【英文原声版03】Peter Bol：The Great Learning

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英文文稿+中文翻译 

Peter Bol and China

哈佛教授和中国的不解之缘

Peter Bol: When I was first learning it I studied with a prince of the last Chinese imperial dynasty, the Ching dynasty. And he said well you have to memorize this text, and I said well teacher, I’m an American. We don’t memorize much anymore. And he said no, no, it’s only because you don’t know how to memorize.

包弼德：初学《大学​》的时候，给我教课的老师是中国末代封建王朝，也就是清朝的宗室后裔。他说：“你一定要把《大学》背下来。”我说：“老师，我是美国人，在美国我们已经不怎么背诵了。”老师回复说：“不不，那是因为你没有找到正确的背诵方法。”

Peter Bol: And so he said, yo​u memorize like this: and he chanted the text. And sure enough, if you treat the text like a song to sing, so to speak, it’s easy to memorize.

包弼德：他给我示范：“你​应该这样背诵。”随后他开始像唱歌一样吟诵全文。的确，如果你像唱歌一样找准调子去背，就很容易背下来。”

Peter Bol: It goes something like this: 大学之道，在明明德，在亲民，在止于至善。知止而后有定，定而后能静，静而后能安，安而后能虑，虑而后能得。物有本末，​事有终始。知所先后，则近道矣。

包弼德：调子差不多是这​样的：大学之道，在明明德，在亲民，在止于至善。知止而后有定，定而后能静，静而后能安，安而后能虑，虑而后能得。物有本末，事有终始。知所先后，则近道矣。

Peter Bol: My name’s Peter Bol.​ I teach Chinese history at Harvard.

包弼德：我叫包弼德，在​哈佛大学教中国历史。

Zachary Davis: So, when I asked you to think about a book that changed history in significant ways, you have oriented this book. Tell us about The Great Learning and why it came to mind.

扎卡里·戴维斯：当我让您推荐一本改变历史的重要书籍时，您已经想好了要讲《大学》这本书。可以说说《大学》是一本怎样的书吗？您为什么会想讲这本书呢？

Peter Bol: Well, The Great Learning is one of what’s called the four books in the later Confucian tradition. It’s not very long. The main text is only about 205 Chinese characters, so translated it might come to about 400 or 500 words in English. And then there’s a series of chapters which elaborate on or comment on the main text.

包弼德：《大学》在后来的​儒家传统中被列为“四书”之一。全文篇幅不长，只有大概205个汉字，翻译成英文大概有四五百字。后面有一些段落是基于原文做的注疏。

Zachary Davis: Welcome to Writ Large【本课程英文版名称，为喜马拉雅官方自制】, a podcast about how books change the world. I’m Zachary Davis. In each episode, I speak to a scholar about one book that changed the course of history. In this episode, I sat down with Peter Bol to talk about The Great Learning, an ancient Chinese text that continues to shape the lives of more than a billion people.

扎卡里·戴维斯：欢迎收听：100本改变你和世界的书，在这里我们为大家讲述改变世界的书籍。我是扎卡里·戴维斯。每一集，我都会和一位世界顶尖学者探讨一本影响历史进程的书。在本集，我和哈佛大学的包弼德教授一起讨论《大学》。这篇中国古代经典一直影响着十几亿人的生活。

The Great Learning Beceome Well-Known in Song Dynasty?

《大学》原来到了宋朝才流行？

Zachary Davis: Nobody knows exactly who wrote The Great Learning, but it reflects the teachings of Confucius, and it likely first appeared in the Confucian Book of Rites around 2,000 years ago.

扎卡里·戴维斯：没有人知道《大学》的作者究竟是谁，但全文反映了孔子的思想。它首次出现，很有可能是在两千年前的《礼记》中。

Peter Bol: This text begins with a famous set of phrases. It says, 大学之道，在明明德，在亲民，在止于至善。 “The way of great learning lies in illuminating or illustrating one’s luminous virtue by being one or familiar with the people and ending up in the highest good.”

包弼德：全文开篇是一串著名​的短句：“大学之道，在明明德，在亲民，在止于至善。”意思是，所谓大学，就是需要彰显那种可以照亮世界的美德，通过和民众建立紧密的联系来实现，最终要达到的，就是处于至高的完美境界。

Peter Bol: It’s a text that’s interesting particularly because in the 11th and 12th centuries when it’s pulled out of another one of the Confucian classics called the Book of Rites—by that point the text has been around already for at least 1,000 years—and it’s pulled out and they start to focus on this text and another text or two in partic​ular and say this really is, has fundamental ideas for us today.

包弼德：《大学》很有意思的一点在于，直到十一、十二世纪，也就是中国宋代，它才被单独从儒家经典《礼记》中拎出来，此前它一直默默存在了一千多年。后来，《大​学》和另外几部儒家经典一起获得关注，蕴含了当下社会所需的基本思想。

Zachary Davis: 1,000 years had passed by the time these neo-Confucian scholars picked up the Great Learning. Chinese culture had changed in major ways, new technologies and institutions had emerged, culture had evolved, and dynasties had come and gone. So, the 11th and 12th-century neo-Confucian scholars drew new meanings from the ancient text.

扎卡里·戴维斯：《大学》诞生之后的一千年，这些新一代的儒家学者重拾这篇著作。在这一千年里，中国文化经历了多重剧变，新技术与新机构层出不穷，文化蓬勃发展，王朝不断更替。所以，到了11和12世纪的宋朝，新一代的儒家学者就从传统典籍中汲取了新的内涵。

Peter Bol: To illustrate that point that the meaning changes, in the original it’s fairly clear that the person who was being addressed was the ruler. This was a book that says to the ruler: you should show your virtue. You should act a certain way toward the common people. And you should bring about the highest good. It was about rulers and government.

包弼德：这些学者想要阐明这些新内涵。显然，最初《大学》是写给统治者看的。这篇文章旨在告诉统治者，应当以德治国，应当以某种方式对待百姓，应当推崇至善。​《大学》探讨的是统治者与政府。

Peter Bol: But as it gets interpreted in the 11th and 12th centuries, it comes to be how everybody who learns should be. And it becomes a text for everyone that says everyone has the rig​ht to participate, at least at an intellectual level, in the process of governing.

包弼德：但在宋代儒学家的阐释下，它的内涵得以延伸，《大学》的主旨变成了告诉每一个知识分子他们应该成为什么样的人。它也开始适用于每个人。也就是说，每个人都有参与治理国家的权利，至少每个知识分子都有权利这样。

Zachary Davis: So it sounds like in some ways it’s collapsing the distinction between upper and lower classes. Their aspirations.

扎卡里·戴维斯：从某种程度上讲，这似乎弥合了上层阶级与下层阶级的差距，这也是他们的理想。

Peter Bol: Absolutely. Or between, what we might say, between people who have formal political power and people who are engaged in learning and culture but don’t have formal politi​cal positions.

包弼德：没错。或者说弥合的是​有实际权力的人和参与了文化建设但没有实权的人，这两类群体之间的差距。

Zachary Davis: These interpreters knew what they were doing. They wanted to collapse the distinctions between those with formal political power and those without, and to draw a straight line from the student to the governmental leaders. Learning, they argued, was what gave a person power.

扎卡里·戴维斯：这些儒学家知道他们在做什么。他们想打破这两类群体之间的界限，在儒学生与政府官员之间搭建一座桥梁。他们认为学习可以赋予人们力量。

The Main Points of the Great Learning

《大学》的核心要义

Zachary Davis: The text makes three main points. First, you have to have some virtue that you let others see. Second, you have to have a relationship with the people. The 11th and 12th century interpreters understood that to mean that you had to change or transform the people.

扎卡里·戴维斯：《大学》提出了三点主要的宗旨。第一点是“在明明德”，也就是你要具备并弘扬品德。第二点是“在亲民”，意思是要和民众建立紧密的关系；不过宋代儒学家认为“亲民”的意思是改造和教化民众。

Peter Bol: And the third you have to have a sense of your ultimate goal, the highest goal, whatever that’s going to mean. Then it goes on and it says it’s only if you know you​r goal, the highest good, it’s only if you know where you’re going to stop that you actually can start to really stabilize your mind and focus.

包弼德：第三点是“止于至善”，意思是说，你需要有一个终极目标，无论这个目标意味着什么。文章接着说，只有当你知道你的终极目标、那种最高境界的完美，只​要你知道你要坚持不懈地走到哪一步，你才会平心静气、聚精会神。

Peter Bol: And it’s only then that you can go through a process that leads to understanding. In some sense, what this text is saying is there’s an order to things, there are things that are ​more fundamental that you have to do first that have consequences later. Well, what are those? And that’s, the core of the text, the most important part, are called the eight steps.

包弼德：也只有这样，你才会真​正地学习和理解。从某种角度看，《大学》阐述的是事物皆有秩序，有的事情更根本，需要先去完成，才会在之后有结果。这些更根本的事情是什么呢？这就是《大学》最核心、最重要的内容，我们称之为“八条目”。

Zachary Davis: These eight steps layout the order of events, starting with the highest good. If someone’s aim is to manifest their virtue, they have to first organize their state. If they want to organize their state, they have to organize their family.

扎卡里·戴维斯：“八条目”列出了事情的秩序，从至善开始。（“八条目”的内容是：格物，致知，诚意，正心，修身，齐家，治国，平天下。）如果一个人的目标是想要践行道德原则，他就需要治理国政；如果需要治理国政，那他就要管理好自己的家庭。

Zachary Davis: But to organize their family, they have to cultivate themselves. To cultivate themselves, they have to make their heart and mind correct. To make their heart and mind correct, they have to make their will sincere. If they want to make their will sincere, they have to first attain knowledge. And attaining knowledge depended on a phrase that the neo-Confucian interpreters translated as investigating things.

扎卡里·戴维斯：而在管理好自己的家庭前，他必须要修身养性。而修身养性的前提是内心端正，这又需要充满诚意。那么如何做到正心诚意呢？他必须获得知识。而获得知识的起点，正是宋代儒学家所说的“格物”。

Peter Bol: So that vision, then, is a vision that connects the cultivation of the self with social responsibility, with political responsibility, and says “all these things are connected.”​

包弼德：所以说这种愿景将培养个​人修养与社会责任、政治抱负联系起来，告诉我们这些都是相通的。

Zachary Davis: Individuals hold great power—in this way, the focus is on the individual. But the purpose of self-cultivation goes beyond the individual. It’s not self-cultivation for its own sake.

扎卡里·戴维斯：《大学》这本书认为，个体拥有强大的力量，这样一来，人们需要关注的目的就是个人了。但培养个体修为的目标远不止于此，“修身”并不是为自己而修。

The Vision of the Great Learning

《大学》中的理想境界

Peter Bol: Sometimes in my generation, when you start to get the appearance of gurus and self-help seminars and things like that, it was all about me and feeling good about m​yself.

包弼德：我们这代人往往过度​强调自我。比如当你去参加大师会、自助研讨会之类的活动时，你会发现会上铺天盖地的都是在讲自己如何如何，对自己如何满意。

Peter Bol: The Great Learning isn’t about that. The Great Learning says no, no. you are learning in order to understand something, and understanding it leads you to a way of beha​ving and of acting on others in family and in government and ultimately bringing peace to the world. These things should be connected. Does everyone connect them? No. does everyone necessarily end up serving in government? No. but everyone can cultivate themselves.

包弼德：而《大学》则不一样。它告诉我们，你学习是为了领悟一些事物，从而学会用正确的方式在家庭乃至朝堂上与人相处，最终确保天下太平。所有这些都是相联​系的。但每个人都与这些相关吗？不一定。每个人都会有一官半职吗？也不一定。但确实每个人都可以做到“修身”。

Peter Bol: As the final line goes: 自​天子以至于庶人，壹是皆以修身为本。 “From the son of heaven down to the common person, everyone takes the cultivation of the self as the fundamental.” And that’s what this great learning is about.

包弼德：文章在后面还提到：“自​天子以至于庶人，壹是皆以修身为本。”也就是说，上自天子，下至平民，一切都要以修身为做人处事的根本。这也是《大学》这本书要讲的东西。

Zachary Davis: In other words, if every person, from the common man to the leaders in government, commits to education, then the city, the country, and the world will be in harmony.

扎卡里·戴维斯：换句话说，如果每个人，不论是平民还是政府官员，都努力提升自己的修为，那么整个城市、整个国家乃至整个世界都会一派和谐。

How the Great Learning Affected Chinese Rulers

《大学》如何影响中国的统治阶层

Peter Bol: Now, the reality is that no Chinese dynasty lasted for more than 250, 300 years. But there certainly was a conviction that if people and rulers would devote themselves ​to learning, that they could make it work.

包弼德：其实，中国历史上没有哪个王朝的统治能超过300年，超过250年的都很少。但人们相信。如果平民和统治者都勤勉学习，一定会巩固甚至延长王朝的寿命。​

Zachary Davis: This approach to governing was different than most.

扎卡里·戴维斯：这种政府管理方式与同时期的多数国家截然不同。

Peter Bol: You know, China was unique in world history from the 11th century, actually late 10th century on, its governing elite was composed of people who were learned. There’s an exception to that, and the exception to that is under the Mongols because many of the Mongols were illiterate, and yet they had to employ literate people to govern.

包弼德：要知道，从10世纪末开始，中国的政府精英都是知识分子，这点在世界历史上是独一无二的。不过这其中有个朝代例外，那就是蒙古人统治时期的元朝，因为蒙​古人大多不识字。不过他们还是需要任命一些文化人来管理国家。

Peter Bol: But when the Jesuit missionary Matteo Ricci goes to China in the 16th century, he writes in his account of the country he’s in, he says, you know, this is a country where philosophers are kings. Now, who said philosophers are kings? Plato. That’s the perfect world. Right? He doesn’t see military elites, he doesn’t see feuda​l lords, he sees literati. And then he backtracks and he says well, of course the emperor is not a philosopher, but he’s surrounded by philosophers, he’s surrounded by people who learn.

包弼德：16世纪，耶稣会传教士利玛窦来到中国时，曾这样描述中国：“这是一个哲学家为王的国度。”而谁说过哲学家为王呢？柏拉图在《理想国》中说过。哲学家为王是个理想的世界。利玛窦注意到的不是军事力量、不是封建君王，而是士大夫们。他感慨，虽然君王自己不是哲学家，但他身边围绕着一群​哲学家，围绕着一群知识分子。

Peter Bol: And that is one of the great achievements of Chinese civilization: to believe that the best kind of government is a government which is led by people who are there by virtue of their merit, and their merit is measured by their learning.

包弼德：中华文明的伟大成就之一​，就是相信最好的政府需要由德才兼备的人领导，而他们的才华是由他们的学习情况来衡量的。

How the Great Learning Changed China

《大学》如何深刻地改变了中国

Zachary Davis: Let’s talk a little bit more about its enduring influence. How did this book change the world?

扎卡里·戴维斯：我们再来谈谈《大学》对后世的影响吧。它是如何改变世界的呢？

Peter Bol: It changes the people that it gives us a China that’s unified. It gives us a China that’s powerful and a China that believes that education makes the difference. Educati​on is the key to your future as an individual but also to the future of a country.

包弼德：他改变了人们的观念，给​我们呈现了一个统一、强盛的的中国，一个让人们相信教育能够发挥作用的中国。教育不仅能改变个人的命运，还能影响整个国家未来的发展。

Zachary Davis: This attitude still resonates today, despite the anti-intellectualism of the mid- 20th century Cultural Revolution.

扎卡里·戴维斯：尽管20世纪中期文化大革命期间，对知识、教育没那么看重，但如今人们都认可教育为本的观点。

Peter Bol: China is a country that has multiplied the number of college students by at least ten times in the last twenty years. And so the number of learned people in China, one could say​, is approaching the size of the American population.

包弼德：过去20年里，中国的大学生​数量增长了至少十倍。如今，中国有文化的人口数量已经差不多相当于整个美国的人口数量。

How the Great Learning Shaped Chinese People's Personality

《大学》如何塑造了中国人的性格

Zachary Davis: Understanding the legacy of The Great Learning can help to upend certain assumptions that people from America and China have about each other and themselves. To illustrate these assumptions, Professor Bol tells a story.

扎卡里·戴维斯：了解了《大学》的这些影响之后，中国人和美国人都更有可能摒弃对自己、对彼此的某些刻板印象。说到这些刻板印象，包弼德教授讲了个小故事。

Peter Bol: I was in China and I was with a bunch of my graduate students and Chinese colleagues with their students, and we were doing some research on local society and visiting old villages. And we got stuck on the road. And I said to the driver, I said, well why don’t we get out? Lighten the load, we all get off, and we p​ush the bus. And he said no that won’t work. I said shouldn’t we try? He said no, no, that won’t work.

包弼德：当时我在中国，和一群我的研究生、我的中国同事还有那些同事的学生一起，在基层做社会调查，参观了一些古镇。途中，我们的车卡在坑里了。我对司机说：“咱​们为什么不下去推车呢？把行李卸下来，所有人都下去推车。”他说这不管用。我说：“难道不试试吗？”“没用的，”司机回复道。

Peter Bol: And so after another ten minutes of just sitting there, I said why would not try this, in English and in Chinese, I said, this is the problem, we’re going to all get off the bus, ​and we’re going to push it. And all the American students immediately got up off the bus. And all the Chinese students and my Chinese colleagues just sat there, even though I had said this in Chinese too. And I heard one of the Chinese colleagues say to another, look at those Americans—their leader says gives them one command and off they go. They just obey like that.

包弼德：我们在车里又坐了十分钟，我又说为什么不试试。我用中文和英文各说了一遍，我说这是个问题，我们全部人需要下车，然后去推车。所有的美国学生立刻下了车，所有的中国学生和我的中国同事只是坐在那儿，即便我刚刚也用中文说了一遍。我听到有个中国同事对另一个人说：“看看那些美国人​，领导一声令下，他们就全下去了。他们好守规矩。”

Peter Bol: And then I had to go row by row and explain to each row of people, what we were doing and why and ask them if they would be so kind as to get off the bus and help. And then we pushed it and got out of the rut. The next day, I see my friend who had said this—look at those Americans and how they behave—and I said to him​, what is it you admire about America? Ah, he said. What I admire about America is you have no individuality. You all obey rules all the time. You’re all alike. We Chinese, we’re too individualist. We need to learn more from you. We need to be more like you and get rid of some of our individuality and become more collective.

包弼德：然后我不得不一排排地过去解释，我们现在在干嘛，为什么要这么做，拜托他们下车帮忙。最后我们把车推出了坑。第二天，我碰见昨天说话的那个中国同事，就问他，你佩服美国哪一点呢？他说：“我佩服的是你们不各做各的，你们所有人所有时候都会遵守规则，都整齐划一。我们中国人就太自我了，需要向你们学习，需要像你们这样，不要各自为阵，要多一点集体意识。”

Peter Bol: Now, I thought that was a really, really interesting comment to make because what he saw and what we saw…not always the same. But if you think about it, we live in a society where we have rules, and they’re so much a part of our lives we don’t pay attention to them. We accept them all the time. China is much more of a ne​gotiated place. Everybody has to agree with somebody else. You have to negotiate everything.

包弼德：我现在觉得这个评价很有意思。因为他看到的跟我们看到的并不总是相同。不过设想一下，我们生活在一个讲规则的社会里，规则无处不在，以至于我们都没有注意到到处都有规则这一点，但其实我们时时刻刻都在接受这些规则。而中国更注重协调和商量，每个人都需要征求他人的意见，各种事情​你都要商量着来。

Peter Bol: And in some ways, The Great Learning fits that too because The Great Learning says, no, you individual must have your understanding of things. You must respond to the world. You must bring your understanding of what’s conducive to unity. But it’s still concerned with unity—it’s still an ideal. And so my friend who saw Americans as admirable because they were so collectivist and so uniform, and so lacking in individuality, was in some sense articulating this desire for ​unity that we find at the basis of The Great Learning.

包弼德：在某些方面，这种注重协商和《大学》这本书也很相符，因为文章告诉我们个人也需要去领悟事情，需要回应世界，要明白什么对整体来说最有益。这关乎的还是整体的和谐，仍然是一套治国理想。所以我的那位中国同事才会觉得美国人值得钦佩，因为他们集体意识很强，整齐统一，不各自为阵。这​在某种程度上体现了他对整体和谐的追求，而这也是我们在《大学》中看到的内在追求。

Zachary Davis: Writ Large 【Writ Large为喜马拉雅独家自制《哈佛通识课》的英文版名称】 is an exclusive production of Ximalaya. Writ Large is produced by Galen Beebe and me, Zachary Davis, with help from Feiran Du, Ariel Liu, Wendy Wu, and Monica Zhang. Music is by Blue Dot Sessions. Don’t miss an episode, subscribe today in the Ximalaya app. Thanks for listening!

扎卡里·戴维斯：本节目由喜马拉雅独家制作播出。感谢您的收听，我们下期再见！