【英文翻译版99】蒂莫西·汉普顿：《堂·吉诃德》

英文文稿+中文翻译

Zachary Davis: Don Quixote is a hilarious book. As I was reading it, I couldn’t believe something 400 years old could make me laugh so much. But despite being so funny, it’s also an incredibly brilliant examination of the nature of literature. 

扎卡里·戴维斯：《堂·吉诃（hē）德》是一部诙谐有趣的书。我在阅读它的时候，我无法相信这样一部有400年历史的书籍能让我如此开怀大笑。但在诙谐有趣之余，它也是一次杰出的对文学本质的考察，令人难以置信。

Timothy Hampton: It's a book about books. It's a book about what it is to be obsessed with books and to be transformed by your relationship to fiction. 

蒂莫西·汉普顿：这是一部关于书籍的书。这部书讲述了醉心于书籍的状态究竟是怎样的，也讲述了你与小说之间的联系将如何改变你。

Timothy Hampton: My name is Timothy Hampton. I'm a professor of comparative literature and French at the University of California at Berkeley. 

蒂莫西·汉普顿：我的名字叫蒂莫西·汉普顿，是加州大学伯克利分校比较文学和法语系的一名教授。

Zachary Davis: Don Quixote was written by Spanish author Miguel de Cervantes. He wrote it in two parts. Part one was published in 1605, and part two ten years later, in 1615. The story is centered around a middle aged guy named Alonso Quijano who is obsessed with stories of brave medieval knights. 

扎卡里·戴维斯：《堂吉诃德》由西班牙作家米格尔·德·塞万提斯所作。整部作品分为两部分。第一部分出版于1605年，第二部分在十年后的1615年面世。故事的中心人物是一位名叫阿隆索·吉哈诺的中年男子，他痴迷于勇敢的中世纪骑士故事。

Timothy Hampton: You know, it's the story of a guy who was a sort of impoverished aristocrat in 17th century Spain who doesn't have to work for a living, and spends his days locked in his library reading what at the time were called romances of chivalry, which are a kind of almost comic book-like genre of literature that proliferated in the 16th century. 

蒂莫西·汉普顿：这个故事的主角是一名17世纪西班牙穷困的贵族，他不必为生计而奔波，整天将自己锁在书房里阅读当时所谓的骑士传奇。那是一种像漫画书一样的文学体裁，在16世纪大量涌现。

Zachary Davis: These types of stories were always popular, but they gained new traction with the invention of the Gutenberg Printing Press in the 15th century. 

扎卡里·戴维斯：这些类型的故事一直很受欢迎，但15世纪古腾堡印刷术的发明，为它们的传播注入了新的动力。

Timothy Hampton: We often think of the invention of movable type as being a great thing for, you know, the classics and these kinds of things. But there was also a massive proliferation of what we would today call popular literature and one of the most popular forms, were these romances of chivalry, which were stories about knights traveling around the world on winged horses, fighting against dragons and giants and so on and so forth.

蒂莫西·汉普顿：我们常常认为活字印刷术的发明对经典文献的传播大有益处。但其实它也推动了大量通俗文学作品的发展，其中最受欢迎的体裁之一便是这些骑士传奇。在这些故事里，骑士们骑着带翅膀的马环游世界，与龙和巨人战斗等等。

Timothy Hampton: Don Quixote spends his days absorbed in reading these kinds of stories, and at a certain point, he decides that he too must act. And so it raises the very big ethical question of, you know, what does it mean to act in the world, and on what basis do you begin to act, right? And so he suddenly says, “I am Don Quixote. I will become Don Quixote.” And he turns himself then into a knight errant.

蒂莫西·汉普顿：堂吉诃德没日没夜地沉浸在这类故事中，某一刻他下定决心自己必须采取行动。这也就引出了一个宏大的伦理问题，在这个世界上采取行动意味着什么？你在什么基础上采取行动？他突然说道：“我是堂吉诃德，我会成为堂吉诃德。”于是他化身为一名骑士。

Zachary Davis: Don Quixote goes on all sorts of misguided adventures; fighting a windmill, jousting with a flock of sheep, and usually losing these battles in humiliating fashion. 

扎卡里·戴维斯：堂吉诃德误入了各式各样的冒险；与风车搏斗，与羊群比武，而且通常以极其羞辱的方式败下阵来。

Timothy Hampton: But those are only the opening episodes because as the novel unfolds, it becomes extraordinarily profound in its meditation on what it means to read, what it means to embrace a fiction, what kinds of codes we use to determine our lives. 

蒂莫西·汉普顿：但以上这些仅仅是小说开篇的章节。随着小说的展开，小说变得极其深刻，深思并探讨阅读的意义，阅读小说的意义，以及我们的生活由哪些准则决定。

Zachary Davis: In Don Quixote, Cervantes created a protagonist who was out of step with his own time.  

扎卡里·戴维斯：塞万提斯在《堂吉诃德》中塑造的主人公，与他自己的时代格格不入。

Timothy Hampton: Don Quixote's idea is that the code of chivalry, of medieval chivalry as he understood it, is the only thing that can save the world. And he needs to embrace that code as a way of going out and as he calls it, rescuing widows, and helping orphans, and killing bad guys, and helping good guys. And so we have this interesting instance of a literary character who is out of touch with his times, but as the novel unfolds, it becomes clear, is really the only force for good in the world. Everyone around him is corrupt, violent, venal, deceitful, and he is the beacon of goodness. 

蒂莫西·汉普顿：堂吉诃德认为，他所理解的中世纪骑士精神，是唯一可以拯救世界的事物。他接受这一准则，视其为外出闯荡的依据，用他自己的话说，就是去拯救寡妇，帮助孤儿，惩恶扬善。我们因此看到一个与时代脱节的文学人物，这很有意思。但随着小说的展开，我们逐渐看清他确实是世界上唯一善的力量。他周围的人都是腐败的、暴力的、卑鄙的、虚伪的，而他是善良的灯塔。

Timothy Hampton: So we have this kind of problem of, I mean it's an existential problem, which is what do you do when you're out of touch with your times, but you're the only good guy around? And that's one of the things that Cervantes invented. And I think that's extraordinary. And as I say, it comes out of too much reading.

蒂莫西·汉普顿：我们面临这样一个生存问题，当你与你的时代脱节，但你是周围环境中唯一的好人，你应该做些什么呢？这是塞万提斯给我们的启示之一，我认为这很特别。正如我所说的，它源自于大量的阅读。

Zachary Davis: Welcome to Writ Large, a podcast about how books change the world. I’m Zachary Davis. For this episode, I sat down with professor Timothy Hampton to discuss Miguel de Cervantes’s Don Quixote.

扎卡里·戴维斯：欢迎收听：改变你和世界的100书，在这里我们为大家讲述改变世界的书籍。我是扎卡里·戴维斯。每一集，我都会和一位世界顶尖学者讨论一本影响历史进程的书。在本集，我将和蒂莫西·汉普顿教授一起讨论米格尔·德·塞万提斯的《堂吉诃德》。

Zachary Davis: What can you say about Cervantes's life arc and kind of what's going on in Spain at this time?

扎卡里·戴维斯：您能介绍一下塞万提斯的生平吗？当时西班牙又正在发生些什么？

Timothy Hampton: So he was born in 1547, which is right in the center of the 16th century. And of course, the 16th century is the century that gives us really the foundations of the modern world, right? It's the first century of printing, it's the century of the rise of colonialism, it's the century of the beginnings of the nation state and so on and so forth. So he's born right in the middle of the 16th century. His father was a surgeon who was also a barber, they were the same thing because they used razors to cut you open. There's some evidence that he might have been from a, what the Spanish called “converso family'', which is to say, a Jewish family that had converted to Christianity, though nobody knows for sure whether that's true. He was educated in a Jesuit school, went to Madrid, and in 1569 he seems to have wounded someone in a duel after which he left Madrid and found his way to Italy. 

蒂莫西·汉普顿：塞万提斯出生于1547年，正值16世纪中叶。16世纪是现代世界的基石，这是印刷术出现的第一个世纪，也是殖民主义兴起、国家诞生的世纪。塞万提斯是在16世纪的正中间出生的。他的父亲是一位外科医生也是一名理发师，这两者在当时是同一种职业，因为当时他们用剃刀为人开刀。也有证据表明塞万提斯可能来自一个皈依了基督教的犹太家庭，西班牙人会称之为“转变家庭”，但没人能确定这是不是真的。塞万提斯在耶稣教会学校接受教育，后来去了马德里。1569年，他似乎在一场打斗中打伤了人，随后他离开了马德里并前往意大利。

Zachary Davis: Cervantes settled in Rome and got a job working for an aristocratic Italian bishop.  

扎卡里·戴维斯：塞万提斯在罗马定居了下来，为一位贵族阶级的意大利主教工作。

Timothy Hampton: So he saw the last gasp of what we would call the Italian renaissance, or the beginnings of the, kind of, baroque period in Rome, and eventually found himself signing up to be an officer in the Spanish Navy. And this was at the moment of the great battle in 1571, of LePanto, in which he was wounded and lost the use of one of his hands. And so he makes a big deal of this throughout his later life that he was basically a one handed guy and was only able to to write and was not able to do anything else. 

蒂莫西·汉普顿：所以塞万提斯经历了我们所说的意大利文艺复兴的最后阶段，或者说罗马巴洛克时期的初期阶段。他后来成为了西班牙海军的一名军官。在1571年的勒班托海战中，塞万提斯受了伤，他的一只手丧失了功能。他在此后的人生中大肆宣扬他只有一只手，除了写作之外，干不了其他事情。

Zachary Davis: Presumably his left hand?

扎卡里·戴维斯：想必是他的左手丧失了功能？

Timothy Hampton: Left hand, yes. And so after this, he goes back to Rome, and a bit later, he's on his way back to Spain, and his ship is captured by Ottoman pirates, and he's sold into slavery, or sent into slavery, in Algiers and held for ransom, which is basically, you know, a kind of cottage industry in the 16th century. And he was there for five years before he was ransomed by a charitable Christian organization, brought back to Spain.

蒂莫西·汉普顿：是的，是左手。在此之后，他回到罗马。再之后，他在回西班牙的途中，船只被奥斯曼帝国的海盗掳去，他也被送到阿尔及尔，沦为奴隶，他被扣押并被勒索赎金。他当奴隶的地方是16世纪常见的家庭式作坊。他在那里呆了五年，之后被基督教慈善组织赎回并带回西班牙。

Timothy Hampton: And he lives out his life trying to do a number of things. He works as a tax collector for a while. He has a lot of health problems. He's thrown into debtor's prison, and he writes various things. He writes a pastoral novel, a novel about shepherds. He tries to write a lot of plays, he wrote about 20 plays. None of them made them any money. I mean, you couldn't really make money on the theater in the 16th and 17th century, but he wrote a number of plays. And in 1605, he publishes this strange thing called Don Quixote, which is the first part of the novel that we have today, which immediately makes him famous. Shortly after that, he published a collection of tales, what are called the Exemplary Novels which are sort of novellas, some of which are very beautiful. And then in 1615, he published the second part of Don Quixote. So there are 10 years between the first half of the novel and the second half. And he dies in 1616. 

蒂莫西·汉普顿：塞万提斯一生都在试图各种各样的事情。他做了一段时间的收税员。他有很多健康问题。他被扔进了债务人的监狱，他写了各种东西。他写了一部田园小说，一部关于牧羊人的小说。他也尝试撰写了很多戏剧作品，大约写了20部作品。但没有一部剧本挣到钱。在16、17世纪，真的在剧院里赚钱是不太可能的。1605年，塞万提斯发表了这部奇怪的作品，书名是《堂吉诃德》，这就是我们今天所看到的《堂吉诃德》的第一部分，他立刻声名大噪。打铁趁热，他随即又发表了一本故事集，取名为《训诫小说集》，都是短篇小说，其中一些篇章非常优美。1615年，他发表了《堂吉诃德》的第二部分。因此，小说的前半部分和后半部分间隔了10年。塞万提斯在1616年过世。

Zachary Davis: For a while, it was believed that Cervantes died on the exact same day as William Shakespeare. But because the Spanish calendar and English calendar were slightly misaligned, that’s actually not true. 

扎卡里·戴维斯：很长一段时间里，大家都相信塞万提斯和威廉·莎士比亚恰好于同一天逝世。但事实并非如此，因为西班牙日历和英国日历并不一致。

Timothy Hampton: But it's a great idea. And it should be true, given the extraordinary similarities between those two authors; they're both reflecting on a changing world, they both seem to have a value system that really privileges old ideas of kingship and virtue that seem to be disappearing under the pressures of modernity. So Shakespeare and Cervantes, you know, are kind of natural pairs, a natural pairing, along with the French philosopher Montaigne, who's also pretty much their contemporary, a little bit older. But those three authors always seem to me, at least, to be speaking to each other even though they never met.

蒂莫西·汉普顿：这是一个很不错的想法。这两位作家身上有非常多共通点。他们都在反思一个不断变化的世界，都有自己的价值体系，赋予古老的王权和美德以特权，这些古老的观念似乎在现代性的压力下逐渐消失了。所以，将莎士比亚和塞万提斯组合在一起是很自然的一件事，还有法国哲学家蒙田。蒙田跟他们是差不多同时代的人，略微年长一些。但在我看来，这三位作家总是在对话，尽管他们从未见过面。

Zachary Davis: Cervantes entered the Spanish literary scene at an exciting time. 

扎卡里·戴维斯：塞万提斯在激动人心的时刻加入了西班牙文坛。

Timothy Hampton: So in Spain, there are a couple of things that are worth thinking about. There's a heavily centralized court society, so there are a lot of courtly writers who write for the king, about the king, but you also have a very lively public theatrical scene. So there's not only Calderón de la Barca, there's another writer named Lope de Vega, they called him the monster because he wrote so many plays, he was so successful. And his plays are still performed all the time today in the Spanish speaking world, a number of other playwrights and a very lively scene of, lots of lyric poetry, celebration of poetry. 

蒂莫西·汉普顿：在西班牙，有几件事情值得思考。西班牙是一个高度中央集权的宫廷社会，所以有很多宫廷作家为国王创作，写一些关于国王的作品。但也有非常活跃的公众剧场。因此西班牙不仅有卡尔德隆·德·拉·巴尔卡，也有洛卜·德·维加，他被称为怪物，因为他写了非常多的戏剧，大获成功。他的戏剧仍然活跃在今天西班牙语世界的舞台上。当时还有许多其他剧作家；抒情诗也是一个非常活跃的领域，很多人都在传颂当时的诗歌。

Timothy Hampton: I mean, it really is a kind of mirror image of the scene that we think of at the end of the 16th, the beginning of the 17th century in England, where you have a public theater with Ben Jonson, Christopher Marlowe, Shakespeare, you have poets like Philip Sidney circulating their poetry, you have the beginnings of prose fiction, all of those things are happening also in Spain in a different cultural context, of course, and in a different religious context, obviously. So there is a very lively literary world and there's a very lively, of course, world of the visual arts. Velasquez is painting at this time, El Greco is painting at this time, and we get the construction in the late 16th century of the Escorial, the palace of the king outside of Madrid. So there is an immense amount of intellectual ferment and artistic production that's going on at this time.

蒂莫西·汉普顿：这真的和16世纪末、17世纪初英国的场景一模一样。在英国，公众剧场里上演着本·琼森、克里斯托弗·马洛、莎士比亚的剧目，我们看到以菲利普·西德尼为代表的诗人，他们的诗歌作品广泛流传，散文小说也在那时候萌芽。以上所有事件也同时在西班牙发生。当时的文学界非常活跃，视觉艺术的世界也同样有活力。委拉斯开兹和埃尔·格列柯都是当时活跃的画家，埃斯科里亚尔修道院在16世纪末建成，是当时西班牙国王在马德里外的行宫。当时有大量知识在发酵，也有很多艺术在涌现。

Zachary Davis: Spain was also thriving politically.

扎卡里·戴维斯：当时的西班牙在政治界也非常活跃。

Timothy Hampton: Spain had ruled the world. In the mid-16th century there was the Treaty of Tordesillas between Spain and Portugal, which divided up the world. And there was the great Columbian expedition, there was Cortez in Mexico, there were these massive colonialist enterprises in the new world and all of this silver coming into Spain, from South America principally, that made Spain incredibly rich and a big player in European politics.

蒂莫西·汉普顿：西班牙曾统治过世界。16世纪中期，西班牙和葡萄牙签订了《托尔德西里亚斯条约》，二分天下。随着哥伦布远征，科尔特斯征服墨西哥，在新世界大规模殖民的事业纷纷涌现，来自南美的白银都涌入了西班牙，这都使得西班牙变得非常富有，并在欧洲政治中扮演重要角色。

Timothy Hampton: And so everything was great. And of course, the Holy Roman emperor in the early part of the 16th century, Charles V, the Hapsburg emperor, was also Charles I of Spain. So, Spain was riding high. And by the end of the 16th century, everything had turned bad.

蒂莫西·汉普顿：一切都向着好的方向发展。16世纪初，西班牙国王查理一世是神圣罗马帝国皇帝查理五世、哈布斯堡皇帝。因此，西班牙的发展势头很猛。而到了16世纪末，一切都转差了。

Timothy Hampton: There was the unfortunate military expedition against England, the famous Armada in 1588, which ended disastrously. There had been bad harvests, the influx of silver from the new world ruined the Spanish economy, basically, and caused massive inflation. They had also expelled the Jews and the Arabs earlier in the century, which meant that the merchant class was gone from Spanish society. So you had this very strange, stratified society of peasants who were dirt poor on the one hand and on the other hand, a kind of idle aristocracy on the other, without the kind of mercantile energy that you find, for example, in England, right? That's the kind of counterweight to Spain. 

蒂莫西·汉普顿：1588年，著名的西班牙舰队对英国进行了军事远征，但结局是灾难性的。糟糕的收成，加上白银从新世界涌入，基本上摧毁了西班牙的经济，并造成了大规模的通货膨胀。西班牙还在16世纪初驱逐了犹太人和阿拉伯人，这意味着商人阶层已经从西班牙社会消失。因此，当时的西班牙是一个非常奇怪的、分化的社会，一边是穷得叮当响的农民，另一边是一种无所事事的贵族。他们没有英国所具备的商业能量。这对西班牙是一种制约。

Timothy Hampton: So Spain was in a period of real decadence, it's what in Spanish literature they call desengaño, which means disenchantment. And there's really a sense that they had been living a kind of dream of world glory, and now they had woken up from the dream and they didn't like what they saw. So you could see why Cervantes, at this point, would give us a novelistic hero who really sees the world as out of joint, as Hamlet would say, and who wants to return to an earlier ethical code when men were brave and women were beautiful and dragons were evil and you know, there was work to be done. And that nostalgic vision, which is one of the things that Cervantes bequeathed really to world literature and to Western culture, was very much of the moment at one level.

蒂莫西·汉普顿：西班牙正处于一个真正的颓废时期，在西班牙文学中，他们称之为幻灭（desengaño）。确实如此，西班牙人一直生活在一场繁荣的梦中，而现在他们从梦中醒来，不喜欢眼前的真实情况。所以你可以理解为什么塞万提斯当时会在小说里塑造一个英雄形象，真心认为这个世界是不正常的，就像哈姆雷特说的那样，他想找回早前的道德准则，那时男人是勇敢的，女人是美丽的，龙是邪恶的，工作是要完成的。这种怀旧的愿景，是塞万提斯留给世界文学和西方文化的遗产之一，在某种程度上非常能说明当时的情绪。

Zachary Davis: Meanwhile, warfare in Europe was undergoing a radical change. 

扎卡里·戴维斯：与此同时，欧洲的战争也在经历一场彻底的变革。

Timothy Hampton: Suddenly we have wars that in the old days had been fought with swords and lances and maces, where an aristocrat could ride his horse into battle and conk the peasants on the head. We now have warfare based on gunpowder. We have guns, we have muskets, we have cannons, and that's heavily democratizing because it means that the lowliest peasant can kill the biggest, the most powerful king with just one shot. For the aristocracy that's, you know, the beginning of the end at that point.

蒂莫西·汉普顿：过去，我们用长剑、长矛和马刀进行战争，贵族骑着马上战场，击打农民的头。突然间，我们开始在战争中使用火药。战场上出现了步枪、火绳枪和大炮。这是高度民主化的体现，因为它意味着地位最低的农民只要一枪，就可以杀死地位最高的、最有权势的国王。对于贵族来说，这就是他们陨落的序幕。

Zachary Davis: Where is the heroism in gunpowder?

扎卡里·戴维斯：火药的英雄主义体现在什么地方？

Timothy Hampton: Exactly. I've wondered that many times.

蒂莫西·汉普顿：是的，我也多次思考过这个问题。

Zachary Davis: All these changes in warfare, culture, and politics impacted the literature of the day. For around 500 years, chivalric epics and romances dominated the literary market. Instead of Batman and James Bond, you had King Arthur, Charlemagne, and Orlando.

扎卡里·戴维斯：战争、文化和政治上的变化都影响了当时的文学。在长达500年的时间里，文学市场一直由骑士史诗和传奇所主导。流行的是亚瑟王、查理曼和奥兰多。

Zachary Davis: Could you sketch a typical romance story featuring one of these brave knights? 

扎卡里·戴维斯：能否请您简单叙述一个典型的以英勇骑士为主角的浪漫故事？

Timothy Hampton: So you have a hero who is possibly riding through the woods one day and he meets a knight in black armor and the knight challenges him. And then something comes along to interrupt the duel, and one of them is called away, maybe to rescue a damsel, and they meet again 250 pages later, and they have to pick up their duel. In the meantime, maybe one of them gets on a boat. And of course, whenever you get on a boat in literature, there's going to be a storm. So he gets on a boat and he's blown off course. And the next thing you know, he finds himself in China or Africa, where he has to defeat a number of evil guys. And he picks up his sword, this is the kind of cliché that we think of also if we read classical epic poetry, of the knight who can pick up his sword and hit somebody on the head and split him down the middle. Everybody's usually riding an enchanted horse of some kind and they're completely, of course, immortal and completely untouchable. 

蒂莫西·汉普顿：比如说某一天，一位英雄可能正在森林里骑马，他遇到了一位身着黑色盔甲的骑士，这个骑士向他发起挑战。随后发生了一些事情打断了两人的决斗，其中一个人被叫走了，可能是去救一位少女。250页之后，两人重新开始决斗。在这期间，也许他们中的一个人上了一艘船。文学作品中上船的情节，通常意味着会有风暴出现。所以他上了船，却被吹离航线。之后他发现自己到了非洲，在那里他必须打败一些邪恶的家伙。他拿起他的剑。这是颇为常见的情节，如果我们阅读古典史诗，我们也会想到，骑士拿起他的剑，击打别人的头，把他从中间劈开。每个人通常都骑着一匹被施了魔法的马，当然，他们是完全不朽且不可触摸的。

Zachary Davis: By the early 1600s, these stories had gone out of style for everyone, except the hero of today’s text, Alonso Quijano. He devours these chivalric stories and then he decides he’s going to go out and live it, as Don Quixote.

扎卡里·戴维斯：到了17世纪初，这些故事对所有人而言都过时了，而今天讨论的小说主角阿隆索·吉哈诺是一个例外。他被这些骑士故事吸收，然后他决定以堂吉诃德的身份生活下去。

Zachary Davis: Let's now move to the story itself. How does it begin?

扎卡里·戴维斯：我们来看看这个故事本身吧。它是怎么开始的？

Timothy Hampton: So Don Quixote goes crazy. He takes his horse, whom he calls Rocinante, and he finds an old shield and he puts together a helmet for himself, made out of cardboard. And he enlists his neighbor, a farmer named Sancho Panza, to be his squire. And they go out. In the early episodes, it's very slapsticky. And about, I don't know, 10 chapters into the novel, Don Quixote is entering into a battle with a Basque. And Don Quixote has his sword and the Basque has his sword, and suddenly the narrative stops. 

蒂莫西·汉普顿：堂吉诃德疯了。他骑着自己的马，他为自己的马取名罗西南多。他找到一面旧盾牌，用纸板为自己做了一个头盔。他还招募了邻居，一位名叫桑丘·潘沙的农民，让他做自己的侍从。然后他们就出发了。前几章的故事搞笑滑稽，但大概在第10章中，堂吉诃德开始了与一个巴斯克人的打斗。堂吉诃德拿着他的剑，巴斯克人也拿着自己的剑，故事在这里戛然而止。

Timothy Hampton: They're both about to conk each other with their swords, and suddenly the narrator of the novel intervenes and he says, “Sorry. We have to stop here. I don't know what's going to happen. Is Don Quixote going to hit the Basque or the Basque to hit Don Quixote? But we have to stop here because I can tell you that this novel you've been reading or this story you've been reading was a manuscript, and that's all I have of the manuscript. It stopped right there.” So this is one of these great sort of post-modern moments where it becomes a novel about making novels. And so he says, “Let me tell you the story. One day I was in the marketplace in Toledo, and I saw a pile of papers in Arabic and somebody was reading them and laughing. And I said, ‘What are you laughing about?’ And he said, ‘Well, I'm reading the story of Don Quixote and Sancho Panza.’ And I said, ‘What?’ And so I got this guy to translate this manuscript. Right.” And so now he says, “I've got the rest of it and we're going to continue with the story.” 

蒂莫西·汉普顿：他们两个都差一点要用剑击打到对方，突然之间，故事的叙述人打断了他们的决斗说道：“我们必须要在这里停一停。我不知道接下来会发生什么。是堂吉诃德要打到巴斯克人？还是巴斯克人要打到堂吉诃德？但我们必须要停一停，因为你们现在所阅读的这部小说还只是一份手稿，这份手稿就这么长，在这里结束。”这是凸显后现代主义的时刻，它变成了一部关于创作小说的小说。叙述人接着说道：“让我给你说一个故事。有一天，我在托莱多的市场里，有人在阅读一堆阿拉伯文的报纸，开怀大笑。我问他‘你在笑什么？’他回答道，‘我在阅读堂吉诃德和桑丘·潘沙的故事。’‘什么？’我接着说道。于是我让这位男士替我翻译了这片手稿。”之后，叙述人接着说道，“我现在有手稿的余下部分了，我们接着讲这个故事。”

Timothy Hampton: So we get this kind of self-conscious intervention into the novel, where the narrator now becomes a kind of character and he tells us how he found the rest of the novel, got it translated, he says, “I got it translated from Arabic into Spanish.” There's a great detail because he has his negotiation with the guy who's going to do the translation, who's a Moore in the cathedral in Toledo. And he says, “And of course, you know, he translated it into Spanish, but as we know, all Moors are liars, so we can't believe anything that they say and we can't believe that the story is true. But here's the story.” So then he goes on with the story. And so what this does is it introduces the problem of making stories into the novel. 

蒂莫西·汉普顿：因此，我们看到了小说中自觉的干预，叙述者成为了小说的一个角色，他告诉我们他如何找到小说的其余部分，并将它翻译出来，他说道，“我把它从阿拉伯语翻译成西班牙语。”有一个值得品味的细节，他与那个要做翻译的人进行谈判，那个人是托莱多大教堂里的一个摩尔。他说：“当然是这位摩尔把手稿翻译成了西班牙语，但正如我们所知，所有的摩尔都是骗子，所以我们不能相信他们说的任何东西，我们不能相信这个故事是真的。但这就是这个故事。”于是，他继续讲故事。因此，这里呈现的就是把编故事的问题引入到小说中。

Zachary Davis: Don Quixote and Sancho continue on with their adventures, doing right in the world as they see fit. They free slaves, help lost lovers, and manage to draw a lot of attention along the way.

扎卡里·戴维斯：堂吉诃德和桑丘继续着在全世界的冒险，做他们认为正确的事情。他们解放奴隶，帮助失散的恋人，一路上获得了很多关注。

Timothy Hampton: As the novel unfolds, everybody around Don Quixote, including a priest and a barber from his home village who show up on the scene, everybody says, “You know, this guy's crazy. We've got to cure him, we've got to get him out of the mountains and back to his home village.” So how are they going to do that? You can't go to him and say, Don Quixote, you're crazy, because of course, he refuses to believe that. So the only way they can do this is by pretending to enter into the chivalric world that Don Quixote inhabits. So they cook up a scheme where one of the young people that they've met is going to pretend to be a princess in distress, and she needs to be freed from a giant. And so they're going to lure Don Quixote out of the mountains, and they're going to capture him and throw him in a cage and take them back to his village. So you can see that as the story unfolds, everybody around Don Quixote starts to enter into the world of the fiction and become little Don Quixotes, each in his own right, and they find that this is great fun.

蒂莫西·汉普顿：随着小说的展开，堂吉诃德身边的每个人，包括一位牧师和一位出现在情节中的老乡理发师，每个人都在说：“你知道，这家伙疯了。我们必须治好他，我们必须带他离开山野回到家乡。”那么他们要怎么做呢？不可能直接去和堂吉诃德说你疯了，堂吉诃德自然会拒绝相信。所以他们唯一的办法就是假装进入堂吉诃德所居住的骑士世界。所以他们想出了一个计划，他们遇到的一个年轻人会假扮为落难公主，需要堂吉诃德从一个巨人那里解救她。于是他们把堂吉诃德从山里引出来，他们想要抓住堂吉诃德并把他扔进笼子里，带回家乡。因此，随着故事的进一步展开，你可以看到堂吉诃德周围的每一个人都进入了小说的世界，成为了一群小堂吉诃德，每个人进入堂吉诃德的世界，都有自己的原因，而他们最终都发现了其中的乐趣。

Timothy Hampton: They really love pretending to be shepherds or pretending to be damsels in distress. It's great fun. So you can see that there's a kind of enchantment of the world where everybody turns into some form of Don Quixote, and that's where you can see how Cervantes is discovering what a brilliant idea this is, and he can spin it out, and spin it out, and spin it out. 

蒂莫西·汉普顿：他们真的很喜欢扮演牧羊人或遇难的少女，是很有趣的经历。这个世界的魅力被展现出来，每个人都变成了某种形式的堂吉诃德。你也可以从此看到塞万提斯是如何展现如此绝妙的一个想法，他一步一步，渐渐将主题慢慢展开。

Zachary Davis: They finally get Don Quixote back to his village and this concludes part one, the first half of the novel.

扎卡里·戴维斯：最终，他们将堂吉诃德带回了家乡。小说的第一部分也在此完结。

Timothy Hampton: Then what happens is something really extraordinary which is that, and this is real this is not in the novel, the first part of the novel was so successful that between part one and part two, during the 10 years when Cervantes was working on the second part of the novel, somebody else published a sequel to part one, a writer named Avellaneda. 

蒂莫西·汉普顿：然后发生了一件非常不寻常的事情，是在真实世界发生的，不是小说里的。小说的第一部分非常成功，在第二部分发表前的10年时间里，塞万提斯在创作第二部分，有另一位名叫阿维兰达的作家出版了第一部分的续集。

Zachary Davis: Cervantes had a few options for what to do. He could have stopped writing part two. He could have ignored the unauthorized sequel. But instead, he decided to incorporate this false sequel into hispart two of Don Quixote. 

扎卡里·戴维斯：塞万提斯有几个可以做的选择。他可以停止第二部分的创作，可以忽略未经授权的续集。但恰恰相反，他决定将这一假冒的续集纳入《堂吉诃德》的第二部分。

Timothy Hampton: So as part two opens, Don Quixote is back in his village and Sancho Panza comes to visit him, and a neighbor comes to visit him and the neighbor says, “Have you heard? There's a story of The Adventures of Don Quixote and Sancho Panza written by someone called Avellaneda and it's incredibly popular. And it tells us that Don Quixote was a coward and that Sancho was a liar, and that this happened and this happened”, in which case Quixote says, “No! None of that happened.” 

蒂莫西·汉普顿：随着第二部分展开，堂吉诃德回到了家乡，桑丘·潘沙来拜访他，又有一位邻居来拜访他。邻居说道，“你听说了吗？有一个叫阿维兰达的人写了一个叫做《堂吉诃德和桑丘·潘沙历险记》的故事，非常受欢迎。这个故事告诉我们，堂吉诃德是个懦夫，桑丘是个骗子，发生了这样、那样的事情。”在这个情况下，堂吉诃德否认到，“不！这些都没有发生。”

Timothy Hampton: So now we have this kind of marvelous kind of, it's like playing three dimensional chess. Now there are two Don Quixotes running around in the world of the second half of Cervantes’s novel. There's the one that we read about, and then there's the one that Avellaneda wrote about, and Don Quixote has to prove to the world that he's the real one and not the one that you read about in the spurious sequel to part one. So everywhere he goes, he meets these people and they go, “Oh yeah, we read your story. We know all about you.” So now Cervantes gets into a really great problem, which is again a very contemporary problem, which is, what do you do when you don't have control over your own, as we would say now, you don't have control over your own narrative, when somebody else is telling your story for you and you and you need to claim that for yourself. I mean, this is a problem in the age of social media. This is the problem that we all face. 

蒂莫西·汉普顿：这就像是在下三维棋一样巧妙。在塞万提斯的第二部分小说里，有两个堂吉诃德出现。其中一个堂吉诃德是我们之前读到的，另一个堂吉诃德来自阿维兰尼达笔下。堂吉诃德需要证明自己是真的，而在伪造的续集里的堂吉诃德并不是真的。堂吉诃德每到一处，他遇到的人都会说“是的，我们读了你的故事，我们知道你的所有故事。”塞万提斯在这里提出了一个值得深思的现代问题，即当你对自己失去控制时，你应该怎么做。就像我们现在说的，当你不能掌握自己的叙事时，有人在周围讲述关于你的故事，你必须为自己正名。这是社交媒体时代，我们都面临的一个大问题。

Zachary Davis: Quixote has to prove that he is the real Quixote—not that other guy. He has to prove it to everyone else and he has to prove it to himself. As a result, part two of the novel is full of these deep existential questions where Don Quixote is interrogating his own identity. Meanwhile, the outside world is calling into question his adventures in part one.  

扎卡里·戴维斯：堂吉诃德证明了自己是真正的堂吉诃德，而另一个人不是。他需要向周围每一个人证明，也要向自己证明。因此，小说的第二部分充满了深刻的存在主义问题，堂吉诃德一直在质问自己的身份。同时，外界也对他在第一部分中的冒险提出了质疑。

Timothy Hampton: And so now, Sancho and Don Quixote have to defend their own story—they have to defend not only themselves against the spurious version of their lives, but they have to defend themselves against the book that we have just read where we've been able to spot these kind of, you know, mistakes, logical mistakes in the plot. I mean, it's absolutely fantastic. And it simply gets wilder and wilder as the story unfolds. And it really becomes a kind of post-modern story which is all about, you know, multiple narratives, and how can you tell which one is which? It's like something out of a short story by Borges or, you know, some kind of novel by Philip Roth where you have narrators, on narrators, on narrators.

蒂莫西·汉普顿：所以，桑丘和堂吉诃德要捍卫自己的故事。他们不仅仅要反驳那个假冒的版本，也要反驳我们刚刚看到的充满逻辑错误的故事。这实在太精彩了。故事愈发狂野地推进着。这部小说也完全成为了一部后现代主义作品，多重叙事，无法分辨什么是什么。这就好像博尔赫斯的短篇小说，或者是菲利普·罗斯的小说，一层嵌套一层。

Zachary Davis: In the end, Don Quixote is challenged to a duel by his neighbor. Just like in part one, the neighbor is trying to get Don Quixote to give up this whole knight errant thing. So the neighbor says that if he beats Don Quixote, then Don Quixote has to give up being a knight and return to his village.

扎卡里·戴维斯：最终，堂吉诃德被他的邻居挑战，进行决斗。和第一部分如出一辙，这位邻居试图让堂吉诃德放弃做骑士的念头。所以邻居说，如果自己打败了堂吉诃德，那么堂吉诃德就得放弃当骑士，回到村庄。

Timothy Hampton: And Don Quixote says, “Okay.” So they fight and Don Quixote is defeated and agrees to go back to his village. So at the end of the novel, they go back to their village, and he of course, falls ill and he's on his deathbed and everybody is around him and he's about to die. And on his deathbed, he renounces knight errantry. 

蒂莫西·汉普顿：堂吉诃德说“好的。”于是他们打了起来。堂吉诃德输了，并同意回到村庄。所以在小说的最后，他们一起回到了村庄，堂吉诃德病倒了。他躺在病榻上，每一个人都围绕着他，他即将死去。在弥留之际，他放弃了骑士精神。

Timothy Hampton: And he says, “I'm no longer Don Quixote of La Mancha, but I am Alonso Quijano The Good, Alonso Quijano, whose customs and behavior have led him to be called the good. And I give up Don Quixote and I give up at knight errantry. And, you know, I am just who I am.” And with that, he dies. And then the narrator comes in and says, “For me, Don Quixote was born and I for him. His job was to act and mine was to write.” And then he hangs up his pen and says, “Now it's over.” 

蒂莫西·汉普顿：他说：“我不再是拉曼恰的堂吉诃德，我是好人阿隆索·吉哈诺，因为习惯和行为所以我被称为好人。我放弃了堂吉诃德，也放弃了骑士精神。我就是我。”就这样，他离开了这个世界。然后叙述者进来说：“对我来说，堂吉诃德是天生的，我是因他而生的。他的责任是要付诸行动，而我的工作则是写作。”然后他准备停笔，说：“现在结束了。”

Zachary Davis: Cervantes enjoyed writing these stories as much as Don Quixote enjoyed living them. But they both knew it couldn’t go on forever. 

扎卡里·戴维斯：塞万提斯非常享受创作这些故事，一如堂吉诃德享受他的生活。但他们俩都知道这些事情不可能永远延续下去。

Timothy Hampton: As the second half of the novel goes on, he has increasingly realized that the joke is getting thin and that, you know, it really isn't working anymore. And Don Quixote also realizes it, I mean, things happen to him and he just realizes that he's too old, he can't be a knight errant. As virtuous as he may be, and as well-intentioned as he may be, he's really ineffective. And you know, you can only be ineffective so many times before you realize that you're ineffective, right? 

蒂莫西·汉普顿：随着小说后半部分的推进，小说的叙事者愈发意识到，这个笑话越来越不好笑，它真的不再起作用了。堂吉诃德也意识到了这一点，我想说的是，有一些事情发生在他身上，令他意识到自己太老了，他不能再成为一个骑士。尽管他品德高尚，充满善意，但他的所作所为没有实效。在一个人意识到自己没用之前，他只可能做很多次无用的事，不是吗？

Timothy Hampton: And so, he gives it up at the end, and it's very moving. I mean, I've taught this many times, and I once had a student who came to me and said, “I cried at the end of the novel. I said, ‘Don Quixote, don't do it. Don't give it up, you know, go back out on the road again.’” 

蒂莫西·汉普顿：堂吉诃德最终还是放弃了，那是非常令人感动的片段。我教过这部小说很多次，曾经有一位学生来找我说：“小说的结尾把我看哭了。我想说，‘堂吉诃德，不要这么做，不要放弃，再次出发吧。’”

Zachary Davis: But Cervantes and Don Quixote weren’t the only ones the stories were for. They provided comfort and escape for readers in Spain at the time.

扎卡里·戴维斯：这些故事不仅仅是为了塞万提斯和堂吉诃德，它们为当时西班牙的众多读者提供了慰藉和树洞。

Timothy Hampton: And there really is this sense that the world of 17th century Spain is so brutal, that fictions of chivalry are the only thing that make it worthwhile, that make it magical or that give it any kind of ethical or moral content. 

蒂莫西·汉普顿：17世纪的西班牙是如此的野蛮，骑士小说是唯一有价值和有魔力的东西，为这个时代赋予一些伦理和道德的价值。

Timothy Hampton: And so by the time you get to the end of the novel, you realize that in some way a life without fictions is really a life not worth living. And that's why Don Quixote dies after he gives it up.

蒂莫西·汉普顿：当你读到小说结尾时，你会意识到没有小说的生活并不值得过。这也是为什么堂吉诃德在放弃骑士精神后便离开了这个世界。

Zachary Davis: So you mentioned at least the immediate influence of part one is that it was a bestseller and made him famous. Can you tell us about how it was immediately received and how would you try to convey to our listeners the cultural influence of this book? 

扎卡里·戴维斯：你之前提到，小说第一部分最直接的效应是作品的畅销提升了塞万提斯的知名度。你能像我们的听众介绍一下当时这本书的反响如何？以及这部作品对后世文化的影响？

Timothy Hampton: It's certainly given us a kind of social type, right? I mean, you know, literature gives us social types. Machiavelli gives us the type of the Machiavel. Shakespeare gives us the type of Hamlet, the hesitant actor who we see not only in other works of literature, but in real life. So, Cervantes does give us this type of mad dreamer who, for all of his madness, nevertheless has a kind of virtue that he exercises and that puts the rest of the world to shame. So I think that's just a kind of cultural influence. 

蒂莫西·汉普顿：这部作品无疑为我们塑造了一种社会角色。文学作品总是在创造社会角色。马基雅维利创造了马基雅维这一类角色。莎士比亚塑造了哈姆雷特这类型的角色，塑造了哈姆雷特这个犹豫不决的人物，这不仅出现在其他文学作品中，也是现实生活的缩影。因此，塞万提斯确实为我们塑造了这种疯狂的梦想家形象，尽管他很疯狂，但他身上也有一种美德，令世界上的其他人感到羞愧。所以我认为这只是一种文化层面的影响。

Timothy Hampton: Within the history of literature, I think Cervantes does a number of things that are extraordinarily important. He invents this idea of the kind of self-conscious, playful, ironic novel where you have a narrator who interjects, who says, “Dear reader, this is happening, that's happening.” And when we think of the rise of the novel as the great literary genre of the modern age in the 17th century and then later, especially in the 18th century, for example, in writers like Fielding or Laurence Sterne, or Diderot in France, those people were all deeply indebted to Cervantes’s innovations in narration—that you could interrupt the narration and have the narrator come in and become a character. You could do all kinds of stuff. You could introduce a found manuscript in the middle of the story. All of that kind of inventiveness, I think, goes back to Cervantes. 

蒂莫西·汉普顿：在文学史中，塞万提斯做了一些特别重要的事情。他发明了这种具有自我意识的、俏皮的、具有讽刺意味的小说，叙述者会在小说里现身，插入自己的旁白：告诉读者，正在发生这个、正在发生那个。在17世纪，小说逐渐兴起为一种重要的现代文学体裁，特别是在之后的18世纪，菲尔丁或者劳伦斯·斯特恩，或者法国的狄德罗等作家，都深深地被塞万提斯在叙述方面的新尝试所影响。你可以打断叙述，把叙述者引入为一个角色。你可以做各种各样的事情。你可以在故事的中间引入一份发现的手稿。所有这些创新的理念，我认为都可以追溯到塞万提斯。

Timothy Hampton: And you know, we find it, of course, through much of modern literature, even up to the current day. If you read authors like Salman Rushdie or Milan Kundera, who's been very explicit about his great debt to Cervantes. And then the entire history of the Latin American Boom novel that came of age in the 1950s and 60s, we think of writers such as Gabriel García Márquez, the Mexican novelist Carlos Fuentes was obsessed with Cervantes and wrote a book about him, which hasn't been translated, but it's a very beautiful book called Don Quixote, or the Critique of Reading all of those great novelists from Latin America, Vargas Llosa, they're really under the sway of Cervantes in many ways.

蒂莫西·汉普顿：当然这种影响是我们通过许多现代文学，甚至直到今天的作品发现的。如果你阅读像萨尔曼·鲁西迪或米兰·昆德拉之类的作家，他们一直非常明确地表示自己继承自塞万提斯。在20世纪50、60年代，拉丁美洲文学大爆炸时期出现的小说，以加西亚·马尔克斯和墨西哥小说家卡洛斯·富恩特斯为代表的作家们都十分沉迷塞万提斯的作品，富恩特斯甚至写了一本关于他的书，叫《堂吉诃德或批判阅读》。所有来自拉美地区的伟大小说家，例如巴尔加斯·略萨，他们在许多方面都受到塞万提斯的影响。

Timothy Hampton: There's also, interestingly, a strong tradition in Eastern Europe. I mean, there's a famous statement by Dostoyevsky, which they put on the back of the Penguin Classics so you'll know that it's worth reading where he says, “This is the greatest expression of the human soul.” But it's not only Dostoyevsky, there's a great Russian writer named Bulgakov, who in his novel The Master and Margarita, is full of references to Don Quixote. Thomas Mann was obsessed with Cervantes. Kafka was obsessed with Cervantes. 

蒂莫西·汉普顿：有趣的是，东欧还有一项非常强大的传统。陀思妥耶夫斯基有一句著名的评论，印刷在书的封底，让你知道这本书值得一读，他说道，“这是人类灵魂最伟大的表达。”不单单是陀思妥耶夫斯基，伟大的俄罗斯作家布尔加科夫在自己的小说《大师和玛格丽特》里，多处都致敬了《堂吉诃德》。托马斯·曼和卡夫卡也非常着迷于塞万提斯。

Zachary Davis: I mean, even the idea that something deeply comical could also be profoundly philosophical and metaphysical, so you can kind of have the pleasure of two levels, I mean, it's just a damn funny story, but is it about the possibilities of re-enchanting, a fallen modern world?

扎卡里·戴维斯：即使是带有浓厚喜剧色彩的故事，也可以传递出深刻的哲学和形而上学理念，你可以获得两个层次的快乐。这是一个有趣得“要死”的故事，但它也展现了再次为堕落的现代世界注入魅力的可能性。

Timothy Hampton: That's the question, right? And in some ways. I mean, you're exactly right that it goes right to the heart of the problem of modernity, of what it means to live in a disenchanted world where old myths, old religions, I mean, certainly not for Cervantes, I mean, Cervantes is you know, a deep, deep, probably, a deeply believing Orthodox Catholic, I mean, that's not nothing close to being an Enlightenment atheist, but any moral system or any system of ethics that relies on a sense of the magical as all religions do, that relies on a sense of the divine, of something that we can't see, you know, when those kinds of systems become questioned, what can put them back? Who can put the genie back in the bottle?

蒂莫西·汉普顿：这就是很多方面的问题所在，不是吗？你说得很对，它直指现代性问题的核心，即生活在一个幻灭的世界里意味着什么，在这个世界里，古老的神话，古老的宗教都不复存在。当然不是说塞万提斯，他是极度虔诚的正统天主教徒，和启蒙运动中的无神论者不同。但任何像宗教一样的道德或伦理体系都依赖于一种神奇的感觉，依赖于一种神圣的感觉，依赖于我们看不到的东西，当这类体系受到质疑时，如何才能恢复？谁能把精灵放回瓶子里？

Zachary Davis: Cervantes believed in the power and necessity of fiction. In Don Quixote, he gave us a character who refuses to accept the reality of his own time, and decides instead to live in a fictional world of his own making. He does so in order to find a place for himself and because he prefers the beauty and meaning of the world he imagines. But as the story progresses, Don Quixote succeeds in bringing more and more people into his fiction, and thus transforming his imagined vision into a new social reality.

扎卡里·戴维斯：塞万提斯对小说的力量和必要性深信不疑。在《堂吉诃德》中，塞万提斯塑造的主人公形象拒绝接受当时的现实，决心生活在自己虚构的世界里。他这么做是为了给自己找一个安身之处，他更偏爱自己臆想出来的世界的美丽和意义。但随着故事的展开，堂吉诃德成功将越来越多的人带入他虚构的世界里，将他的设想转换为新的社会实景。

Timothy Hampton: It invented a new way of thinking about time—that a character who is out of step with his time can also, in some ways, be ahead of it, even though he's behind it. I would think that is a new invention. It changed the way in which we think about our relationship to storytelling, and since we know that human beings are human beings because of the way they tell stories about themselves, about the people around them, any work of art that recalibrates how we think about storytelling is changing the world.

蒂莫西·汉普顿：它开创了一种新的思考时间的方式。一个人与自己所在的时代格格不入，但他在某些层面也可以领先于自己的时代，尽管他是有些落伍的。这是一个全新的理念，它改变了我们思考人与故事之间联系的方式，因为我们知道，人类之所以是人类，是建基于人类叙述自身和周围人故事的方式。任何艺术作品，当它在重新调整我们对叙事的叙述，那么我们就可以说这部作品是在改变世界。

Zachary Davis: Writ Large is a production of Ximalaya. Writ Large is produced by Jack Pombriant, and me, Zachary Davis. Script editing is by Galen Beebe. We get help from Feiran Du, Ariel Liu, and Monica Zhang. Our theme song is by Ian Coss. Don’t miss an episode. Subscribe today in the Ximalaya app. Thanks for listening. See you next time.

扎卡里·戴维斯：本节目由喜马拉雅独家制作播出。感谢您的收听，我们下期再见！