【英文翻译版62】凯瑟琳娜·沃尔克：《论友谊》

英文文稿+中文翻译 

Zachary Davis: I remember when I first signed up for Facebook. It was around 2005, and I was a freshman at Brigham Young University. At first, I became “Facebook friends” with my 5-10 actual, real friends, people I shared meals with, went to movies with, confided in. But pretty soon, I was friending lots of people. The guy who helped me out in math class, a cute girl I met once in the library, my second cousin.

扎卡里·戴维斯：我记得我第一次注册脸书是在2005年左右。那时我还是杨百翰大学的大一新生。一开始，我在脸书上加了五到十个好友。这些人都是我的线下好友，我们一起吃饭、看电影、倾吐心事。很快，我在脸书上加了很多好友，比如数学课上帮过我的哥儿、在图书馆遇到的一个可爱姑娘、我的远房亲戚。

Zachary Davis: It was exciting. I had so many friends. But pretty soon, the timeline got bad. So many updates from people I barely knew. So many bad political opinions! And so many food and baby photos! Too many friends! I started to think maybe these 3,000 people on Facebook are not actually friends.

扎卡里·戴维斯：我好兴奋——我有这么多朋友！但很快，时间线的界面就变得一团糟。很多不认识的人更了一大堆帖子。好多乱七八糟的政治见解！好多食物照片、小婴儿的照片！好友太多了！于是我开始思考，或许脸书上这三千个人并不是真正的朋友。

Katharina Volk: The use of friendship for relationships on social media like Facebook is, of course, the prime exhibit has kind of maybe spawned more of an interest in sort of asking, you know, what is friendship, actually?

凯瑟琳娜·沃尔克：我们在脸书等社交媒体上加好友来发展人际关系，这引发了我们的兴趣，让我们不由地发问：到底什么是友谊？

Katharina Volk: So my name is Katharina Volk and I'm a professor of classics at Columbia University. I specialize in Latin literature and Roman culture.

凯瑟琳娜·沃尔克：我叫凯瑟琳娜·沃尔克，是哥伦比亚大学的古希腊罗马文化研究教授。我的研究领域是拉丁语文学和罗马文化。

Zachary Davis: Over 2,000 years ago, ancient Roman statesman and philosopher Marcus Tullius Cicero asked this same question. In his philosophical dialogue On Friendship, Cicero unpacks what it means to be a friend.

扎卡里·戴维斯：两千多年前，古罗马政治家、哲学家马尔库斯·图利乌斯·西塞罗提出了同样的问题。在哲学对话录《论友谊》中，西塞罗阐述了什么是朋友。

Katharina Volk: I feel like in recent decades there has been a sort of revival of interest, well, certainly in Cicero, but also in the topic of friendship. I understand that there's now something called friendship studies. I mean, this, of course, like everything studies. But, you know, you can now, you know, by like readers of On Friendship etc., which will feature this as one of the private exhibits.

凯瑟琳娜·沃尔克：我感觉这几十年来，人们重燃起对西塞罗、当然还有友谊这个话题的兴趣。我也很理解当下对万事万物都可以研究。友谊学不过是其中一种研究，但像《论友谊》的读者们一样，我们可以把这本书看作是友谊学中一种思想的阐述。

Zachary Davis: Welcome to Writ Large, a podcast about how books change the world. I’m Zachary Davis. In each episode, I talk with one of the world’s leading scholars about one book that changed the course of history. For this episode, I sat down with Professor Katharina Volk to discuss Cicero’s On Friendship.

扎卡里·戴维斯：欢迎收听：100本改变你和世界的书，在这里我们为大家讲述改变世界的书籍。我是扎卡里·戴维斯。每一集，我都会和一位世界顶尖学者探讨一本影响历史进程的书。在本集，我和凯瑟琳娜·沃尔克教授一起讨论西塞罗的《论友谊》。

Zachary Davis: Cicero lived from 106 to 43 B.C.E. He was born during the late Roman Republic. In the century before, Rome won a series of wars that gave them control over much of the Mediterranean region. Cicero grew up on the outskirts of Rome. Although he was somewhat isolated from the city, his father had good connections to the Roman government.

扎卡里·戴维斯：西塞罗生活在公元前106年至公元前43年。他出生于罗马共和国晚期。一个世纪之前，罗马赢得了一系列战争，控制了地中海大部分地区。西塞罗在罗马郊区长大。尽管他们家不住在城里，但他的父亲与罗马政府关系密切。

Katharina Volk: Cicero was not a member, really, of the Roman urban elite. He came from a little town called Arpinum where his family, you know, was very well placed and they were sort of local leaders. But he was a so-called new man at Rome, which meant that no one in his family had ever held public office or had been a member of the Senate at Rome.

凯瑟琳娜·沃尔克：西塞罗家并不是罗马城的精英阶层。他出生于一个叫“阿尔皮诺”的小镇。他们家条件非常好，很多人都是当地领导。但他们家没有人在罗马城里担任公职，也没有人在元老院任职，所以在罗马城里，西塞罗只是所谓“新人”。

Zachary Davis: Still, Cicero wanted to go into politics. At the time there was something called the Cursus Honorum. It was a series of public offices that would eventually lead to a seat in the senate. It began with ten years of military duty. Cicero began the Cursus Honorum, but he only lasted two years in the army. After he left, he looked for another path. He became a lawyer and started climbing the political ladder.

扎卡里·戴维斯：尽管这样，西塞罗还是想步入政坛。当时政坛有一套名为“荣耀之路”的晋升体系。体系中包括了一系列公职，终点是元老院；起点是十年的兵役。西塞罗开始了他的晋升之路，但他在军队服役两年之后就离开了，走上了另一条路。他成为了一名律师，开始踏上仕途。

Katharina Volk: And so he managed to basically, you know, break into the political scene at Rome. He was elected to all the offices. He entered the Senate. He became a consul.

凯瑟琳娜·沃尔克：他闯入了罗马的政治舞台，获选出任各大公职。他进入了元老院，成为了执政官。

Zachary Davis: The consul of Rome was the highest elected political office in the Roman Republic and the final position in the Cursus Honorum. Every year, two consuls were elected to serve a one-year term. They were in charge of foreign affairs, the army, and the senate.

扎卡里·戴维斯：执政官是罗马共和国选举产生的最高政治领袖，也是荣耀之路中的最高一级。每年罗马都会选出两位执政官，负责外交、军事和元老院的事务，任期为一年。

Zachary Davis: After his term as consul, Cicero was approached by the Roman general and statesman Julius Caesar. Caesar and fellow politicians Gnaeus Pompeius Magnus, known as Pompey, and Marcus Licinius Crassus, known as Crassus, were constructing a secret alliance. They didn’t like the checks and balances of the Roman Republic—they wanted to be in power indefinitely. They asked Cicero to join their alliance, but he refused.

扎卡里·戴维斯：西塞罗任期结束后，罗马将领兼政治家尤利乌斯·凯撒想要拉拢他。凯撒和同僚格涅乌斯·庞培正在秘密结盟。他们不喜欢共和国的权力制衡制度，想要永久掌权。他们邀请西塞罗加入他们的联盟，西塞罗拒绝了。

Zachary Davis: They went along without Cicero and formed what is now known as the first triumvirate. Because they were able to undermine the senate, this secret alliance led to the fall of the Roman Republic and the rise of the Roman Empire. One year after the first triumvirate took control, Caesar left for his provinces and another politician filled his role. That politician didn’t like Cicero and got him kicked out of the city.

扎卡里·戴维斯：他们抛开西塞罗，组成了“前三头同盟”。同盟削弱了元老院的权力，推动了罗马共和国的瓦解和罗马帝国的诞生。同盟掌权一年后，凯撒赴行省任职，另一个政治家接替了凯撒的职务。这个政治家不喜欢西塞罗，把他驱逐出了罗马城。

Katharina Volk: Cicero was actually exiled for a year. Then he came back, but he was sort of politically sidelined, and then partly out of frustration with the way politics were going at Rome, he really threw himself into writing philosophy, political philosophy, but also philosophy about all sorts of topics, including this work On Friendship. And that was going to be very important in the later history of Western thought.

凯瑟琳娜·沃尔克：西塞罗实际上被放逐了一年。一年后，他回来了，但在政坛仍然处于边缘。他对罗马的政治现状非常沮丧，转而著书立说，撰写哲学、政治哲学等各方面的著作，其中就包括这篇《论友谊》。这篇作品在后来的西方思想史上举足轻重。

Zachary Davis: When Cicero returned to Rome after his year in exile, Rome was in the middle of a civil war. The triumvirate had fractured, and Caesar was battling with his old ally Pompey.

扎卡里·戴维斯：西塞罗被放逐一年后回到了罗马。此时罗马正处于内战之中。前三头同盟已经瓦解，凯撒正在和老盟友庞培对抗。

Katharina Volk: Cicero joined Pompey, who was Caesar's adversary, but who was defeated. Then Cicero was pardoned by Caesar and returned to Rome. But this was not a very sort of, not a very comfortable position to be in. When Caesar was assassinated on The Ides of March 44 B.C.E., Cicero was very excited about that. And he was friends with Brutus and Cassius and others of the assassins. And he was hoping that Rome would return to, you know, the accustomed Republican system and basically rule by the Senate.

凯瑟琳娜·沃尔克：西塞罗支持凯撒的对手庞培，但庞培不久被击败。之后西塞罗被凯撒赦免，返回了罗马。但他面临的可不是什么舒服的处境。公元前44年3月15日，凯撒被布鲁图斯、卡西乌斯等人刺杀。西塞罗与这些刺客是好友。他希望重振往日的共和制度，恢复元老院的权力。

Katharina Volk: But in fact, sort of Rome, you know, deteriorated further, descended into chaos. And when the so-called second triumvirate was formed between Octavian, that's the future Augustus and Mark Antony and a man called Lepidus, Cicero was proscribed. That means a price was put on his head and he was assassinated in late 43 B.C.E..

凯瑟琳娜·沃尔克：然而实际上，此举让罗马政局态势进一步恶化，陷入混乱之中。之后，屋大维（后来被尊称为“奥古都斯”）和雷必达等人组建了“后三头同盟”，西塞罗被列为他们的敌人，危在旦夕。公元前43年年末，西塞罗被暗杀。

Zachary Davis: What was the speech-making culture and what accounts for his powerful abilities?

扎卡里·戴维斯：当时的演讲文化是怎样的？为什么西塞罗的演讲能力这么出众？

Katharina Volk: Well, we have to sort of consider that that Rome was largely an oral society of it. There was literature, there was some circulation of texts, but of course, they had to be copied by hand. There was no media really. There were obviously no newspapers or, you know, any kind of other medium. So public communication was very oral and so speaking was incredibly important.

凯瑟琳娜·沃尔克：不得不说，罗马社会很大程度上是一个口头交流的社会。当时也有一些书面文本的流传，但都是手抄本。当时没有媒体，显然没有报纸，也没有其他媒介。公共交流大多是口头的方式，于是演讲变得至关重要。

Katharina Volk: So members of the elite, as Cicero was, had to speak, if they were in the Senate, you know, they had to speak in the Senate or they had to address the people. And they also typically appeared in court. And so there they had to speak. And so being able to speak well was really sort of considered an important part of a person's education and even of a person's character. So they really had this idea that the speech is the man and if you were a poor speaker, this, you know, not only where you're probably not going to be terribly successful in court or in politics, but it could also reflect really poorly on your character.

凯瑟琳娜·沃尔克：西塞罗这些精英分子必须公开演讲。如果他们是元老院的成员，就必须在元老院发言，或是对公众演讲。他们往往还会出庭。所以他们不得不讲话。这样一来，人们觉得，好的演讲能力代表着一个人的受教育情况、乃至他的品行。他们觉得，如果你演讲得很差，那么在法庭上或是在政治上，你很难大获成功，甚至这还说明你品行不怎么样。

Zachary Davis: Politicians and lawyers spent many years perfecting their speaking skills. Young orators often had professional coaches and trained under established speakers.

扎卡里·戴维斯：政客和律师花很多年磨炼他们的演讲技巧。年轻的演说家常常有专业教练，由已经成名的演讲者所培训。

Katharina Volk: And they really put a lot of effort into this. For example, Cicero, after a few early years of already being quite successful in the courtroom, realized that he was actually ruining his speech because, of course, they were speaking without amplification. So they had to speak, you know, fairly loudly.

凯瑟琳娜·沃尔克：他们确实为此付出了很多努力。比如，西塞罗早期在庭审辩护中屡屡获胜，但几年后他意识到自己的演讲有缺陷，说话的音量没有放大，必须得大声讲话。

Katharina Volk: But you could really, I mean, just like actors or singers today have to be really careful with their voice. So same then. And so Cicero actually took some time out and traveled to Greece and studied with some orators there and was sort of trying to find a way and apparently succeeded in speaking without, you know, ruining his voice. So they put a lot of effort into this.

凯瑟琳娜·沃尔克：就像如今的演员或歌手一样，他们也得非常关注自己的声音。为此，西塞罗花了一些时间去希腊游历，向那里的一些演说家学习，想要找到一种方法，既能让演讲完美，又可以不破坏声线。他们在这方面投入了很多精力。

Zachary Davis: What was the context of philosophy at the time? What were the other subjects he was treating before we get more specifically into friendship?

扎卡里·戴维斯：当时的哲学环境如何？在进一步谈《论友谊》之前，我们先来聊聊他还谈论了哪些话题。

Katharina Volk: Philosophy, of course, was a Greek invention or this type of Western philosophy, at least. And the Romans generally sort of base their own culture very self-conscious on the culture of the Greeks, which was also not just sort of imitation, but which was also sort of a little bit, you know, a form of competition. So they wanted to, you know, take whatever they could get from Greek culture. But then ultimately they wanted to do it as well, or if possibly better.

凯瑟琳娜·沃尔克：哲学，或者说西方哲学起源于古希腊。古罗马人往往有意地在古希腊文化的基础上搭建起自己的文化。这不仅仅是某种形式的模仿，还有点像某种形式的竞争。他们想汲取古希腊文化的一切，建立起同样灿烂的、甚至更为优秀的文化。

Zachary Davis: After Rome conquered Greece in the second century B.C.E., Romans were exposed to a lot of Greek philosophy. It was common practice for Romans to go to Greece to study, and Greek philosophers often traveled to Rome, bringing their philosophies with them, including the ideas of Plato, Aristotle, Epicurus, and the Stoics.

扎卡里·戴维斯：公元前2世纪，罗马征服了希腊。之后，罗马人接触了很多希腊哲学。罗马人普遍会去希腊学习，希腊哲学家也经常去罗马旅行。他们把柏拉图、亚里士多德、伊壁鸠鲁、斯多葛学派等哲学思想带到了罗马。

Katharina Volk: So by the time Cicero is writing, there is really a lot of, you know, philosophical learning among the elite at Rome. But the writing of philosophy in Latin has only just begun. So there are a few precursors, but it really starts in the 50s B.C.E., on the one hand with Lucretius’s famous poem about epicurean philosophy and with Cicero in the 50s writing about political philosophy. So that’s his well-known De re publica, On the Commonwealth, which to some extent is modeled on Plato's Republic, as we call it, though it's also very different.

凯瑟琳娜·沃尔克：西塞罗写《论友谊》的时候，哲学学习在罗马精英阶层非常兴盛，但是拉丁语的哲学写作才刚刚开始。公元前50年代以前，只有少数几个先驱开始用拉丁语写作。到了公元前50年代，卢克莱修写诗来阐述伊壁鸠鲁哲学，西塞罗也在这个时期写出了政治哲学作品。西塞罗写过一篇有名的文章，叫《论共和国》。这篇文章从某种程度上看模仿了柏拉图的《理想国》，不过二者还是有很大差异。

Zachary Davis: A few years later, Cicero began a series of philosophical writings on a wide range of topics.

扎卡里·戴维斯：几年后，西塞罗开始写一系列主题广泛的哲学作品。

Katharina Volk: And there he clearly sets out to write a kind of philosophical encyclopedia, i.e. treat all sorts of subfields of philosophy in an effort to bring Greek philosophy to Rome, to his fellow Romans, to educate them in philosophy, maybe send them a philosophical message in this time of political crisis, but also, you know, as being this incredibly self-confident, ambitious, you know, master of Roman, of the Latin language and of Roman literature to create a corpus of Latin philosophical writing.

凯瑟琳娜·沃尔克：他显然在着手编写一套哲学百科全书，阐述哲学的各个子领域，从而将希腊哲学带到罗马，带给罗马同胞，对他们进行哲学教育，在这个政治危机频现的年代带给他们哲学知识。同时，身为罗马城里的拉丁语和罗马文化大师，西塞罗怀着强烈的信心和热情，想要创作出拉丁语哲学文集。

Katharina Volk: And he writes about everything. He writes about ethics. He writes about epistemology. He writes about not so much natural philosophy, but about the gods and divination. And then he writes a number of sort of specialist ethical treatises. He writes one generally on duties, one on old age, and then this one On Friendship.

凯瑟琳娜·沃尔克：他写了所有主题，包括道德、认识论。他没有写太多自然哲学，而是写了更多关于神和占卜的内容。他还为许多个别的伦理问题写下了自己的分析。他写了《论责任》、《论老年》，还有这篇《论友谊》。

Zachary Davis: The text is arranged as a dialogue between a Roman statesman and his two sons-in-law. The statesman’s close friend has just passed away and his sons-in-law stop by to see how he was doing. They ask the statesman what he thinks about friendship.

扎卡里·戴维斯：《论友谊》是一位罗马政治家和两个女婿之间的对话录。政治家的密友刚刚去世，女婿们过来探望他，看看他过得怎么样。他们问起了政治家对友谊的看法。

Katharina Volk: So he gives a speech about friendship, which is partly based on all the Greek philosophy on friendship, especially Aristotle, but it's also his own, specifically Roman take on it. And he does say that he thinks friendship is basically the best thing a human being can have in life. And he says that his own friendship with Scipio was the best thing that happened to him. And now that Scipio his is dead, it's really the memory of this friendship that still keeps him going.

凯瑟琳娜·沃尔克：他发表一番关于友谊的演讲，内容基于所有关于友谊的希腊哲学观点，尤其是亚里士多德的观点，但这也是他自己的观点，更是罗马人的观点。他说，他认为友谊可谓是人类一生中可以拥有的最美好的东西。他与史奇皮欧的友谊是他经历过的最美好的事情。现在史奇皮欧死了，但对这段友谊的记忆鼓舞着他继续前进。

Katharina Volk: But then he has a very elevated view of friendship, which partly goes back to Aristotle, which says that real friendship can only be between good people. You have to have virtue to be a good friend. So, bad people cannot really be friends. And then he discusses various aspects of this.

凯瑟琳娜·沃尔克：他把友谊看得非常崇高，这在一定程度上是受亚里斯多德的影响。亚里士多德说，真正的友谊只出现在高尚的人之间。你必须有美德，才能和别人成为好朋友。坏人不可能真正成为朋友。接着，他论述了这个观点的各个方面。

Katharina Volk: And then it sort of turns out that even though, you know, friendship is this great thing, it's not unproblematic. And there are all sorts of problems with friendship. Now, he does argue that it is natural for human beings to want to be friends and that it arises out of affection. I mean, he really uses the word love, the Latin “amor” is actually related to “amicitiae”, the word for friendship. So basically, if you, you know, see another person who has all these wonderful qualities that the Romans would call “virtue”, you just can't help loving them.

凯瑟琳娜·沃尔克：尽管友谊很伟大，但这也并非没有问题。友谊有各种各样的问题。他认为，人类想交朋友是很自然的事情，这种念头源于爱。他确实用了“爱”这个词。拉丁语的“爱”和“友谊”的确是相关的。所以，当你看到别人有罗马人所说的“美德”，你就情不自禁地爱上了他们。

Katharina Volk: Maybe you're just going to feel this affection. And if this affection arises between two people, then they become friends. And it doesn't have to do with what you want to get out of friendship. So it's not a utilitarian thing. It's not what we want to get out of the friend. It's not about what the friend can do for us, but it is really about affection and it's a natural thing. We just want to have that. And human beings are social animals and a life, even if we could have all the good things in life and we didn't have other people and we didn't have friends, life would not be worth living.

凯瑟琳娜·沃尔克：也许你会爱上对方。如果两个人都涌起这股情感，那么他们就会成为朋友。而且这无关乎想要从友谊中获得什么，它不是功利主义的事情，不是想要从朋友那儿求得什么。它无关乎朋友可以为我们做什么，仅仅关乎于爱慕之情，仅仅是自然而然的事情。我们只是想要获得友谊。人是社交动物，需要社交生活。即使我们生活中有所有美好的事情，但我们没有其他人在身边、没有朋友，那样的生活也不值得过。

Zachary Davis: It seems like one distinguishing feature of Cicero's writing is to try to suggest that, you know, friendship is not just instrumental, as you say, it's not just to sort of, it's not transactional. There's some other, you know, virtue related good involved.

扎卡里·戴维斯：西塞罗的这篇文章似乎有个很明显的特点。他总是想要指出，友谊不仅是功利性的，就像您所说，友谊不仅仅是交易，它还涉及一些与美德相关的高尚的东西。

Katharina Volk: That's correct. So in the ancient world, both in Greece and in Rome, friendship is extremely important. So people, you know, talk about friendship a lot. They really rely on their friends. But it's also clear that in some ways, friendship has maybe not necessarily a transactional character always. But there is certainly a more practical aspect to friendship. I mean, obviously, you know, there can be all sorts of practical aspects to friends today. You know, if you have friends who can get you a job of, friends will help you out, if you have any problems.

凯瑟琳娜·沃尔克：没错。在古代，无论在希腊还是在罗马，友谊都非常重要。所以人们经常谈论友谊。他们真的很需要朋友。虽然说，在某些方面，友谊并不一定总是交易性的，但友谊也肯定有更实际的一面。我是说，显然“朋友”这个词在当下有着各种实际层面的意义，比如朋友可以帮你找到一份工作，可以在你遇到困难的时候助你一臂之力。

Katharina Volk: But we have to remember that in these kinds of societies, there was far less of a kind of institutional structure for all sorts of human needs, like, for example, financial or legal or, you know, if you're a sick or if you running into any kind of problems or if you know you are in politics. So, you know, if you needed to go to court, you would ask a friend, you know, if you had such friends, but if you were in the Roman elite, you did , you know, represent you in court. If you needed to borrow money, I mean, there were no banks. You had to basically borrow from your friend, you know.

凯瑟琳娜·沃尔克：但我们必须记住，在古罗马这样的社会中，制度结构不足以满足人们的所有需求。比如，你可能会遇到金融或法律问题，可能会生病，可能会遇到任何类型的问题，也可能发现自己陷入政治纷争之中。如果你有熟悉法律的朋友，当你需要上法庭的时候，你会咨询朋友。如果你是罗马社会精英，你又真的有熟悉法律的朋友，你甚至可以找朋友代表你出庭。如果你要借钱，当时还没有银行，你基本上只能找朋友借钱。

Katharina Volk: So there is this sort of sense of friendship, which also goes with a sense of obligations. There's this sense of your friend does something for you, you have to do something for them. And while this is ideally viewed as a so-called a beneficia, a good deed or a favor and not, you know, something that, you know, you have a right to, there is still a sort of sense that these beneficia, you know, have to be reciprocated. So that's basically the background in society.

凯瑟琳娜·沃尔克：这种友谊观念也引发了一种义务感。你会觉得，朋友为你做了点什么，你也必须为他们做点什么。理念上看，这些事被视为某种善行或恩惠，而不是你理应享有的东西。人们仍然觉得这些好处必须得到回报。这就是当时的社会背景。

Katharina Volk: And so Cicero, following other Greek philosophers, is sort of setting out to, in a way, sort of introduce a more high minded, a more virtue-based, but also a kind of more affection based element into that sort of saying, you know, friendship is not just what you think, you know, that you do something for your friend and then he has to do something for you. There is something else involved as well.

凯瑟琳娜·沃尔克：西塞罗和其他希腊哲学家一样，开始着手在友谊观念中加入某种更崇高、更基于美德和情感的元素。友谊不仅仅是你想着为朋友做点什么、他也为你做点什么，友谊还涉及到其他方面。

Zachary Davis: Friendship was an important topic around the time Cicero was writing this text. A few months earlier, Julius Caesar was assassinated by a group of conspirators. Some of them claimed to be his friend, including Brutus and Cassius.

扎卡里·戴维斯：在西塞罗写《论友谊》的时候，友谊是一个重要的话题。动笔的几个月前，尤利乌斯·凯撒被一群人密谋刺杀。这群人里，有些还曾声称是凯撒的朋友，其中就包括布鲁图斯和卡西乌斯。

Katharina Volk: And this has often been, you know, treated as a sort of an enormous case of betrayal. So, for example, in Dante's Inferno, Brutus and Cassius in the deepest circle of hell, because they betrayed their friend and they were clearly people in Rome at the time who were saying the same thing or followers of Caesar who were his friends and who were not now going to, like, change their tune just because their friend had been assassinated.

凯瑟琳娜·沃尔克：这常常被视作背叛友谊的经典案例。在但丁的《神曲·地狱篇》中，布鲁图斯和卡西乌斯在地狱的最深处。他们在当时的罗马是凯撒所谓的“追随者”，可他们却背叛了朋友。身为朋友，他们也没有对凯撒遇刺发表异议。

Katharina Volk: And so Cicero is kind of pushing back against that and says, well, you can only be friends with a good person. And he doesn't mention Caesar. But the implication is that, you know, Caesar was not a good person. And he says you cannot be friends with a tyrant and you also are not allowed, you know, if your friend is asking you to to do something bad, this is when you have to break off the friendship.

凯瑟琳娜·沃尔克：西塞罗对此有些看法。他说，你只能和高尚的人成为朋友。他虽然没有提到凯撒，但言下之意是凯撒并不是高尚的人。他说，你不能和暴君成为朋友。如果朋友叫你做一些不好的事情，那绝对不行，这时候就必须和他决裂。

Katharina Volk: And especially if this advice to doing something unconstitutional, something against the Commonwealth. So if you think this gives you a sort of, gives you the license to do, you know, evil things, criminal things, because you're allegedly doing them for a friend or you can't oppose your friend, that's just plain wrong. That's not really friendship.

凯瑟琳娜·沃尔克：特别是如果他叫你做的事情有违法规，会损害共和国的利益，那更是万万不可。如果说，友谊的旗号给了你理由做这些十恶不赦的事情，你声称这么做是为了朋友、或是由于不想反对朋友，那可就大错特错。这绝不是真正的友谊。

Zachary Davis: What does he say about honesty and, you know, kind of saying hard things to a friend sometimes?

扎卡里·戴维斯：他如何看待诚信？有时候如何对朋友说一些很难接受的事情？

Katharina Volk: Yeah, so he's very much into that. He says that, yeah, if you're friend, you really you know, it's a kind of tough love. You know, you have to tell your friend the truth and you have to give them advice. But you also have to be able to take the truth.

凯瑟琳娜·沃尔克：西塞罗很喜欢谈这个。他说，如果你是对方的朋友，那你对他怀有的是一种严苛的爱。你必须告诉朋友事实，给他们建议。但同样，你也要能接受朋友告诉你的事实。

Katharina Volk: So it's not a sort of warm and fuzzy thing in his, you know, opinion. But, you know, this is sort of free exchange, you know, of views. And this is sort of a giving of advice, which runs a little bit against his previous claim that friendship is really ideally agreement on all matters. So, you know, ideally, friends would already be agreeing on all matters. So then you wouldn't need that. But I guess there is some acknowledgement that oftentimes you do need that.

凯瑟琳娜·沃尔克：在西塞罗看来，真正的朋友并不是互相抚慰、含糊其辞，而是彼此无拘无束地交流观点。不过这和他之前的一个观点有些冲突。他之前说，理想情况下，朋友在所有问题上会达成共识。你并非在所有情况下都需要共识，不过想必大多数时候还是需要的。

Zachary Davis: And it seems like he thinks friendship, the beauty of it is that it helps you reach your own potential for your best self.

扎卡里·戴维斯：西塞罗认为，友谊之所以美好，是因为它可以帮助你发挥自己的潜力，实现最好的自我。

Katharina Volk: That's correct. So it's sort of as you were saying, it kind of brings out the best in other people and helps them, as it were, to realize their virtues, which goes with a sense that you have an Aristotle and Cicero very much subscribes to that that all virtue can only be realized in action. So it's always life is at its best, is always active, which, of course also means there's always social, it's always with other people. And so therefore friendship in a way is the sort of ideal catalyst for this kind of ideally virtuous, active life.

凯瑟琳娜·沃尔克：没错。就像你说的，朋友可以发掘一个人的才华，帮助他培养美德，乃至变成像亚里士多德一般的人。所有美德只有在行动中才能实现，西塞罗非常赞同这一点。这样一来，你的生活总是处于最佳状态，总是充满活力，当然这也意味着你总是会和别人交流。所以从某种意义上讲，友谊是这种高尚且积极的理想生活的绝佳催化剂。

Zachary Davis: Let’s now move to its legacy and kind of life through the years. So, what happened to Cicero’s writing after his death, what was its reception, and you know, what’s the longer history of Cicero’s influence on Western culture, both his broader works but also this particular text?

扎卡里·戴维斯：我们来谈谈这么多年来这篇文章的影响吧。西塞罗去世后，他的作品情况如何？反响怎么样？《论友谊》还有他的其他作品对西方文化产生了哪些深远影响？

Katharina Volk: Right, not all of his works have survived, but a heck of a lot has survived. So we have more of Cicero, I guess, than any other ancient author. We certainly know more about this of life than any other ancient author, because we have 900 letters by him which like doesn't happen for anybody else.

凯瑟琳娜·沃尔克：他的作品并没有全部保留下来，不过保留下来的也很多。比起其他古代作家，对于西塞罗的生活我们知道的更多。我们如今保留下来九百封西塞罗的信，比其他任何人的都多。

Zachary Davis: That's just so extraordinary that 900 personal letters.

扎卡里·戴维斯：九百多封私人信件——太了不起了。

Katharina Volk: Yes.

凯瑟琳娜·沃尔克：确实。

Zachary Davis: Survived. Now, how did these get preserved?

扎卡里·戴维斯：这些作品都保留了下来，那之后它们是怎么被保存的？

Katharina Volk: So, you know, ancient works were copied and recopied as manuscripts. And if they're lucky, they make it into the Middle Ages. And sometimes people in the Middle Ages are very much into them and sometimes they're not so much or they're just lying around in some monasteries and they're only rediscovered in the Renaissance where people were really getting into antiquity again. So different works of Cicero fared differently.

凯瑟琳娜·沃尔克：从前，古代作品被人抄录成手稿，幸运的话会传到中世纪，有时候会受到中世纪人们的喜爱，有时则鲜有人问津，静静躺在修道院里。到了文艺复兴时期，人们推崇古代作品，这些手稿被重新发现。西塞罗的不同作品境遇各不相同。

Katharina Volk: In the case of the work of friendship, it was actually popular in the Middle Ages and authors in the Middle Ages who were writing about friendship, but now, from a Christian perspective, were using this as a kind of model to, as it were, rewrite it in a Christian way. And then obviously, once we come to the Renaissance, where people were especially interested in kinds of philosophy that were practical in political philosophy in ethics and sort of advice about, you know, personal interactions. So they were also very much interested in the topic of friendship.

凯瑟琳娜·沃尔克：《论友谊》其实在中世纪非常流行。中世纪的作家会写关于友谊的文章，不过是从基督教的角度，以《论友谊》为模板，按基督教的方式重新叙写。到了文艺复兴时期，人们对政治哲学、伦理学领域各种具有实践意义的哲学思想很感兴趣，重视在个人社交方面的建议。自然，他们对友谊这个话题也非常感兴趣。

Katharina Volk: But generally speaking, the philosophical works of Cicero were extremely important in the Middle Ages and in the Renaissance until basically Greek literature and the Greek language were sort of rediscovered in the West and people learn Greek again and started reading Greek literature and Greek philosophy and, you know, rediscovered Plato and Aristotle in the original, at which point, you know, Cicero's philosophy kind of took a nosedive in reputation and has really, in a way, only been rediscovered seriously by philosophers in the last 25 years or so.

凯瑟琳娜·沃尔克：总的来说，西塞罗的哲学作品在中世纪和文艺复兴时期都极为重要。后来，西方世界重新发掘了希腊文学与希腊语言，研究起了了希腊，开始阅读希腊文学与哲学作品，还发掘了柏拉图和亚里士多德的希腊语著作。这时西塞罗的哲学名望急转直下。一直到过去二十五年左右，哲学家才开始重新认真审视西塞罗的成就。

Zachary Davis: Could you tell us about how Latin literature and Cicero, in particular, became tightly embedded in elite Western educational models?

扎卡里·戴维斯：您可以跟我们讲讲拉丁语文学、尤其是西塞罗的作品如何紧密地融入到西方精英教育模式中吗？

Katharina Volk: It already grows out of ancient education, which was very text based. So throughout antiquity, throughout the Middle Ages into the modern period, education was basically like reading a text, often learning it by heart and discussing it, discussing its grammar, discussing its content. And, you know, schoolteacher's, you know, of course, sort of conservative, but they also want something that's, you know, canonical and that's sort of typical. And Cicero and to a lesser extent, Julius Caesar, their writings and their prose became early on.

凯瑟琳娜·沃尔克：这源于古代以文本为载体的教育。从古典时期到中世纪、再到现代，教育模式基本上都是阅读文本，用心学习，然后讨论文本的语法和内容。学校的老师当然有些保守，但他们也想教一些经典篇目，于是西塞罗的散文作品就成了早期的教学内容，有时候凯撒的作品也会被收录进去。

Katharina Volk: I mean, the kind of standard of Latin language had been developing, still, you know, a living language develops all the time, but their prose and their style became so influential that this became the canonical way of writing Latin. So the Latin that kids learn today, but the kids have been learning for 2000 years is basically sort of abstracted from Cicero’s style.

凯瑟琳娜·沃尔克：拉丁语言的标准一直在变化发展，每个活着的语言都会一直发展。但这些人的散文和文风太有影响力了，甚至都成了拉丁语写作的经典方式。所以如今孩子们学习的拉丁语、甚至这两千年来孩子们学的拉丁语基本上都是从西塞罗的文字形式提炼而来的。

Katharina Volk: And what happened is that then, as it were, Latin became fossilized. So this was the Latin that continued to be written even when the language continued developing. And at some point that language wasn’t Latin anymore. It was already, you know, French and Italian and Spanish or whatever. But what was being written and what was being written in the Middle Ages and into the Renaissance and what was being lost by kids of school and what was the sort of lingua franca of Europe, was that Latin that had been the Latin of Cicero. So this dead language, but it was the language that was being used where the living language had developed into something totally different.

凯瑟琳娜·沃尔克：后来，拉丁语消亡了。尽管拉丁语不断发展变化，甚至在某个时候消亡了，发展成了法语、意大利语、西班牙语等等，人们书写的拉丁语仍然是西塞罗式的拉丁语，这种中世纪和文艺复兴时期人们书写的、曾被学校孩子们丢下的、一度是欧洲通用语的拉丁语。这是一门消亡的语言，但正是在这门语言的基础上发展出了如今人们使用的全然不同的语言。

Zachary Davis: For more than 1,000 years, Cicero’s Latin was the lingua franca of Europe, uniting political, literary, religious and scientific communities. For a really long time, elite Europeans communicated with each other using Latin. Latin’s importance lasted into the 19th and even 20th centuries. The last significant scientific work published in Latin was Giuseppe Peano’s 1889 work on set theory. And it wasn’t until 1965 that the Catholic Church allowed liturgy to be conducted in languages other than Latin.

扎卡里·戴维斯：一千多年间，西塞罗式的拉丁语是欧洲的通用语，被政界、文学界、宗教界和科学界共同使用。在这么长的时间里，欧洲精英纷纷用拉丁语交流。直到19乃至20世纪，拉丁语还扮演着重要的作用。最后一部用拉丁语发表的重要科学著作是朱塞佩·皮亚诺1889年的集合论著作。直到1965年，天主教会才允许使用拉丁语以外的其他语言举办教堂仪式。

Katharina Volk: So since it was perceived, you know, at the time and soon after to be the sort of high point of Latin and of Latin style, that's the Latin that remained. And, you know, while the medieval Latin is a little bit different and, you know, you can take courses in medieval Latin and it's not exactly the classical Latin, but at the end of the day, if you've learned classical Latin, you can read medieval Latin or Renaissance Latin or early modern Latin. It's always the same Latin because it's Cicero's Latin. And so it was just about the content, but it was also about the form that this was sort of considered Latin.

凯瑟琳娜·沃尔克：自从西塞罗的文字形式被视作拉丁语的经典书写形式之后，拉丁语和拉丁语风格也就定型了。中世纪的拉丁语稍微有些不同，你可以听一听中世纪拉丁语的课，会发现不完全是古典拉丁语的样子。不过总的来说，如果你学过古典拉丁语，你就可以阅读中世纪拉丁语、文艺复兴时期的拉丁语或现代早期的拉丁语。这些拉丁语大体相同，因为它们都是按照西塞罗的形式来的。所以西塞罗影响的不仅仅是哲学内容，还有拉丁文的文本形式。

Zachary Davis: What is the current state of the study of Latin, the learning of Latin and the use of Latin as a language?

扎卡里·戴维斯：目前拉丁语的研究、学习和使用情况怎么样？

Katharina Volk: I think it is the case that, you know, Latin and just the study of the ancient world in general has very often been pronounced dead. And then it turned out that this is absolutely not the case, that there, you know, generations of more people, including fairly young kids, will get very enthusiastic about that. What Cicero says about friendship, that it's not instrumental for anything, but it's sort of a good in itself. You know, I think the study of the world, the study of Latin, it's the same thing. I mean, if you wanted to be instrumental for something else of it, you can come up with all sorts of narratives about that. But in the end, I think you have to sort of see it as a good in its own right.

凯瑟琳娜·沃尔克：常常有人说拉丁语已经死了，整个古典时期的研究也到头了。然而事实证明绝非如此。一代又一代的人、包括很多年轻人都对拉丁语充满兴趣。就像西塞罗对友谊的评价一样，它不能为你行方便，但本身就是个好东西。我觉得了解世界、学习拉丁语都一样。如果你想从其中某些方面找出实际用途，可以想出各种各样的说法。但最终，你必须把它本身看作好东西。

Katharina Volk: But I think, you know, it is still going strong and it's going strong around the world. And for example, one thing that has been very interesting to me is that this seems to be a real rise of interest in Greek and Latin and in Greek and Roman antiquity in the Asian world. I mean, we get more and more students from from China, from Korea, from Hong Kong, you know, whether, you know, some Asian Americans, many, you know, immigrants, or there are people who just come, you know, to the United States to go to college. And I think we're going to see, you know, a lot of developments in those parts of the world.

凯瑟琳娜·沃尔克：不过我觉得，它在全世界的影响力仍然很大。比如，我发现很有意思的是，亚洲对古希腊、古罗马和拉丁语越来越感兴趣。我们有越来越多的学生来自中国、韩国、中国香港，还有一些学生是亚裔美国人或美国移民，也有些人是来美国大学留学的。我想，未来我们会看到这些地区取得许多进展。

Zachary Davis: It can be easy to overlook the power of friendship, especially if the term is reduced to a connection on social media. But Cicero reminds us of the importance of genuine friendship. He shows us how being a friend is more than just getting along. It is a sharing of one’s core values and virtues. And in our lonely, anxious time, understanding and developing friendship is more critical than ever.

扎卡里·戴维斯：我们很容易忽略友谊的力量，特别是如今这个词沦为社交媒体上人际关系的代称。不过西塞罗提醒我们，真正的友谊很重要。他告诉我们朋友的真谛不仅仅在于日常相处，更在于共享核心价值观、共塑美德。在当下这个孤独、焦虑的时代，理解、发展友谊比以往任何时候都更重要。

Katharina Volk: This is really the text that we now have from the Western tradition to tell us that friendship is important. That is one of the most important things in life and that it is not just the sort of quotidian everyday thing that you might think it is, but that it has to do with what it means to be human and also what it means to be a good person.

凯瑟琳娜·沃尔克：《论友谊》是我们从西方传统中传承下来的内容，它向我们揭示了友谊的重要性。友谊是生活中最重要的东西之一，它不仅关乎日常点滴，更关乎何为真正的人——真正高尚的人。

Zachary Davis: Writ Large is a production of Ximalaya. Writ Large is produced by Jack Pombriant, Liza French, and me, Zachary Davis. Script editing is by Galen Beebe. We get help from Feiran Du, Ariel Liu and Monica Zhang. Our theme song is by Ian Coss. Don’t miss an episode. Subscribe today in the Ximalaya app. Thanks for listening. See you next time.

扎卡里·戴维斯：本节目由喜马拉雅独家制作播出。感谢您的收听，我们下期再见！