【英文原声版86】Manan Ahmed ：The Wretched of the Earth

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Zachary Davis: In 1925, on the French-occupied island of Martinique, one of the most prominent voices in post-colonial theory was born, Frantz Fanon. 

扎卡里·戴维斯：1925 年，弗朗茨·法农出生在法国占领的马提尼克岛上，他是最杰出的后殖民主义思想家之一。

Zachary Davis: He was born to parents of both African and French descent, and was brought up in the ways of French culture. For most of Fanon’s life, he identified with French nationality. He even fought forFrance in WWII. But despite his initial loyalty to France, the French colonizers didn’t see Fanon as equal.  

扎卡里·戴维斯：法农继承了父母的非洲和法国血统。他在法国文化熏陶下长大。在一生的大部分时间里，法农都认同自己法国人的身份，也曾在二战中为法国效力。 尽管法农对法国忠心耿耿，法国殖民者却没有平等地对待他。

Zachary Davis: For centuries, Europeans justified their colonial conquests by claiming it was a civilizing mission—that they were bringing these other nations and people into the modern era. 

扎卡里·戴维斯：在几百年的时间里，欧洲人都将殖民征服美化为一项文明使命，声称是为了带领其他国家和人民迈向现代。

Zachary Davis: In his early adulthood, Fanon began to see behind this myth, and saw colonialism for what it really was. Fanon became a vocal critic of colonialism. In his 1961 text The Wretched of the Earth, Fanon wrote about the psychological effects of colonialism, and the psychological hurdles of decolonization. 

扎卡里·戴维斯：在成年后，法农认清了殖民主义粉饰之下的真面目。法农直言不讳地批判殖民主义。1961年，法农出版了《全世界受苦的人》，他在书中阐述了殖民主义造成的心理问题及反殖民过程中需要克服的心理障碍。

Manan Ahmed: So one of the things that I remember, was that very basic claim that Fanon begins with which is that, “The last shall be the first, and the first shall be the last,” this idea that decolonization has to upend the colonial order. 

马南·艾哈迈德：我对这本书印象最深刻的一点是，法农理论的原点：“最后的将是第一个，第一个将是最后的”，他从此衍生推论，去殖民化是对殖民秩序的彻底颠覆。

Manan Ahmed: My name is Manan Ahmed. I am an associate professor of history at the Columbia History Department.  

马南·艾哈迈德：我是马南·艾哈迈德，是哥伦比亚大学历史学系的副教授。

Zachary Davis: Fanon saw colonization as an inherently violent process, and therefore believed decolonization had to be as well. For Fanon, the only way decolonization could fully happen was through a violent struggle between the last, also known as the colonized, and the first, or the colonizers, where the colonized emerged on top. They would become the first, and the colonizers would become the last. 

扎卡里·戴维斯：法农将殖民化视为一种固有的暴力过程，所以他认为去殖民化也必然是一个暴力过程。在去殖民化进程中，被殖民者和殖民者间的暴力冲突不可避免。被殖民者是殖民秩序中“最末端”，但将跃升成为“最顶端”；而殖民者则会从在这个秩序“最顶端”的位置跌落至“最末端”。

Zachary Davis: Fanon didn’t think full decolonization was about returning to pre colonial life, nor was it about fully adopting the culture of the colonizers. He believed a new national culture would emerge when a nation turns its attention away from its oppressors and towards its own people. 

扎卡里·戴维斯：法农认为去殖民化并不是回到殖民之前的生活，也不是全盘接受殖民者的文化。他认为当一个国家将注意力从殖民者转移到人民，新的民族文化将会产生。

Manan Ahmed: And so I think the appeal of this text really is in that second half, right, where decolonization, and Third World, and the future, which is the now, right, the future is that now, the struggle is right now, but the future of an emancipated world, emancipated from colonialism, he kind of lays out a blueprint for it. And I think that's what I think is the most incredibly important parts of the book.

马南·艾哈迈德：这本书的主要观点体现在第二部分，关于去殖民化、第三世界和未来的论述。他描绘了未来的蓝图，一个从殖民主义中解放出来的未来世界，这是我心目中全书最重要的部分。

Zachary Davis: Welcome to Writ Large, a podcast about how books change the world. I’m Zachary Davis. In each episode, I talk with one of the world’s leading scholars about one book that changed the course of history. For this episode, I sat down with professor Manan Ahmed to discuss Frantz Fanon’s The Wretched of the Earth.

扎卡里·戴维斯：欢迎收听：改变你和世界的100书，在这里我们为大家讲述改变世界的书籍。我是扎卡里·戴维斯。每一集，我都会和一位世界顶尖学者讨论一本影响历史进程的书。在本集，我将和马南·艾哈迈德教授一起讨论弗朗茨·法农的《全世界受苦的人》。

Zachary Davis: Frantz Fanon was born in 1925 on the French-occupied Carribean island of Martinique. Fanon’s father was a descendant of enslaved Africans, and his mother was of African and French descent. 

扎卡里·戴维斯：弗朗茨·法农于1925 年出生在加勒比海的法国殖民地马提尼克岛，他的父亲是被奴役的非洲人后裔，母亲则是非洲人和法国人的后裔。

Zachary Davis: Fanon grew up middle class, and was steeped in French culture. He attended the most prestigious high school in Martinique and studied with writer, poet, and politician Aime Cesaire. Cesaire spent his life speaking out against European colonialism, and specifically the myth that colonization was a civilizing mission. 

扎卡里·戴维斯：法农出生在一个中产阶级家庭，受到法国文化的熏陶。他就读于马提尼克岛上最负盛名的高中，师从作家、诗人和政治家艾梅·塞泽尔。塞泽尔毕生致力于反对欧洲殖民主义，尤其反对文明使命论。

Zachary Davis: Early in his career, Cesaire developed the term “Negritude”. This was an empowering term for celebrating and taking pride in being of African descent. Cesaire was an incredible influence on young Fanon, and helped him start to see behind the veil of colonization.

扎卡里·戴维斯：塞泽尔早期提出了“黑人性”的概念，鼓励黑人以非裔血统为傲。 塞泽尔对年轻的法农产生了深远的影响，他也帮助法农看清了殖民化在卸掉修饰后的真面目。

Manan Ahmed: Through Cesaire he gets exposed to the concept of Negritude. It’s also through Cesaire that he really figures out what the theoretical models are that he will go on to challenge, including Marxist thought and certainly including communism.

马南·艾哈迈德：通过塞泽尔，法农接触到了“黑人性”的概念。也是通过塞泽尔，法农找到了自己想要反驳的理论，包括马克思主义思想，当然也包括共产主义。

Zachary Davis: Fanon finished school when he was 18, right in the middle of WWII. He left Martinique and headed to Europe to fight for France.

扎卡里·戴维斯：法农18岁高中毕业，当时正好处于第二次世界大战期间。法农离开马提尼克岛，前往欧洲为法国而战。

Zachary Davis: A few years earlier, Nazi Germany invaded France and occupied much of the northern part of France. The southern part of the country and its colonies were ruled by the French general Philippe Pétain. Pétain got rid of the old French government and established The French State, also known as Vichy France. His regime was officially independent, but collaborated with Nazi Germany. Vichy France was authoritarian, traditionalist, xenophobic, and anti-Semitic. 

扎卡里·戴维斯：几年前，纳粹德国入侵法国并占领了法国北部的大部分地区。法国南部及殖民地区由法国将军菲利普·贝当统治。贝当摆脱了法国旧政府，建立了法兰西国，又称维希法国。 贝当的独立政权选择与纳粹德国合作。 维希法国是专制的、传统的、仇外的和反犹太主义的。

Zachary Davis: An organization called the Free French Forces quickly assembled. This group was essentially the pre-war French government-in-exile, led by Charles de Gaulle. They were fighting Nazi Germany and Philippe Pétain’s Vichy regime. 18 year old Fanon joined this group when he arrived in France. 

扎卡里·戴维斯：名为自由法国的组织也在迅速集结力量。这个阵营本质上是战前的法国流亡政府，由戴高乐领导。 他们与纳粹德国和菲利普·贝当的维希政权斗争。18岁的法农抵达法国后便加入了这个组织。

Manan Ahmed: He’s someone who fights for France, fights for France in the sense that he's also someone who takes up the French cause in the second war and is incredibly engaged in the struggle against Nazi and the National Socialists. So someone who is not only kind of brought up in the colony, but someone who at some point I think identifies with the French worldview in a sense. 

马南·艾哈迈德：法农是为法国而战的人，他在二战中躬身参与同纳粹和国家社会主义的斗争。法农不同于一般在殖民地长大的人民，他在某种程度上认可法国的世界观。

Zachary Davis: Fanon was injured in the war and was honored with a medal. During his time in Europe during the war, Fanon experienced a lot of racism, both from the white Europeans he was fighting with, and from civilians and journalists he encountered. And that racism followed him from the army to his next academic pursuit: dentistry.

扎卡里·戴维斯：法农在战争中受伤，也获得了荣誉勋章。在欧洲参战期间，法农感受到了深刻的种族歧视，这种歧视来自于并肩作战的欧洲白人，也来自于他遇到的平民和记者。法农离开军队，想在口腔医学领域继续求学，但种族歧视始终伴随他左右。

Manan Ahmed: So if you think about dentistry as something tied to one of one of the very primary offices on a human body, and how as a practice, as a medical practice, how intimate it is. Right? Like someone is all up in your mouth. And to think about what that would mean for an African diaspora man in colonized Martinique and obviously as a medical professional. Is that intimacy allowed? And it wasn't allowed, actually. 

马南·艾哈迈德：口腔医学与人体最重要的部位之一口腔息息相关。试想一下，牙科治疗时医生和病人是多么的亲密？牙科医生仿佛在病人的嘴里。这对于来自马提尼克殖民地的非裔移民意味着什么？这样亲密的行为能被允许吗？实际上，他们不被允许从事如此亲密的医疗行为。

Zachary Davis: His dental studies didn’t last long. After just three weeks in dental school, Fanon changed direction.

扎卡里·戴维斯：法农的口腔科求学之路并没有走很远，三个星期之后，他转变了方向。

Manan Ahmed: He struggles to become a dentist and has to switch towards psychiatry, you know, another type of intimacy, right, with the mind of the colonizer, and the mind of the colonized.

马南·艾哈迈德：法农无法成为牙科医生，不得不转向精神病学方向，但其实这也是一种亲密行为，与殖民者、被殖民者在思想上的亲密连结。

Zachary Davis: In addition to his psychiatric studies, Fanon also studied drama, literature, and philosophy. And he began to write. 

扎卡里·戴维斯：除了精神病学，法农还学习了戏剧、文学和哲学。他也开始写作。

Manan Ahmed: He writes about the kind of racism that he faces, especially in his first book, Black Skin, White Masks. He's very young when he writes that. I think he’s twenty five years old. And he says that he faced a lot of racism, and that's what made him kind of change his outlook.

马南·艾哈迈德：法农在自己的第一部作品《黑皮肤、白面具》中，记录下他所面临的种族歧视。法农发表这部作品时还非常年轻，只有25岁。他在书里写道，他面对大量的种族歧视，正是这些歧视改变了他今后的人生规划。

Manan Ahmed: So I think that's where, you know, you see this shift happening. Right. So for someone who has fought for France to move to the Metropole from the colony, to try to kind of go up the ranks as the colony allows you to do, and then to hit that wall, and to face that racism. And I think that's where his kind of intellectual world switched to diagnosing and thinking about colonization itself. 

马南·艾哈迈德：这是法农思想的转折点。他曾经从殖民地来到大都市，加入为法国而战的队伍，在允许的范围内向殖民秩序的上层流动，直到触及种族主义，法农开始转而反思、剖析殖民主义。

Zachary Davis: Fanon practiced psychiatry for a year in France and then moved to Algeria. In Algeria he worked as a psychiatrist in a French hospital.  

扎卡里·戴维斯：法农在法国学习了一年的精神病学后，前往阿尔及利亚，在当地一家法国医院成为了一名精神科医生。

Zachary Davis: At the time, Algeria was under French rule, and unrest was brewing. The Algerian nationalist political party wanted independence from French rule. In 1954 the Algerian War of Independence broke out. Fanon, who no longer identified as French but now identified as a subject of French colonization, joined the war. But this time, he was fighting against France. 

扎卡里·戴维斯：当时的阿尔及利亚被法国统治，社会的动荡正在酝酿中。阿尔及利亚民族主义政党希望摆脱法国统治而独立。1954年，阿尔及利亚独立战争爆发。法农不再认同法国人的身份，他意识到自己是法国殖民的对象。法农加入了独立战争，不过这一次，他站在了法国的对立面。

Zachary Davis: So, you know, it's amazing that he fought for France in a war and then ends up fighting against France in another war. Two wars in a life is unreal on opposite sides.

扎卡里·戴维斯：法农一生中，以不同的阵营参与了两次战争，一次为法国而战，一次与法国为敌，这是多么的不可思议。

Manan Ahmed: Absolutely. And you know, I think we can expand even someone like Ghandi, right, who again, very much believes in the English side of things, let's just say—goes to London, becomes a barrister, takes a job in South Africa, thinks he's one type of colonized subject. And then in South Africa, famously on a train is taught his colonial place and realises then that this is a figment. This is a colonial figment. This figment that we can hear you, we can train you, if you speak enough English or if you speak in a French. And if you fight for us and if you get these medals that you have access to the colonial world. And so that shattering of one's worldview, that is the colonial worldview rendered through the colonial kind of educational system.

马南·艾哈迈德：又比如甘地，他曾经对英国的说辞深信不疑，赴伦敦求学、当上大律师、在南非工作，但后来，他意识到自己无非是被英国殖民的对象。在前往南非的火车上，甘地被殖民主义狠狠打脸，他开始认清英国殖民统治营造出的虚伪假象。英国曾经号称会倾听被殖民者的意愿，会提供培训，只要被殖民者学会了英语或法语，为英国而战，获得勋章，他便可以加入殖民者的世界。殖民者通过殖民教育体系灌输这样的殖民世界观。

Manan Ahmed: So, in a way you can think of it as a radicalization. But Fanon, for example, in Wretched of the Earth says, “It's when you wake up from the dream.” Right. “It's when you say, ‘Oh, yeah, this is it. This is the reality that I have to now fight as a colonized subject.’ ”

马南·艾哈迈德：因此，你可以将这样的想法称之为激进主义。法农在《全世界受苦的人》 中写道“当你从梦中醒来，当你意识到，是的！我是被殖民的对象，应该起来反抗！”。

Zachary Davis: Two years later, Fanon resigned from his job at the French hospital. He wanted nothing to do with French colonialism—he wouldn’t even work in a French institution. In his letter of resignation, he wrote:

扎卡里·戴维斯：两年后，法农从法国医院辞职。他不想再与法国殖民主义有任何联系，甚至不愿在任何法国机构中工作，他在辞职信中写道：

Zachary Davis: “There comes a time when silence becomes dishonesty...For many months my conscience has been the seat of unpardonable debates...The decision I have reached is that I cannot continue to bear a responsibility at no matter what cost, on the false pretext that there is nothing else to be done”.

扎卡里·戴维斯：“总会有这样的时候，沉默等同于不诚实...... 几个月来，我的内心一直进行着不可原谅的辩论......我做出的决定是，我不能再不计代价，不能再以没有其他工作为借口，继续这份工作。”

Manan Ahmed: He's kind of expelled from Algeria by the French in ‘57.

马南·艾哈迈德：法农在1957年被法国政府驱逐出阿尔及利亚。

Zachary Davis: The French government ordered Fanon’s expulsion because he supported Algerian independence and the nationalist political party in Algeria. 

扎卡里·戴维斯：法国政府下令驱逐法农，原因是他支持阿尔及利亚独立，支持阿尔及利亚民族主义政党。

Zachary Davis: By this time, anticolonial activists were beginning to see some fruits of their labors. Fanon’s old high school teacher Aime Cesaire had published his landmark text Discourse on Colonialism. Indian lawyer and anti-colonial nationalist Mahatma Gandhi had led a successful nonviolent, passive resistance campaign against the British rule in India. Countries such as France and Britain had begun to decolonize parts of their empire. 

扎卡里·戴维斯：此时，反殖民主义者的努力初见成效。法农以前的高中老师艾梅·塞泽尔，发表了著作《关于殖民主义的话语》。印度律师、反殖民民族主义者圣雄甘地，发起了非暴力不合作运动，反对英国在印度的殖民统治，并且大获成功。法国、英国等国家开始结束对部分殖民地的统治。

Zachary Davis: Fanon saw the powerful effect that Cesaire and Gandhi’s efforts were having on the colonial world. 

扎卡里·戴维斯：法农见证了塞泽尔和甘地的声音带给殖民地的巨大力量。

Zachary Davis: Once he left Algeria, Fanon then moved to Tunis and began writing for an Algerian French-language resistance newspaper. He also served as ambassador to Ghana. 

扎卡里·戴维斯：法农在离开阿尔及利亚后来到突尼斯，他开始为一家阿尔及利亚独立倾向的法语报社供稿。他也出任驻加纳大使。

Zachary Davis: Then, things took a turn for the worse. In 1960, Fanon was diagnosed with leukemia. Around this time, Fanon traveled to Rome to meet with one of his intellectual idols, the French existentialist Jean-Paul Sartre, who agreed to write the forward to Fanon’s next book The Wretched of the Earth. Fanon resonated with many of Sartre’s ideas on how categorizing people by race and religion can lead to and fuel oppression.  

扎卡里·戴维斯：天不遂人愿。1960年，法农被诊断为白血病。法农当时正在罗马拜访一位他十分敬重的思想家，法国存在主义学者让-保罗·萨特。萨特同意为法农即将发表的《全世界受苦的人》作序。萨特的很多观点引起了法农的共鸣，比如按照种族和宗教将人分类会导致和助长强权压迫。

Zachary Davis: Fanon eventually headed back to Tunis and wrote The Wretched of the Earth. Shortly after, he died from leukemia at the age of 36. 

扎卡里·戴维斯：法农最终回到突尼斯并写下了《全世界受苦的人》。不久之后，法农因白血病离世，享年36岁。

Manan Ahmed: So, you know, it was a very short life in a sense. 

马南·艾哈迈德：法农的一生非常短暂。

Zachary Davis: So the text itself, The Wretched of the Earth, what is his argument? 

扎卡里·戴维斯：在《全世界受苦的人》这本书中，法农主要想表达的观点是什么？

Manan Ahmed: It's written in the very last months of his life. So it's basically more or less the last text he writes. He knows he's dying. He knows he has very little time left. Obviously, he's fighting, you know. Famously I think Simone de Beauvoir describes the meeting with Sartre and him where he's already asked Sartre to write the foreword to the text The Wretched of the Earth.

马南·艾哈迈德：法农在人生最后几个月里写下了这本书，可以说是他留下的最后的文字。他知道自己剩下的时间不多了，因此，他时刻都在与生命斗争。西蒙娜·德·波伏娃记录下自己与萨特和法农会面时的情形，当时法农已经邀请萨特为自己的书作序。

Manan Ahmed: She describes him as very eager to have a longer publishing life. Right. “I'm going to write this and I'm going to write this.” And, you know, he doesn't. I mean, even when he’s diagnosed, it's very much understood that he has maybe a year left. And so the text that we have, The Wretched of the Earth is, I think, both composed of things he had already written that either he expands or develops in particular kind of ways or stuff that he kind of dictates to his wife and to another secretary from scratch as he is kind of without access to his writing, as in his without access to books and etc.

马南·艾哈迈德：她的记录提及了法农渴望更长的写作生涯，“我要写这个，我也要写这个”，但是最终他没有做到。在法农被确诊为白血病时，他就被告知生命只剩下大约一年的时间了。所以我们现在看到的《全世界受苦的人》，一部分由法农亲自写下，以他的方式展开论述的观点；另一部分是他在无法写作时，向妻子和秘书口述的。

Manan Ahmed: So it's very much a curious text in the sense that it's compilations, or it's amalgamations of different things that are done in different times of his life, as well as stuff that's kind of his practice, his practice as a psychiatrist. And then a kind of  summary of his kind of intellectual reading, not only of the conditions in the Algerian struggle for independence, but across Africa and then by extension, beyond the Third World.

马南·艾哈迈德：这本书是有一些不同的，它汇聚了法农在人生不同时期的所思所想，以及他作为精神科医生的实践经验。这本书也总结了他的阅读思考，不仅仅是对阿尔及利亚独立战争，他的思考涉及整个非洲，甚至延伸到第三世界之外。

Zachary Davis: In The Wretched of the Earth, Fanon analyzes the psychological effects of colonization on an individual and national level. 

扎卡里·戴维斯：在《全世界受苦的人》一书中，法农分析了殖民化在个体和国家层面造成的心理影响。

Zachary Davis:The first part of the text is called “On Violence”. Here, Fanon explores the role of violence in both colonization and decolonization. He argues that decolonization must be a violent process because “violence is the only language spoken by the colonist”. He saw colonialism as an inherently violent system, in which non-violence only empowers the elites. 

扎卡里·戴维斯：书的第一部分是“论暴力”。法农在这一部分论述了暴力在殖民化和去殖民化中的作用。他认为去殖民化必然是一个暴力的过程，因为“暴力是殖民者使用的唯一语言”。他认为殖民主义本身就是一个暴力系统，非暴力只会巩固精英阶层的权力。

Zachary Davis:The next section of the text is called “On National Culture”. In this part, Fanon explores how previously colonized nations can move forward and form a new national culture. He argues that instead of returning to their pre-colonial culture, these new national cultures should be built on the resistance against colonial domination. 

扎卡里·戴维斯：书的第二部分是“论民族文化“。在这一部分，法农探索了曾经被殖民的国家如何走出殖民阴影，形成新的民族文化。他认为新的民族文化并非回到被殖民前的文化，而是在反抗殖民统治的基础之上建立新的文化。

Manan Ahmed: And then there's the last bit, which is “Colonial War and Mental Disorder”, which is sort of like these case studies that are a part of the text. 

马南·艾哈迈德：书的最后一部分“殖民战争与精神错乱”，主要是案例分析。

Manan Ahmed: And so, in this as a whole, what he's taking is, I think, Aime Cesaire’s kind of explication on what colonialism is as a discourse, and really kind of positing decolonization as the necessary step. And what does it mean? What does decolonization mean? In order to think of decolonization, he has to explain what colonisation means. Right. And then if decolonization has to operate in a particular way, then how do we kind of go about building the kind of argument, intellectual argument for that? 

马南·艾哈迈德：整本书中，法农试图论述的内容，包括艾梅·塞泽尔式对殖民主义的解释，以及去殖民化的必要性。去殖民化意味着什么？为了回答这个问题，法农先解释了殖民化的含义，再衍生论证了为什么去殖民化必须以某种特定形式运作，而我们要如何为此建立相关的概念论述？

Zachary Davis: Fanon was influenced by Aime Cesaire’s term ‘thingification’ which he developed in his 1950 text Discourse on Colonialism. In the text, Cesaire proposes the following equation: colonization = ‘thingification’. What he means by this is that through colonization, the colonizer recognizes the land, people, and resources they are colonizing simply as things, or commodities.   

扎卡里·戴维斯：法农受到“物化”概念的影响。这个概念最早由塞泽尔在1950年出版的《殖民论述》中提出。在这本书中，塞泽尔提出了一个等式，殖民化等于物化。塞泽尔认为在殖民化的过程中，殖民者将殖民地的土地、人民和资源视为物品，或者说商品。

Manan Ahmed: The colonized, the colony, is made into a thing. Now, what do you do with the thing? You can extract things from it. You can map it, you can census it, you can create it, objectify it. You can do whatever we do with things right? Commodity, build it into a commodity and we can render it in two different ways. 

马南·艾哈迈德：被殖民者和殖民地都被视为物品。殖民者可以对物品做什么呢？他们可以压榨人民，可以绘制土地的地图，可以统计人口，可以创造，可以将人格物化。对于物品，殖民者可以为所欲为。

Zachary Davis: This thingification occurs when the colonizers see the people, cultures, land, and resources they are colonizing only as a commodity. They have a binary view of the situation, or as Fanon describes it, a Manichean view. 

扎卡里·戴维斯：物化是指殖民者将殖民统治之下的人民、文化、土地和资源仅仅视为一种商品。用法农的话说，可以用摩尼教二元论来解释。

Manan Ahmed: The ‘colonialism equals thingification’ part hasn't gone away. I mean we are still very much thinking through the thingification of the world. And here I think that's where both Cesaire and Fanon become so important for us.

马南·艾哈迈德：“殖民主义等于物化”的观点在当下仍然适用。我们仍在思考世界的物化，这也就是为什么我认为塞泽尔和法农对我们无比重要。

Zachary Davis: The thingification makes me think about how the will of those populations just never factors, never. And it's like a foregone conclusion that it doesn't matter until there’s sort of enough real power that things are transformed into subjects.

扎卡里·戴维斯：我理解的物化，是指被殖民者的意愿根本不重要。除非有足够强大的力量，能将被殖民的物体转变为主体，否则被殖民者无法改变这一定局。

Manan Ahmed: Absolutely. And I think that's really one of the most important part of, I think, decolonial thinking or decolonizing our thought processes, right? How do we actually turn these processes that we imagine are driven by, I don't know, a free market, or some other universally acclaimed good, to actually be impacting the lives of human beings? 

马南·艾哈迈德：无论是自由市场还是其他普遍认为是积极因素驱动的去殖民化进程，这些都对人民生活产生实实在在的影响。这是反殖民思维中最重要的一环。

Zachary Davis: Fanon recognized that decolonization had to be a process, and could not simply be just the end of colonial rule. 

扎卡里·戴维斯：法农认为去殖民化是一个过程，而非简单的结束殖民统治。

Manan Ahmed: I think what Fanon says, he says, “Decolonization is truly the creation of new men, but such a creation cannot be attributed to a supernatural power; the ‘thing’, the ‘thing’ colonized becomes a man, a person, through the very process of liberation.”

马南·艾哈迈德：法农说过“去殖民化其实是创造新的人，但是这种创造力并非源于超国家权力，被殖民的‘物体们‘要通过解放运动成为人”。

Zachary Davis: For Fanon, this liberation happens when the colonized subjects resist colonial ‘thingification’. In The Wretched of the Earth, Fanon has a passage where he describes the freedom that the colonized subject still possesses even when under colonial rule, the freedom of dreams.

扎卡里·戴维斯：法农口中的解放运动，是指被殖民者反抗殖民者的物化。在《全世界受苦的人》中，法农用了一段文字来描述被殖民者在殖民重压下依旧拥有的自由，也就是做梦的自由。

Manan Ahmed: “A world compartmentalised, Manichaean and petrified, a world of statues, the statue of the general who led the conquest, the statue of the engineer who built the bridge, a world cocksure of itself, crushing with its stonyness the backbones of those scarred by the whip. This is the colonial world. The colonial subject is a man penned in. Apartheid is but one method of compartmentalizing the colonial world. The first thing the colonial subject learns is to remain in its place and not overstep its limits. Hence the dreams of the colonial subject are muscular dreams. Dreams of action, dreams of aggressive vitality. I dream I am jumping, swimming, running and climbing. I dream I burst out laughing. I am leaping across the river, chased by a pack of cars that never catches up with me. ”During colonization, the colonized subject frees himself night after night between 9:00 in the evening and 6:00 in the morning.

马南·艾哈迈德：“这是一个割裂的、二元的和石化的世界；这是一个充满雕像的世界，有带兵出征的将军的雕像，有建造桥梁的工程师的雕像；这是一个盲目自信的世界，用石头砸向那些被鞭笞威胁的脊梁；这是一个殖民世界，殖民的对象是被围困的人民。种族隔离只是割裂殖民世界的一种方法。 被殖民者学会的第一件事就是留在原地，不要越界。所以被殖民者的梦是关于肌肉的想象。想象着行动，想象着活力。我想象着我在跳跃，在游泳，在跑步，在攀登。我梦到我突然大笑起来。我想象着我跃过河流，摆脱身后汽车的追赶。”在殖民时代，被殖民者只能在夜间9点至清晨6点之间，在梦里解放自己。

Manan Ahmed: Right. So you see how he's able to tell us, right, like the colonized subject, who is a thing to the colonizer, is in this Manichaean dialectic that he points out. But that subject is dreaming, that subject is free every night. 

马南·艾哈迈德：法农想告诉我们，以摩尼教辩证法来看，被殖民的对象，殖民者手中的玩物， 每晚做梦的时候还是自由的。

Manan Ahmed: Now, eventually in Fanon’s text, that subject will have to take up the revolutionary arm and fight for that freedom. But in that paragraph, I think what I have always found incredibly important is that, you know, the mind that belongs to the colonized subject that Fanon wants us to remember is there, is dreaming, is dreaming of freedom, is dreaming of movement, of laughing, of being carefree. 

马南·艾哈迈德：法农在书中写道，被殖民者不得不举起双手为自由而战。这段文字中最重要的部分是，法农想让我们记住，被殖民者的思想一直在做梦，他们在期盼自由，期盼改革，期盼可以无忧无虑放声大笑的生活。

Manan Ahmed: And he goes on to kind of talk about the dance, both the ritualistic dance and the dance of the ritual. And he talks about storytelling, stories like the zombies or stories like other mythic creations, how all of these are incredibly important, because what they do is they resist that thingification. And from that place, that resistance takes shape, the resistance against the colonization.

马南·艾哈迈德：他接着谈到了仪式性舞蹈，谈到了讲故事，关于僵尸和神话的故事。法农认为这些都无比重要，因为它们的目的就是抵制物化。 接着，他开始谈论对殖民主义的反抗。

Zachary Davis: How does he want to liberate the colonized mind to create a new world fit for its inhabitants? 

扎卡里·戴维斯：法农想如何解放被殖民者的思想，开创新世界呢？

Manan Ahmed: I mean, so one of the things that I think is incredibly important that both Fanon but also Gandhi and others have pointed out is the role of those who are among the colonized in order to buttress and support colonization. Right. So black skin, white masks in that sense, is the national bourgeoisie or the elite that step in as mediators or step in as translators or step in as kind of people who will shepherd you from colonization to decolonization, you know, the people who are trusted by the colonizers to kind of do the job of civilization. 

马南·艾哈迈德：法农、甘地等思想家都曾指出，要关注支持殖民主义的被殖民者所扮演的角色。在法农的《黑皮肤、白面具》中，民族资产阶级和精英阶级扮演了中间人、翻译和去殖民化先锋的角色，即由殖民者最信赖的人群来完成文明开化的工作。

Manan Ahmed:And I think both Fanon and Gandhi and others, other decolonization thinkers are rightfully incredibly skeptical of these people or these kind of mediation roles, precisely because of the colonization that's happening inside the mind, right, where the colonizer is able to convince sometimes a large majority of people that the colonized life is righteous, that we were primitive, or our arts and literature didn't amount to much, or we would never have invented the printing press or the railway, you know, or whatever, whatever kind of idea that was important in that colonization. 

马南·艾哈迈德：法农、甘地和其他去殖民主义思想家都对这些人群，对中间人角色持有怀疑态度，原因是殖民化同样发生在人的心智层面。殖民者会对被殖民者进行洗脑，可能大部分人会认同殖民统治的争议性，认为被殖民的国家是原始落后的，艺术和文化底蕴不值一提，如果没有殖民者的介入，印刷术和铁路永远不会出现等等。

Manan Ahmed:And so any true decolonization would not be the actual liberation of the people. What it would mean is that you would get a white elite, be replaced by, you know, people with black skin and white masks who would continue that colonization and would continue that process. And to be incredibly clear eyed, that's actually what happens in decolonization.

马南·艾哈迈德：所以说，真正的去殖民化并非自由化那么简单，并非找一位戴着白人面具的黑人取代原先的白人精英，继续推进殖民化进程。这是去殖民化的现状。

Manan Ahmed:And that is, there are these military strongmen, or there are political dynasties that come into power in the majority of post-colonial states, who are able to kind of transition and they remain in power. 

马南·艾哈迈德：在很多后殖民时代的国家，权力依旧掌握在军队要员或政客手中。

Zachary Davis: From Fanon’s perspective, this is not decolonization. 

扎卡里·戴维斯：法农并不认为这是去殖民化。

Manan Ahmed:  And so there, the question of the mind becomes important. Right. Because what are these elites saying? These elites are saying back to the people that they are now leading, that you know, English education or US geopolitics or world bank's criteria for nationalization versus free market, on all of these bits, whether it's coming from Harvard School of Economics or University of Chicago, Milton Friedman, etc., all of these bits are smarter than you are. 

马南·艾哈迈德：思想的去殖民化至关重要。精英阶层一直灌输怎样的理念呢？他们不停地向民众宣传，英语教育，美国地缘政治，世界银行的国有化与自由市场评判标准等等。这些概念可能来自哈佛经济学院，或者芝加哥大学、或者米尔顿·弗里德曼等，这些机构或人总是比被殖民者聪明。

Manan Ahmed: So the counter to this is for Fanon at least, this colonization of the mind, is that this colonization, just as it's a dichotomy outside, right, it creates this divide between the Casbah, the inhabitation of the colonized and the inhabitation of the European. In the mind of the colonized, there is a similar fracture of consciousness and that fracture has to be healed and that has to come back together. 

马南·艾哈迈德：法农与这些精英阶层的想法大相径庭。他认为对思想的殖民造成了社会的分裂，将社会切分为殖民者和被殖民者的区域。在被殖民者的思想中，都有一种类似的民族自觉的裂缝，这种裂缝需要被弥补上。

Manan Ahmed: And resistance, violence in that sense, which is not again, we haven't said this before, but I want to say that violence is not the choice of the colonized.  Violence is the choice of the colonizer. And the colonized has to basically respond to it. And it's through this violence that this dialectic can be resolved because it creates the unity that he says is needed for decolonization.

马南·艾哈迈德：暴力并非被殖民者的选择，是殖民者选择了暴力，被殖民者只能以暴力回应暴力。而暴力正好也可以提供去殖民化进程中必须的凝聚力。

Zachary Davis: A large part of colonialism involves the colonizer imposing their culture on the colonized. For Fanon, decolonization wasn’t about continuing the colonial culture but building a new world.

扎卡里·戴维斯：殖民者向被殖民者的文化输出是殖民主义的重要部分。法农认为，去殖民化并非延续殖民时期的文化而是要建立一个全新的世界。

Manan Ahmed: One of the things that he says at the end of the book, which is something that I think Gandhi says very explicitly in Hind Swaraj as well, which is, you know, “We don't want Africa to become a new Europe. We don't want India to become a new England. Right. Decolonization is not where we just become those who colonized us.” And I think that is an incredibly important radical futurity, right. It’s different. It's not about simply becoming our own colonizers in that sense. Right. 

马南·艾哈迈德：甘地在《印度自治》中曾写道“我们不想见到非洲成为新的欧洲。我们不想见到印度成为新的英国。去殖民化并不是指我们成为殖民者”。法农也在《全世界受苦的人》这本书最后提到类似观点。我认为这个观点对未来很有启发意义，它和一般的观点不同，反殖民并不是成为殖民者那么简单。

Manan Ahmed:And so this idea that he ends with, which is, you know, that he we have to take humanity forward to create a new new world, I think is something that's incredibly important that I always think, especially with figures like I mentioned, Gandhi, who are very clear that fighting colonialism and building a new world order are kind of part of the same continuum, but have different means. We fight colonialism in order to reject the colonizer, but we build a new world not to become versions of the colonizer.

马南·艾哈迈德：法农强调，去殖民化是要带领人类前进，创造新世界。甘地也有类似的观点，反对殖民主义和建立新世界是相通的，方法略有不同。我们与殖民主义斗争是为了反抗殖民者，但我们建立一个新世界不是为了成为另一种殖民者。

Zachary Davis: What was the general reception to the book? And, you know, as yourself a scholar of decolonization, how do you place this among other texts, among other movements? What's it standing today?

扎卡里·戴维斯：这本书的反响如何？像您这样的去殖民化学者，会如何比较这本书和其他类似题材的书籍和社会运动？这本书对今天有怎样的参考价值？

Manan Ahmed: This is a text that I think is published almost immediately in a translation in ‘62. Sartre's forward to it makes it available globally, I think immediately. And it's you know, it's read certainly in the late ‘60s, by the late ‘60s in most sites around the world, especially sites where there is a struggle for freedom and struggle for emancipation that's ongoing. 

马南·艾哈迈德：这本书出版后不久，翻译版就于1962年面世了。萨特的序言也帮助将这本著作推向全球。在20世纪60年代后期，全世界很多地区都在阅读这本书，尤其是那些在进行独立解放运动的地区。

Zachary Davis: In 1962, one year after Fanon’s death, Algeria gained its independence from France. Many Algerians who fought for independence believed The Wretched of the Earth was directed towards them.  

扎卡里·戴维斯：1962年，法农离世后一年，阿尔及利亚从法国手中夺回了独立。很多阿尔及利亚人都认为是《全世界受苦的人》这本书引领他们取得独立。

Manan Ahmed: It's incredibly important for Algeria itself. Fanon becomes an important figure in how Algeria sees itself afterwards, after independence. I think one of the ways in which I would suggest it has an impact that's maybe most legible, is in the kind of thought of black and queer feminists, especially the abolition centered thinkers Angela Davis, Sylvia Winter. In the ‘80s, especially how to imagine a global solidarity movement. And in that, Fanon is incredibly important precisely because he links himself to the struggles against the British Empire and, you know, is someone who's read within those various domains. And I think the ideas of connecting race to capital are something that’s taken up in the ‘80s and ‘90s by a number of theorists.

马南·艾哈迈德：法农对独立后的阿尔及利亚民族自觉有重要的影响。而最突出的一点是，对黑人和酷儿女权主义者思想的影响，比如重点关注废奴的思想家安吉拉·戴维斯和西尔维娅·温特。还有20世纪80年代对全球团结运动的设想。法农的思想与大英帝国利益相冲突，但他的作品在英国还是被广泛地阅读，这一点也很有意义。到了80年代和90年代，还有很多理论家受法农影响，开始将种族与资本联系起来。

Manan Ahmed: And I think when young people and people who are in capacity of teachers as I am, when in 2014 and 2015 when we look back, I think it's that moment of the ‘60’s, especially folks like Fanon, who was obviously early ‘60s, ‘61, but through, you know, Malcolm X, Martin Luther King Jr. and then going on to Angela Davis and you know, Amiri Baraka and you know, Cornel West now, that is the kind of intellectual legacy on which a global solidarity, whether it's in terms of Rhodes Must Fall or Black Lives Matter in the sense of its constellation of how to enunciate the need against statues. The statue is an important monument, and is an important part of that. 

马南·艾哈迈德：当年轻人和像我一样的青年教师，在2014年、2015年这个节点回望历史时，就会看到从20世纪60年代开始，法农、马尔科姆·艾克斯、和马丁·路德·金，到之后的安吉拉·戴维斯、阿米尔·巴拉卡和康奈尔·韦斯特，他们都是人类思想史上的瑰宝。无论是“罗德像必须倒下”学生抗议运动，还是“黑人的命也是命”社会运动，是先辈们的思想将大家凝聚起来，奋力推倒雕像。 这些雕像是纪念碑，也是旧制的象征。

Manan Ahmed: It's not like Fanon went away. But we're seeing Fanon enter curriculum and public discourse in an incredibly important way. And not alone. Along with the people who have written, you know, alongside him and then obviously those who have written after him. 

马南·艾哈迈德：法农并没有离开我们，他还会出现在课本和公共讨论中。不单单是他一个人，还有很多与他同期和受他思想启发的后辈思想家。

Manan Ahmed: And I think that collective, however, Fanon, unlike other theorists of the European Enlightenment, where each theorist kind of always had the capacity to be put in a conversation with others, you can read Kant, but can you really read Kant without Hume? You can read Hume, but can you really read Hume without Rousseau? And so you take that world as a given and then against that commentary, you would always only be able to say, “Well, there is one Gandhi.” And, “Well, there is just one Fanon.” And I think that's what's changed now. That's what I feel is the radical newness in the moment today .

马南·艾哈迈德：欧洲启蒙时期的思想家，观点总是互相联系的。试想一下，如果不阅读休谟，你能够理解康德吗？如果没有卢梭，你能够理解休谟吗？与启蒙时期的思想家们不同，我们可以说，甘地只有一个，法农也只有一个。这就是发生的变化，是完完全全的新事物。

Zachary Davis: Frantz Fanon has undoubtedly left a huge impact on the world. He looked at colonization and decolonization through a psychiatric lens, and helped the world recognize the mental components in both. For Fanon, true decolonization requires shedding the old, colonial mindset, and building a new world. The Wretched of the Earth has become a foundational text in the canon of postcolonial discussions.   

扎卡里·戴维斯：弗朗茨·法农无疑对世界产生了深远的影响。他从精神病学的视角审视殖民化和去殖民化议题，并阐述了过程中的精神因素。法农认为，真正的去殖民化是摆脱旧的殖民思维，并建立一个新世界。《全世界受苦的人》已成为后殖民主义讨论的经典文本。

Manan Ahmed: Its uniqueness was to demonstrate that the task of resistance against colonialism and the work of theorizing decolonial thought, were related and connected, that one can do both. One can be a scholar, be a theoretician, and be engaged in practice. And I think that linkage, which is in the figure of Fanon, is just such an incredibly important pivot in the history of letters, as it were, where we tended to have a world in which, you know, you imagine Kant has never left Konigsburg and he has come up with a universal theory of morals and universal critique of reason. 

马南·艾哈迈德：这本书的特殊之处在于，它指出对殖民主义的反抗，和去殖民思想的理论化是相辅相成的。一个人可以是学者，可以是理论学家，也可以加入反抗的队列。法农提出的这种连接是哲学史上非常重要的一个节点。康德从未离开过柯尼斯堡，但提出了普世的道德观的和普世的理性批判论。

Manan Ahmed: And sure, we can just go with that. But why not? Hegel has never traveled anything, but he's given us a universal theory of history and a universal theory of aesthetic. Sure, we can just go with that. Why not, etc. I think that's a model that European enlightenment was really particularly invested in, because guess what traveling means? The colony. You know what I’m saying? So there's a simulacra, there's an illusion that is useful. And I think figures like Fanon put that illusion to rest and they show us what a radical practice looks like. 

马南·艾哈迈德：黑格尔也没有四处游学，仍然提出了普世的历史理论和审美理论。思想家并不必然需要周游世界，为什么一定要呢？我认为这是欧洲启蒙运动特别推崇的一种模式，想一下旅行意味着什么？ 殖民地。旅行有助于思想家只是一种错觉。 以法农为代表的思想家打破了这种幻想，他们向我们展示了什么是比较完整的做法。

Zachary Davis: Writ Large is a production of Ximalaya. Writ Large is produced by Jack Pombriant, and me, Zachary Davis. Script editing is by Galen Beebe. We get help from Feiran Du, Ariel Liu, and Monica Zhang. Our theme song is by Ian Coss. Don’t miss an episode. Subscribe today in the Ximalaya app. Thanks for listening. See you next time.

扎卡里·戴维斯：本节目由喜马拉雅独家制作播出。感谢您的收听，我们下期再见！