谁在制造虚假？（一）Whose fake news？（1）

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谁在制造虚假新闻？（一）Whose fake news？（1）

CHRIS HATZIS 
Eavesdrop on Experts, a podcast about stories of inspiration and insights. It’swhere expert types obsess, confess and profess. I’m Chris Hatzis. Let’seavesdrop on experts changing the world - one lecture, one experiment, oneinterview at a time.

CHRIS HATZIS 
Fake news. We just can't get away from it. It’s a new era for journalism andit's getting harder and harder for the public to distinguish between the realand the fake. False information can catch on and quickly spread thanks to oursocial media-driven world. The resulting reality is fascinating and polarising,perhaps even contributing to the rise in populism and demagoguery.

So what is the responsibilityfor journalists? 

Our reporter Steve Grimwadecaught up with Dana Milbank, nationally syndicated op-ed columnist with The Wst Post, to chat about fake news, the ethics of Wikileaks, Russianhackers, his experiences in covering American politics since 2000 and muchmore. Dana was recently in Melbourne as a guest of the School of Social andPolitical Sciences at the University of Melbourne. 

STEVE GRIMWADE 
I guess I'm interested in how you describe your own work as an op-ed columnistand how you perceive other people and how they describe your work as an op-edcolumnist. 

DANA MILBANK 
Well, I have people describing my work in all kinds of ways that we wouldn'tmention in a family podcast. All you need to do is look at social media or the comments section, and I have my supporters and I certainly have my detractorsout there. 

But that's - it doesn't matter so much, whatmatters is that people are reading it so it's fine by me if they're stirred upfavourably or unfavourably. I look at what I do as just an extension of being areporter, a journalist. I think people often make a real dichotomy between somebodywho's writing an op-ed, an opinion writer, versus a straight news journalist. 

But I think the best opinion writing is really just reported journalism that's based on talking with people, observing things, andthen it just has an added point of view. I see it as a natural extension ofnews reporting; that's what I do now. 

STEVE GRIMWADE 
I've heard people describe what you do and op-ed columnists more generally aspolitical theatre or as covering political theatre. Is that a fair description of what you're currently doing, is it fair of politics more generally, and if it is true, doesn't it reduce politics to pantomime?

DANA MILBANK 
Well, I actually have in the past described what I do as writing about the politicaltheatre, the theatrics of what we see in Wst. I modelled the columnsomewhat after the parliamentary sketches. I used to be a London correspondent, for The WSJ, and I liked the way they wrote about parliamentthere - obviously, we have a different governing system - so I tried to dosomething similar to that there. Obviously, I do a great deal more than justwriting about whatever theatrics are occurring that day. 

Also, in the Trump era it's not- I think the label probably doesn't apply as well because everything has nowbecome one big theatre. To me, everybody says oh, you must be having so muchfun, it's such a crazy, funny time but things are so consequential that I don'tfind it amusing or funny at all. There are certainly funny elements of what thePresident does and the people around him, but they're very - it's causing veryserious problems for our country and for the world. I guess what I'm saying isI do agree with you that the notion of saying it's just about theatre nowreduces it and doesn't recognise the very serious consequences of what's goingon.

STEVE GRIMWADE 
Has it changed dramatically just with Trump, and has it gone from evenShakespearian theatre to now to just broad entertainment?

DANA MILBANK 
Well, there has always been an element of this in American politics andprobably in your politics as well. I've seen - I arrived in Wst, I thinkit was 1995, and things I thought then had really fallen apart. We'd begun tolose the notion of working together, bipartisan cooperation, consensusbuilding. But of course, now you look back those were the good old days andthings have continued to deteriorate through the Clinton Administration, theBush Administration, the Obama Administration, now the Trump Administration. 

Things are much worse underTrump, but he's - basically what he did is he exploited the system we havethat's all about celebrity and entertainment and branding. So he is the logicalextreme of what we've been setting up all along the way. 

STEVE GRIMWADE 
You mentioned before an English correspondent that you were modelling yourselfon. What was it about that correspondent that you wanted to capture?

DANA MILBANK 
It was less a - I mean there were guys like Matthew Parris in London, but itwasn't any particular correspondent. It's the notion of the sketch writer, thatyou're basically creating a visual sketch with your words to describe, to givepeople a portrait of what's happening, in their case in parliament, in my casewhat's happening at the White House in the capital, at the Supreme Court andother venues around Wst to give people a picture of what's actuallyhappening, to give them more insight.

STEVE GRIMWADE 
You do that very well indeed, and just recently at a lecture at the Universityof Melbourne you spoke about doing a piece on Trump, and indeed on visiting theTrump Hotel, and you then recited this list of items that were in your room atthe Trump Hotel and where they'd come from. The list is extensive and there'snot many made-in-the-US-of-A products in that room. So you make a greatinvestigative reporter, turning things over, but it was the humour, it's theirony, it's your perspective that makes it an op-ed piece. How do your ownviews and your own narrative style inform your work?

DANA MILBANK 
Well, I did go through that entire room and I think the only thing made in theUnited States was the chocolates, so he did have something there that wasAmerican-made. I think ideally I like to find the absurd but not for the sakeof absurdity, the ideas, you use that to illustrate a larger point. In thatcase it wasn't just to point out everything here comes from another country,it's the notion of hypocrisy that here is this man running as a protectionistto make sure everything is made in America and well, his company has the option- all the things in that room are also made in America, he just decided topurchase them, as everybody else does, from China and from India and a lot ofthem from Europe. I'm not sure there were any Australian-made goods in theroom, but that was an oversight that I hope they correct. 

STEVE GRIMWADE 
Your presidential voting record is unique, if what I've heard is correct. Ibelieve you claim to vote for the best person that's not on the ticket. Is thatcorrect?

DANA MILBANK 
It has been for many years. I just figured rather than declare allegiance orloyalty in an election - some of my colleagues don't vote. Of course, we don'thave to in the United States, and a large number of people don't, but I feel it'sa civic duty to vote, and I do vote for offices down the ballot, but what Ilike to do is write in who I think would be a terrific president, and there'sbeen a mixture of those. 

Now, I have to say in this lastelection when it was a choice of Donald Trump or Hillary Clinton I did vote forClinton because again, I think we're in completely uncharted territory here andI just felt that my voice needed to be saying no, I'm voting against DonaldTrump rather than just a symbolic write-in. I live in the District of Columbiawhere more than 90 per cent of the votes are Democratic anyway so it'ssomething of a throwaway.

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