试听180秒【英文原声版11】Michael Tworek：Treatise on the Two Sarmatias

一共是100集中文，100集英文，100集翻译节目

每周更新一集中文精制，一集英语原声，一集英文翻译，已经买过就可以永久收听

英文文稿+中文翻译 

Why was accurate mapmaking on the rise?

人们为何纷纷绘制精确地图？

Zachary Davis: I remember going on road trips as a young kid with my family. And I remember one night we were driving from Atlanta, Georgia, to North Carolina. And it was late, and my mom was trying to direct us using this big, Rand McNally map that we kept in the glove box. And we had gotten off a wrong turn, we had no idea where we were, my parents were frustrated, they were fighting, they were arguing, we had to, like, ask strangers what street we were on. And I remember her squinting over this folded map, and just how hard it was to find your way in new places.

扎卡里·戴维斯：我记得小时候有次和家人一起公路旅行，一天晚上我们开车从佐治亚州的亚特兰大赶去北卡罗来纳州。天色已晚，我母亲试着用放在杂物箱里的那张巨幅兰德·麦克纳利地图来找路线，结果走错方向了，不知道把车开到了哪儿。我父母很沮丧，两个人一直在吵架，我们不得不去问路人我们停在了哪条路上。到现在我都记得，我母亲眯着眼睛，在半卷着的地图上费劲地寻找位置，当时在一个没去过的地方找路实在是太麻烦了。

Zachary Davis: And now, every single day pretty much, I use Google Maps. Like yesterday, I needed to go to this place called WBUR City Space. And I just type it in, it tells me how far away it is, I press directions and it shows me where there’s traffic, it shows me where to turn right, where to turn left. And if I get lost and take a long route, it just knows where I am and reconfigures where I should go.

扎卡里·戴维斯：而如今，每天我都会用到谷歌地图。比如说昨天，我要去波士顿公共广播电台市民活动中心，我只要在App里面输入地址，它就会告诉我到那儿有多远。我点开导航，它就会告诉我路况，告诉我要在哪儿左转或者右转。即使我迷路了，走了冤枉路，它也能实时定位，重新为我规划路线。

Zachary Davis: It’s magical. It’s incredible. It’s amazing. And for most of human history, we had nothing like this. I mean, really, a map for so long was a static object—it showed the roads and the natural landscape, but it didn’t show you where in the world you were. The maps we have now are incredible.

扎卡里·戴维斯：太不可思议了，真的很令人惊讶。人类历史上绝大多数时期，从来没有过这么智能的导航工具。之前那么长的历史中，我们用的都是静态的地图，它告诉你道路分布、地形地貌，但不会显示你在哪里。所以说现在这种地图简直太赞了。

Zachary Davis: But having a map at all is an amazing thing—to have a zoomed out, birds-eye view of the world—of the place where I stand and the places I’ve never even been, and to be able to use this tool to find something out there in the world. This, too, is a relatively recent development.

扎卡里·戴维斯：但不管怎么说，地图的诞生还是令人称奇。有了地图，我们可以拓展视角，俯瞰整个世界，看清自己所处的以及自己还没去过的地方。在地图上，我们还能找到世界上的一些东西。相比于之前，地图的诞生也是一项崭新的进步。

Zachary Davis: It’s true that people have been talking about geography—the study of where things are in the world—for millennia.

扎卡里·戴维斯：毫无疑问，人类研究地理已经几千年了。所谓地理，就是研究事物位于世界的什么地方。

Michael Tworek: Geographic thinking is part of ancient sources throughout the medieval, late antique medieval period all the way up to the Renaissance. People are always talking, where are people from? But it's not exactly exact. Right?

麦克-托雷克：地理知识是整个中世纪、中世纪晚期一直到文艺复兴时期的古代资料之一。大家总是在谈论人们从哪个地方来到这里，但又弄不清具体那是什么地方，对吧。

Zachary Davis: That’s Michael Tworek, an associate in the history department at Harvard University. He studies early modern Europe—a time and place when mapmaking, accurate mapmaking, was on the rise.

扎卡里·戴维斯：这是哈佛大学历史系研究员麦克-托雷克。他研究近代早期的欧洲，当时正是欧洲绘制精确地图的热潮时期。

Michael Tworek: And so when you're trying to create a map, you might say look at earlier maps or attempts at maps, they’re not necessarily ones that are useful. Right? In the sense of being able to follow it and be like, okay, I'm to find this exact location.

麦克-托雷克：你在绘制地图的时候，可能会先看看之前的地图或一些草图，它们不一定有用，对吧。某种意义上可能是这样：你会顺着以前的地图找某个位置，然后再找到它确切的位置。

Zachary Davis: It was the 1500s, and the Europeans’ understanding of the world was changing. They had learned of new lands and explored previously mysterious ones. But when they looked at the old maps, things didn’t always line up.

扎卡里·戴维斯：那时候是16世纪，欧洲人对世界的了解正在改变。他们听说了新大陆，探索了从前不为人知的神秘地区。但当他们查看以前的地图时，发现有的地方对不上。

Michael Tworek: Then you start developing and thinking about, okay, well, we have all these other worlds are not listed antiquity that we've discovered, i.e. the Americas. We have these ancient sources that purport to give certain directions. So trying to take that information and create a map that's reliable, that shows not only what, where everything is and where it's located numerically, but also to show what belongs to me and what doesn't belong to me is very, very important. Right? Where can you stake your claim? Especially when you're beginning to explore on a ship, having a map that's accurate along with other navigational instruments—very, very, very important.

麦克-托雷克：于是你开始琢磨，你想着，我们发现了美国这些新大陆，但之前都没在地图上标出来。这些古代地图帮我们定好了明确的的方位，我们不妨试着用这些已有的地理信息，绘制出新的、可靠的地图，不但标出世界上所有地方在什么位置，用数学方法来把它们标出来，而且最重要的是，要标出来哪些地盘是我的，哪些不是。要标出来哪一块是我的领土。特别是开始航海探索时，一定要有精确的地图和导航工具。

Zachary Davis: This understanding depends on the maps we have actually mapping what’s there. In the 1500s, what was there was up for debate. New mapmakers were pushing back against ancient maps that showed a world they didn’t see, or didn’t believe in.

扎卡里·戴维斯：我们对事物的理解取决于地图，取决于地图上标记了什么。在16世纪，一些确切的位置还悬而未决、有待考证。新的绘图者拒绝使用那些古代地图，那种地图上面描绘着一些他们没见过的、或者他们相信不存在的地方。

Zachary Davis: Take Maciej Miechowita, for example. Miechowita was a polish scholar. In his 1517 text The Treatise on the Two Sarmatias, Miechowita argued that two mountain ranges that were described on maps dating back to antiquity did not, in fact, exist.

扎卡里·戴维斯：其中一个人便是马切伊·梅霍维塔。梅霍维塔是波兰学者。1517年，他在自己的著作《论两个萨尔马提亚》中指出，古代地图上描绘的两座山脉其实并不存在。

Michael Tworek: So when you say that an important geographical feature that's been, you know, laid out in texts, that people who've traveled there have said existed, and then you say doesn't exist, puts all those other maps that list those mountains into question. So, you know, I mean, if I'm using my Google Maps today and I'm hoping to get somewhere and it keeps on saying that this doesn't exist, that kind of anxiety is an important thing that's motivating the reaction to it. But also, you know, whether or not, you think that the authorities that you're reading from antiquity are worth reading. And if not, then you have to find something else. And that's what makes this text particularly bold.

麦克-托雷克：当你提到文本上的重要地理事物时，去过那里的人会说这东西的确存在，可现在你说它们其实都不存在，于是人们开始怀疑标出那些山脉的地图是否权威。打个比方，我现在正在用谷歌地图导航，可它老是说我要去的地方其实并不存在，那我肯定会焦虑得不行。正是这种焦虑感让人们开始采取一些行动来回应。不论如何，你看到的这些古代地图都有参考价值；如果没有，那恐怕你就得去发掘新事物了。这正因为这个，这本书才写得如此大胆。

Zachary Davis: Welcome to Writ Large, a podcast about how books change the world. I’m Zachary Davis. In each episode, I talk with one of the world’s leading scholars about one book that changed the course of history. For this episode, I sat down with Professor Michael Tworek to discuss Miechowita’s Treatise on the Two Sarmatias.

扎卡里·戴维斯：欢迎收听：100本改变你和世界的书，在这里我们为大家讲述改变世界的书籍。我是扎卡里·戴维斯。每一集，我都会和一位世界顶尖学者探讨某一本书带给世界的影响。在本集，我和哈佛大学教授麦克-托雷克一起讨论马切伊·梅霍维塔的《论两个萨尔马提亚》。

Zachary Davis: Maciej Miechowita was born in 1457. He was a physician and a professor at what is today called the Jagiellonian University in Krakow. He was highly educated and studied abroad in Italy before returning to serve several important families in Krakow, as well as the Polish king.

扎卡里·戴维斯：马切伊·梅霍维塔出生于1457年。他是波兰克拉科夫市的雅盖沃大学的博士和教授，曾在意大利留学，接受高等教育，之后任职于克拉科夫的几个贵族家族和波兰宫廷。

Michael Tworek: And he's probably a person you've never heard of, but at the time, he was the first bestselling author from Poland.

麦克-托雷克：或许你没听说过这个人，不过当时，他可是波兰的头号畅销书作家。

Why did Miechowita write this book?

梅霍维塔为什么写这本书？

Zachary Davis: Miechowita had two aims when writing The Treatise on the Two Sarmatias.

扎卡里·戴维斯：在撰写《论两个萨尔马提亚》时，梅霍维塔怀揣着两个目标。

Michael Tworek: The first kind of aim of this text is geographical. It's to say that these mountains that early modern Europeans thought existed, the Riphean and the Hyperborean, they don't exist. And that all ancient authorities, like Ptolemy for instance, and anyone who followed Ptolemy in creating maps, ah, descriptions of Europe and of the world, were absolutely wrong. So when you tell, you know, receive authority that they're absolutely wrong, whether ancient or contemporary in his day, some people who are going to get a little bit upset and maybe potentially attack your work. And that's what exactly happened with his book.

麦克-托雷克：第一个目标是地理方面的。书中认为，近代早期欧洲人以为存在的两座山脉，里菲山和许珀耳玻瑞亚山，也有人译为“北方乐土”山，它们其实并不存在。而且所有古代权威，比如托勒密和参考他的成果绘制地图的人，他们描绘的欧洲和世界都完完全全是错的。当你一口咬定某些权威人士是错的，不管这些权威是古代权威还是当代人，人们听到之后心里多少不是滋味，甚至有可能反而将矛头对准你。梅霍维塔的这本书就因此遭到了人们的不满。

Michael Tworek: Another major aim of this book is it actually rethinks what place Poland plays or where Poland comes from in the world. So essentially it's thinking, okay, we're going to convey to early modern Europeans who are the Poles, what is Poland, what is its relationship to this region called Sarmatia, this book tells you what it is. And it's much more unexpected than scholars ever realize.

麦克-托雷克：写这本书的另一个主要目标是，重新思考波兰在世界的位置和起源。所以从本质上讲，它在思考如何向近代早期的欧洲人介绍，波兰人是谁，什么是波兰，它与萨尔马提亚地区有什么联系。这就是这本书要讲述的内容。这本书比学者们设想的还要出人意料。

Zachary Davis: Miechowita was not alone in these aims.

扎卡里·戴维斯：（实现这两个目标的过程中，）梅霍维塔并不是在单打独斗。

Michael Tworek: In many respects, this work is less his and more of the various patrons, power networks, and figures trying to change the perception of what Poland was and what place it occupied in Europe. So it's very much something where he's handed a task, they tell him we need to fix the public perception of what Poland is—not as barbarians ascended from the Sarmatians, these ancient tribes that wreaked havoc on the ancient Romans, are often seen as kind of the source of the barbarians that came and overran Europe or the Roman Empire, and basically trying to defend Poland's honor in the process. So they kind of hand them this task. They tell him, run with it. And that's what he does.

麦克-托雷克：从很多方面看，与其说这本书归功于梅霍维塔，不如说归功于许多资助人、达官贵人和那些努力扭转人们对波兰看法的人，他们想让大家重新了解波兰是个怎样的国家，在欧洲处于什么位置。可以说他们交给梅霍维塔一项任务，让他扭转普罗大众对波兰的印象。之前人们普遍把波兰人看作发源于萨尔马提亚人的野蛮人的后代。萨尔马提亚是欧洲古代部落民族，曾入侵古罗马帝国，为古罗马带去浩劫。萨尔马提亚人被看做是野蛮人的祖先，践踏着欧洲和罗马帝国。所以他们要求梅霍维塔要做的是在撰写书籍的同时，捍卫波兰的荣誉。这就是他们寄予梅霍维塔的厚望。他们让梅霍维塔写书时时刻谨记这点，他也确实做到了。

Zachary Davis: Tell us about that idea of trying to have a foundational myth on which to base a people.

扎卡里·戴维斯：有人说需要创立缔造人民的基础性神话传说，您跟我们聊聊这个观点吧。

Michael Tworek: It's absolutely essential. This is the standard practice for medieval, early modern Europeans, trying to have that origin story that gives you legitimacy. Right? Especially if you accept the fact that for early modern Europeans living in the Renaissance, you know, with the revival of ancient Roman and Greek culture, literature, you have this imagined golden age. So trying to place yourself in basically succession to what came afterwards is really important. Are your peoples descended from the barbarians that overran the Roman Empire, and if you are, how do you balance that origin with where you are now?

麦克-托雷克：这样做是绝对有必要的。中世纪还有近代早期，欧洲人的标准做法都是这样，创造民族起源的故事，赋予自己合法性，对吧。特别是当你认清一个现实，那就是近代早期欧洲人正在经历文艺复兴，复兴古希腊、古罗马的文化，也就是想象中的中“黄金时代”的文化。所以追根溯源、寻根问祖在当时至关重要。你们民族的祖先是从前侵略罗马帝国的野蛮人吗？如果是，你怎么平衡你们的起源和现状呢？

Zachary Davis: Miechowita positioned the now-civilized Poles as the final barrier between Christendom and the invading Turks and the Tsardom of Russia, also called the Tsardom of Muscovy.

扎卡里·戴维斯：梅霍维塔称，如今这些文明的波兰人是阻挡土耳其人和沙皇俄国入侵基督教世界的最后一道屏障。

Michael Tworek: This is part of his mission, Miechowita's, is to say, well, Poland is this bulwark here that is trying to defend not only from the Muslim Turks to the south, southeast, but also from Muscovy, this other schismatic Christian maybe semi-pagan polity that early Modern Europeans are very interested in, both as a potential ally but also as a potential enemy. So knowing exactly where they come from justifies how do you interact with them politically, culturally, religiously? Are they worth interacting with or should we just summarily killed them in warfare? And that's the thing that comes up quite often as well.

麦克-托雷克：这就是梅霍维塔的使命之一。他说道，波兰是这儿的堡垒，不仅保护基督教世界免受穆斯林土耳其人以及南部、东南部国家的侵犯，更保护它免受俄国侵犯。俄国这个东正教国家似乎形成了一种半异教的政体，近代早期欧洲人对它很感兴趣，觉得它既有可能是潜在的盟友，又有可能是潜在的敌人。所以只有知道这些民族国家的起源，你才能确保如何在政治、文化和宗教领域与它们互动。他们值得我们合作吗，还是需要立刻出征，将他们赶尽杀绝？这种情况经常发生。

Zachary Davis: So maybe part of the reason this book was so popular in Western Europe is because Poland became seen as one of the borders of Christendom that was under attack.

扎卡里·戴维斯：这本书之所以在西欧如此受欢迎，部分原因可能是波兰被视为基督教世界被入侵前的屏障之一。

Michael Tworek: I would say very much as this area, this crossroads where this battle is taking place. And part of the problem that Miechowita is trying to address, along with these various patrons who are supporting him in this endeavor, is that for the most part, a lot of Italians just assume Poles were part of Sarmatians or even a worse designation, Scythians.

麦克-托雷克：我得说，波兰这块地方正是战场上狭路相逢之处。梅霍维塔和他的资助人试图改变的是很多意大利人对波兰的刻板印象。多数时候，不少意大利人都觉得波兰人只不过是萨尔马提亚人的一支；更过分的是，有人甚至觉得波兰人是斯基泰人的一支。

Zachary Davis: The Sarmatians were an Iranian confederation from classical antiquity, and would have been considered barbarians. They conquered the closely related Scythians in around 200 BCE. To ancient Greeks and Romans, Scythia was a mysterious place and the root of many evils.

扎卡里·戴维斯：萨尔马提亚是一个古伊朗语系部落，被看作野蛮人部落。公元前200年前后，他们征服了与自己相近的斯基泰人。而在古希腊、古罗马人看来，斯基泰是一片神秘的地方，很多邪恶势力都源自那儿。

Michael Tworek: So trying to push back and say, well, no, we're not Sarmatians, Poles. We're not Scythians. We're actually something different. And this is, I think, the other thing that many scholars miss about Miechowita's text, is that he's not saying that Poles are Sarmatians as later Poles embrace, actually. He's actually saying that Poles are Vandals.

麦克-托雷克：梅霍维塔努力反驳说，我们波兰人不是萨尔马提亚人，也不是斯基泰人，我们其实跟他们完全不同。我觉得这是学者们研究梅霍维塔的这本书时经常忽视的一点，那就是他没有像后世的波兰人那样，接受波兰人是萨尔马提亚人这种说法。相反，他说波兰人是汪达尔人。

Zachary Davis: Vandals were a large Germanic tribe that are thought to have originated in Scandinavia. Some groups of Vandals moved around present-day Europe and North Africa, including invading ancient Roman territories. But Miechowita argued that Poles weren’t descended from nomadic Vandals—they were descended from the Vandals who stayed in place.

扎卡里·戴维斯：汪达尔是一个人口众多的日耳曼部落，被认为起源于斯堪的纳维亚半岛。一些汪达尔人群体在欧洲和北非等地四处迁徙，还曾洗劫了古罗马。不过梅霍维塔认为波兰人不是这些迁徙者的后裔，而是那些留在半岛的汪达尔人的后裔。

Michael Tworek: And that's an important component here of the way early modern Europeans understand these movements of people and who is civilized and who's barbarian, those who settle and farm tend to have that higher level of civilization. And that's what's really important.

麦克-托雷克：有没有迁徙，这一点很重要。近代早期欧洲人在判断文明人和野蛮人的时候很看重这一点。那些定居下来的农耕群体的文明程度往往更高。这点至关重要。

Michael Tworek: So he draws upon the same thing and argues something that is often very much missed. But it's an, actually an extraordinarily bold proposition and one that fails miserably. His contemporaries, they are like you’re wrong. This is not the right approach for dissent. We're actually descended from Sarmatians, but that whole perception of that is really important. And that's why it's so important. Right? It's not just simply the geography. It's not simply just the ethnic origin. It's also. What type of history are you writing? How are you going to shape the history that's written about Poland subsequently?

麦克-托雷克：所以梅霍维塔借鉴了这一点，提出了“波兰人是汪达尔人”这个出乎人意料的观点。这个观点出乎寻常地大胆，但很可惜失败了。同时代的人觉得他做错了，不该用这种方式去反驳那些刻板印象。他们说，我们其实就是萨尔马提亚人的后裔，这种整体印象非常重要。至于为何重要，因为它不仅仅是一个地理概念，也不仅仅关乎民族起源。它还强调了你书写的是哪种历史、你会如何书写波兰的现状和未来？

Why should we care about Poland?

我们为什么要关注波兰？

Zachary Davis: So an audience member listening might say, well, that's kind of interesting, but why should I care about Poland? And I'd love for you to elaborate a little bit more on Poland's role in European self-understanding.

扎卡里·戴维斯：我们节目的听众可能会觉得，这挺有意思的，但我为什么要关注波兰呢？想听您进一步讲讲波兰在整个欧洲中所扮演的角色是什么。

Michael Tworek: When we think of Poland today, and especially in light of recent history, with World War II and obviously the Holocaust. You see a very different Poland that we imagine today and that Poland is very different in the 16th century. It's a major European power. Geographically speaking, it's probably the largest polity, one that stretches from the Baltic Sea to the Black Sea. It's multi-ethnic, becomes multi-religious, Christians, Catholic and Orthodox, and then later, obviously, Protestants. Jews, Muslims. So you have this multi-ethnic, multi-religious polity that is actually able to exert tremendous power and influence throughout Europe.

麦克-托雷克：如今我们一提到波兰，尤其是提到波兰的近代史，首先想到的就是二战和纳粹对波兰人的迫害和屠杀。而在16世纪，人们对波兰的印象与如今截然不同。16世纪波兰可是欧洲大国。从地理上看，它可能是欧洲幅员最辽阔的国家，领土从波罗的海一直延伸到黑海。它还是个多民族国家，后来又成了多宗教的国家，国内盛行的宗教有基督教、天主教、东正教，后来又融入了新教、犹太教和伊斯兰教。这个多民族、多宗教的国家其实可以在整个欧洲发挥巨大的实力和影响力。

Michael Tworek: It also, I think, in the 16th century in particular, where education comes to bear and humanism, this is where this real golden age that's associated with Poland, both today in Poland as well as at the time, you actually end up reading these sources throughout Western Europe in Latin and various other languages. And there is a recognition that this is an important polity that they don't understand, but they know it's gigantic. It's incredibly powerful, but they just don't know what it is.

麦克-托雷克：而且我觉得，特别是在16世纪，教育蓬勃发展，人文主义蔚然成风。无论是现在还是当时，黄金时代的称号和波兰密不可分。整个欧洲到处都是介绍波兰的书籍资料，有拉丁语的，也有其他各种语言的。人们普遍觉得，这个非常重要的国家他们不甚了解，但知道它很庞大。它很强盛，但人们对它缺乏了解。

Zachary Davis: Poland played a large role in education, religion, and politics—including European explorations.

扎卡里·戴维斯：波兰在教育、宗教、政治乃至欧洲地理大发现等方面都举足轻重。

Michael Tworek: You know, when we think of, say, European explorations around the world, we often think England, Spain, Portugal, France. But other Europeans are also thinking about these developments and thinking what is their place in respect to them and wanted these kind of aspects, which I found fascinating about this text, was Miechowita’s connection of what's going on with these European explorations of the Americas, with what Poland's role is, not just in Europe, but also in the world. So he has this a great line where this very much analogous role that, you know, just as the Portuguese king is exploring these new territories and peoples all the way to India, the Polish king is doing the same thing by opening up the eastern frontier and bringing civilization and religion to the east. So that's their ocean of conquest, so to speak. So that's one way of also thinking that, you know, you wouldn't necessarily imagine Poland as having these kind of even imperial aspirations if we think of Poland today, but in the 16th century, it's a whole different place.

麦克-托雷克：要知道，说起欧洲在全球探索新大陆，我们首先会想到英国、西班牙、葡萄牙、法国。但其他欧洲国家也在考虑做这件事，思考自己在地理大发现的热潮中扮演什么角色，渴望自己也能做点什么。《论两个萨尔马提亚》打动我的一点是，梅霍维塔在谈到欧洲发现美洲新大陆时，觉得波兰不仅仅要在欧洲登台露面，还要在世界舞台上登场。他的书差不多起到了这样的作用。当葡萄牙国王手下的航海家们一路航行到印度，探索新大陆和那儿的居民的时候，波兰国王也探索着新世界。他开放了东部边境，将宗教和文明向东边传播。这可以说是波兰征服的海域。也可以这么想，如今我们提到波兰，肯定不会觉得它有这种帝国式的雄心壮志，但在16世纪波兰的地位完全不一样。

Zachary Davis: Scholars from Poland—including Miechowita—studied abroad in the South, and they especially traveled to Italy, to cities like Padua. At the time, Latin was the lingua franca of the educated class. The Treatise on the Two Sarmatias was originally published in Latin but it was quickly translated into Polish, German, Italian, and other languages. It was reprinted into the 17th century and included in compilations on the New World.

扎卡里·戴维斯：包括梅霍维塔在内的波兰学者曾到欧洲南部学习，他们特意去了帕多瓦等意大利城市游历。当时拉丁语是欧洲各国精英阶层的通用语。《论两个萨尔马提亚》最初用拉丁语出版，不过很快就被翻译成波兰语、德语、意大利语等多个语种。17世纪，该书增补了关于新世界的内容，重新印刷出版。

Michael Tworek: One of my own areas of study is that most people don't realize that Padua becomes this major academic center for students from Poland, studying and acquiring tremendous amount of knowledge, connections, membership in the Republic of Letters. Right? So we can also think about it in that way, Poland being part of this major network of learning and scholars.

麦克-托雷克：下面这个就是我的一个研究领域：很多人还没意识到帕多瓦成为了波兰求学者的主要学术中心。他们学习丰富的知识，互通有无，加入到文人共和国中。我们可以这么说，波兰就在这个文人学者的圈子中。

What’s Republic of Letters?

“文人共和国”是什么？

Zachary Davis: Tell us a little bit more about the Republic of Letters. For people who aren't familiar with it. What was this?

扎卡里·戴维斯：跟我们聊聊文人共和国吧，有的听众可能还不是很清楚。它到底是什么呢？

Michael Tworek: So the Republic of Letters—and we often think of it much more in its later iteration, especially in the late 16th, 17th century, up until the Enlightenment, that's often seen this kind of ideal Republic of Letters. But there was earlier versions of it that go back to the 16th century. And even before that, in the 15th century with Petrarch and other Italian humanists developing these networks of exchange letter exchanges. Right? That's a very important component, sharing of works.

麦克-托雷克：文人共和国在后来16、17世纪末一直到启蒙运动的时候，被提到的频率要高得多，也逐渐发展成熟。不过早在16世纪就有了文人共和国的雏形。甚至再往前推，在15世纪的时候，彼得拉克等意大利人文主义者就发明了这种书籍交流圈子。共享知识著作这个环节非常重要。

And then obviously with the printing press being able to share texts quite quickly become essential to that. And developing this commonwealth, as we would say, right, Republic of learning where theoretically, you know, each scholar can equally participate and share. This becomes an incredible way for parts of Europe that you wouldn't necessarily imagine being able to participate. And some scholars have argued that especially the 16th century under Erasmus, that creates a basis for a sense of being European.

麦克-托雷克：随着印刷机的发明，这种分享交流越来越快，越来越便捷，这很重要。于是文人共和国应运而生，每位学者都能平等参与、平等交流。在很多你意想不到的欧洲地区，人们都参与了这个奇妙的文人共和国。一些学者认为它为人们铺垫了一个欧洲共同体的概念，特别是在16世纪伊拉斯谟领导文人共和国的时候。

So we’re talking about that transnational component. And I think that's really where we see that early modern Republic of Letters that becomes influential much more popularly today begins then. And the Erasmus is essential in terms of fostering correspondence, having students come to study with him, having disciples in every corner of the known world is very important.

麦克-托雷克：这是一个跨国知识团体。我觉得这个早期近代文人共和国在后来影响力越来越大、参与人数越来越多，这正是从那个时候开始的。伊拉斯谟功不可没，他组织人们分享交流，邀请学生和他一起学习，可以说是桃李满天下。

Michael Tworek: And what are they saying? They’re exchanging information about texts that they're working on, questions of religion, friendship, recommendation. So it goes all the way from the very academic and intellectual to the very mundane as well.

麦克-托雷克：文人共和国的成员们都聊些什么呢？他们分享自己的著作，彼此交流对宗教、友谊、倡议等问题的看法。上至学术研究，下至日常琐事，他们无所不谈。

Michael Tworek: This text wouldn't have gotten any traction or as much traction without this network. And that's exactly where it actually sparks this incredible discussion where, you know, you're at a time when Europeans love making maps. They are turning to ancient sources to figure out, okay, how do we represent the known world? And all of a sudden someone writes a work that's then printed and then circulated saying the source that you're using this ancient authority, that you're, you highly revere is wrong. That's going to provoke some discussion. And without those kind of basic networks of communication that the Republic of letters fostered, that the printing press enabled, this work wouldn't have attracted the interest of the Holy Roman Emperor. Right? And a whole court of his own humanists. It wouldn’t have attracted interest in Italy and wouldn't be attracted to the Dutch translation later on.

麦克-托雷克：多亏了文人共和国，不然《论两个萨尔马提亚》不会引发这么多关注，甚至根本不会有人关注。也正是在那儿，这本书引发了激烈的讨论。要知道当时欧洲人正热衷于绘制地图，他们参考古代地图来确定自己在当时整个世界占有多少地方。结果突然有人撰写、印刷了一部作品，声称你参考的古代权威的作品，那些你极为敬仰的作品都是错的。这肯定会激起轩然大波。而且若不是文人共和国缔造的遍布欧洲的交流圈子，若没有印刷机，这本书也不会引起神圣罗马帝国皇帝的兴趣，也不会博得他手下一大批人文主义者的关注，更不会引来意大利人和后来的那些荷兰译者的关注。

Michael Tworek: That reminds us that, you know, you can do a tremendous amount without necessarily having a digital component. Right? We do things so quickly now and instantaneously. And you know something having an impact in three-month time is relatively quick in the early modern period instead of three seconds. Right? And I think that's what some of these this text allows us to see, is how, you know, an obscure author in Poland can publish something, perhaps maybe be a little bit provocative, and all of a sudden he attracts all of this interest and attention.

麦克-托雷克：这告诉我们，就算不是数字时代，人们也可以做很多事情，对吧。我们如今可以立即、迅速地处理很多事情。但在近代早期，三个月之内弄出动静已经很快了，不像现在三秒就能搞个热搜。而且透过这本书我们可以看到，一个毫不起眼的波兰作家也可以发表著作，内容或许有些尖锐，但突然之间他引起了所有人的关注和兴趣。

Zachary Davis: One of the strongest negative reactions came from a Swedish humanist named Johannes Magnus.

扎卡里·戴维斯：很多人都猛烈地抨击了这本书，其中一位是瑞典的人文主义者约翰尼斯·马格努斯。

Michael Tworek: He read Miechowita’s work and ended up writing a very angry letter. Almost in a sense, it was almost a trolling letter, which is later reprinted in a subsequent edition right before Miechowita's death along with Miechowita's response. And you could have, like I almost imagined when I was reading it, I was trying to think of contemporary analogies, you could see like the thread. You read the work, then there's the thread response saying you're stupid, you're calling Goths even worse barbarians. I already you have to deal with that enough in the papal, papal court in Rome. Why are you making things worse? You're a dummy. And then having that, very kind of moderate response, which also is very passive aggressive, saying like you're a young acolyte don’t worry. You don't know that much, but I'll forgive you for your lack of, ignorance. You can just imagine this as the early modern Twitter troll exchange, which gets reprinted. So there's that component as well without this network of circulating these texts, letters, this text doesn't have that same kind of traction.

麦克-托雷克：马格努斯读了梅霍维塔的这本书，给他写了封满是怒火的信，从某种程度上说，这几乎是一封挑衅信。梅霍维塔去世前，这本书重新印刷出版，附上了马格努斯的这封信以及梅霍维塔的回信。我读这封信的时候一直在想可以把它看作如今的什么东西。读的时候，估计会觉得像键盘侠发的帖子，信里面一串接着一串地说：你这个蠢货，还说什么哥特人，这不是比野蛮人更糟糕吗？罗马教廷的法院里的一堆事已经够折腾了，你这不是添乱吗？你真是笨到家了。梅霍维塔回了封信，表面上看温和得体，但其实绵里藏针。信里说，您这么年轻，又贵为天主教教廷的助理，我的书就不劳您操心了。您对我的书所知尚浅，不过无知者无畏，我不会计较。你可以把这看作社交网络上骂战的雏形，只不过是印刷版的。所以若不是文人共和国和著作、文字作品的传播圈子，《论两个萨尔马提亚》可不会收到这种回应。

What’s the influences of the book?

这本书带来了什么影响？

Zachary Davis: Is there a way in which this work and perhaps the functioning of the larger Republic of Letters contributed to liberal ideas? How much can we point to, I don't know, a willingness to challenge ancient authorities, a respect for arguments for their own sake, to think about, you know, the beginning of pluralism, tolerance and a lot of enlightenment ideals?

扎卡里·戴维斯：《论两个萨尔马提亚》这本书，还有文人共和国的发展壮大是否有利于自由主义思想的发展呢？在鼓励人们挑战古代权威、尊重个体观点、孕育多元主义思想、鼓励接纳与宽容、孕育启蒙主义思想等方面，它起到了多大作用呢？

Michael Tworek: I would say it's almost two faces in some sense, where on the one hand, there's certainly that component. This particular text I situate within precisely where we associate this kind of call for tolerance and a liberal approach with Erasmus, where his own interactions, he sees this as kind of a very important component of, you know, overcoming these reproaches of barbarism to show how what do we have in common, this common Christian, this common culture of learning. Whereas with Miechowita in this text there is also this kind of other side, which is very, very clear in saying us and them. Right? We’re not those barbarians. Please think of us much more kindly. But then he says the real threat is someone else: Muscovy. They're the ones who are the barbarians. They're the ones who are threatening Europe. We are the ones who are keeping them at bay, as well as the Turks who are also trying to invade and destroy Christendom.

麦克-托雷克：从某种意义上讲，它带来了两方面影响。一方面确实推动了文化圈的交流。我们今天在讲《论两个萨尔马提亚》的时候，刚好可以讲讲伊拉斯谟的影响，讲讲他如何促进了对宽容与自由主义思想的呼吁。他觉得圈子里的交流非常重要，可以让我们不再互相指责对方是野蛮人，而是发现我们的共同之处，我们都是基督教徒，都孜孜不倦地学习。另一方面，梅霍维塔这本书确实在波兰人和野蛮人之间划清了界限。他说，我们不是野蛮人，请在想我们是什么人的时候和善一点。但他又接着说，真正的威胁来自别处，那就是沙皇俄国，那才是野蛮人居住的地方，他们才是真正威胁到欧洲的人。而正是我们波兰人阻挡了这股威胁，同时也阻挡了土耳其人践踏和毁灭基督教世界。

Michael Tworek: So there is that kind of side of conflict, civilizational conflict that is also a part of this. And some sense that along with these calls for toleration and understanding, there's also sometimes calls for there is a different boogeyman that needs to be, needs to be dealt with and sometimes destroyed.

麦克-托雷克：所以说书里展现了冲突的一面，文明之间的冲突也是一部分。从某种意义上说，除了呼吁宽容与理解之外，有时还需要解决另外一个烦人精。

Zachary Davis: So to the west, you have the discovery of the Americas, which casts doubt on ancient authority, and to the east, you have this Polish humanist who's also calling into question the accuracy of these maps and therefore the legitimacy and authority of these ancient sources and western scholars are starting to be in an environment in which, oh, we're going to have to verify all the things that we think we know. And so you could place this text in the larger context of the rise of, I guess of objective knowledge seeking or science.

扎卡里·戴维斯：在西欧，航海家发现了美洲新大陆，这让人们不由地怀疑古代权威；在东欧，波兰人文主义者梅霍维塔也在怀疑古代地图的准确性。这样一来，这些古代地理资料的合理性和权威性自然遭到质疑。西方学者开始养成求实的精神，觉得有必要验证已知的所有事物。所以广而言之，《论两个萨尔马提亚》推动了对客观知识的探索以及科学的发展。

Michael Tworek: Absolutely. I mean, that's one of the threads that goes out throughout this text by Miechowita, constantly questioning as he puts it, the dark shadow of falsehoods that these ancient and contemporary writers that they've put on this region, Sarmatia. Right? On Poland, on the peoples on there. Absolutely. And part of what he says, like I went and visited the site and saw this particular thing. So, direct observation. I know the languages of this region. They don't. Very, kind of pushing back against what people assumed versus what people actually have verified. So I think that's actually extremely helpful way of thinking about this text is a way of being objective or contributing to the objective understanding, objective knowledge.

麦克-托雷克：没错。我觉得这是梅霍维塔贯穿全书的主旨之一。他不断质疑他所说的“那些古代乃至当代作者在萨尔马提亚地区，在波兰和波兰人身上投下的虚假阴影”。确实是这样。他在书里写道，我直接去那里实地调查，看到了这片虚假的阴影。我亲自实地观察了解。我知道这片地区的语言，那些作者却不知道。这样一来就分辨出了哪些内容是作者主观臆断的，哪些是作者验证过的。我觉得这种方法卓有成效地推动了客观知识的发展，推动了人们对客观知识的客观理解。

Zachary Davis: And maybe a little bit more respect for local expertise.

扎卡里·戴维斯：可能还是要多重视地方性的专门知识。

Michael Tworek: For sure. I think for sure. I think that's one of the kind of threads that go throughout this. It doesn't mean that he's unbiased. As you read this text it’s very clear, he has some very —he doesn't hide some of his kind of bias against which, which peoples and places are, are barbarian. But he also brings to bear that he's read, and there's this great line he has. I've read Slavonic sources, something that text where I haven't quite yet pinpointed what exactly he's referring to. Is the Primary Chronicle? Is it some other Slavonic chronicles that he's referring to? But he has these sources which, you know, German humanists, humanists from the Italian peninsula would have not had access to, would not have known the language. So he is saying I have access to another ancient language that you don't have that is giving me information. So that's quite an intervention, so to speak.`

麦克-托雷克：没错的。我认为这是梅霍维塔贯穿全书的一个主旨。不过他也并不是毫无偏见。在书里，他毫不掩饰地表达了自己的偏见，说某些地区某些民族就是野蛮人。不过他也提到他读了一些资料，还说自己读过斯拉夫语的资料，但我不太确定在书里他指的是什么资料，是《古史纪年》，还是别的斯拉夫编年史。不过他参考的这些资料信息，德国和意大利半岛人文主义者都没法获取，因为他们不懂斯拉夫语。所以梅霍维塔说，我可以通过你们不懂的另一门古老语言获取信息，这可以说是一种文化介入。

Michael Tworek: This text, along with other historical, historiographical, ethno-graphical texts about Poland shape, kind of what Poland becomes the rest of Europe into themselves. So they really instead of what he suggests, Poland becoming Vandals, they become Sarmatians, and they embrace this ideology that becomes quite important and quite reflective of what Europeans think of the region, especially if we think about whether this is the beginning of the invention of Eastern Europe. Right? And there is this kind of there are arguments that could be made that a lot of this embrace of this Sarmatism, which this association that Poles and Polish nobles have with this ancient origin story, create the kind of basis for being part of not Western Europe. And they emphasize it so much as well our political system is better than the rest of Europe because it's democratic.

Michael Tworek: We are the bulwark of Christianity against the Ottomans and against Russia. Right? At least a lot of intolerance to initially. It becomes a kind of an opportunity for Catholic and Protestant noblemen in Poland to have a shared bond, but later on becomes a much more Catholic and much more prejudice. It also leads to the development of different fashion sense. Right? Which also can contribute to kind of economics and was an orientalism of these people were they embrace very much what we would call Eastern fashions, Turkic fashion, fur coats, sashes around your waist. Awesome shaved heads of a little like tough of hair, which I often want. I don't have enough hair for that anymore, but I'd love to. In my earlier days, I wish I could have tried that. And obviously a certain style of more martial skill and valor that they see as something making them separate from the rest of Europeans. So that's something where this text I think contributes indirectly and not in the way that I think many scholars realize. Scholars, even modern historians of, say, early modern Poland and Europe would say that this reemphasizes the sense of belonging, this the sense of Poles are Sarmatians.

麦克-托雷克：《论两个萨尔马提亚》这本书，以及其他有关波兰的史学史书、编撰史书、民族志书籍都探讨了波兰是如何从欧洲的边陲之地发展起来的。其他有关波兰的书认为波兰人不是像梅霍维塔所说的那样起源于汪达尔人，反而认为波兰人是萨尔马提亚人的后代。他们采纳的这个观点越来越重要，也反映着欧洲人对波兰的看法，特别是，我们会思考是不是从这里开创了东欧这个概念。还有人提出，他们热情接纳萨尔马提亚主义，认为波兰人和波兰贵族都是萨尔马提亚人的子孙，这就从根本上否认了他们是西欧的一部分。而且波兰人反复强调这一点，还强调波兰的政治体制优于欧洲别的国家，因为实施的是民主制。

麦克-托雷克：他们说，我们是守卫基督教世界的堡垒，抵御着奥斯曼土耳其和俄国的入侵。这其实是对民族起源的不包容。它看似揭示了波兰的天主教和新教贵族之间共同的血缘纽带，但后来天主教占据了上风，更多偏见也随之而来。它还推动了不同时尚观念的发展，某种程度上也推动了经济的发展。这些人热情拥抱东方民族风俗，拥抱所谓的东方时尚或土耳其时尚，比如说皮大衣、外套外面的腰带等等。还有那种硬硬的、剃得很漂亮的发型，我一直挺想弄一个类似的，不过好像现在发量不太够了，后悔早几年的时候没尝试一下。当然还有特定的作战技巧和英勇无畏的精神，他们觉得这点波兰人和其他欧洲人完全不同。我觉得这些都是《论两个萨尔马提亚》带来的间接影响，也是很多学者尚未意识到的。学者乃至近代历史学家都说，近代早期波兰人和其他欧洲人都觉得这种观点重申了波兰人的归属感，即波兰人就是萨尔马提亚人。

Zachary Davis: So it had the exact opposite consequences that he intended.

扎卡里·戴维斯：所以，这本书产生的影响其实和梅霍维塔想要达到的目标恰恰相反。

Michael Tworek: Absolutely. And that's one thing I've always been you know, when students ask, you know, how do I situate my work in a larger scholarly debate? This is how I situate this particular work. This particular book texts in my own research is a gap. I would say the other aspect, which is part of the book that I'm writing now in terms of looking at early modern globalization from the point of view of polities that don't have overseas empires. Is that it shows us a really interesting way of how a person doesn't necessarily need to travel to different parts of the world that can imagine and put together the developments that are going on in this time, explorations going on to the Americas, into Asia, understanding how not only Poland fits within Europe, how other nations belong, but also chronologically where chronology almost collapses, like you have to think not only up to your own day and across the world vertically, but also chronologically going back all the way to the beginning of you know, to Adam and Eve for that. Right?

Michael Tworek: This is something that I think makes this texts. And that's one of reasons why begin the book with this particular text as a springboard to think about how are Europeans not from overseas empires, thinking about rising connections and disconnections around the world. It makes it really, really clear that it's not just Western Europeans who are thinking about these issues. It's a far greater spread than we actually thought that you could be a little obscure bookworm in Krakow and still think globally and locally at the same time.

麦克-托雷克：没错。这也是我一直在思考的。当学生问我，您如何从更宏观的学术讨论角度看待自己的研究。我是这么看的：《论两个萨尔马提亚》弥合了我研究中的断层。当然还有别的作用，就是目前它是我正在写的那本书的一部分，我这本书想从那些没有海外殖民地的国家的角度，去研究近代早期的全球化进程。这本书向人们展示了很有意思的一点，那就是人们没必要去往世界各地，而是通过当时总体的发展情况，以及对美洲、对亚洲的航海探索，明白要如何让波兰融入欧洲，以及其他国家是什么样子。而且在年代研究方面，年代顺序有时候也会错乱，所以你不光要从你所生活的时间开始，纵向梳理从古至今的整个世界史，还要一路追溯到人类的诞生，追溯到亚当与夏娃的年代。

麦克-托雷克：这就是我写这本书时所想的。部分是出于这个原因，我在书里以《论两个萨尔马提亚》为起点，来思考为什么不是别的海外帝国发现欧洲大陆，思考整个世界是如何越来越密不可分，却又同时走向分离。显然不光西欧在思考这一问题，很多国家与地区的人都在思考（，范围比我们想象得广得多）。你可以一头钻在有关克拉科夫这座城市的书海里，着眼当地，同时放眼全球。

Zachary Davis: Let’s return now to one of the primary reasons that Miechowita wrote this text: to argue that the Riphean and Hyperborean mountains didn’t exist. 500 years later, the existence of these mountains is still up for debate.

扎卡里·戴维斯：让我们回顾一下梅霍维塔写这本书的最初原因：他是想证明里菲山和许珀耳玻瑞亚山并不存在。500年过去了，这些山脉是否存在依然没有确切的答案。

Michael Tworek: I actually disagree with Miechowita. He's absolutely, totally wrong that these mountains don't exist. I mean, from what I gather and read, I mean, they're very clearly the Ural Mountains.

麦克-托雷克：我其实不同意梅霍维塔的观点。他肯定错了，这些山不可能不存在。从我收集和阅读的资料来看，显然它们是乌拉尔山脉。

Michael Tworek: So there are some things to quibble with which is great. You can read even as a modern reader today, and that's one of the great things say. Were you thinking and saying these mountains don't exist? That makes no sense.

麦克-托雷克：我们能挑挑这种小毛病，这点还挺好的。如今的人们仍然可以作为一个近现代读者来阅读这本书，这真的太好了。你会质疑作者：你是说这些山脉不存在吗？我觉得没道理。

Zachary Davis: Writ Large is a production of Ximalaya. Writ Large is produced by Galen Beebe and me, Zachary Davis, with help from Feiran Du, Ariel Liu, Wendy Wu, and Monica Zhang. It was mixed and mastered by Kevin Seaman. Our intern is Neil Luczai. Music is by Blue Dot Sessions. Don’t miss an episode. Subscribe today in the Ximalaya app. Thanks for listening.

扎卡里·戴维斯：本节目由喜马拉雅独家制作播出。感谢您的收听，我们下期再见！