【英文翻译版40】史蒂芬妮·德古耶：《鲁滨逊漂流记》

Consequences of turning a deaf ear to his parents

不听爸妈言，吃亏在眼前

Zachary Davis: No matter the decade or century, some books appear just as relevant to modern ideas and issues as they did in their own time. While these works often draw on universal themes, they also leave space for contemporary readings.

扎卡里·戴维斯：有的书不论过去了十年还是一百年，在当下都仍然有着强烈的现实意义。尽管这些作品讲述了普遍的主题，但也为当代读者留下了灵活解读的空间。

Zachary Davis: One such text has been so thoroughly woven into the fabric of Western culture, that its influence can be seen in movies, TV shows, books, and even economic frameworks. Daniel Defoe’s 1719 novel Robinson Crusoe has inspired some of history’s greatest thinkers, and continues to shape how we think about Western culture.

扎卡里·戴维斯：其中一本书便是如此。它已经深深融入了西方文化的骨髓中，在电影、电视节目、书籍乃至经济学原理中都可以看到它的踪影。这本书便是丹尼尔·笛福1719年发表的小说《鲁滨逊漂流记》。这部小说启发了一些史上最伟大的思想家，也一直影响着我们对西方文化的看法。

Stephanie DeGooyer: Robinson Crusoe is like a sponge for readings. And that has to do with, I think, the kind of core allegory, which is the island. It's just such a capacious set of piece for thinking. And it's really become, you know, the idea of the man alone on the island, a core myth about Western capitalism and civilization. I am Stephanie DeGooyer. Currently I'm a Fredrick Burkhart fellow at UCLA.

史蒂芬妮·德古耶：对读者来说，《鲁滨逊漂流记》就像是一块海绵。我觉得之所以能从中挤压出丰富的内涵，是因为书中对荒岛生活的描写仿佛一段重要的寓言，留给我们无尽的思考空间。独自在荒岛求生已经成了西方资本主义与文明中的重要传奇。我是史蒂芬妮·德古耶，今年获得了弗雷德里克·布尔哈特研究奖学金，目前在加州大学洛杉矶分校做研究。

Zachary Davis: Robinson Crusoe provides readers with a close look at not only the isolated human on an individual level, but also humanity on the international level through its depictions of global trade and economics.

扎卡里·戴维斯：鲁滨逊·克鲁索带领读者领略了全球贸易与经济的景象，让他们不仅能细致入微地观察单个个体，还可以从全球视角出发观察整个人类。

Stephanie DeGooyer: Because everybody's been interested in the island, what happens to Robinson Crusoe on the island and how he builds and fortifies a life for himself. But all of this irrelevant detail about his ventures in Brazil and in Africa and Morocco, that's what fascinates me. It’s about how somebody in the late or mid-17th century could be travelling the world and joining the companies of foreign empires and making quite a substantial fortune for himself outside of England.

史蒂芬妮·德古耶：人们都对荒岛生活很感兴趣，想知道鲁滨逊·克鲁索在荒岛上遭遇了什么、又如何亲手搭建起了自己的生活。但整本书让我着迷的，并不是这方面的内容，而是他在巴西、非洲和摩洛哥的商业经历。它展现了一个17世纪中后期的人，如何游历全世界，加入了一个别的帝国的公司，在英国之外的地方赚取了大量财富。

Zachary Davis: Welcome to Writ Large, a podcast about how books change the world. I’m Zachary Davis. In each episode, I talk with one of the world’s leading scholars about one book that changed the course of history. For this episode, I sat down with Professor Stephanie DeGooyer to discuss Daniel Defoe’s Robinson Crusoe.

扎卡里·戴维斯：欢迎收听：100本改变你和世界的书，在这里我们为大家讲述改变世界的书籍。我是扎卡里·戴维斯。每一集，我都会和一位世界顶尖学者探讨一本影响历史进程的书。在本集，我和史蒂芬妮·德古耶教授一起丹尼尔·笛福的《鲁滨逊漂流记》。

Zachary Davis: Would you mind giving us a summary of the story for people who don't know what happens in this book?

扎卡里·戴维斯：有些听众可能不了解这本书的情节，您可以帮大家概括一下吗？

Stephanie DeGooyer: The book sort of begins with Robinson Crusoe narrating his life and history from the perspective of who his family is. He mentions that he has this calling to go to sea that is very much against the wishes of his parents, who don't want him to go. And he defies them. And he arranges with a captain he meets to take his maiden voyage. And on that first voyage, he meets a disastrous storm and shipwreck. And he ends up back in England, and a sea captain who he meets says, “Well, you should take that as a sign that you should never go to sea again.”

史蒂芬妮·德古耶：在书的开头，鲁滨逊·克鲁索从自己的家庭背景出发，介绍了自己的生活经历。他说自己一直渴望航海，但父母坚决反对。不过他不顾父母意见，和一位同伴一起进行了初次航海。航海途中，他遭遇了风暴，险些遇难，幸而最后得以返回岸边。一位船长告诫他：“你应该把这次出海看作一个警告，叫你不要再出海。”

Stephanie DeGooyer: And of course, Robinson goes to sea again, and on this particular voyage, he's captured and enslaved in Morocco for, I think, two years. And he engineers an escape by convincing his master to outfit a fishing boat for a long voyage, and then when they're on the voyage, Robinson sort of turns a gun on the master and boots him off the ship and sets sail where he ends up meeting a Portuguese captain who takes him to Brazil. And then in Brazil, he discovers the lucrative slave plantations, and he wants to be one of these planters as well.

史蒂芬妮·德古耶：然而鲁滨逊再次出海。在这次他被虏到了摩洛哥，做了两年奴隶。他想要伺机逃走，于是劝说主人改装小渔船，好用来长时间航行。一次捕鱼途中，他设法从主人那儿逃走，自己则一路航行，最后遇到了一艘葡萄牙商船，随船去了巴西。在巴西，他发现种植园利润颇丰，于是也想加入这行。

Stephanie DeGooyer: And so he sets up a very lucrative plantation for himself, and he's quite rich at this moment. But of course, the calling comes back, and he decides that he's going to, in the name of Portugal, go on a slaving expedition. And it's on his way to Africa to procure more slaves, African slaves, that he meets the disastrous shipwreck that ultimately brings him to the island.

史蒂芬妮·德古耶：他亲自开辟了一个种植园，赚了很多钱。当时他已经很有钱了，怎想却按捺不住对出海冒险的渴望，决定以葡萄牙国王的名义，从非洲买点黑奴回来。在去非洲的路上，他再次遭遇风暴。船只不幸失事，他最终流落到了荒岛。

Stephanie DeGooyer: But then what you have is a sort of diaristic account of Robinson Crusoe taking as much as he can from the shipwreck and—most importantly, some rifles, some cheese, a little bit of drink, and other items and sundry. And then he—you, have a very elaborate, and to my students, tedious accounting of how he domesticates goats, builds himself a fortification, you know.

史蒂芬妮·德古耶：接下来鲁滨逊·克鲁索用近乎日记体的形式讲述了自己如何拼尽全力从失事的船上找到些东西。最重要的是，他找到了几杆枪、几块奶酪、一些酒和一些杂物。接下来情节在我的学生看来很无聊。鲁滨逊讲了自己如何驯化山羊、如何为自己修筑安身之处。

Stephanie DeGooyer: And then eventually, he discovers a footprint on the sand, which is horrifying to him because it indicates, of course, that there's other people on the island. And this is when he discovers that cannibals have been coming to the island. And one of the cannibals that comes to the island, as an enslaved cannibal, is a person he names Friday. And he ultimately rescues Friday and becomes his side man. He teaches him Christianity, the English language.

史蒂芬妮·德古耶：一天，鲁滨逊在沙滩上发现了一个脚印。他很惊慌，因为这意味着岛上还有其他人。后来有一天，一群野人来到了岛上。其中一个野人被俘虏了。鲁滨逊解救了他，并给他起名为“星期五”，让他做自己的仆人。鲁滨逊教会了星期五英语和基督教文化。

Stephanie DeGooyer: And eventually they get off the island, and Crusoe ends up back in England, not before he goes to Brazil, and finds that in his absence, that plantation has been invested, the profits of it, by the Portuguese king and is way more profitable than when he left. So, all those years on the island, when he was making clothes and umbrellas and bread and pots, his plantation was being invested. And he is a very wealthy man by the end of the novel.

史蒂芬妮·德古耶：他们最终离开了荒岛。鲁滨逊回到了英格兰，之后又来到了巴西，发现自己的种植园在这几十年间收归葡萄牙政府，赚了不少利润。这些年，他在荒岛上做衣服、雨伞、面包、花盆，他的种植园也一直在经营着。于是在小说结尾，他成了一个非常富裕的人。

Zachary Davis: And what was it like when this book came out? What was the public reaction, and why do you think people responded to it in such a powerful way?

扎卡里·戴维斯：这本书出版后反响如何？在大众跟前受欢迎吗？您觉得为什么人们会有这样的反应呢？

Stephanie DeGooyer: Many people when it first came out, because Defoe's name wasn't on the title page, many people were led to believe by the kind of prefatory materials that attended the novel that it was a true story. Of course, it's a bit preposterous because the plot has so many romantic elements in it. But people maybe would have read it out of a desire for the travel narrative motif.

史蒂芬妮·德古耶：这本书刚问世的时候，笛福的名字没有印在上面，所以很多读者都受序言的影响，以为这是一个真实的故事。当然，这么想还是有些荒唐，毕竟小说中有很多浪漫的元素。不过很多人可能是出于对航海主题的喜爱，就读了这本书。

Stephanie DeGooyer: His first critic, Charles Gildon, was extremely rough on the narrative. He excoriated it for being very bad writing. I mean, it's written very hastily. And for its religious inconsistencies, which is something I'm interested in as well. Crusoe is Protestant, but then conveniently becomes a Papist in Brazil to buy a plantation, and then he switches back again a few times.

史蒂芬妮·德古耶：查尔斯·基尔顿最先评论了这本书。他大肆批评，说这本小说在叙事上极其粗糙，写得非常仓促，此外，他还批评书中并没有一以贯之的宗教信仰——这也是我觉得很有意思的一点。鲁滨逊最开始是新教徒。后来在巴西，为了方便购买种植园，他又改信天主教。后来他又几度改变自己的信仰。

Stephanie DeGooyer: So, there was an immediate reaction, but we could say, I think by 1900, that there's 200 editions of the novel in English. So, it was read, it was read widely by a lot of people. And it wouldn't have been considered high literature either, which is important. This is a popular genre that lots of people would have been reading.

史蒂芬妮·德古耶：这本书一出版就反响热烈。到了1900年，光是英文版就出版了两百版。很多人都读过它。当然，我们需要注意到，这本书并没有被视为高雅文学。它在市场上颇受欢迎，属于大众文学。

Defoe, whose life was similarly fascinating

笛福，人生精彩不减半

Zachary Davis: Let's go into Defoe's life and how he came to write such a popular novel.

扎卡里·戴维斯：我们来谈谈笛福的生平吧，看看他是如何写出了这本畅销小说。

Stephanie DeGooyer: Defoe's life is almost, if not more fantastical and fascinating than Crusoe's. He's born in 1660. He's the third child, much like Crusoe, of a merchant who's very successful, but not quite gentry, obviously. Defoe is actually born named Foe. That's his last name, but he later adds the "De'' as a kind of stylization that would make him sound more gentlemanlike.

史蒂芬妮·德古耶：笛福的人生经历毫不逊色于鲁滨逊，甚至比他的更精彩迷人。1660年，笛福出生于一个商人家庭，在家排行老三。他的父亲经商很成功，但社会地位并不是很高。笛福最初姓“福”，但后来在姓前面加了一个“笛”字，好让它听起来更像贵族家庭的姓。

Stephanie DeGooyer: But he is, for the beginning portion of his life, a merchant. He trades in hosiery and wine, and he owns a tile factory at some point. He is jailed quite frequently for debts. He becomes a political writer for most of his life, very famously wrote a satire called The Shortest Way with the Dissenters, because he himself was a non-conforming Protestant. That lands him in jail and then on the pillory, which was a very awful form of punishment where you're put in stocks in the public, and, and people can throw things at you.

史蒂芬妮·德古耶：他自己早年也在经商，从事袜子与酒水贸易，还开了一家砖厂。他一生多次因为欠债而进监狱。他还经常发表政治文章，其中一篇便是有名的讽刺作品《消灭不同教派的捷径》。他自己信仰新教而不是国教，所以对当时的宗教压迫非常不满。这本书让他锒铛入狱，他被罚戴着颈手枷示众。这种刑罚非常可怕，因为戴着刑具站在人群面前，人们会朝你扔东西。

Stephanie DeGooyer: But Defoe is actually bizarrely admired, and people famously threw flowers at him when he was on the pillory. Then he becomes a spy for Queen Anne, and he is sent to Scotland to sort of foment the union which would ultimately become the United Kingdom.

史蒂芬妮·德古耶：不过笛福受到了民众的拥护：他们朝他扔的是鲜花。出狱后，他为安妮女王收集情报，被派往苏格兰促成英格兰与苏格兰的统一，这也是日后大不列颠王国的雏形。

Stephanie DeGooyer: So, Defoe was not a novelist or even an imaginary writer for most of his life. It's actually quite late in life that he decides to write a novel. And of course, they weren't called novels at the time. And some people speculate that he needed money, and he had been reading some castaway stories about a man named Alexander Selkirk who had been cast away on a Pacific island, and he had read a number of sources and then decided to try his hand at writing a narrative that he tried to pass off as real.

史蒂芬妮·德古耶：因此，笛福一生中的大部分时间都不在写小说或是虚构作品。其实当他准备写小说的时候，年纪已近很大了。那时候这些虚构的故事还没有被称作“小说”。有人猜测，他写小说是因为手头缺钱。而且那时候他一直在读一个真实的故事。一个叫亚历山大·塞尔柯克的水手流落到了太平洋荒岛上，在岛上生活了几年。笛福翻阅了很多资料，决定尝试写一写这个故事，并且打算营造出一种真实感。

Stephanie DeGooyer: And it was wildly successful, and it produced money. And just about everything that Defoe ever did in his life was either to try and make money as a merchant or to try to be a part of political life. And so Robinson Crusoe in some ways is a great thing for him, a venture for him to do because it satisfies his desire to write, but it doesn't land him in the kind of trouble that his political writing had landed him in. And so he goes on in very quick succession to write a number of books, all amazing: Moll Flanders, Roxana, um, and so forth.

史蒂芬妮·德古耶：小说一炮走红，帮笛福赚了很多钱。笛福此前做过的事情，要么就和经商赚钱有关，要么就和政治有关。《鲁滨逊漂流记》对他来说意义非凡，既满足了他的创作欲，又不会像那些政治文章一样，给他带来牢狱之灾。紧接着，他又写了其他许多精彩的书，比如《摩尔·弗兰德斯》以及《罗克查娜》。

Zachary Davis: Yeah, to me it's, you know, what's unusual about Defoe is he's, you know, something you would almost never seen today: a businessman and a world famous writer. I mean, the way he combined those two is extraordinary.

扎卡里·戴维斯：我觉得这就是笛福与众不同的地方：他既是商人，又是举世闻名的作家。这种职业生涯的组合很不同寻常，即使在当下也不多见。

Stephanie DeGooyer: If you read a biography of his life, the energy of his life—and this is a time where people could die quite quickly, and most children didn't live, and being 40 was ancient—the energy and just the sheer amount of travel he did, and being, you know, being in a debtor's prison or the Old Bailey was awful. And he did those kinds of stints as well.

史蒂芬妮·德古耶：在笛福那个年代，人们的寿命非常短。大部分孩子都会夭折，四十岁已经是古来稀了。如果你了解了笛福的生平，你会觉得这个人竟然精力如此充沛，四处经商游历，蹲过监狱，还上过英国中央刑事法庭。鲁滨逊经历过的，他也基本上都经历了。

Zachary Davis: I mean, he, he lived on a knife edge, didn't he? I mean, constantly running from debtor, you know, debtor punishment, but he didn't seem to learn. I mean, he really had some kind of pull towards adventure and danger and risk.

扎卡里·戴维斯：但他的生活也充满了风险，经常负债累累，因为债务遭受惩罚。不过他似乎并没有从中吸取教训。我觉得他内心确实向往冒险，乐于接受危险与风险。

Stephanie DeGooyer: Exactly. He also had a pull towards trade, but he was, it's hard to say this, but he wasn't very good at it. I mean, his tile factory... He had good instincts, you could say, but he was bad at managing business. And over and over he runs over his accounts, has to borrow money from his brother-in-law. You know, but he strikes out again. So, in some ways, turning to the novel was a kind of venture that combined both of his talents, which are writing and business. And then a little bit of a safer one because he's not going to have the queen become angry at him and be tried for sedition.

斯蒂芬妮·德古耶：没错。他喜欢从事贸易，但你很难说他有多擅长。他的砖厂最后也被卖掉了。他有很好的商业嗅觉，但管理经营非常糟糕。好几次，他都把积蓄赔了个精光，不得不找妹夫借钱，结果又破产了。所以从某种角度上看，写小说倒也可以把他在经商和写作这两方面的才能结合起来。而且这样也安全得多，不会触怒女王，也不会因为煽动民众的罪名进监狱。

Zachary Davis: Although Defoe did make some money from his writings, he wasn’t able to hold onto any of it for long and was often in debt. In 1731 he died while hiding from his creditors to avoid going back to debtor’s prison. So, let's go into some of the themes of the text. You know, I'm curious about both what was Defoe maybe trying to say through the text, but also what does the text itself say, which may be, you know, different ways it's been read over time?

扎卡里·戴维斯：尽管笛福从写小说中赚了一点钱，但他手里的钱总是攥不长，仍然经常负债累累。1731年，笛福去世。去世前他还在躲避债务。我们现在再来谈谈《鲁滨逊漂流记》的主题吧。我很好奇笛福想要通过这个小说表达什么，也很好奇人们是如何解读这本小说的，特别是这几百年间，人们有哪些不同的解读。

Stephanie DeGooyer: We don't really know what Defoe wanted to say with the text, but there have been generations of readings of it. There's Rousseau’s, there is Marx's, there is...later there's Coleridge’s, there's Charles Gilden. And then in the ‘50s, 1950s, you get English literary criticism’s most famous reading, which is through Ian Watt, who was a very seminal literary critic who focuses on the individualism of the novel. But each one of these readings has at some point become critiqued itself. So, we never really get at a pure meaning of the text.

史蒂芬妮·德古耶：我们并不知道笛福想要表达什么。不过自打小说出版后，好几代人都给出了自己的理解。卢梭、马克思、柯勒律治还有查尔斯·基尔顿都对它做了评价。到了20世纪50年代，你会看到伊恩·瓦特的解读，堪称英国文学评论中最为出众的解读。伊恩·瓦特非常关注小说中的个人主义，是一位影响非常深远的文学评论家。不过所有这些评论有时也被人诟病，所以我们也无法知道这部小说的真正涵义是什么。

Stephanie DeGooyer: But then you have by 1948 or so, the framers of The Universal Declaration of Human Rights are looking at the core myth of what does man need to be successful? What kind of rights does he need? And they're invoking Crusoe. So it's been a powerful set piece for a lot of different arguments. And some are better than others, I would say. Some have more evidence. But what Defoe is trying to do is still an open question. I think he was definitely reading a lot of sources about castaways. But it can say a lot of things in such a simple conceit. It's interesting.

史蒂芬妮·德古耶：到了1948年前后，《世界人权宣言》的起草者注意到鲁滨逊的传奇故事，开始思考什么能让人类成功、需要赋予人类哪些权利。他们从鲁滨逊的经历中汲取灵感。所以说这个故事激发了许多不同的观点，其中有些要胜过其他，有些有更多的证据支撑。但我们仍然无法知道笛福本人到底想要表达什么。我敢说，他一定读了许多关于海难者在荒岛上生活的资料。这么一个简简单单的设定竟然可以容纳这么多内容，这点真的很有意思。

What do philosophers and economists think of Crusoe?

哲学家和经济学家如何理解鲁滨逊？

Zachary Davis: Let's go into a way of reading the texts which is about the relationship between a human and society and nature. What does isolation do to Robinson Crusoe, and what are the ideas that are contained in that depiction?

扎卡里·戴维斯：我们不妨来看看，这本书中人类、社会以及自然这三者之间的关系吧。独处对鲁滨逊有什么作用？这段情节展现了哪些思想？

Stephanie DeGooyer: The earliest—I mean, I think if we think about this today from our modern lens, and if you think of putting a person on an island for 36 years with limited resources, I think we would, we would conceptualize something like Lord of the Flies, something that would quickly turn catastrophic. But interestingly, the first good reading, I think, of the solitariness of the individual is Rousseau’s, who recommends Robinson Crusoe as the book, indeed, the only book, that's necessary for a natural education. Rousseau was very interested in what we know and who we are before civil society corrupts us.

史蒂芬妮·德古耶：如果按照现在的想法，我们肯定会觉得，如果一个人在荒岛上待了三十六年，资源都很匮乏，那情况肯定会像《蝇王》中描写的那样，非常可怕。但有意思的是，第一个肯定了这种隐士般生活的人竟然是卢梭。他认为这本书是唯一一本自然教育所必需的书。卢梭想知道，在社会还没有腐蚀一个人的内心时，这个人知道什么、又是怎样的。

Zachary Davis: Jean-Jacques Rousseau was an 18th century Swiss philosopher living in France. He was interested in human nature outside the influence of civil society. Rousseau believed that people are born good, but over time, are corrupted by society.

扎卡里·戴维斯：让·雅克·卢梭是18世纪居住在法国的日内瓦哲学家。他喜欢研究在受社会影响之前，人类的天性是怎样的。卢梭相信人性本善，但随着人慢慢长大，他们的内心会渐渐被社会腐蚀。

Stephanie DeGooyer: So, someone like Rousseau would look at, did look at Crusoe as a book about the solitary individual and what one is capable of outside of the frameworks of civil society, the myth of the state of nature. But of course, Rousseau didn't really pick up on the theme of labor, and that would really become something that would occupy other people: rational actor economics.

史蒂芬妮·德古耶：所以卢梭认为《鲁滨逊漂流记》以一个个体的独居生活为切口，展现了个体如何在社会框架之外行事，是一个关于人类自然本性的传奇故事。当然，卢梭没有关注到“劳动”这个主题。而关注这一主题的另有其人，他们就是研究“理性人”的经济学家。

Stephanie DeGooyer: What would you do to produce for yourself absent of a larger social structure, right? You would make only enough that you need. You would make decisions based on the imminence of their use, as opposed to the capital gains of selling them and such. So, then the book becomes interesting on that score, too, thinking about what we need and how we would make it and the rest. So, those are the kinds of things that become interesting for the scope of individualism, as well. For economics, at least.

史蒂芬妮·德古耶：在缺乏大型社会组织的情况下，你必须自给自足，必须生产足够多的、你需要的东西。你做决策的依据不再是售卖这些东西的利润空间，而是对它们的需求迫切程度。这本书探讨了我们需要什么、如何实现我们的需求等等。从这个层面上讲，它还挺有意思的。以上就是个人主义视角、或者至少是经济学视角下，这本书的一些有意思的点。

Zachary Davis: Why have economists been so interested in this book? What does it say about the natural economy and what does it say about trade?

扎卡里·戴维斯：经济学家为什么对这本书这么感兴趣？书中是如何看待自然经济和贸易的呢？

Stephanie DeGooyer: I think it's invoked very often today in mainstream economics as an example of through the so-called “homo economicus”. Right? An example of systems building or the rational actor, economic behavior. Right? This is essentially what Crusoe demonstrates. So, it's been a good example of economic behavior and rational acting.

史蒂芬妮·德古耶：这本书常常被主流经济学家用来当作“经济人假设”的例子，鲁滨逊就是经济活动中的一个典型的“经济人”。这就是《鲁滨逊漂流记》本质上所阐释的内容。所以，鲁滨逊一直被看作理性经济人的典型例子。

Stephanie DeGooyer: It's not a great example if you look at the core of the novel, which is the island of trade, because for so much of the novel, Crusoe is really only dealing with himself. And trade is what happens in the world outside of the novel, the pieces that bookend it, the stuff, um, the global slave trade. And so one of the criticisms of a reading, like a famous reading, like Rousseau’s of rational economics is that it really isn't interested in the wider set piece of the novel, which is the global slave trade in the inter-imperial global slave trade, too, right?

史蒂芬妮·德古瓦：但是如果你关注小说的核心内容，就会发现这个例子并不是那么典型。在小说的大部分篇章中，荒岛上的鲁滨逊都过着自给自足的生活。而小说之外的世界要复杂得多，有各种贸易，甚至还有全球奴隶贸易。所以，有人批评卢梭、经济学家等人的解读都过于狭窄，没有关注到这本小说当时的时代背景，也就是全球奴隶贸易和帝国之间的贸易。

Stephanie DeGooyer: You have all of these empires trading with each other. In some ways, the traffic of human beings. That all gets sort of subtended, and the novel itself becomes a sort of thinking example of how you would make things and how you would create an economy for yourself. Later when people do come to the island, Crusoe has to sort of think about his stockpiles differently. But essentially, he is somebody whose labor hasn't been alienated from himself on the island. And that's been what's interesting.

史蒂芬妮·德古耶：这些帝国之间进行着贸易往来。从某种程度上讲，这也是人类之间的贸易往来。可是这些内容全都被忽视了。这本小说仅仅变成了一部讲述劳动与生产、讲述建立自给自足经济体的故事书。虽然说，后来当其他人来到了这个荒岛时，鲁滨逊也开始以不同的方式思考资源生产与分配。但本质上讲，他在岛上过的还是自给自足的生活。这就是有意思的地方。

Zachary Davis: Could you tell us a little bit more about the context of global commerce and, you know, imperial trade that's happening? I mean, what was going on in the wider world in which the novel is set?

扎卡里·戴维斯：您能跟我们讲讲这本书的现实背景吗？当时全球贸易与帝国间的贸易是如何开展的？在现实中，小说所处的这个时代发生了什么事情？

Stephanie DeGooyer: In the 1690s, you have a financial revolution in England. And this is not the same thing as the industrial revolution that you would get in the 19th century, right? That, the stuff of Dickens and sooty London and huge factories and large overseas colonies that are benefiting England. This is the sort of earlier version of this, when trade is being enhanced. England's empire is not as strong as it would be.

史蒂芬妮·德古耶：17世纪90年代，英国掀起了一场金融革命。这与19世纪的那场工业革命不太一样。后者发生在狄更斯那个时代，带给英国满是煤烟的伦敦、大型工厂以及大片利润丰厚的海外殖民地。而17世纪的这场金融革命只是后者的前奏，当时，英国的贸易尚不繁荣，帝国的实力也没有后来那么强。

Stephanie DeGooyer: And at the time, I don't have the numbers before me, but I, I think Portugal is near the top of slave trading empires, and so is France. And so England hasn't invested as heavily. Of course, it has the Americas, but it hasn't, hasn't...Its height as an empire isn't there yet. And so you have this financial revolution that's based on speculation, credit, trade, overseas trade. And it's really the advent to some historians of what we today would call globalization, the idea that you can be sitting in your London office making money all around the world through trade.

史蒂芬妮·德古耶：我没有具体的数字，不过17世纪的时候，奴隶贸易开展得最多的应该是葡萄牙和法国。英国在这方面还没有投入那么多。英国当时虽然有北美殖民地，但和其他几国相比，还不太能称得上是帝国。接着英国便掀起了金融革命，投资、信贷、海外贸易纷纷发展起来。一些历史学家认为这场革命甚至揭开了全球化的序幕，你可以坐在伦敦的办公室里，通过贸易在全球各地赚钱。

Stephanie DeGooyer: And that's definitely something that Daniel Defoe, like John Locke, were interested in. In other words, they weren't interested in colonization in the Spanish sense of taking over and punishing. They were really interested in new markets. New markets, on the one hand, for consumption in England and new markets elsewhere for the consumption of other goods.

史蒂芬妮·德古耶：这也绝对是约翰·洛克以及丹尼尔·笛福等人感兴趣的。换而言之，他们感兴趣的不是像西班牙那样开辟殖民地，掠夺那儿的财富。他们真正感兴趣的是新市场，是在英国以及世界各地为各种商品开辟新市场。

Stephanie DeGooyer: So this is the dawn of the financial revolution that sets up this book, but not importantly, the industrial revolution, which is why I think some of the readings of empire and slavery have to be a little careful about the time periods that they're thinking through when they read the novel.

史蒂芬妮·德古耶：这就是金融革命的曙光，也是这本书的背景。但这个和工业革命不太一样，所以我觉得如果要从帝国扩张和奴隶贸易这方面来解读这本书的话，一定要注意书中的时间线。

Is it about colonialism?

是否带有殖民主义色彩？

Zachary Davis: This book is often, or at least sometimes, linked to colonialism, and the encounters have, you know, many of the tropes that we relate to kind of colonial logic in terms of “Western-educated person enlightening the local savages”. Is this a fair reading of the book? And, if not, what's a more accurate reading of its relationship to colonialism?

扎卡里·戴维斯：人们有时候会把这本书和殖民主义联系在一起，认为主人公与异域群体之间的碰撞喻指了英国与其殖民地，似乎在彰显“西方的文明人如何启迪了当地的野蛮人”。您觉得这样的解读合理吗？如果不合理的话，那要如何看待这本书和殖民主义之间的关系呢？

Stephanie DeGooyer: The root of the word “colonization,” part of its definition is, means “attachment to the parent state”. So, a colony is an offshoot of a nation that is really set up as a kind of vessel that will then send money back to the colony. Here as I mentioned, Crusoe's relationship to England is really unclear. First of all, he's marooned. He's also become a Papist in Brazil. And so on, on the kind of technical level, whether he's colonizing in the name of England is unclear.

史蒂芬妮·德古耶：“殖民化”一词词根的一部分意思是“隶属于宗主国”。所以殖民地相当于一个国家的分支，资金可以通过殖民地流回宗主国。但正如我刚刚所说，小说中鲁滨逊与英国之间的关系非常模糊。他不仅在荒岛上待了三十多年，在巴西的时候他还皈依了天主教。所以严格来说，我们很难讲他是在以英国的名义进行殖民。

Stephanie DeGooyer: But then there's other aspects to this in which Crusoe never thinks of himself as a colonizer. In fact, he only says at one point in the novel that he thinks of the island as being his by inheritance, which is sort of tapping into sort of more of the property-based assumptions of England, than direct, brute colonization. And then, of course, Defoe himself was no advocate of colonization. He was more of a proponent of trade, creating new markets to trade with.

史蒂芬妮·德古耶：而且，鲁滨逊也从来没把自己看作殖民者。实际上，他在小说中仅仅提到过一次，说这个小岛的主权通过继承归自己所有，这更多地意味着这座岛屿从财产权上而言是英国的所有物，而不是简单粗暴地将它占为自己的殖民地。当然，笛福自己并不支持殖民。他只是支持贸易，想要开辟新的贸易市场。

Stephanie DeGooyer: So, but nonetheless, you still have a novel that's about a European who shows up on an island, and the first more indigenous persons he meets—of course, they're not from the island, but they're from a nearby nation—he sees himself as superior to them. So, you can definitely see why people like Edward Saïd could see the novel as an allegory of European colonization. It's just not to my mind clearly an example of English colonization, which is how people like James Joyce and Said, who I just mentioned, read the novel.

史蒂芬妮·德古耶：尽管如此，这本小说仍然讲了这么个故事：一个欧洲人来到了一个荒岛，当他在岛上遇到了从附近岛屿而来的野人时，自然而然地觉得自己高他们一等。所以你也不难理解，为什么爱德华·萨义德等人觉得，这本小说可以被视为欧洲殖民主义的寓言。但是在我看来，我并不觉得这本书像詹姆斯·乔伊斯、或是萨义德所说，是英国殖民主义的代表。

Stephanie DeGooyer: They see it as a kind allegory of England's dominance on other nations. And that's not clear to me at all just because Crusoe is too much of an opportunist. At the end of the novel, some English mutineers show up, some Spaniards show up, and of course, Friday’s family show up.

史蒂芬妮·德古耶：他们认为这喻指着英国对其他国家实行殖民统治。这点我不是很确定，因为我觉得鲁滨逊只是个爱投机的人。小说结尾几章出现了一些英国叛乱者、一些西班牙人以及星期五的家人。

Stephanie DeGooyer: And Crusoe has no partiality for the English at all. In fact, he seems to favor the Spaniards, and when he leaves the island, gives it to them for safekeeping. So, he doesn't seem to have the setup of a colonizer in those senses. But nonetheless, it's still very, very much a depiction of racial hierarchies, racism, and slavery.

斯蒂芬妮·德古耶：但鲁滨逊对英国人也没有什么偏爱之情，他似乎与西班牙人交情更好。离开小岛时，还让西班牙人接管小岛。所以他似乎并不是典型的殖民者。不过书里还是有很多关于种族等级、种族主义和奴隶制的内容。

Zachary Davis: When Defoe set out to write Robinson Crusoe, he was well aware of the literary market in England. Books and newspaper articles about adventure and survival were very popular. There was also a new class of readers in England at the time, the middle class. Robinson Crusoe was written for the middle class, starring a middle class hero. For these reasons, Robinson Crusoe has often been referred to as the first modern novel.

扎卡里·戴维斯：笛福着手写《鲁滨逊漂流记》的时候，对英国文学市场非常了解。冒险类、生存类的书籍和报纸文章都很受欢迎。英国当时还诞生了一批新的读者，也就是中产阶级读者。这本小说专门为中产阶级而写，主角也是中产阶级。因此，《鲁滨逊漂流记》常常为视为第一部现代小说。

Stephanie DeGooyer: Scholars, of course, complicate this because we know that prose narratives have existed since ancient Greece. And in that manner, we can't celebrate Robinson Crusoe for doing something that hadn’t been done before. And the word novel itself isn't coined or really used until the 19th century. So in that sense, the kind of idea itself is anachronistic. But Crusoe is special for a variety of reasons that scholars have noted. It is a prose narrative. And on that score, it's not the first, but it really focuses on the empirical depiction of the individual.

史蒂芬妮·德古耶：当然，学者们会对这一点做出更复杂的界定。我们知道，自古希腊时期起就存在叙事性散文这种文体，所以我们不能说《鲁滨逊漂流记》首创了这一文体，而“小说”这个词直到19世纪才被发明或真正运用。所以从这个层面上看，“第一部现代小说”这个用词本身在时间上就有些错乱。不过学者们也指出，《鲁滨逊漂流记》在这几点上非常特别：它是叙事性散文，尽管不是第一部这种体裁的作品，但它非常注重对个体进行经验式的描述。

Stephanie DeGooyer: Importantly, an individual who has no high social standing. He is not a king. He is not of the upper classes. He is a merchant. He is a middle class aspiring merchant. And he is the subject of this book. So, that makes it quite new, the idea that a book could describe an average everyday person and that the reader, when reading the book, could feel that they themselves could be in this position.

史蒂芬妮·德古耶：最重要的是，这里的个体没有很高的社会出身：他并非国王，也并非贵族，而是一个有抱负的中产阶级商人。他是这本书的主要人物。这才是这本书让人耳目一新的原因。它描述了一个普通人，读者在阅读时可以轻松地把自己带入到这个角色中。

Zachary Davis: At the time, the protagonists in stories and plays would typically be from the upper classes of society. Lower class members usually only served as comic relief, hardly ever the hero.

扎卡里·戴维斯：在那个时代，故事和戏剧中的主角往往出自上流阶层。普通人在其中往往只扮演着调节气氛的喜剧式角色，几乎不可能扮演主人公。

Stephanie DeGooyer: But the idea that a merchant would be the centerpiece of a spiritual adventure autobiography is something that we can only really see towards the end of the 17th century, into the 18th century, with the commercial and financial revolution and the shift from a feudal society to new forms of production and readership.So, it's very much a novel of its time that emerges out of those conditions and narrates new forms of responding to them at the same time.

史蒂芬妮·德古耶：直到17世纪末以及18世纪，商业革命和金融革命持续进行，封建社会逐步瓦解，新的生产方式和新的读者群也逐渐出现——直到这时候我们才开始看到，商人慢慢成了冒险故事中的核心人物。所以，这本小说是时代的产物，产生于特定的时代背景中，叙述方式也呼应了那个时代的趋势。

Wait! A female Robinson Crusoe?

等等！还有女性版的鲁滨逊？

Zachary Davis: How does this spread to different readers and different audiences and translations and adaptations?

扎卡里·戴维斯：这本书的翻译和改编情况如何？又是如何传递给了不同的读者和观众？

Stephanie DeGooyer: There is such a secondary field here that has, some scholars have taken on full time of tracking what became called in the 19th century, Robinsonades, which is a whole genre of spin-offs of the novel. By the 19th century, as I mentioned, there was 200 editions of this in English, not to mention all of the translations that persist. The novel was, at this point also, it had been edited into a children's format, and sort of focusing on the island adventures. And so it becomes illustrated, which is really helpful for its advance.

史蒂芬妮·德古耶：19世纪的文学中有这样一个二级体裁，叫“鲁滨逊式小说”，一些学者在专门研究这个体裁。这种体裁完全脱胎于《鲁滨逊漂流记》。正如我之前所说，19世纪前光是英文版的《鲁滨逊漂流记》就出了两百版，加上翻译版的话就更不止这个数了。小说还被改编成了儿童版，聚焦于荒岛上的冒险故事。还出了插图版的，这种也有助于其传播。

Stephanie DeGooyer: But it's so interesting, it just spawns this runaway genre of female Robinson Crusoes across the 19th century. There's a German female Robinson Crusoe, there's an American female Robinson Crusoe. Into the 20th century of course, you have castaway narratives, Lord of the Flies. You have so many spin-offs. You know, there's Wikipedia pages devoted to them. And I think part of it has to do with the castaway setting, about how that can become an allegory for so many things. But it's definitely one of the most widely successful English books ever. And I don't think that's an exaggeration to say that.

史蒂芬妮·德古耶：而且由于整个情节是如此的妙趣横生，甚至整个19世纪还出现了女性版的鲁滨逊的故事。德国和美国都出现了女性版。直到20世纪，都还有与荒岛求生相关的故事，比如《蝇王》。类似的故事实在是太多啦。甚至都还有专门的维基百科词条来介绍它们。我觉得《鲁滨逊漂流记》之所以这么受欢迎，一部分原因是因为荒岛求生这个设定，它可以隐喻太多事情了。不过毋庸置疑的是，《鲁滨逊漂流记》是有史以来最成功的英国书籍之一。我觉得这么说毫不夸张。

Stephanie DeGooyer: And even today, we don't read the original, although I think people should if they can. We certainly consume it in all kinds of all other forms, whether it's through the Survivor television show or films or even kind of science fiction depictions of, you know, man left alone to sort of devise for himself. All of that, I think, is very much responding to the tradition of the Robinsonade genre.

史蒂芬妮·德古耶：如今，很多人都没有读过这本原著，不过我觉得可以的话还是应该读一读。当然我们会从其他的形式中了解类似的情节，比如《幸存者》这档节目、或是电影、或是科幻小说。他们的内容都是一个人被困在某地，需要自己做东西。我觉得所有这些都是鲁滨逊式小说的延续。

Zachary Davis: From its initial publication, Robinson Crusoe has had a prominent place in popular literature where it has remained for over 300 years. It has inspired countless adaptations ranging from fanfiction and television series, to plays and movies. It has inspired some of Western culture’s greatest thinkers, and is still being read and taught around the world today.

扎卡里·戴维斯：自从最初出版之后，这三百多年里《鲁滨逊漂流记》一直在大众文学中占据重要的位置。它衍生出了无数改编的作品，包括同人小说、电视剧、戏剧和电影，还启发了一些西方文化中最伟大的思想家。如今，全球各地仍然有人阅读并教授这本书。

Stephanie DeGooyer: So, I very, very much think it's never really left contemporary culture. And it has travelled the world in all kinds of formats, editions, with illustrations, excisions, spin-offs, piracies, everything. And that is pretty much the mark of a very successful book, and not to mention has been read by some of the more seminal intellectuals in our time, but also certainly in the 19th century. And that on its own, to have Marx writing about you, to have Coleridge making a mention of your book in his famous poem, The Rime of Ancient Mariner, to have Rousseau recommending your book. I mean, those are pretty powerful endorsements.

史蒂芬妮·德古耶：我觉得它已经成了当代文化的一部分，以插图版、删减版、改编版等各种版本传播到世界各地。这足以证明它是一本多么成功的小说。而且，19世纪以及如今的很多知名知识分子都读过这本书。马克思写过关于这本书的文章，柯勒律治在著名的诗歌《古舟子咏》中提到了这本书，卢梭也推荐过这本书。这可都是大咖级的推荐。

Zachary Davis: So, you know, imagine you're at a cocktail party. Imagine, if someone comes up to you and just asks you straight up, how did Robinson Crusoe change the world? What's your answer?

扎卡里·戴维斯：想象一下，假如您出席了一场鸡尾酒会，有人走过来问，《鲁滨逊漂流记》如何改变了世界，您会怎么回答呢？

Stephanie DeGooyer: It gave us a story that was so powerful—and stories can be so much more powerful than theories—that made, you know, made the idea of what are humans capable of on their own? What is the value of their labor? It got us to think about those. It's like a thought experiment that goes way farther than Hobbes or Locke or Rousseau in its thinking. It actually fleshes out the idea of the state of nature, so to speak, and in really powerful ways.

史蒂芬妮·德古耶：故事可以比理论震撼得多。这本书恰恰讲述了一个非常震撼的故事，展现了人类孤自一人时能做什么、他们的劳动价值是什么，也让我们思考这些问题。它像是一场思想实验，而且这场实验比霍布斯、洛克、卢梭等人的挖掘得更深更远。它以一种震撼人心的方式展现了与人类自然本性有关的理念。

Stephanie DeGooyer: And it doesn't surprise me, it didn't surprise me to learn that the framers of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights would have been thinking about Robinson Crusoe as a kind of character study for what a person needs absent of society. So, I think it created a powerful idea. And, and that idea has, of course, been shaped and shifted by other people, but the idea very much has run away from the author himself and becomes something that we can think about for a variety of means. So, I think that's its power.

史蒂芬妮·德古耶：《世界人权宣言》的起草者认为，《鲁滨逊漂流记》探讨了人在脱离社会时需要什么。当我得知这一点时，我一点都不惊讶。因为这本书提出了一个意义深远的观点，而这个观点显然已经被其他人所加工，远远偏离了作者的原意。我们可以以各种方式来思考它。这就是这本书的伟大之处。

Zachary Davis: Writ Large is a production of Ximalaya. Writ Large is produced by Jack Pombriant and me, Zachary Davis, with help from Liza French, Ariel Liu, Wendy Wu, and Monica Zhang. Our theme song is by Ian Coss. Don’t miss an episode. Subscribe today in the Ximalaya app. Thanks for listening. See you next time.

扎卡里·戴维斯：本节目由喜马拉雅独家制作播出。感谢您的收听，我们下期再见！