【英文原声版21】John Stauffer： Frederick Douglass’s works

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How did the boy in slavery pick up the Bible?

黑人奴隶男孩如何读起了《圣经》？

Zachary Davis: When Frederick Douglass was a child, it was illegal for him to learn the alphabet. He was born into slavery in Eastern Maryland around 1818 and lived on a plantation until he was eight years old. He was then sent to the city of Baltimore, to live with Hugh and Sophia Auld and be a playmate for their son Thomas.

扎卡里·戴维斯：在弗雷德里克·道格拉斯小时候，黑人学习识字是非法的。他于1818年左右出生在马里兰州东部，自小就是奴隶，八岁以前一直生活在种植园。八岁时，他被送到巴尔的摩市，与休·奥尔德和索菲亚·奥尔德住在一起，成了他们儿子托马斯的玩伴。

John Stauffer: Sophia, Tommy's mother started teaching Tommy how to read first with the teaching in the ABCs and then basic words. And Fredrick heard Sophia read the King James Bible to Tommy. And there may have, probably was a natural aptitude for language, for words, and Douglas was fascinated and he asked Sophia to teach him to read. And because she had never been a slave mistress, she didn't realize how empowering that would be. And so she gave him this, taught him ABCs, taught him the rudiments of language and of reading.

约翰·斯托弗：托马斯的母亲索菲娅开始教托马斯阅读，从字母开始，然后再教基本的单词。道格拉斯听到索菲亚给托马斯朗读了英皇钦定版的《圣经》。可能是出于语言天赋，道格拉斯听着迷了，于是让索菲亚教他读书。索菲亚从没做过奴隶的女主人，所以没有意识到阅读会赋予奴隶多大的力量。她给了他这本圣经，教会他识字，以及语言和阅读的基本功。

John Stauffer: And then Hugh Auld, who understood slavery and the power of literacy that would disrupt or subvert slavery, saw his wife teaching and helping Douglass with his reading. And in front of Douglass, he told his wife, You can't do that. The easiest way to unfit a slave for slavery is to teach him to read and write. And Douglass hearing that said himself, if that's the case, I will do, I will cut my eyeteeth to anything I can to master language, master reading and writing. And really, from that moment, his life's mission was clarified: to use words as the most potent weapon possible.

约翰·斯托弗：休·奥尔德了解奴隶制，也深知教会奴隶读写会破坏奴隶制。后来他发现妻子在教道格拉斯读书。于是他当着道格拉斯的面告诉妻子，你不能那样做，让奴隶不受奴隶制的约束，最简单的方法就是教他读写。而道格拉斯在心里默默地说，那样的话，我一定要学会，我会不惜一切代价掌握语言、学会读写。从那时起，他的人生使命便清清楚楚，那就是将文字作为最有力的武器。

Zachary Davis: Douglass continued his lessons in secret, paying poor local boys bread to teach him to read. But he never forgot the first book, the King James Bible. That remained an influential book throughout his life.

扎卡里·戴维斯：道格拉斯继续偷偷地学习，付给当地穷孩子面包，让他们教自己读书。但他从未忘记自己的第一本书：英皇钦定版的《圣经》。这本书影响了他的一生。

John Stauffer: He was more familiar with that than most virtually any minister today. He could quote almost chapter and verse, and you see the way in which he borrows from the language of the King James Bible throughout his speeches and his writings.

约翰·斯托弗：他对《圣经》的熟悉程度甚至都超过如今的所有牧师。他对各章节的内容几乎信手拈来，在他的演讲和作品中，你可以看到引用自《圣经》的内容。

John Stauffer: I'm John Stauffer, the Sumner R. and Marshall S. Kates Professor of English and of African-American studies at Harvard.

约翰·斯托弗：我是约翰·斯托弗，是哈佛大学非洲研究与非裔美国研究系的讲座教授。

Zachary Davis: Hugh Auld’s fears came true. Douglass found his power through reading and writing. He escaped slavery as a young man and went on to become one of the most famous and accomplished American writers of his day. He published three autobiographies, but he was more famous for his speeches. He gave many speeches along the Lyceum Circuit in the US, which was an organization that put together various public education programs and brought famous orators to local communities.

扎卡里·戴维斯：休·奥尔德担心的事情发生了。道格拉斯通过阅读和写作挖掘了自己的力量。他年轻时就逃脱了奴隶制的枷锁，后来成为当时最著名、最有成就的美国作家之一。他出版了三本自传，但他更出名的是演讲。他在美国的莱森学园发表了许多演讲，莱森学园运动的组织者发起了各种公共教育项目，将著名演说家请到了当地社区。

John Stauffer: And his life's mission was to destroy slavery and to try to achieve the ideals of the declaration. That really was his life's mission,  that he, as I said, devoted himself to. And his writing, his photographs, his speeches were all in that service.

约翰·斯托弗：他的人生使命就是消灭奴隶制并努力实现《独立宣言》的理想。正如我所说，这确实是他一生的使命，他全心投入其中。他的作品、照片、演讲都是为了践行这一使命。

Zachary Davis: Welcome to Writ Large, a podcast about how books change the world. I’m Zachary Davis. In each episode, I talk with one of the world’s leading scholars about one book that changed the course of history. For this episode, I sat down with Professor Stauffer to discuss Frederick Douglass’s works.

扎卡里·戴维斯：欢迎收听：100本改变你和世界的书，在这里我们为大家讲述改变世界的书籍。我是扎卡里·戴维斯。每一集，我都会和一位世界顶尖学者探讨一本影响历史进程的书。在本集，我和约翰·斯托弗教授一起讨论弗雷德里克·道格拉斯的作品。

Zachary Davis: So tell us how his professional writing and speaking career gets underway.

扎卡里·戴维斯：您跟我们讲讲，他的写作和演讲生涯是怎样的吧。

John Stauffer: It's important to understand that as a slave, Douglass was what I've called a comparatively privileged slave. One, he was born and raised in Maryland, which is a upper slave state. So it's much easier to escape to free soil from Maryland than most slaves were in the Deep South. And the possibility of becoming free from the Deep South is far, far less. Douglas was also privileged in that he spent a good portion of his time as a slave in Baltimore.

约翰·斯托弗：我们要知道，道格拉斯是一个相对来说挺幸运的奴隶。一个原因是他在马里兰州出生、长大。这个州在所有蓄奴州中位置偏北，和更靠南部的州相比，从这儿逃往自由州更容易。在那些更靠南的州获得自由的几率小得多。道格拉斯的幸运之处还在于，他当奴隶时大部分时光是在巴尔的摩市度过的。

Zachary Davis: Slaves living in cities had more opportunities to escape, which Douglass did in 1838 when he was 20 years old. By the time Douglass escaped, slavery had been abolished in all states north of Maryland. Many slaves found their way to freedom through the underground railroad, a secret network of routes and safehouses from the south to the free north and Canada.

扎卡里·戴维斯：住在城里的奴隶有更多出逃的机会。1838年，道格拉斯逃走了，那年他20岁。当时马里兰州以北的所有州都废除了奴隶制，许多奴隶通过“地下铁路”踏上了通往自由的道路。“地下铁路”是黑奴从南部州逃往北部州和加拿大的秘密路线及藏身之处。

Zachary Davis: Douglass made his way north from Maryland, eventually settling in New Bedford, Massachusetts. He got a job as a preacher in a local African Methodist Episcopal church, the first church founded by black people in America. New Bedford was largely anti-slavery, and Douglass became active in the black abolitionist community and gave speeches, mostly to African American audiences. He often referenced the King James Bible, and was especially influenced by the books of the prophets.

扎卡里·戴维斯：道格拉斯从马里兰州往北逃，最终定居在马萨诸塞州的新贝德福德。他在当地的非洲裔卫理圣公会教堂做传教士，这是黑人在美国建立的第一座教堂。新贝德福德的大部分人都反对奴隶制。道格拉斯活跃于黑人废奴主义者社区，在那儿做演讲，主要面向美国黑人。他经常引用英皇钦定版的《圣经》，尤其是先知书中的内容。

John Stauffer: The prophetic idea is important because Douglass was a prophet. He believed that he was acting out God's will and God's vision for the idea of equality and freedom. And it's a main theme in the largest sense in the Old and New Testament, the idea of freedom, not just religious freedom, but personal freedom. The Bible is probably the single most influential text in his life and was unembarrassed about emphasizing the prophetic nature of his oratory, of his journalism, of his autobiographies.

约翰·斯托弗：引用先知书这个主意很重要，因为道格拉斯自己就是先知。他相信自己正在践行上帝的旨意和上帝对平等与自由的构想。这很大程度上也是旧约和新约的主题，即自由，不仅是宗教自由，还包括个人自由。《圣经》可能是对他的一生影响最大的文本。他也毫不忸怩地强调自己的演讲、报道和自传具有先知的属性。

Zachary Davis: This idea of carrying out a prophetic mission was common with abolitionists. They believed that there was a law higher than the laws of society. In their eyes, they were doing God’s work. So Douglas reads the Hebrew prophets. They come down to wicked societies and call them to repentance. It sounds like he may have seen his calling as something similar through his public speeches.

扎卡里·戴维斯：这种践行先知使命的想法在废奴主义者中很普遍。他们认为上帝的旨意高于世俗法律。在他们看来，自己正在践行上帝的构想。所以道格拉斯读了希伯来先知的故事。他们来到邪恶的世间，劝说有罪之人悔改。所以道格拉斯似乎觉得借助公共演讲，自己可以完成类似于先知的使命。

John Stauffer: Yes, that's a great point. He did. And I would call it a calling. He devoted his life to converting people to what he perceived as this religious ideal of freedom and equality, equality of opportunity in particular. He was faithful to the democratic process.

约翰·斯托弗：这点很了不起。我也会称之为使命。他一生致力于鼓励人们追求自由、平等、特别是机会均等等宗教理念，坚定不移地推动着民主进程。

How did Douglass become a professional speaker?

道格拉斯如何成为了职业演说家？

Zachary Davis: In his speeches, Douglass shared his personal story of enslavement. At this point, he was speaking mostly to African Americans in the church. But one day, a white abolitionist named William C. Coffin came to see him talk. Coffin was impressed by Douglass’s speech, and he invited Douglass to share his story at an upcoming convention for the Massachusetts Anti-Slavery Society in Nantucket. Douglass agreed and delivered his speech on August 11, 1841.

扎卡里·戴维斯：在演讲中，道格拉斯分享了自己奴隶时代的故事。讲这个话题的时候，他主要在教堂里面向美国黑人去分享。但有一天，一个叫威廉·C·科芬的白人废奴主义者来听他的演讲。道格拉斯的演讲给科芬留下了深刻的印象，他邀请道格拉斯去南特克特，在即将举行的马塞诸塞州反奴隶制协会上分享自己的故事。道格拉斯同意了。1841年8月11日，他发表了演讲。

John Stauffer: And it's so powerful that William Lloyd Garrison, who is the head of the American Anti-Slavery Society, hires Douglas to become a full time paid lecturer. And it's a dream job because he loves speaking. He loves language. He moves from New Bedford to Lynn, Massachusetts, a suburb of Boston, because it's at that point, in fact, his home was right next to the railroad station. You could see the railroad station. And as a lecturer, he's gonna be, he travels all the time to the north and the Midwest—he couldn't go into the South, he would have been lynched—and tries to abolitionize northern audiences.

约翰·斯托弗：这次演讲如此精彩，美国反奴隶制协会会长威廉·劳埃德·加里森甚至还雇佣道格拉斯担任全职演说家。这是他梦寐以求的工作，因为他非常热爱演讲和语言。他从新贝德福德搬到波士顿郊区的林恩，因为新家就在火车站旁边，在家甚至可以看到火车站。身为演说家，他经常到北方和中西部演说，宣传废奴主义思想。但他不能去南方，因为要躲避私人追捕。

Zachary Davis: Douglass understood that truth was a powerful tool for converting people into abolitionists. So, he shared his experiences with violent and sadistic slave owners. And he was extremely successful.

扎卡里·戴维斯：道格拉斯深知要让越来越多的人支持废奴主义，一个有力的做法就是借助真实经历。于是他分享了亲身经历的暴虐的奴隶主的故事，结果大获成功。

John Stauffer: One example is he went to Buffalo, New York, to abolitionize Buffalo, New York. And at that time, Buffalo was a fast-growing town, mostly for business people.And when he arrives at Buffalo, the venue that they had was an old dilapidated post office. When he arrives to give his speech, there's only about five people there.

约翰·斯托弗：一个例子是他去纽约州的水牛城宣传废奴主义。当时水牛城是一个迅速发展的小镇，主要居民都是商业人士。道格拉斯到了当地，却发现演讲地点是一个破旧的邮局。演讲的现场也只有大概五个人。

Zachary Davis: These five people weren’t there to see Douglass speak—they were cabbies who drove horse-drawn carriages and were just waiting in this run-down post office for a job. But that didn’t discourage Douglass.

扎卡里·戴维斯：这五个人去那儿不是为了听道格拉斯的演讲。他们是马车车夫，驾着马车，在破邮局里等工作。不过道格拉斯并没有因此而气馁。

John Stauffer: He gives this speech to five people and he gives his similar speech every day. And within 10 days, there's so many people wanting to hear him that there's not a venue large enough to hold him. So he speaks in the village green to what he estimates is a third of the population in the city. That's how charismatic and magnetic and brilliant he was as a lecturer.

约翰·斯托弗：他给这五个人作了演讲，之后每天，他都会做类似的演讲。不到十天，人们便蜂拥而至想要听他的演讲，甚至水牛城都没有场地能容纳下这么多人了。于是他去空草地上做了演讲，据他估计听众大概有该市人口的三分之一。这就是他作为演说家的魅力与出色之处。

John Stauffer: And so, in fact, he's so good as a lecturer that increasingly some whites start to accuse him of being a fraud, saying you have such a mastery of language, you're such a brilliant wordsmith and orator, there's no way you could not have had any formal education. There's no way you could have been a slave for your first 20 years.

约翰·斯托弗：他的演讲太过出色，以至于越来越多的白人开始指责他是骗子。他们说既然你精通语言，是一位语言大师和演说能手，你不可能没接受过任何正规教育。你在头20年不可能是奴隶。

Zachary Davis: Douglass realizes that if he’s going to use the power of words to their full potential, he has to tell the whole truth.

扎卡里·戴维斯：道格拉斯意识到，如果他要充分利用文字的力量，就必须把真实经历全盘托出。

John Stauffer: As a fugitive, he's legally a fugitive from justice. He doesn't say where he's from. He doesn't say who his master is because he doesn't want to get captured. Because of the accusations of fraud, he decides to throw caution to the wind. And he writes his tell all. And he says exactly where he's from and who his master was. And that book becomes a bestseller to such a degree to which the American Anti-Slavery Society sends him to England, Ireland and Scotland, the British Isles for two years to avoid recapture.

约翰·斯托弗：从法律上讲，他是一名在逃的黑奴。之前他一直没说自己来自哪儿，主人是谁，因为他不想被追捕。可既然有人说他是骗子，那他就决定把胆子放开，把所有经历都写下来。他确切地写道自己来自哪里、主人是谁。这本书畅销一时，甚至美国反奴隶制协会为了避免他被追捕，将他送往英格兰、爱尔兰和苏格兰，让他在大不列颠诸岛呆了两年。

Zachary Davis: After working toward a world without slavery for so many years, Douglass had finally gotten there—or, at least, to one version of it. Slavery was officially abolished in Britain and the British colonies in 1833. Douglass could travel throughout the British Isles, and give speeches, without fear of losing his freedom.

扎卡里·戴维斯：在为废除奴隶制而奋斗数年之后，道格拉斯终于迎来了一个没有奴隶制的国家——至少是来到了这样一个国家。1833年，奴隶制在英国和英属殖民地被正式废除。道格拉斯可以在不列颠诸岛旅行，发表演讲，而不必担心失去自由。

John Stauffer: And he considered staying there, and his American Anti-Slavery Society would have send his family there and living there for the rest of his life. And the main reason that he returned to the United States is a sense of obligation and duty to his fellow African-Americans. British sympathizers purchased his freedom while he was there. They contacted his owners, Hugh and Thomas Auld, and they essentially negotiated a price.

约翰·斯托弗：他考虑过住在那里，美国反奴隶制协会会把他的家人带来，一家人可以在英国度过余生。不过主要出于对美国黑人同胞的责任感，他还是回到了美国。他的英国支持者出资将他赎为自由人。他们联系了他的主人休·奥尔德和托马斯·奥尔德，并协商好了价钱。

John Stauffer: And so when he returns, he is free and he decides to move to Rochester, New York, rather than Boston, because increasingly he becomes a political abolitionist, whereas the William Lloyd Garrison's American Anti-Slavery Society was what's known as non-resistance. In other words, they interpreted the constitution as pro-slavery.

约翰·斯托弗：所以道格拉斯返回美国时已经是自由人了。他决定从波士顿搬到纽约州的罗切斯特，因为他的废奴主义政治倾向越来越明显，而威廉·劳埃德·加里森的美国反奴隶制协会以不抵抗而闻名。换句话说，他们认为宪法是支持奴隶制的。

Zachary Davis: Douglass on the other hand, interpreted the Constitution as anti-slavery, and he spread that message in his speeches. After moving to Rochester, Douglass used some of the money he had earned in Britain and started an anti-slavery newspaper called The North Star. Although there were other abolitionist papers at the time, such as Garrison’s The Liberator, most of these were run by white abolitionists.

扎卡里·戴维斯：道格拉斯则与之相反，认为宪法是反对奴隶制的，于是他在演讲中传递了这一信息。搬到罗切斯特后，道格拉斯用他在英国赚来的一些钱，创办了反奴隶制报纸《北极星报》。不过当时还有一些其他废奴主义者创办的报纸，例如加里森的《解放者报》，其中大多数是由白人废奴主义者经营的。

Zachary Davis: Douglass wanted the African Americans who had suffered the injustices of slavery to speak for themselves. So, he made a newspaper that was written and edited by African-Americans. Meanwhile, Douglass was still going on the road, giving speeches everywhere he went. And while he’s on the road, he discovers a new way to spread his message.

扎卡里·戴维斯：道格拉斯希望遭受奴隶制不公正待遇的美国黑人为自己发声。所以他创办了一份由美国黑人撰写和编辑的报纸。同时，道格拉斯仍在四处奔走，到处发表演讲。在奔走途中，他发现了一种传播信息的新方式。

John Stauffer: Most destinations where he gave speeches, photographers, because he's famous, wanted him to sit for them.

约翰·斯托弗：在他演讲的大多数地方，摄影师都看中了他的名气，希望能给他拍照。

Zachary Davis: Photographers in this era would often take pictures of famous people for free. They gave the person they photographed a couple hundred pocket size copies of the photo to hand out. And in exchange, the photographer would keep the negative and sell copies of the photo to other clients.

扎卡里·戴维斯：那个时代，摄影师常常会免费为名人拍照。他们给拍摄对象几百个口袋大小的照片副本。作为交换，摄影师会保留底片并将照片副本出售给其他客户。

John Stauffer: And Americans then, like now, had photo albums. The differences that American families and individuals in their photo albums. There were family members and friends, but also famous figures they didn't know that they identified with. So there are countless photo albums in which the family has a, or the individual has a portrait of Frederick Douglass, photograph of Frederick Douglass, even though they never met him. But they wanted they saw themselves identifying with him.

约翰·斯托弗：美国人当时和现在一样，已经有了相册。不过当时美国家庭和个人的相册与现在有所不同。相册里不仅有家人和朋友，还有他们没见过的、毫无交集的著名人物。因此，数不清的家庭或个人相册中都有弗雷德里克·道格拉斯的照片，即使他们从未见过他。但他们希望自己与他产生交集。

Zachary Davis: And so it's like collecting baseball cards.

扎卡里·戴维斯：就像收集棒球卡一样。

John Stauffer: Exactly. It's like it's the precursor to baseball cards. Douglass was, in a sense, the first baseball card figure.

约翰·斯托弗：没错，它就像是棒球卡的前身。从某种意义上说，道格拉斯是第一个棒球卡人物。

Zachary Davis: Before long, he became the most photographed American in the 19th century.

扎卡里·戴维斯：不久，他就成为19世纪被拍摄得最多的美国人。

John Stauffer: So there are more separate photographs of Douglass than of Lincoln, Grant, anyone else, which reflects the degree to which the public face of America in the 19th century was the face of an African-American. Which also highlights the degree to which American culture, American literature, American history is inseparable from African-American culture, African-American literature, African-Americans’ history.

约翰·斯托弗：道格拉斯的照片比林肯还有格兰特或者其他人的照片要多得多，这也反映了19世纪美国的公共形象很大程度上是由美国黑人代言的，也凸显了美国文化、文学与历史在很大程度上与美国黑人文化、文学与历史密不可分。

John Stauffer: Douglass also recognized, like his oratory, like his writing, the power photography, because photography told the truth. Even today, most Americans, when they see a photograph on the front page of The New York Times or The Wall Street Journal believe in its true value, even though everyone knows that you can airbrush out, you can distort, manipulate photographs like crazy. But there's still this faithfulness in the truth of a photograph that doesn't exist in paintings or prints or other formats.

约翰·斯托弗：道格拉斯意识到照片也像他的演讲和作品一样，具有强大的作用，因为照片展现了真相。甚至再当下，大多数美国人看到《纽约时报》或《华尔街日报》的头版照片时仍然相信其真实价值，即使大家都知道可以照片可以用气笔修改，也可以被疯狂歪曲利用。然而和油画、版画等形式的图像相比，照片还是具备它们所不具备的真实性。

John Stauffer: And that was crucial for Douglass because it told the truth. And Douglas always presented himself as a citizen, as a well-dressed, articulate, good looking—even his enemies called him good looking—citizen of the United States. In a sense, he’s brilliant as a speaker, brilliant as a writer. And in his photograph, he sent a message that he was out-citizening white citizens at a time in which most white citizens didn't believe blacks should have citizenship. That was part of the power.

约翰·斯托弗：这对道格拉斯至关重要，因为照片展示的是真相。道格拉斯总是把自己打扮成衣冠整洁、口齿伶俐、相貌俊朗的美国公民，甚至他的敌人都承认他相貌俊朗。从某种程度上看，他既是杰出的演说家，也是杰出的作家。他的照片传递了一条信息：在那个大多数白人公民都认为黑人不应该有公民身份的时代，他比很多白人都更有公民的样子。这就是照片的一部分作用。

Zachary Davis: The photos were a marketing ploy—they helped to spread Douglass’s image across the country—but they also reflected Douglass’s deeper belief in the power of art.

扎卡里·戴维斯：这些照片是营销策略：它们有助于在全国范围内宣传道格拉斯的形象不过它们也反映了道德拉斯坚信艺术的力量。

How did Douglass see the power of art?

道格拉斯如何看待艺术的力量？

John Stauffer: One of the things that he mentioned when he wrote about photography is that photography, that one, the truth value of photography was a powerful blow against racism and slavery. Two, Douglas used art to say to highlight the degree. And he said this: All humans are fundamentally equal in the power of their imagination. Only humans can think outside the present and imagine a better future and reflect on the past. Only humans have the capacity to interact with a supernatural, with God, or know any kind of religious deity.

约翰·斯托弗：他在作品里谈到摄影时曾说，摄影的真正价值就在于，一，它给了种族主义和奴隶制一记重击；二，道格拉斯用这些艺术来凸显思想的程度。他说，所有人的想象力在本质上是平齐的。只有人类才能跳出当下去思考，憧憬未来，反思过去。只有人类才有能力与神灵、上帝或任何宗教的神交流。

John Stauffer: And that imaginative power, the ability to reflect on the past, to imagine a better future was itself an engine of reform and possibly revolution. In fact, in one of his great speeches called Pictures in Progress, he said poets, crafts and picture makers are all reformers and that ability is the secret of their power. They see what ought to be in the reflection of what is and seek to undermine the contradiction, which is essentially a brilliant encapsulation of how art, in the broadest sense, inspires us to improve the world.

约翰·斯托弗：这种富有想象力的能力，以及反思过去、憧憬未来的能力便是改革和革命的动力。实际上，他在一篇题为《进步的图景》的伟大演讲中说道，诗人、能工巧匠和画家都是改革者，而这种能力就是他们力量的秘诀。他们反思现状，思考应该如何，试图削弱这二者的矛盾，这从本质上精妙地概括了艺术如何从广义上激励着我们推动世界进步。

Zachary Davis: It's extraordinary the way he seemed to combine philosophy or kind of rhetorical arguments with a really keen appreciation for the power of the aesthetic.

扎卡里·戴维斯：他似乎在哲学或修辞性的论述中融入了对美学力量的欣赏，这很不同寻常。

John Stauffer: That's exactly right. And in that sense, he resembled other leading intellectuals, Emerson, Thoreau. That was part of the era in which the division of the knowledge and philosophy in art and literature really didn't exist. So if you were an intellectual, you really combine those realms at that time. And Douglass did that brilliantly.

约翰·斯托弗：没错。从这个意义上讲，他有些类似其他几位杰出学者，比如爱默生和梭罗。这就是那个时代的特征之一，艺术知识理论与文学知识理论尚未分流。如果你是学者，当时你确实可以融合这两个领域的知识。道格拉斯在这方面就做得很出色。

John Stauffer: In fact, when he escaped from slavery, because he had no formal education, part of the reason why he worked himself so hard is that he was trying to play catch up. He escaped from slavery on September 3, 1838, and he didn't know when he was had been born. And so his birthday, said his birthday was September 3, 1838. So he declared himself to be born on that day, because he had lost the first 20 years. So he's playing catch up. And then what you see it in his writing, in his speeches between the early 1840s, by 1850, when he's speaking on the Lyceum lecture circuit, he's become an intellectual.

约翰·斯托弗：实际上，道格拉斯从奴隶制的束缚中逃脱出来之后，努力学习的一个重要原因是因为自己没受过正规教育，想要迎头赶上。他于1838年9月3日逃脱，但他不知道自己何时出生，所以就说的生日是1838年9月3日。他说自己是那天出生的，因为他已经耗费了前20年的光阴，在努力迎头赶上。到了19世纪40年代初至50年代，他站在莱森学园的讲坛前演讲时，他已经是个学者了，这从他的书和演讲中便可见一斑。

John Stauffer: He reads all of the kind of classic canonical text of intellectual, absorbs them, digest them, turns it into his own interpretation and can speak in ways that dazzle his fellow intellectuals. In fact, when Emerson first heard Douglass speak, and Emerson was considered one of the pre-eminent intellectuals in the United States at the time, he was profoundly inspired and impressed with Douglass.

约翰·斯托弗：他广泛阅读学者们的经典文章，消化吸收，内化为自己的理解，并以令其他学者赞不绝口的方式表述出来。实际上，爱默生第一次听到道格拉斯演讲时，便深受感染与启发。爱默生被认为是当时美国的杰出学者之一。

Zachary Davis: Maybe a little envious, too.

扎卡里·戴维斯：他也许还有点羡慕。

John Stauffer: Yeah. And envious is right because, Douglas was, Douglass could command a higher speaking fee than Emerson or any other orator. That's how significant he was. And he was so significant that when he died, a number of white newspapers called him the most significant American. In fact, The Chicago Tribune after his death, which is then and now a white newspaper, this is a quote said, No man, white or black in the last 50 years has been as significant as Frederick Douglass to the United States. That's an amazing statement.

约翰·斯托弗：没错。羡慕很正常，因为道格拉斯曾说过，自己的演讲费可能比爱默生等任何其他演说家还要高。道格拉斯就是这么伟大。甚至他去世后，许多白人报纸都将他称为最伟大的美国人。实际上，白人报纸《芝加哥论坛报》在他去世后写道：“在过去五十年里，对美国而言，没有哪个白人或黑人能像弗雷德里克·道格拉斯一样伟大。”这个报纸的说法很了不起。

Zachary Davis: Douglass’s influence spread all the way to the White House. In 1863, Douglass showed up unannounced at the White House and, to his surprise, was immediately invited in for a meeting with Lincoln. After this first meeting, Lincoln called on Douglass several more times throughout his presidency. Their last meeting was at Lincoln’s second inaugural address. Of course, there is a photograph of Douglass at the event.

扎卡里·戴维斯：道格拉斯的影响力一直延伸到了白宫。1863年，道格拉斯突然在白宫露面。令他惊讶的是，他立即被邀请与林肯会面。第一次会面后，林肯在任期间多次邀请道格拉斯。他们最后一次会面是在林肯的第二次就职典礼上。当然，我们有道格拉斯在现场的照片。

John Stauffer: We see him in virtually front row at the second inaugural and he's invited to the White House afterwards and he enters the elegant green room. Lincoln sees Douglas enter, he's surrounded by a crowd of whites. He raises his long arm. He says, he yells out, “here comes my friend Frederick Douglass. I saw you in the crowd today. What did you think of my address? There is no man in the United States whose opinion I value more than yours.”And Douglass responded, “Mr. Lincoln, that was a sacred effort. And the inaugural- The second inaugural is, in my view, the greatest inaugural address in American history.”

约翰·斯托弗：在第二届就职典礼上，我们看到他在前排的位置。之后他被邀请到白宫，走进了绿厅。林肯看到他走进来，被一群白人簇拥着。林肯挥着长长的胳膊，喊道：“我的朋友弗雷德里克·道格拉斯来了。我今天在人群中看到了你。你觉得我的演讲怎么样？所有美国人里，我最在乎你的看法了。”道格拉斯回答说：“林肯先生，你所做的努力非常神圣。我觉得你的第二届就职演讲是美国历史上最伟大的就职演讲。”

John Stauffer: And we know that Lincoln said that not only from Douglas's memory 20 or 30 years later, but there was a Boston woman who was right next to Lincoln who quoted Lincoln saying that in her diary that same night. So it wasn’t some hazy 20 year memory.

约翰·斯托弗：我们要知道，林肯这句话不仅仅出自二三十年后道格拉斯的回忆。当时有位波士顿的女士刚好就在林肯旁边，她在日记中提到了林肯那天晚上的这句话。所以这句话并不是二十年后模糊不清的回忆。

Zachary Davis: Lincoln and Douglass’s friendship made a certain kind of sense.

扎卡里·戴维斯：林肯和道格拉斯成为朋友是有原因的。

John Stauffer: They led strikingly parallel lives. Both of them grew up dirt poor. Douglass as a slave who was prohibited from reading and writing, you learn how to read and write on the sly. He first started speaking by being a preacher to slaves on the plantation. Douglass had zero formal education. Lincoln grew up dirt poor and had less than a year of formal education. Both of them, despite their lack of formal education, emerged as, in my view, two of the preeminent nonfiction writers and orators in American history. Lincoln, by far, is the nation's preeminent presidential orator and rhetorician, and Douglass is, in my view, the greatest American nonfiction writer.

约翰·斯托弗：他们的经历惊人地相似。他们儿时都过着苦日子。道格拉斯是奴隶，被禁止读书写字，但他偷偷地学会了读写。他的演说生涯起源于在种植园里向奴隶们传教，但他没有接受过正式教育。林肯也出生贫穷，只受过一年不到的正式教育。尽管他们俩都没受过多少正式教育，但在我看来他们后来都成为了美国历史上杰出的非虚构作家和演说家。林肯在现在人看来是美国杰出的总统演说家和修辞高手，而道格拉斯是美国最伟大的非虚构作家，至少我是这么认为的。

Zachary Davis: So one of the ways that Douglass had influence was by shaping the views of the people who heard him speak and by the people who read his works. Sounds like he directly influenced some statecraft and through his influence on friendship with Lincoln. Let's spend a little time on the enduring influence of Douglas's thought. And maybe you could take us through either some of the most important speeches that continue to be read and reflected upon or some of the themes that you think, you know, both black intellectuals are still reinterpreting and re-engaging with or in general the ideas maybe about representation, fulfilling democracy, the possibilities of full equality in the Constitution.

扎卡里·戴维斯：道格拉斯影响大众的一个方式是塑造听众与读者的思想。而且由于与林肯的友谊，他似乎还影响到了美国的政治。我们来谈谈道格拉斯思想的长远影响吧。或许您可以带我们谈谈他的一些至今仍被人铭记的演讲，比如谈谈黑人学者仍在重新解读和研究的一些有关他演讲主题的观点，也可以谈谈更广泛的话题，比如代议制、民主的实现以及宪法完全公平的可能性。

What’s his greatest speech？

他最出色的演讲是哪篇？

John Stauffer: It's hard for me to pick his greatest speech, but certainly one of them, the one I most generally default to is What to the Slave is the Fourth of July.

约翰·斯托弗：我很难挑出他最出色的演讲，不过可以肯定的是，我默认的觉得不错的一篇是《七月四日对美国黑奴有何意义》。

Zachary Davis: July 4th 1852 fell on the Sabbath, a day of religious observance when people abstained from work. So Douglass gave the speech on July 5th.

扎卡里·戴维斯：1852年7月4日是安息日。这是一个宗教节日，当天人们不可以工作。所以道格拉斯在7月5日发表了演讲。

John Stauffer: Douglass had a great sense, a brilliant sense of who his audience was. And he would change the tone and the tenor of his speeches, depending on his audience. If he spoke to Africans, mostly an African-American audience, he was much more militant and much more revolutionary. If he spoke to white women, he downplayed the use of violence. If he spoke to more conservatives, etc.. He was really good at knowing his audience and giving them the message, but in a rhetoric and a tone that they could accept, that they could appreciate. And this audience was mostly whites, disproportionately large number of women.

约翰·斯托弗：道格拉斯有很强的听众意识。他会根据听众的情况来改变演讲的语气和音调。如果他的听众主要是美国黑人，他将更慷慨激昂、更富有革命性。如果他的听众是白人女性，他演讲的情绪就不会那么激烈。如果听众偏保守派，他又会采取相应的策略。他真的很善于了解听众，用他们接受并欣赏的修辞手法和语气来传递信息。这篇演讲的听众主要是白人，其中很大一部分是女性。

John Stauffer: And What to the Slave is the Fourth of July—It's the best way to characterize it as a American jeremiad. Jeremiad is from the Bible. And it's a song or story of lament that seeks to inspire the reader or the listener to become an activist and recover the ideals and realize the ideals that had been lost and to restore the society or the nation to its former possibility of greatness.

约翰·斯托弗：对于《七月四日对美国黑奴有何意义》来说，最恰当的描述是它是美国版的《耶利米书》。《耶利米书》是圣经中的一卷。这篇演讲是一曲悲歌，激励着读者或听众投身于废奴运动，恢复或实现丢失已久的美国理想，让国家与社会恢复往日的荣光。

John Stauffer: So he begins his speech by focusing because it's Fourth of July speech, by focusing on the founders, and rightly acknowledges the founders—almost all the founders—were genuinely anti-slavery. So he looks at this moment of greatness and the declaration which invokes the essential premise of democracy, equality and freedom. And he emphasizes, he points out that Washington freed his slaves and circulates the freedom of his slaves as he does it in his will, but circulates it. And he's the first American, so to speak. It's like a message for other statesmen to do the same thing.

约翰·斯托弗：因为演讲关于安息日，所以在开头道格拉斯着重在讲美国国父，并且提到几乎所有的国父都反对奴隶制。他回顾了那个伟大时刻以及宣扬民主、平等、自由等基本理念的《独立宣言》。他提到，华盛顿在遗嘱中提到要释放自己的奴隶，给予他们自由。他可以说是第一个这么做的美国人。这似乎向其他政治家传递了一个信号，鼓励他们也这么做。

Zachary Davis: According to Douglass, Washington, who was the nation’s first president, was sending a very clear message. And he wasn’t the only one. During and following the American Revolution, when the US colonies gained their independence from Britain, several northern states outlawed slavery. By 1805, slavery was illegal in all northern states, but it continued to exist in the south for another 60 years.

扎卡里·戴维斯：按照道格拉斯的说法，美国第一任总统华盛顿传达了一个非常明确的信号。而且他不是唯一一个这么做的。美国独立战争时期，美国殖民地脱离了英国而独立，之后北部几个州宣布奴隶制为非法。到了1805年，奴隶制在所有北部州都是非法的，但在南方仍然继续存在了60年。

John Stauffer: So the first part of the speech is let's look back to the founders as inspirations by beginning the speech of the with the founders, he puts his audience at ease. You are Americans. Look at the founders, they're Americans. You should feel good and proud of this nation's founding. So in the past and then in the present, he just rips his audiences and American society apart and highlights this profound declension.

约翰·斯托弗：演讲的第一部分是回顾国父们的故事，他以此来在演讲的开头激励听众，但又不让他们觉得别扭。你是美国人，而那些国父也是美国人。你应当为美国的建国而骄傲。他通过今昔对比，激起听众对社会现状的不满，并强调这种现状在恶化。

John Stauffer: The church is complicit with slavery. Business, every slavery is marinated throughout. Pro-slavery is marinated throughout society. Racism is marinated throughout society. And that's most of the speech is the degree to which slave, slavery and pro-slavery thought marinates every aspect of American life.

约翰·斯托弗：教堂与奴隶制度沆瀣一气，商业的每个毛孔也都渗透着奴隶制。奴隶制有积极影响，这个观念在整个社会中无处不在。种族主义也无处不在。演讲中大部分篇幅都是在讲奴隶制度与亲奴隶制思想如何渗透到了社会的各个角落。

John Stauffer: And then the second reversal is at the end, and it's looking to the future. And he says I end where I began with hope, and the hope, there's this possibility of radical transformation. He believed in a sharp break from the declension of the growth of slavery and the power of the speech is truly profound.

约翰·斯托弗：到了结尾，道格拉斯再次话锋一转，展望未来。他说，那我就带着希望，以开头的话题来结尾；我饱含希望，是因为这一切可能会发生根本转变。他相信奴隶制的发展势头在减弱，奴隶制最终会被瓦解。他的演讲确实很有感染力。

Zachary Davis: In 1865, President Lincoln signed the emancipation proclamation, freeing all American slaves. As a young child, Douglass had been told that teaching a slave to read was the surest way to unfit him for slavery—he had learned that reading and writing was his most powerful tool. Throughout his life, he used that tool to work toward, and finally achieve, his greatest mission: destroying slavery.

扎卡里·戴维斯：1865年，林肯总统签署了《解放黑人奴隶宣言》，解放了美国所有奴隶。道格拉斯小时候被告知，让奴隶摆脱奴隶制的最佳方法就是教会他们阅读，于是他知道了读书和写作是他最有力的工具。在他的一生中，他一直在利用这个工具来实现他最大的使命——消灭奴隶制。最终他的愿望实现了。

Zachary Davis: Writ Large is a production of Ximalaya. Writ Large is produced by Galen Beebe, Jack Pombriant, and me, Zachary Davis, with help from Feiran Du, Ariel Liu, Wendy Wu, and Monica Zhang. Our intern is Liza French, and our theme song is by Ian Coss. Don’t miss an episode. Subscribe today in the Ximalaya app. Thanks for listening.

扎卡里·戴维斯：本节目由喜马拉雅独家制作播出。感谢您的收听，我们下期再见！