【英文原声版79】George Paul Meiu: Three Essays on the Theory of Sexuality

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Zachary Davis: Sigmund Freud didn’t really think “you” existed.

扎卡里·戴维斯：西格蒙德·弗洛伊德并不认为“你”真的存在。

George Paul Meiu: Freud is probably best known as the founder of psychoanalysis, which, unlike psychology or clinical psychology, really questions the subject, really questions this idea that there is an immutable subject, that you are right there where you sit, that there is a certain kind of immutable identity or interiority to you. It breaks the subject apart and shows them how desire or aspiration, et cetera, are part of a quest. All we are is a quest for that kind of unity. 

乔治·保罗·梅欧：弗洛伊德因创立精神分析学而广为人知。它与心理学或临床心理学不同，这套理论着重于质问主观意识，即我们是否真的存在于这里，且具有一个固定的内在身份。它剖析我们的主观意识，向我们展示欲望和理想等等都属于同一种追求。我们自身不过就是对于某一个完整的东西的追求而已。

George Paul Meiu: My name is George Paul Meiu and I'm associate professor of anthropology and African American studies at Harvard University.

乔治·保罗·梅欧：我是乔治·保罗·梅欧，现任哈佛大学副教授，主攻人类学与非裔美国人研究。

Zachary Davis: One of Freud’s main interests was sex. Specifically, how human sexuality develops. The common sense view before Freud was that sexuality was a matter of nature, that it was determined on a biological level. But in his 1905 text Three Essays on the Theory of Sexuality, Freud proposed that when it comes to our sexual desires, nurture matters too.

扎卡里·戴维斯：弗洛伊德的其中一个研究重点就是性，特别是研究人的性取向是如何发展出来的。在弗洛伊德之前，人们普遍认为性取向只受自然因素影响，是完全在生理层面上决定的。但在1905年的《性学三论》中，弗洛依德主张我们的性取向也会受后天因素影响。

George Paul Meiu: One thing that strikes me as so resonant in Freud's three essays is this persistent questioning of the sexual. Is there something that that can be called sexual or is there some sort of an essence, whether in this subject, in our relations, in our desires that is distinctly sexual, or is the sexual but a label for something that is much more amorphous, much more ambivalent, not readily able to pin down something that is not readily identifiable, if you will? 

乔治·保罗·梅欧：弗洛伊德的《性学三论》里最引起我共鸣的一点是他对性的持续追问。即在我们的主观意识里，在我们的人际关系中，在我们的欲望里是否真的有什么本质上可以被明确认为是性或者与性相关的东西，还是说它更多只是一个更模糊笼统的东西的标签，没法让我们清晰地定义和分辨出来？

Zachary Davis: Freud looked at childhood to understand how sexuality develops. 

扎卡里·戴维斯：为了了解人如何发展出性取向，弗洛伊德把关注点投向了人们的童年。

George Paul Meiu: Freud said that what we would discover if we pay careful attention at how infant sexuality, continuous or central to the production of who we are as sexual subjects in adult life, is that instinct or what we call the drive is always already composite. That is, there is no such thing as one instinct, i.e., you know, so-and-so is a heterosexual or homosexual, so-and-so is a bisexual. There's always a certain kind of multiplicity to it, that composite instinct never goes away. 

乔治·保罗·梅欧：弗洛伊德说如果我们对婴儿的性取向加以留意的话，就会发现这种性取向是一种本能，或者我们也可以把它称呼为一种冲动。这种本能在塑造我们性别意识和成年人格起到重要作用的同时，本身就受到很多复杂因素的影响。这也意味着，人类并不会只有一种本能，换句话说，我们不能简单说一个人是同性恋者，或者这个人是异性恋，甚至也不能就说某人是双性恋者。这种本能永远是多重化，复合化的。

Zachary Davis: Welcome to Writ Large, a podcast about how books change the world. I’m Zachary Davis. In each episode, I talk with one of the world’s leading scholars about one book that changed the course of history. For this episode, I sat down with Professor George Paul Meiu  to discuss Sigmund Freud’s Three Essays on the Theory of Sexuality.

扎卡里·戴维斯：欢迎收听：改变你和世界的100本书，在这里我们为大家讲述改变世界的书籍。我是扎卡里·戴维斯。每一集，我都会和一位世界顶尖学者讨论一本影响历史进程的书。在本集，我和乔治·保罗·梅欧教授一起讨论西格蒙德·弗洛依德的《性学三论》。

George Paul Meiu: Now, he was born in 1856 in Freiburg, which was then part of the Austrian empire.

乔治·保罗·梅欧：弗洛依德于1856年出生于佛莱堡，那儿在当时还是奥地利帝国的领土。

Zachary Davis: When Freud was young, his family moved to Vienna.

扎卡里·戴维斯：在他年轻时，弗洛依德一家人搬去了维也纳。

George Paul Meiu: He studied medicine and neurology at the University of Vienna.

乔治·保罗·梅欧：他在维也纳大学进修了医学和神经学。

Zachary Davis: Freud lived in Vienna for most of his adult life. In 1886 he established his clinical practice, where he pioneered a new theory and therapy he called psychoanalysis. The goal of psychoanalysis is to treat mental health disorders by looking at the interaction of the conscious and unconscious mind.    

扎卡里·戴维斯：之后，弗洛伊德一生中的大部分时间都住在维也纳。在1886年，他建立了一套自己的临床实践，开创了被他称之为精神分析的理论和疗法。精神分析的目的是通过研究意识和无意识之间的关系从而治疗心理健康障碍。

Zachary Davis: Through his clinical practice, Freud established theories on how the human psyche develops and behaves. He wrote many books and essays where he expanded on these theories. Some of his most famous works include The Interpretation of Dreams, The Psychology of Everyday Life, Civilization and Its Discontents, which we covered in another episode, and Three Essays on the Theory of Sexuality.

扎卡里·戴维斯：在他的临床实践中，弗洛依德创建了不少分析人的心智是如何发展并表现出来的理论。对此他写了很多书和论文来进一步讨论这些理论。其中最有名的著作包括《梦的解析》《日常生活的精神病学》，我们之前一集里已经讲过的《文明及其不满》，还有我们今天要讨论的《性学三论》。

George Paul Meiu: And his work covered a very wide range of topics, probably the best known for among these topics are his theorization of the unconscious, repression, and sexuality, especially the notion of the libido that he developed in the three essays.

乔治·保罗·梅欧：同时他的作品涉及的主题也很广泛，其中最有名的可能要属关于无意识，压抑和性取向方面的理论，特别是他在《性学三论》里提出的力比多这一概念。

Zachary Davis: How did people think about sex before Freud's more, I don't know. Is it fair to call it a medical kind of examination? 

扎卡里·戴维斯：在弗洛伊德之前，人们看待性的方法是怎样的？如果说弗洛伊德对于性的看法更类似于医学上的体检，这样说对吗？

George Paul Meiu: I do think that the patriarchal family, heterosexual family does become an important normative ideal in this context. At the same time if one were to tap into the archives of city life, let's say, in Vienna or Berlin or London at that time, I'm sure one finds a very rich kind of a set of sexual landscapes, if you wish, with, certain areas in which prostitution takes place, certain brothels in which, you know, same sex relations are possible, in which various forms of transgender subjectivity become possible, even if not necessarily legitimate, under a certain kind of normative order. 

乔治·保罗·梅欧：我认为父权制家庭，异性恋家庭在这种情境下也提供了一个很重要的理想化模范作用。与此同时要是有人去查阅当时关于城市里日常生活的档案的话，比方说，那时的维也纳，柏林，或者是伦敦，我相信他一定会找到很多关于性方面的记述，像是类似于卖淫活动一般在城市的哪些地方进行，哪些妓院里可以进行同性关系，哪些地方能容许跨性别的存在，哪怕这些行为在当时往往被认为是伤风败俗。

Zachary Davis: Doctors and researchers were curious as to how these “non-normative” sexualities and genders developed. As they began to study sexuality and gender, sexology and the sexual sciences took root. 

扎卡里·戴维斯：当时的医生和学者们都很好奇这些“反常”的性别和性取向都是怎么产生的。在他们开始研究性别和性取向的同时，也为性学和各种对性的科学研究扎下了根基。

George Paul Meiu: You see the sexual science that became so prominent in the second half of the 19th century itself try to make sense of this growing multiplicity, complex complexity, to categorize it to get to its interiority. Just what's the seed of truth beyond behind a prostitute, behind a homosexual, you know, how can we pin that down?

乔治·保罗·梅欧：你看吧，在19世纪下半叶开始兴起的对性的科学研究本身就是想搞清楚这种日益兴起的复杂现象，去把它分类，去了解它的内在原因。他们想知道究竟为什么一个人会成为一个娼妓，或成为一个同性恋者？这背后到底存在着怎样的更深层次的原因？我们又要如何去解释它呢？

Zachary Davis: Many of these early sexologists believed there was some biological element that predisposed a person to become homosexual or transgender or a prostitute. Researchers did things like measuring subjects’ skulls to try and find evidence of this biological link. 

扎卡里·戴维斯：很多这些早期的性学家都相信是一些生理因素决定了一个人会成为同性恋者，变性人或者是娼妓。当时的研究者还通过测量研究对象的头颅等方法，来试图证明这一点。

Zachary Davis: This was the time of Darwin after all. In 1859, just a few years after Freud was born, Charles Darwin published The Origin of Species which revolutionized many scientific fields which turned anew to biology to prove various hypotheses. But Freud questioned this growing embrace of biological reductionism.

扎卡里·戴维斯：当时毕竟是达尔文学说大行其道的时代。在1859年，弗洛伊德出生几年后，查尔斯·达尔文就发表了《物种起源》，这在当时很多科学领域都引发了革命性的影响，开始重新用生物学来证明很多假设。但弗洛伊德当时就质疑了这种日渐兴起的生物简化论。

George Paul Meiu: He really questions, for example, the kind of biological origin of sexual instinct is it all hereditary or is it all innate or are we dealing with something else? Are we dealing perhaps with the early impressions of our childhood that are probably much more important than what's passed down to us hereditarily? 

乔治·保罗·梅欧：他质疑了很多，比方说，那种性本能生理上的起源，它到底是受遗传作用，是完全天生固有的，还是有什么其它的因素在里面？会不会我们一些早期童年印象要比遗传因素起到更重要的作用？

Zachary Davis: Instead of looking for biological and hereditary traits that determine sexuality, Freud looked at how the development of the human psyche in childhood impacts sexuality. 

扎卡里·戴维斯：相较于关注决定性取向的生物和遗传因素，弗洛依德更多着眼于人类在童年时心智的发展如何影响一个人的性取向。

Zachary Davis: He shared his theories in Three Essays on the Theory of Sexuality, originally published in 1905 and again in 1915.

扎卡里·戴维斯：他在《性学三论》中分享了他的理论，这本书在1905年首次出版，并在1915年再版。

Zachary Davis: Tell us about the essays themselves, and you know what it’s saying, what it's arguing and how it makes those arguments.

扎卡里·戴维斯：跟我们讲讲这三论吧，毕竟您很懂里面讲了什么，它有哪些论点以及他是如何得出这些论点的。

George Paul Meiu: Indeed there are three, three essays. One, the first is dealing with what Freud calls a sexual aberration, the second with infantile sexuality and the third with the kind of transformations of sexuality that come with puberty. 

乔治·保罗·梅欧：确实是有三论，三篇论文。首先，第一篇讲的是弗洛伊德称为性反常的现象，第二篇是关于婴儿的性取向，而第三篇则是关于性取向在青春期经历的转变。

George Paul Meiu: Freud spends much time trying to debunk ideas about sexual pathology of degeneracy and innateness of particular kinds of tendencies, orientations and desires that were very common at that time. 

乔治·保罗·梅欧：弗洛依德花了大篇幅驳斥那些在当时很流行的观点，比如认为某些性倾向、取向和欲望是一种性方面的疾病，或者是一种堕落。

George Paul Meiu: A key intervention happens already in the first pages of the book, where he distinguishes, for example, between sexual instinct and the sexual object. Now, instinct is what we would call now probably a drive actually translated from the German sexualtrieb. “Trieb” comes from the verb describing which is driving. You know, it's a drive. It was translated into English, though, as sexual instinct. And the other, the sexual object is, Freud says, the person from whom sexual attraction proceeds, in other words, who you're interested in. And this distinction, I think, is central for it dissociates who one is attracted to from the drive itself. Freud says the instinct, the drive actually has nothing to do with the object. The object comes later. 

乔治·保罗·梅欧：其中很重要的一个反驳点在书的前几页就提出来了，比方说吧，在这里他把性本能和性对象做了一个区分。在这里呢，本能指的更多的是一种冲动，它其实是从德语里的“性欲”翻译过来的。这个词里包含一个表示驱动的动词，表示欲望，冲动。你懂吧，它是一种驱动力。但它在翻译成英文以后就变成了性本能。而另一个关键，性对象，弗洛伊德说它指的就是一个人对另一个人产生了性吸引力，换句话说，性对象也就是把你吸引住的这个人。我觉得这个区分很重要，因为它把吸引我们的这个人和性冲动本身给分开了。弗洛伊德说这个性本能，这种冲动它和性对象一点联系也没有。这个性对像是次要的。

Zachary Davis: In other words, Freud separates the desire itself from what it is attracted to. He calls the desire the sexual drive, or libido. We all have that sexual drive, Freud says, but the way it develops depends on a person’s childhood development.  

扎卡里·戴维斯：换句话说，弗洛依德把欲望本身和吸引我们的这个东西给分开了。他把欲望称为性冲动，也叫力比多。弗洛依德说我们都有这种性冲动，但它具体怎样发展出来取决于这个人的童年成长经历。

George Paul Meiu: So this is already a way to, I would say, the way I read it, de-pathologize, to pull apart this idea that there are such things as immutable types.

乔治·保罗·梅欧：所以他这种观点本身就是一种，怎么说呢，我把它理解成是一种去病态化，他试图把这些固定的类别分拆开来。

Zachary Davis: By linking sexuality to childhood development, Freud shows that sexual drive is flexible. It’s not entirely biological, and it’s not entirely social. It’s in-between. 

扎卡里·戴维斯：通过把性取向和童年成长经历联系起来，弗洛依德展示了性冲动其实是很灵活的一个东西。它不完全是生理上的，也不完全是社会性的。它处于二者之间。

George Paul Meiu: But this kind of like undecidability this kind of in between us, I think is a really important, important thing. At the same time that he's already trying to remove it at least a little bit from biology compared to the scholars who have written about it previously. 

乔治·保罗·梅欧：但我们身上的这种不确定性，这种介于两者之间的东西，我觉得这非常非常重要。而且，比对他和之前其他学者的著作，就会发现他已经在试图淡化它的生物学色彩了。

George Paul Meiu: And one way in which he did that was and is I think is perhaps another major intervention of the book is to pay close attention to infant sexuality. And what he does do here is to question the seeming separation between infancy and then puberty in sexual life. He says that, um, for the most part, infancy is not recognized as was not recognized at that point as part of the sexual development, and its puberty, where the advent of our sexual being is whatever that thing is. Well, he says no, actually, there are lots of continuities, and careful attention to what's happening in infancy is quite central here.

乔治·保罗·梅欧：而他这样做的其中一个方法，而且我觉得也是他这本书里另一个重要的反驳点，就是着重于关注婴儿的性取向。而他在这里做的就是质问我们一生的性取向是否在婴儿期和青春期之间真的有一个分隔。他就说，在很长一段时间里，婴儿期没有被看成是性成长的一部分，直到青春期我们才发展出自己的性取向。但弗洛依德他就说不，其实呢，婴儿期的性取向与以后一个人的发展有许多的连续性，所以对婴儿阶段多加关注就很重要。

Zachary Davis: Freud argues that as we grow up, we pass through five stages of development. In each stage, our innate sexual drive, our libido, focuses on a different erogenous zone. During these developmental stages, the libido is not yet experienced as adult sexual desire. It’s not driven by the instinctual desire to reproduce. It’s more like an energy that focuses on the development of certain parts of one’s body and mind. 

扎卡里·戴维斯：弗洛依德认为随着我们成长会经历五个发展阶段。在每个阶段，我们的内在性冲动，我们的力比多，都集中在一个不同的性敏感带。在这些发展阶段中，我们的力比多还不像成年的性欲那样成熟。它还不是由我们的繁殖本能驱动的。它更像是一种精力，集中在我们身体和心智某些部分的成长。

Zachary Davis: According to Freud’s theory, if we pass through each stage of development without any trauma, we will grow up to be balanced, mentally healthy individuals. If a child has a traumatic experience during one of these stages, it can impact their psychological development and can be expressed later in life through various personality traits, neuroses, dependencies, depression, and addictions.

扎卡里·戴维斯：根据弗洛依德的理论，如果我们在经历每一阶段的过程中没有受到任何创伤的话，我们就会成长为一个发展均衡、精神健康的个体。如果儿童在其中某一个阶段有过创伤性的经历的话，就会对他的心智发展产生影响，并在成年后通过人格的各种特征表现出来：比如像神经症，依存症，忧郁症或成瘾症等等。

George Paul Meiu: One starts with the oral stage during which, you know, the breast of the mother, which was used for a certain kind of almost holistic fulfilment at the moment of birth, is replaced by the sucking of the thumb as a kind of a repetitive gesture, which now is separated from the pleasure of nourishment and is associated with the pleasure of what might now loosely be called the sexual. 

乔治·保罗·梅欧：一个人从口欲期开始，在这个阶段，你要知道，母亲的乳房作为一个在出生后几乎能实现所有满足感的东西，在这时被替换成了吮吸手指这一重复性的动作，此时这一动作已经不再代表摄取营养的快感，而是和性快感产生了一点点联系。

Zachary Davis: During the oral stage, from birth to around age 1, we discover the world through our oral senses. It begins with breastfeeding and thumb sucking. When a child is weaned from breastfeeding, they move past the oral phase. However, according to Freud, if the child was weaned too soon or if there was trauma or neglect during this transition, this can result in an oral fixation, such as extended thumb sucking, chewing gum, or even smoking.

扎卡里·戴维斯：在从出生到一岁之间的口欲期，我们通过口腔来感知和探索世界。它从哺乳和吮吸手指开始。当孩子断奶之后，口欲期就结束了。然而，弗洛依德认为，如果断奶结束的过早，或者孩童在这一过渡期遭受了创伤或者疏于照管，就会导致对口欲的迷恋，像是吮吸手指的习惯被保留下来，还有嚼口香糖，甚至是吸烟。

Zachary Davis: After the oral phase we pass through the anal phase. During this stage we gain some control over our bowels and bladders. This is when children stop using diapers and learn to use a toilet. And as with the oral stage, if a child experiences trauma during this stage, it can impact a person’s personality and behaviors later in life.

扎卡里·戴维斯：在经过了口欲期之后就到了肛欲期。在这一阶段我们开始对肠和膀胱有了一定的控制。在这时孩子会停止使用尿布并开始学习使用厕所。就和口欲期一样，如果一个儿童在这一阶段受到了创伤，就会对其日后的性格和行为举止产生影响。

Zachary Davis: After the anal stage comes the phallic stage. During this stage, Freud argues that children become aware of differences between the sexes, and they develop romantic attachments to their parents. Boys become attached to their mothers and girls to their fathers. This is one of Freud’s most famous ideas: the Oedipal complex. Freud got the term from Sophocles’ play Oedipus Rex in which the main character Oedipus unintentionally kills his father and marries his mother. 

扎卡里·戴维斯：在肛欲期之后就到了性蕾期。在这一阶段，弗洛依德认为孩子会开始注意到不同性别间的差异，并开始对他们的父母产生浪漫性的依恋。男孩会对母亲产生依恋，而女孩则会对她们的父亲产生依恋。这也是弗洛依德最著名的一个概念之一，即俄狄浦斯恋母情结。这一名称取自索福克勒斯的戏剧《俄狄浦斯王》，在剧中主角俄狄浦斯无意间弑杀了他的父亲并娶了他的母亲。

Zachary Davis: After the phallic stage comes the latency stage. During this stage, children typically learn that their sexual desires towards their parents can’t be realized, and these desires go away. Instead of wanting to be with their parents, they want to be their parents. Children begin to identify with the parent of the same sex and focus their energy on developing a sense of self.  

扎卡里·戴维斯：在性蕾期之后就到了潜伏期。在这一阶段，孩童通常会意识到他们对父母的性欲望是无法实现的，所以必须放下这些欲望。与其跟他们的父母长久在一起，他们更想成为他们的父母。孩子们开始把自己与和他们同性的家长联系起来，并将精力集中在发展自我认知。

Zachary Davis: The final stage is puberty, or the genital stage. In this stage the sexual drive is focused outside the family and towards viable sexual partners. This stage begins at puberty and ends at death. 

扎卡里·戴维斯：最后一阶段就到了青春期，或生殖期。在这一阶段，性冲动会投射到家庭之外，聚焦到可能的性伴侣。这一阶段始于青春期，终于死亡。

George Paul Meiu: What's so interesting about infant sexuality is that it doesn't presuppose yet a zone of the body, which in puberty with a certain kind of normative incitement to a reproductive sexuality, sexuality becomes genitality. And what is not revolving around in their genital pleasure is perverse. But Freud tells us we are all perverts to a certain extent because childhood is about a certain engagement of erotic pleasure through the whole body. The rocking of the child, right. To put the child to sleep is itself erotic. There is no not yet a certain kind of like distinctly sexual, at least not normatively so, kind of pleasure. 

乔治·保罗·梅欧：关于婴儿性取向很有趣的一点是小婴儿不会单单预设身体哪个部位才会跟性有关，一到青春期时按常理就会变成一种以生育为本的性取向，这就把性取向等同为生育能力。而生育无关的性快感就是反常的。相反弗洛依德告诉我们任何人都多多少少有一点反常，因为我们儿时都会用全身各个部位来获得性快感。比如说摇一摇孩子，哄他们睡觉也可以是非常色情的。因为在那个时候并没有什么快感是明确属于性的，至少名义上我们不能做这样的区分。

George Paul Meiu: The point is to acknowledge these multiple polymorphous erotogenic zones that the body is itself, the palms, the sights, the kind of like lips themselves are sources of erotic pleasure. And it's not that we abandon them, he says. This is the third essay in the book. It's not that we abandon them. Foreplay is very much still about the engagement of these all these multiple erotogenic zones.

乔治·保罗·梅欧：重点是要认识到这些多种多样的性敏感部位，像是手掌，目光，嘴唇这些东西本身也可以是性快感的来源。而且他认为我们并没有在长大的过程中摆脱了这些快感。这就到了他书的第三论。我们并没有丢失了这种快感。比如说像前戏这样很大程度上就是要调动起所有这些性敏感的部位。

George Paul Meiu: But to those who linger, he says, and I love this word linger. It's a temporal deferment. Rather than go where you must and engage in the proper kind of thing, you linger and drive satisfaction from these other erotogenic zones typically associated with infancy, become, according to the normative kind of script, pervert's, or engaged in perversions. 

乔治·保罗·梅欧：但对于那些依然逗留在某个阶段的人，他说——我觉得逗留这个词用得很妙——它属于一种暂时的延迟。相比于正常的发展，这些人会逗留在和婴儿期相关的性敏感部位，从这些部位得到满足感。根据常规来看，这就很反常，感觉他们就是在进行反常的行为。

Zachary Davis: In other words, people who don’t fully pass through each stage, the people who linger in the oral, anal, or phallic stage, develop perversions. But for Freud, these perversions are not abnormal. They’re actually part of the normative experience. And by making that argument, Freud calls into question the entire distinction between the normal and the perverse.  

扎卡里·戴维斯：换句话说，那些没有完全结束之前某个阶段的人，那些徘徊在口欲期，肛欲期，或者性蕾期的人，就发展出了反常的癖好。但在弗洛伊德来看，这些反常癖好并没有哪里不对。它们其实也是正常体验里的一部分。根据这一论点，弗洛伊德质疑正常和异常之间是否真的存在明确区别。

George Paul Meiu: It's easy to remark how he does that, he says whenever he talks about the normal, especially in the first part of the book, he says what is seemed to be the normal or what appears to be the normal and or using perversion in quotation marks. So here you have it again. And I think this is very much a reaction against the mentality of the time that there is something called normal that has nothing to do with this other thing called perversion. Well, by blurring the boundaries between infant sexuality and adult sexuality, between perversion and normality, you should really come to show the complexities and the unruliness of desire itself.

乔治·保罗·梅欧：他这点很容易就能注意到，就是他在讨论什么是正常的时候，特别是在书的第一部分里，他总是用“什么事物看似正常”或者“什么东西表面上正常”，而且他用“反常行为”这个词的时候会加引号。你现在就明白了吧。而且我认为这显然是他特别针对当时那种普遍认为有正常和反常两种水火不容的状态，作出的一种回应。通过模糊婴儿性取向和成人性取向之间的边界，通过模糊反常举动与正常行为之间的边界，你应该就很能意识到欲望本身是一种多么复杂又难以掌控的东西。

Zachary Davis: Let's talk now about what happened when this was published. 

扎卡里·戴维斯：我们来聊一聊这本书出版后产生的影响吧。

George Paul Meiu: For one thing, it informed generations to come of psychoanalysis. And I would just mention two people here, Jacques Lacan, whose work went back to Freud and went back very centrally to Freud's work on sexuality to try to understand this question with which we started, what is sexuality, and is there a set of distinct processes that we can call sexual? And Lacan reaches a very different kind of conclusion than Freud. For Lacan, the sexual ends up being a signifier. It is an organizing signifier, a signifier that creates a certain kind of order in our desires, orientations, this kind of quest for ourselves in the desire of the other. 

乔治·保罗·梅欧：有一点，就是它让日后一代代人知道了精神分析学。在这里我就只提两个人，雅各·拉康的著作回顾了弗洛伊德的思想，特别是他关于性取向的著作，并试图回答我们一开始提到的那个问题，什么是性取向，以及到底有没有这样一套可以明确称为性的行为吗？而拉康得出了一个和弗洛伊德非常不同的结论。对拉康来说，性终究只是一个标识。他只是一种用于组织的标识，这个标识被用来把我们的欲望，把我们的取向塑造成一种秩序，用来指代我们追求他人的欲望。

George Paul Meiu: And another important figure, I would say, is Wilhelm Reiss, whose book in 1936, The Sexual Revolution takes Freud's insights about sexuality and links them to a critique of capitalism, where he actually makes precisely the point that capitalism requires the forms of repression, reaction formations that Freud describes precisely because it requires to produce and securitize to a certain extent, the patriarchal Oedipal family as a condition for the maintenance of its mode of production, its industrial mode of production.

乔治·保罗·梅欧：而另一个重要人物，要我说的话，是威廉·里斯。他在1936年出版的《性革命》吸取了弗洛依德对性取向的见解，并将他的理论和对资本主义的批判联系起来，明确的指出资本主义需要各种压抑，形成各种反动力量，因为它某种程度需要产生和稳定这种俄狄浦斯式的父权家庭结构，因为它给工业化的生产方式提供了得以维续的条件。

George Paul Meiu: Another set of influences. And I'm looking here at my own home discipline. Social anthropology was to prompt questions over the possible universality of the Oedipal. Is there something universal that Freud was describing, precisely because Freud is not very explicit about this. When he talks about civilization, well, what civilization, human civilization, or are we talking about Western civilization, or is this a very particular kind of argument? So you have people like Margaret Mead, for example, in the interwar period in the U.S. who became a famous public anthropologist, going to Samoa and studying adolescence and asking herself whether youth in Samoa undergo the same kind of sturm und drang, the same kind of turbulence in adolescence as people, as young people do in the US, and coming to the conclusion that that's not at all the case, that it is a cultural construction of adolescence, that that generates these paradoxes. probably more complex work. It was done by Bronislaw Malinowski of who was at LSE at the time, wasn't interwar period, who went to the Trobriand Islands to look at whether or not the oedipus is something one encounters there. So you take a presumably here, you take a very different culture than your own and you try to examine a certain kind of hypothesis. And what was interesting about trobriand islands was that the Tropicaners were matrilineal and did not recognize the role of the father in sexual reproduction, while did not recognize it's a different ontology of reproduction where spirits would bring about the fertilisation of reproduction.

乔治·保罗·梅欧：至于另外的一些影响，我就得说说我自己的学科了。社会人类学就在质疑俄狄浦斯恋母情结到底是不是一个普遍存在的现象。弗洛依德是不是在谈论一种普世的东西，尤其是弗洛伊德并没有说得很清楚。他在讨论文明的时候，到底哪一个文明，是人类文明，还是我们这里只是说西方文明？还是说他的观点只是针对一个具体的例子？举个例子，在两次世界大战之间在美国就有像玛格丽特·米德这样的人。她是一个颇负盛名的公共人类学家，去了萨摩亚群岛研究青春期，然后回答这样一个问题，即萨摩亚岛的青少年是否也会像美国的青少年一样，经历那种青少年的躁动不安期。最终得出结论完全不是这样，青春期只是一种文化建构，由此就产生了一些悖论。布朗尼斯洛夫·马林诺夫斯基进行了一个更复杂的研究，他当时还在伦敦政经学院，在一战期间，他到了特罗布里恩群岛，去看那里有没有俄狄浦斯情结。你可以大概想到，你去到一个和你的原生文化很不同的地方，然后试图验证这样一个假设。而特洛布里恩群岛很有趣的一点就是，他们是母系社会，所以意识不到父亲在繁育里的角色。他们对繁育有另外一种信仰，说是神灵让人受孕生子的。

George Paul Meiu: So in that context, the father did not necessarily play a central role that he would play in the Oedipal concept. Hence there is no one way to put concepts. So there is a lot of this very interesting work. 

乔治·保罗·梅欧：所以在那种情境下，父亲就不一定能在恋母情结里起到什么重要的作用。所以这个概念就有很多种说法。还有很多像这样有趣的研究。

George Paul Meiu: Much later, though, I'm talking here nineteen seventies and on. I do think that this work, Freud's work was very central to the production of what we come to know as queer theory, especially with the publication of Michel Foucault’s History of Sexuality, now Foucault is very critical of psychoanalysis. He says that the whole stuff about repression is nonsense because what you see in modernity is not repression is incitement to discourse, we should confess. I think there's a different understanding of repression here.  

乔治·保罗·梅欧：再往后呢，就到了20世纪70年代以后了。我认为弗洛伊德这本著作在催生我们所知的酷儿理论的时候起到了一个很重要作用，特别是米歇尔·福柯出版的《性史》。福柯对精神分析学是一种很批判的态度。他说所有这些关于压抑什么的东西完全就是胡说，因为你在现代社会里看到的不是压抑，而是煽动，透过煽动提出一种话语，要我们忏悔。我觉得他这里对压抑就是另外一种理解。

George Paul Meiu: But Foucault, like Freud, makes a very important move, an analytic move, a move that has to do more with aesthetic of his writing than with anything else.  In order to understand why sexuality is so central to contemporary politics, modes of subject, etc., we need to decenter to it. We need to let alone put aside those ideas that, you know, it is about how we have sex or what we desire and fantasize. It's about politics. Now, Freud already did something quite similar by using contradictions, using ambivalence, using this kind of enervating rhetorical technologies to questions whether or not there is something inherently sexual.  

乔治·保罗·梅欧：但福柯，就像弗洛伊德一样， 做出了很重要的一个分析，这个分析更多的是体现在他写作的文风。为了理解为什么性取向在当代政治，以及在主体的类型等等方面有这么关键的地位，我们应该把它去中心化。我们不应该去关注那些，你知道，像是我们如何进行性行为或者我们怎么渴求怎么去幻想它。它更多的是关于政治。而现在呢，弗洛依德已经通过使用这种模糊不清的修辞手段来质疑到底有没有一种本身就属于性的东西。

George Paul Meiu: And I think that a lot of the legacy of the book. I am, for example, teaching this book. And I think it's very important for students of sexuality to pay close attention to it because of the importance of its insights and methodology to contemporary sexuality politics. More than ever, we need this kind of decentering of sexuality in a world in which both conservative politics and liberatory kind of claims to rights reinforce sexuality as an immutable identity, as almost like the core defining element of subjectivity and puts in it kind of like over overburdens it, as it were, with the radically transformative potentialities, whether for the good or the bad. 

乔治·保罗·梅欧：而且我觉得这本书为后人留下了很多重要的遗产。比方说，我就在教这本书。而且我认为性别研究的学生应该对它的洞见和对当代性别政治采用的方法论更多地加以关注。我们现在比任何时候更需要这样把性去中心化，特别是在当今世界，不管是保守派政治还是自由派，都认为应当把性取向强化为一种不变的身份，就好像它是形成我们主体最核心的一个部分一样，已经搞得太过了，这就产生了一种非常强大的潜在力量，不管它会产生是好是坏的影响。

Zachary Davis: Freud’s writings on sexuality also attempted to provide insight into how homosexuality develops. Since he believed in the separation of sexual drive and the sexual object, he saw homosexuality as a potential deviation from typical sexual development.  

扎卡里·戴维斯：弗洛伊德关于性取向的论述还试图了解同性恋是如何产生的。由于他认为性冲动和性对像是彼此分离的，所以他认为同性恋就是正常性发育中潜在的一种偏离。

George Paul Meiu: I think that unquestionably, queer theory has emerged with a set from a set of very mundane practices. You know, the underground kind of clubs and bars and sex clubs, the back alleys in which a certain kind of queer culture or counterculture was possible in a context of, you know, we're talking in the 50s, 60s, heavy policing of queer bodies. So the idea was that one had to embrace what Freud calls perversion as the source of life. How, by engaging in something allegedly perverse, can we imagine other kinds of worlds?

乔治·保罗·梅欧：我觉得毫无疑问，酷儿理论发源自一系列非常世俗的情境，你知道的，那种地下俱乐部，酒吧，夜总会，还有后街小巷里，只有这种环境才能孕育出那种酷儿理论或者反叛文化。你知道，我们说的是上个世纪50，60年代，当时对酷儿们的身体管制很严格。而当时有人就必依靠抱弗洛伊德所称的那种反常行为来维持生计。就靠进行那些所谓的反常行为，我们能想象出那样一种世界吗？

Zachary Davis: Before the 1990s, New York City was a place where these imagined worlds actually existed.  

扎卡里·戴维斯：在上个世纪90年代以前，纽约就是这样一个想象中的世界。

George Paul Meiu: For example, the fact that people from Manhattan and from Brooklyn and we could mix together and engage in anonymous sex in a way in which class and race and social standing mattered way less, if at all, in a context of anonymous encounters, than it would in everyday life in the city. And the fact that this kind of encounter, this is just one example, one can give many probably from. And in a microcosm entail the potentiality of a different kind of world. in a world in which those sorts of differences and hierarchies would matter less, if at all. And that, of course, has produced also communities of scholars like that come to know better known as queer theorists and so on, as alternative spaces in which one can think questions of, say, kinship, place, the city, the role of sexuality to issues of respectability and failure in context in which academia itself had been normatively, as we know, hetero-patriarchal. 

乔治·保罗·梅欧：举个例子吧，事实上曼哈顿的居民和布鲁克林的居民就可以相对无视阶级种族与社会地位，互相交流，进行匿名的邂逅，毕竟这种邂逅跟日常生活相比是匿名的。而这种邂逅只是其中一种例子，我们还可以给出很多各种例子。而在这样一种缩影里面，就潜在地催生了另外一种世界，在这样一个世界里，所有那些差异，那些阶级都不那么重要了。而这些，当然了，也就催生了一个学者群体，也就是后来所知的酷儿理论家们，等等。他们就有了一个空间可以思考一些问题，比如亲缘关系，他们所处的位置，这个城市，还有性取向是否会影响一个人的体面，是否会影响他们的成功，特别是考虑到学术界一直以来都由异性恋和父权所主导。

George Paul Meiu: But what's interesting is that. Although it emerged around these debates, queer theory itself came to question the stability of sexuality. Now here is a key paradox of queer theory it emerges around certain set of seemingly mutable sexual identities, but it comes to realize that any kind of deep, critical thought has to question the sexual as immutable and has to question identity as a mode of political organization or expression, et cetera.

乔治·保罗·梅欧：但有趣的一点是，尽管酷儿理论诞生自这样一些争论，但它本身也质疑性取向是否是稳定的。现在一个核心的悖论就是酷儿理论本身似乎就诞生于一系列可以转换的性别身份，但它之后就意识到任何深入的批判思考都必然要质疑性取向本身是否真的永恒不变，它必然要质疑身份本身是否就是一种政治上的组织或者表达方式，等等。

George Paul Meiu: And in doing that, queering, you know, now the queer theory is much more about the act of queering than about, you know, self-identifying necessarily queer people. queering means troubling, upsetting, subverting the idea of this kind of stable thing that we might call sexuality. And in a way, Freud was already doing something like that already. And hence Freud is so central to many queer theorists nowadays.  

乔治·保罗·梅欧：通过这样，你要知道，现在新的酷儿理论更多是指酷儿这种行为，而不是自我身份认同为酷儿人群。酷儿本身的意思就是混乱怪异，它颠覆我们所认为的好像性取向固定不变的这个概念。在某种形式上，弗洛伊德就已经做过这种类似的事了。所以弗洛伊德现在在很多酷儿理论家心目中都有一个很重要的地位。

George Paul Meiu: So this is just in a nutshell, the role of queer theory and queer community building. I think that still echoes some of the things that Freud was doing. 

乔治·保罗·梅欧：这里我就简单阐述了一下，酷儿理论和酷儿群体建设所扮演的一个角色。我觉的他们跟弗洛伊德所做的就有很多共鸣。

Zachary Davis: Where are we at culturally in our approach to sexuality, you know, what have we learned about this mysterious thing that is nature and nurture and, you know, politics and body? You know, take us, take us to where we are today.

扎卡里·戴维斯：那我们现在对性别方面研究文化上处于什么位置呢，你知道的，我们现在对于这一个很神秘的既受先天又受后天影响的东西有什么了解呢？我们对于身体政治又有多少理解呢？您给我们讲讲我们当下的一些成果吧。

George Paul Meiu: I think one thing that we're getting better at is the study of the normative and understand certain kind of understanding of why and how in late capitalism and the contemporary global order, normative images are produced by investment in something called sexuality. And we have scholars and graduate students working all across the world paying attention to processes in which, for example, the state tries to securitize the sexuality to nativist sexuality of its citizens. You know, these kinds of utopias and you see this in ethno nationalist movements across the world. You know, “the foreigners bring us threatening sexuality”. You know, “if only we let foreign homosexuality in, it's going to destroy our children”. Or the reverse a certain kind of queer liberalism that we see now in in the Netherlands, for example, or France, where “if only these immigrants come with their conservative sexual practices or in the US plenty, or the kind of like achievements we have acquired in sexual liberation are going to be lost”. 

乔治·保罗·梅欧：我想我们现在已经更加了解的就是对日常规范的研究，并进一步了解为什么在资本主义晚期一个当代世界秩序里，规范化的形象是怎样通过对所谓性取向的投入来实现的。我们在全世界都有学者和研究生研究这种过程，像是国家试图把性取向稳定下来作为其公民与生俱来的一种性取向。你知道的，在全世界种族民族主义运动里你都能看到这种类似乌托邦的东西。像是“是外国人带来了这些不良的性取向”。像是“如果我们让国外的同性文化进到我们国家，就会毁了我们孩子”，或者像是反过来我们在荷兰，还有比方说法国，我们看到，像是“如果移民把它们保守的性观念带进来，那我们就要失去性解放运动已经取得的成果了”。这种现在在美国也很常见。

George Paul Meiu: So we have better and better conceptual tools to question this growing, globalized centrality of sexuality as a category of belonging, citizenship, a market production, consumption. At the same time that we see a growing reinvestment in the sphere of sexuality in, in politics. 

乔治·保罗·梅欧：所以我们就有了更好、更概念化的工具来质疑这种日益增长的，全球化的，把性取向作为一种重要的归属类别，一种公民身份，一种市场化的生产与消费。与此同时，我们也可以看到更多人都在重新再思考性取向，还有政治方面等问题。

George Paul Meiu: And one worrisome one trend that to me is a bit worrisome is that we're not just talking about conservative, about radical right politics, investing in this narrow understanding of sexuality, but growingly what is seen is liberal-left politics itself perpetuates this fetishization of sexuality. And one then needs as a political act to go to a text like Freud, to go to queer theory and ask what kind of more encompassing, more radical politics and possibilities are thrown out the window by this commitment to a narrow notion of most immutable sexuality, sexuality, sexual identity.

乔治·保罗·梅欧：而一个让我有些担忧的趋势是，我们说的并不只是保守派或者极端右翼在加深这种对性取向的狭隘理解，我们现在还看到左翼自由派自身也在传播这种对性取向的迷恋。这个时候就需要政治上我们去解读像弗洛依德这样的作品，去了解酷儿理论，然后问一问会不会有别的可能性？这种把性取向，性别身份看作是一成不变的狭隘观念有没有可能把其它一些更包容、更激进的政治主张和潜在可能性都给挤兑掉了？

Zachary Davis: At a time when the scientific community was looking to biology for all the answers, Freud focused instead on the external factors that shape a person’s development. He plunged into the mysterious depths of the human psyche and laid the foundation for modern psychology. And by questioning the nature and development of sexuality, Freud opened up new ways of thinking about what is normal and what is perverse.  

扎卡里·戴维斯：在一个科研群体都在试图用生物学回答一切问题的时代，弗洛依德却去关注那些影响个人成长的外在因素。他把一生投入到了对神秘的人类心智的探索中，并为现代心理学打下了基础。通过质疑自然和性取向的发展，弗洛伊德为思考何为正常何谓反常打开了一个新的思路。

George Paul Meiu: It has offered a certain kind of basis, a reassurance for things such as gay rights activism in the early second half of the 20th century, this very simple idea that perversion is not isolated two types, but it is a condition of possibility and an inherent part of whatever comes to be called the normal. In other words, we're all perverts. The simple recognition work to depathologies has had the potential to depathologize, for example, same-sex relations, but the idea that there is no such thing as homosexuals in heterosexual, but we're somehow all bisexual, there's a certain kind of continuum of more or less, is itself an attempt to denaturalized this kind of sexual typology that was influenced by the kind of questioning and troubling and unruly writing, if you will, of someone like Freud.

乔治·保罗·梅欧：它提供了一种出发点，肯定了诸如20世纪后半叶早期的同性权益运动。他这样一个很简单的观点，即行为并非只有正常与反常两种。反常其实是一种潜在的可能，是所谓正常行为里内在的一部分。换句话说，我们都有点反常。这一认识就潜在地把同性行为不再当成疾病来看待。他的观点并不是说有什么同性恋异性恋之分，而是你我多多少少都有点同性恋，只是一个或多或少的程度问题。这就是在试图动摇之前那种性取向的分类法，靠的就是像弗洛伊德这样的质疑，还有他隐晦的不拘一格的笔法的影响。

Zachary Davis: Writ Large is a production of Ximalaya. Writ Large is produced by Jack Pombriant, Liza French, and me, Zachary Davis. Script editing is by Galen Beebe. We get help from Feiran Du, Ariel Liu, and Monica Zhang. Our theme song is by Ian Coss. Don’t miss an episode. Subscribe today in the Ximalaya app. Thanks for listening. See you next time.

扎卡里·戴维斯：本节目由喜马拉雅独家制作播出。感谢您的收听，我们下期再见！