, the urgency of the writing and the sense of discovery.

扎卡里·戴维斯：必须的。写书的同时，波伏娃似乎也在发觉这些事实，这或许解释了她为什么这么迫切地写这样一本书，以及她为什么有这么深的见地。

Toril Moi: The energy, the urgency is phenomenal. First of all, The Second Sex, it's like a UFO in the French intellectuallandscape. In the immediate post-war period, the book was published in 1949, there was no women's movement. This was the reconstruction after the war, people were trying to build up the country. There simply was no debate on thesethings. This was just Beauvoir’s wish to get clear on this issue — What does it mean to be born a woman? That's what The Second Sex does — What are the implications?

托莉·莫伊：书里传递的能量和迫切感都非比寻常。《第二性》就像UFO一样横空出现在法国知识界。1949年，二战结束后的不久，这本书出版了，当时并没有女性主义运动。那时正是战后重建时期，人们都在忙着重建家园，没有人讨论性别问题。但波伏娃希望能弄清楚，身为女性意味着什么。这就是《第二性》做的事情——探讨女性身份的涵义。

Toril Moi: One should say that an important ingredient in Beauvoir’s understanding of a women's situation actually comes from the United States, because in 1947, she spent five months in America and visited all around the country. And you can find a lot of examples from American women in The Second Sex. She also read quite a bit of American work. She was deeply inspired also by Gunnar Myrdal, the Swedish intellectual’s sociological analysis of the race relationsin America. His analysis of the discrimination against African-Americans actually influenced Beauvoir's understanding of how women suppression works.

托莉·莫伊：波伏娃对女性处境的理解很大程度上受美国社会的影响。1947年，她在美国待了五个月，走访了美国各地。在《第二性》中，你可以找到很多美国女性的例子。她还阅读了很多美国作品。瑞典学者纲纳·缪达尔对美国种族关系的社会学分析也深深地启发了她。缪达尔分析了美国黑人遭遇的歧视，这启发了波伏娃去理解女性是如何受压迫的。

Zachary Davis: In the introduction ofthe text, Beauvoir asks this question, which rather incredibly few had asked before: what is a woman?

扎卡里·戴维斯：在序言中，波伏娃提出了此前鲜有人提及的问题——什么是女人？

Toril Moi: And she says, well, the Platonists or we would call them the essentialists say it's an essence. And Beauvoir dismisses that. And then the nominalist says, oh, it's nothing. It's just the name. She dismisses that — that seems a little too quick. And then she says, well, but where should we begin then? And this is where you can see her philosophical background as the phenomenologists and existentialists.

托莉·莫伊：她说，柏拉图主义者、或者如今我们所说的“本质主义者”认为女性气质就是女人的本质。波伏娃否认了这一点。唯名论者说，女人就是“女人”这个词所指的那些人。波伏娃也否认了这一点，说这个结论下得太仓促了。接着她问道，我们要从哪儿谈起呢？从她的论述中，你能看出她的现象学和存在主义哲学背景。

Toril Moi: She says, let's bracket the question of what a woman actually is. Let's just say that right now, when I look around,I walk down the street, it looks as if there are roughly two categories of human beings with different gaits and different clothes and all this. That's not a philosophical commitment to any kind of difference. But let's begin by investigating this. And that's what she does.

托莉·莫伊：她说，让我们先悬置“女人是什么”这个问题。让我们先假设自己正走在街上，环顾四周，我们可以发现人是分成两种的，他们的神情、衣着等等都不一样。这些差别是表面的，不涉及任何哲学层面的分别，但我们可以以此入手探究下去。她就是这么做的。

Toril Moi: And then she says with this starting point, knowing that these differences may turn out to be provisional or based on nothing whatsoever, I will ask again, what is awoman? Andthen comes the extremely original turn, which goes right back to the autobiographical starting point, which is the idea that she says, OK, I'masking again, what is a woman?

托莉·莫伊：然后，她以此出发，说，虽然这些差别可能是暂时的，或是毫无根据的，但不管怎么说，我还是会问：什么是女人？接下来她迈出了极具原创性的一步，这一步可以追溯到她本人想要从自传的视角写这本书的起因，也就是她心中对于“什么是女人”的疑问。

Toril Moi: Then she says, the first thing that strikes me when I think of how to answer is that I am a woman. And then she says a man can write a book without drawing attention to the fact that he is aman, but I know that when I begin, I must say that I am a woman, for this is the background against which all I say will be heard. The fact that she is a woman cannot be detached by her. Everyone will hear her words against that background, which is that she's the woman. Whereas the man can hold forth without reminding anyone that he's a man.

托莉·莫伊：她说，当我思考如何回答这个问题的时候，我首先想到的是，我自己是一个女人。男人写书的时候可能不会注意到自己是一个男人，但是我深知我写书的时候，必须说我是个女人。因为人们正是在这个大前提下聆听我所说的一切的。性别是女性撕不去的标签。人们听她说话时脑子里永远都有这么个标签。相比之下，男人可以侃侃而谈，却不用提醒别人自己是男人。

Toril Moi: We say man and he when we mean the universal. So, man is the universal. Woman is the particular. He is thesubject. She is the object. He is the absolute. She is the relative. He is the one. She is the other. And that insight that woman culturally speaking, underpatriarchy, woman is the other, it's the fundamental idea in The Second Sexand it is genius.

托莉·莫伊：当我们泛指一般的人时，我们用“男人”（man）或是单人旁的“他”；特指某个女性时，我们才用“女人”或女字旁的“她”。男人是普遍的，女人是特殊的；男人是主体；女人是客体。男人是绝对；女人是相对。男人是自我；女人是她者。在父权制下，女人从文化上被视为他者。这就是《第二性》的基本观点，实在是天才的想法。

Zachary Davis: So this insight that men are standard or default and universal and women are other. What conclusions flowed from that insight?

扎卡里·戴维斯：波伏娃发现，男人是标准的、默认的、普遍的，而女人是他者。她从中得出了什么结论？

Toril Moi: First of all, it gives you a tool with which to analyze concrete situations in the world.

托莉·莫伊：首先，它给了你一种分析实际情况的工具。

Zachary Davis: For example, there is often an assumption that men are the people in power. If a man is in power, people don’t mention his gender. But if a woman is in power, people point it out.

扎卡里·戴维斯：比如，人们一般会默认领导是男人。如果一个男人当了领导，人们不会提到他的性别；但如果当领导的是女人，人们就会指出来。

Toril Moi: I remember when Drew Faust became president of Harvard and there was a big brouhaha because shewas the first female president of Harvard, right? She had to give an interview where she says, I'm not just the woman president of Harvard, I am the presidentof Harvard. That tells you exactly what's at stake here. If a woman is always mocked as the specific, the particular, the relative, and that's another way of also being the other, then they will go on about your gender.

托莉·莫伊：我记得德鲁·福斯特当上哈佛大学校长的时候，就引发了很多关注，因为她是哈佛大学第一任女校长。乃至她在采访时还不得不说：“我不仅是哈佛的女校长，我是哈佛的校长。”这就展现了女人的处境。如果一个女人总是被嗤笑为特殊的、特定的、相对的，她也就会被视作他者，人们也就继续会对她的性别评头论足。

Zachary Davis: As Drew Faust herself stressed, she was not just the woman president of Harvard. She was the president of Harvard.

扎卡里·戴维斯：正如德鲁·福斯特强调的那样，她是哈佛的女校长，但“女”字不应该是重点。

Toril Moi: To say I'm the president of Harvard is to claim the universal. The term, this is in Beauvoir’s sense, the term president can be filled by anyone, it's just that men had hijacked that term sothat the universal was de facto male. And that came out when we got a female president of Harvard.

托莉·莫伊：“哈佛校长”指的是一般性的情况。在波伏娃看来，“校长”这个词可以指任何人。只不过男人掠走了这个词，于是一般情况下它指的便是男性。而当哈佛有了女校长之后，我们就会额外强调“女”字。

Toril Moi: Same thing came out when Obama ran for president in 2008, where he had to make an enormous effort to present himself as a presidential candidate who also was black, not the black president, because, again, president is not supposed to be a marked term.

托莉·莫伊：2008年奥巴马竞选总统时，也出现了类似的事。竞选中，奥巴马不得不做出巨大的努力去强调自己总统候选人的身份，淡化人们对他肤色的强调，因为同样地，“总统”这个词在一般情况下指的都是白人。

Toril Moi: Obama had to tread this balancing line between being cast as, oh, he's the black president, just like Faust is the woman president, just as opposed to the full authority of the universal. Well, he's the president and so is she.

托莉·莫伊：奥巴马不得不努力平衡人们对他的两种身份塑造：一边是“黑人总统候选人”，就好像福斯特是“女校长”一样，而另一边则是普世化的默认称呼，“总统候选人”。但实际上，他们不过是总统或校长，仅此而已。

Zachary Davis: Beauvoir also points out how women are “othered” in intellectual conversations. She knew this from personal experience. When she argued philosophical ideas with a male peer, whatever opinions or conclusions she had were held against the backdrop of being a woman. Her male peer could say, “ the only reason yousay that is because you’re a woman, not because it’s true.”

扎卡里·戴维斯：波伏娃还指出了女性知识分子在和别人探讨问题时如何被“他者化”。她从自身经历中得出了这个结论。当她与一个男性同龄人争论哲学观点的时候，对方往往觉得，她之所以会有这些观点或结论，是因为她是女人。对方可能会说：“你这么说仅仅是因为你是女人，而不是因为事实是这样的。”

Toril Moi: In a sexist intellectual institution, if someone says that, then they are saying that the very fact that you're a woman blocks you from the universal. You cannot have access, and here the universal is truth, right? That's what philosophy is all about. So you cannot have the truth about Descartes. You could just have a partial female perspective.

托莉·莫伊：在一个充斥着性别歧视的学术环境中，如果有人这么说，他们言下之意便是，你的女性性别让你无法探求到普遍真理。你的性别决定了你体会不了普遍，而真理必须是普遍的，哲学探求的又恰恰是普遍真理。所以你无法了解关于笛卡尔的全部真理，因为你只能从女性的、偏颇的视角去理解。

Zachary Davis: Beauvoir responded, “I say it because it’s true.”

扎卡里·戴维斯：而波伏娃的回应是：“我这么说是因为事实就是这么回事。”

Toril Moi: Why does Beauvoir think in 1949 that her only comeback is to say, “oh, I say it because it's true”? You can see she's claiming the universal, but she says that it's not without costs. The cost is now I'm eradicating my subjectivity for the fact that she is the woman.

托莉·莫伊：为什么1949年波伏娃觉得这是她唯一能做出的反驳？你可以看到，她意在证明女性也可以获得普遍真理。但这么说并非没有代价。代价就是，我要为自己身为女性这一事实抹去我的主观性。

Toril Moi: And the fact is, I thought this formyself often. It's quite possible that my reading of Kant or Hegel is marked by my experiences as a woman in the world, just as a man's reading of Hegel and Kant is marked by his experiences as a man in the world. But it doesn't follow from that that only one of those comes as universal truth. It means that we draw on the subjectivities we have in order to understand philosophy. And sexism is when you say, well, women can do philosophy if they never ever remind me that they are a woman.

托莉·莫伊：其实，我自己也经常思考这个问题。我对康德和黑格尔的解读很有可能会被我身为女性的各种经历所影响，就像一个男人对他们的解读也可能会被他身为男性的各种经历所影响。但这并不意味着，只有其中一种解读才是普遍真理。这仅仅意味着我们要借助自己的主观性来理解哲学。而这里性别歧视的点在于，人们觉得女人只有在他们面前抹去性别，才能弄懂哲学。

Toril Moi: So you can see there’s a kind of double edge here. On the one hand, sexism will remind youall the time that you're a woman, but on the other hand, it will tell you that if you want to do really great philosophical work, you should pretend to argueas if you were a man. Beauvoir exposes that dilemma perfectly and so early. So this was totally new. It's hard to understand how radical this book was.

托莉·莫伊：于是这儿这就会出现双刃剑的效果。一方面，性别歧视的传统会不断提醒你你是女人。另一方面，它又会告诉你，如果你想在哲学方面颇有建树，那你就要假装像一个男人那样和人争论。波伏娃早早地彻底揭露了这个矛盾。这个观点在当时可是前所未有的，你很难想象在那个年代这本书是多么激进。

Zachary Davis: Another major theme Beauvoir explores in The Second Sex is about women’s freedom—or lack thereof.

扎卡里·戴维斯：波伏娃在《第二性》中探讨的另一个主题是，女性的自由问题——或者说缺乏自由的问题。

Toril Moi: She's saying if everyone has the kindof metaphysical freedom, then freedom means to be able to act and take responsibility for your actions. But if woman is the other, then it is, a society is trying to limit women's freedom in a way it's not trying to limit men's freedom. Again, this doesn't mean that all men are perfectly free. She obviously think there’s class and race and so on. But within each of these groups, under patriarchy, women will somehow enjoy to behave as if their destiny is given. Whereas men can in, at least in Western societies, create their destiny. Women must pick up their destiny, as it were.

托莉·莫伊：她说，如果每个人都有形而上层面的自由，那么他就能按自我意愿行事，并且对自己的行为负责。但如果女性是他者，那么整个社会就会以一种不曾限制男性自由的方式限制女性的自由。当然，这并不意味着所有男性都是绝对自由的，社会阶级和种族歧视的存在同样会限制部分男性的自由。但在父权制下的各个群体中，女性不知为何总是安于自己的命运，仿佛一切都是注定的、无可更改的；而男性——至少是西方社会的男性，却能够创造自己的命运。女性只能服从分配给她的命运，差不多是这样。

Toril Moi: So Beauvoir's ideal of a just society with respect to gender. It's what she calls “reciprocity”. Reciprocity means that I respect you as a subject. You are an object for me, everyone’s objects for each other. But I think of when you enter my world, you're an object for me. But if I respect you as a free subject and you respect me as a free subject, then we have relations of reciprocity. It doesn't mean that we all agree, we may fight each other. But if I quarrel about philosophy with you, I'm still respecting your freedom. My very bothering to quarrel with you so that. Right. So the idea is that through work and struggle in society, men and women should work together and respect each other as free subjects.That's how you get out of casting women as the other.

托莉·莫伊：波伏娃构想了一个性别平等的乌托邦。波伏娃用了一个词描绘那种状态下的男女关系——“互惠”。互惠意味着将你看作主体。传统观念中，你是客体，每个人对别人来说都是客体。当你来到我的世界中，你对我就是客体。但如果我尊重你、把你看作一个自由的主体，而你也这么看待我，那么我们之间的关系就是互惠的。但这并是不说我们不能意见相左，我们也可能起争执。但即便我们在争论哲学问题，我仍然尊重你的自由，因为我之所以还在和你争吵，就意味着我尊重你的意见。所以在她的构想中，男人和女人应该在社会工作中、在应对困难的时候互相合作、互相尊重，将彼此看作自由的主体。这样才能让女性不再是他者。

Zachary Davis: Beauvoir also introduces the idea of prioritizing freedom over happiness.

扎卡里·戴维斯：波伏娃还指出，自由比幸福更重要。

TorilMoi: A sexist argument back then would go something like, oh, you want women to go out to work, but they are so much happier at home with their children and their houses, then it's hard to be go to work in factories or so on. And Beauvoir says very curtly, well, it's always easy to declare happy a situation you yourself don't want to share, like they are so happy in their housewife role whereas I, being a 1950s French male would never be a housewife, of course.

托莉·莫伊：那时有一种性别歧视的论调，觉得女人在家带孩子、做家务比出去工作要幸福得多，所以何必让她们去工厂上班。但波伏娃反驳道，有些事情你们自己都不愿意做，却说那样很幸福，说起来倒是轻巧。你们说做家庭主妇很幸福，但你一个20世纪50年代的法国男人绝对不想做家庭主夫。

Zachary Davis: Beauvoir is careful not to generalize or portray all women as victims. They do have freedom, but they don’t always use it, and they don’t always use it for good.

扎卡里·戴维斯：波伏娃努力避免一刀切地将所有女性都描绘成受害者。她们确实有自由，但她们并不常常行使自由，也并不总是行使自由去做好事。

Toril Moi: She thinks that women are free and responsible for their actions, but that society turns on women and try to make them forget that they are free subjects, that women are often helping to oppress other women, and that we are ultimately responsible for trying to livein good faith authentically. That means acting as if you know that you have choices. The whole of The Second Sex is about how the culture takes that consciousness of choices and freedom away from women.

托莉·莫伊：她认为女性是自由的，可以对自己的行为负责，但社会却压迫女性，想让她们忘记自己是自由的主体。她还说，女性甚至常常成为压迫其他女性的帮凶，但最终我们有责任怀揣着真正美好的信念去生活。这意味着，你做事的时候要谨记，自己是可以自由选择的。整部《第二性》都在讲社会文化如何让女性忘记自己是有选择的、自由的。

Toril Moi: She’s not saying like if you are oppressed in a super sexist culture, then you're free to just go about rise up. That's not what she's saying. But she'snot saying either that a person should live through their whole life and say, OK, things were as they were and I couldn't change anything. For her, to live in the state of consciousness of unfreedom, it's authentic. You may not have the power to act, but at least you're not going along with it in your consciousness.

托莉·莫伊：她并不是说，如果你在一个性别歧视极其严重的文化中，你可以轻轻松松得到自由、一下子站起来。但她也并不是说，女性应该一辈子听之任之，觉得既然无能为力，就随它去了。她认为，女性应该切实地意识到自己生活在不自由的环境中，这就是社会现状。也许你无力改变，但至少你心里没有顺从这种性别歧视的文化。

Toril Moi: So I think it's important to remember that she is not arguing that all women are oppressed by all men or that every woman is the victim. She is trying to make us analyze these things in their full complexity. And as current debates show, it's as hard now as ever.

托莉·莫伊：我觉得我们有必要记住，她并不是说所有女性都受到了所有男性的压迫，也不是说每个女性都是是受害者。她努力让我们全面分析这些问题。但就目前在性别议题上舆论来看，全面分析比以往任何时候都困难。

Zachary Davis: So the famous line from her work is “one is not born, but rather becomes a woman”, which is an amazing formulation, what did she mean by that?

扎卡里·戴维斯：波伏娃在《第二性》中写下了一句著名的话：“女人不是天生的，而是后天形成的。”这句话太精彩了。它表达了什么意思呢？

Toril Moi: OK, we are present at the birth of a baby. Someone says it's a girl, and that's when the whole process begins. So in that moment, the world is seeing you as a girl, and you get your identity from the gaze of the other. It's when the others look at you and say it's a girl, that they start treating you as a girl and then you use your freedom to respond to them.

托莉·莫伊：假设一个孩子诞生时我们在场。有人说：“生了个女孩。”这整个过程就这么开始了。从那一刻起，整个世界就把你看作女性，你从他人的凝视中获得了自己的身份属性。他人凝视着你，说这是个女孩，把你当作女孩对待，而你自主地回应他们。

Toril Moi: So we respond differently depending on what classes, races, clans and so on. That's the situation right now. Our situation gives us different forms of responses. And then we are individuals too. That's why for Beauvoir, women don't really have to have that much incommon quite concretely.

托莉·莫伊：我们依据我们我的社会阶层、种族、家族关系做出不同的回应。现实便是如此。我们处境的不同决定了我们回应方式的不同。我们是一个个个体。这就是为什么波伏娃觉得，女性其实不需要那么多具体的共同点。

Toril Moi: Beauvoir is not an identity thinker. She's not thinking about women's identity, but about women's actions and responses. So that for Beauvoir, the whole point is, sexist ideology tries to homogenize women as if they were one thing. And but women are as multiple and various as men. And if women were free, we would see that. So to say, woman is not born, but rather becomes a woman means that you are caught out in the ideological machinery.

托莉·莫伊：波伏娃思考的不是女性的身份，她思考的是女性的行为与对外界的回应。她认为，性别歧视的意识形态试图将女性同质化，仿佛所有女性都是一模一样的。但女性和男性一样各不相同。如果女性获得了自由，我们就能看到这一点。“女性不是天生的，而是后天形成的”，是因为意识形态将你束缚成了所谓的“女性”。

Zachary Davis: So let's talk now about its after life. It appears to have helped catalyze and strengthen, you know,what we call now second-wave feminism. I'd love to hear, you know, a little bit of kind of the history of feminism from you. What was first wave and what was second wave?

扎卡里·戴维斯：我们现在来谈谈这本书的后续影响吧。它似乎推动了第二波女性主义运动的发展。你可以给我们讲讲女性主义运动的历史吗？什么是第一波和第二波女性主义运动？

Toril Moi: First wave feminism is — the quickest way of saying it is this was the struggle for the right to vote, but it's alsothe struggle for women's right to higher education. It starts in the middle ofthe 19th century. Early writers in that mode would be John Stuart Mill. Andthen, of course, my countryman Henrik Ibsen, in plays like A Doll's House where a woman leaves her family to get education. But essentially the big thrust of the first women's movement was 1880 to 1920 or 1930 and culminated in the women's right to vote.

托莉·莫伊：简而言之，第一波女性主义运动的主题是女性争取投票权和接受高等教育的权利。第一波女性主义运动始于19世纪中期，早期的代表作家有约翰·斯图尔特·密尔和挪威的亨利克·易卜生。在易卜生的戏剧《玩偶之家》中，女性离开家庭寻求独立。总的来讲，第一波女性主义运动的浪潮大概在1880年开始，在1920年到1930年结束。最终，女性获得了投票权。

Zachary Davis: Women gained the right to vote in the U.S. in 1920 with the passage of the 19th amendment. The next big change came during the Second World War, when a lot of women in the U.S. went to work infactories and took over jobs previously held by men, who were now fighting overseas. Women who worked outside the home during the war rarely held leadership positions in the workplace, those roles were still dominated by men. But things did begin to change again in the 1960s.

扎卡里·戴维斯：1920年，美国颁布了宪法第十九条修正案，美国女性获得了投票权。接着在第二次世界大战期间，又出现了重大的变化。由于男性在海外作战，许多美国女性去工厂工作，填补男性空缺下来的岗位。不过二战期间，在外工作的女性很少在职场担任领导，当领导的仍然主要是男性。到了20世纪60年代，情况再次改变。

Toril Moi: There’s alot of liberatory forces going on in the 1960s. And women were in all these movements and they had one common experience, which is that they were always being sent to make the coffee and do the photocopying and rarely got leadership roles. And from there, the Second Women's Movement started.

托莉·莫伊：20世纪60年代出现了很多平权运动。所有这些运动中都有女性的身影，而且她们在职场都有过类似的经历，总是被派去煮咖啡、复印文件，很少担任领导。于是第二波女性主义运动应运而生。

Zachary Davis: Second-Wave Feminism lasted for about twenty years from the 1960s through the 1980s. This movement broadened the discussions from First-Wave Feminism and addressed issues of work place in equality, familial roles, sexuality, and reproductive rights. The Second Sex played a crucial rolein Second-Wave Feminism, but when it was originally published in 1949, the radical ideas were not fully accepted by all readers.

扎卡里·戴维斯：第二波女权主义从20世纪60年代持续到80年代，前后大约二十年。这次运动延伸了第一波女性主义运动的议题，探讨了职场性别不平等、女性的家庭角色、性观念与性行为、生育权。在第二波女性主义运动中，《第二性》起到了至关重要的作用。然而早在1949年这本书刚出版时，书里一些激进的观念并没有被所有读者完全接受。

Toril Moi: There was outrage. The Communists hated it because it was too individualist they thought. A lot of men said it was way too full of private sexual material because there are chapters on sexuality. Francois Mauriac, the famous Catholic novelist, said to one of Beauvoir's collaborators Les Temps Modernes, that journal. He said, well, now your employer has shown her vagina in public.

托莉·莫伊：很多人对它很恼火。共产党人讨厌它，觉得它过分宣扬个人主义。男人们也讨厌它，说里面私人的、性方面的内容太多了——确实，书里有些章节专门讲性。信奉天主教的著名小说家弗朗索瓦·莫里亚克写了封信给波伏娃创办的《摩登时代》杂志。他在信里说：你们老板堂而皇之地给大家看她的阴道。

Toril Moi: So they were shocked at the sexual explicitness, which is nothing more than discussion of the importance of virginity, sex and marriage at the time, the belief that there was such a thing as frigid women that if women couldn't have orgasms, it was their problem, nothing to do with whatever the man was up to it. And I'm talking about hetero sexual relationships.

托莉·莫伊：他们震惊于书里竟然这么直截了当地谈论性。但波伏娃探讨的无非是贞操的意义、性与婚姻观念罢了。比如，当时有所谓的“女性冷淡”的说法，人们觉得如果女性没法高潮，那是她们自己的问题，跟男人做了什么没有关系。这讨论的是异性恋之间的关系。

Toril Moi: And so it was met with out rage, but it was also a best seller and it was published in America in 1953 and created quite a lot of up roar here too. People like Mary McCarthy and Elizabeth Hardwick were very critical about it. Lorraine Hansberry, the famous African-American writer of plays like Raisin in the Sun and so on, wrotea fantastic essay on The Second Sex that was unfortunately not published before she died. But she wrote it around 1960 and she saw what Beauvoir wasdoing, possibly because Hansberry had thought about racism and could see what was going on in this text.

托莉·莫伊：它让一波人很恼火，但也非常畅销。1953年，它在美国出版，同样掀起了轩然大波。玛丽·麦卡锡、伊丽莎白·哈德威克等人也对它大肆批评。不过也有支持者。1960年，著名的美国黑人剧作家、《阳光下的葡萄干》的作者洛兰·汉斯贝里曾写过一篇很棒文章来评论《第二性》。可惜她生前这篇文章没能发表。她理解了波伏娃的作品，或许是因为她想到了种族歧视，在书中看到了类似的影子。

Toril Moi: Then we have the great writers of the second movement in America, Betty Friedan, The Feminine Mystique. She did not write The Feminist Mystique just like so. Betty Friedan was an intellectual who read The Second Sex in the 1950s and many years later acknowledged that The Second Sex was a major inspiration for a book,which I think that in The Feminine Mystique, if there are a foot note,she may mention Beauvoir, but she never says like half of this is my use of Beauvoir’s ideas. So then you have — that's 1963 with Friedan.

托莉·莫伊：后来在第二波女性主义运动中，涌现出了一些伟大的作家，如贝蒂·弗里丹，她写了《女性的奥秘》。但这本书不是自然而然地写出来的。弗里丹是一位知识分子，20世纪50年代的时候，她读过《第二性》。多年之后，她坦言《第二性》是她这本书的重要灵感来源。我不太记得了，如果《女性的奥秘》里面有脚注的话，她可能在脚注里提到过波伏娃。不过她没说这一半是引用了波伏娃的观点。这是1963年弗里丹的作品。

Toril Moi: In 1969, Kate Millette publishes Sexual Politics, also very important second-wave book. It's essentially tripping off Beauvoir's ideas. And over 800 pages, there are three foot notes to Beauvoir. Later, Millette also came out and said, Oh yeah, I of course couldn'thave written it without Beauvoir. So we may wonder why we get this idea that The Second Sex was instantly embraced by the second wave. It wasn't as simple as that.

托莉·莫伊：到了1969年，凯特·米利特发表了《性政治》。这也是第二波女性主义运动中的重要著作。它本质上也延续了波伏娃的思想。在整个八百多页的内容里，有三处脚注提到了波伏娃。后来米利特也承认说，没有波伏娃，她肯定写不出这本书。所以我们会好奇，为什么《第二性》立马就被第二波女性主义运动接受了。答案可能没有那么简单。

Toril Moi: People read it. Young women in the 60s read it and loved it. But the leadership was often more, should we say, reluctant to acknowledge Beauvoir's intellectual strengths and her pioneering status. By now, I think we do it, but there was a long period where Beauvoir was notconsidered the oretically correct that off in the 80s and 90s, 80s maybe.

托莉·莫伊：很多人读它，60年代的年轻女性们都在读，也很喜欢它。但领导层一般都不愿意承认波伏娃的思想力量与先锋地位。如今她的地位已经无可争议，但在很长一段时间里——80、90年代，准确讲是80年代，波伏娃的理论都没有被认可。

Toril Moi: But by now I think that scholars see that she, to my mind, is obviously the greatest feminist philosopher in the 20th century, bar none. But it has taken a long time to get to the point where that's even sayable. And I still don't think all feminists would agree. But then I don't expect all feminists to agree about anything ever. So that's fair enough.

托莉·莫伊：不过如今，学者们都觉得她是20世纪最伟大的女权主义哲学家，没有之一。但在很长一段时间里，人们都对她闭口不提。我仍然觉得，并不是所有的女权主义者都会同意她的观点，但我也不指望所有女权主义者能在什么事情上完全达成共识。所以，这样已经足够了。

Zachary Davis: What was the what was the world that Beauvoir sought? Did she describe a world of more equal relations?

扎卡里·戴维斯：波伏娃想要迎来的世界是什么样的？她有没有描绘一个男女关系更加平等的世界？

Toril Moi: She wanted a world in which a woman was no longer the other. Women just as much as men had access to what we have called the universal. That is that if I say to you, oh, I met this interesting philosopher yesterday, you won't automatically answer, Oh, and what did he say? You know, that's part of it. For her, a just and equal society is a society in which men and women respect each other as equally free and responsible subject, where men and women work together side by side and work and struggle. So we work together, we struggle together. We see each other as free subjects. Then we get rid of huge class distinctions and get the proper democratic system. And then we may have made progress.

托莉·莫伊：她想要迎来一个女性不再是他者的世界。女性和男性一样可以被认作是普遍的。比如，当我跟你说，我昨天遇到了一个有意思的哲学家。你脱口而出，问“他讲了什么”的时候，脑海里浮现的“他”，不再是单人旁的“他”。这就是普遍性的一个表现。在波伏娃看来，在一个公正、平等的社会里，男性与女性必然相互尊重，把彼此看作同样自由且负有责任的主体，男性和女性可以并肩共处、共同努力、共同对抗困难，一起消除阶级差异，建立合适的民主制度。到了那个时候，我们才能说，我们可能已经取得了一些进展。

Zachary Davis: Simone de Beauvoir began The Second Sex with a single question in mind: what has it meant for me to have been born a woman? Through this philosophical and personal reflection, Beauvoir was able to shine a light on the gender in equalities of society and the forces that perpetuate them. A lot has changed since thisbook was first published in 1949, and Beauvoir paved the way for a lot of that positive change.

扎卡里·戴维斯：西蒙娜·德·波伏娃写《第二性》的时候，就一直在思考身为女性对她来说意味着什么。通过哲学反思和对个人经历的回顾，波伏娃论述了社会中的性别不平等问题以及成因。自从1949年这本书首次出版以来，在性别平权方面出现了很多积极的变化，而为这些变化奠定基础的人正是波伏娃。

Toril Moi: I think that what we owe one another, feminist or not, is a proper acknowledgement of the achievements of our forebears. And I think that one thing feminists in the second wave discovered is how quickly women's work and achievements are forgotten. So each new generation of feminists seemed forever like they had to reinvent the gunpowder, as it were. They had to begin from the beginning again.

托莉·莫伊：我觉得不论我们是不是女权主义者，我们都需要铭记前辈们的成果。在第二波女性主义运动中，女权主义者发现，女性的工作和成就很快就被人遗忘。于是，每一代新的女权主义者似乎都要重新打造武器，彻底从头开始。

Toril Moi: So I do think that to write about modern feminism in ways that marginalize Simone de Beauvoir, it's not that we have to agree with everything she did because she's a historically situated subject too. What she managed to say in 1949 was astonishing. But it was 1949. That's 70 years ago. So we expect some changes to have taken place and she would be the first to agree with that. Nevertheless, we cannot write about 20th century feminism without seeing that Beauvoir laid the foundation for just about every debate we've had ever since.

托莉·莫伊：当然，我也觉得我们可以不用把所有目光都聚焦于波伏娃，可以来书写当代的女权主义议题。我们不需要同意波伏娃的每一个观点，毕竟她也有她的历史局限性。她在1949年写下的话振聋发聩，但那是1949年，已经是七十多年前了。我期待未来会出现新的变化。我相信如果波伏娃还活着，她会是第一个赞同的。不过，如果我们看不到波伏娃在上个世纪为此后的几乎所有议题奠定的基础，我们或许很难书写关于女权主义的篇章。

Zachary Davis: Writ Large is aproduction of Ximalaya. Writ Large is produced by Jack Pombriant, Liza French, and me, Zachary Davis. Script editing is by Galen Beebe. We get help from Feiran Du, Ariel Liu and Monica Zhang. Our theme song is by Ian Coss. Don’t miss an episode. Subscribe today in the Ximalaya app. Thanks for listening. See younext time.

扎卡里·戴维斯：本节目由喜马拉雅独家制作播出。感谢您的收听，我们下期再见！