【英文原声版70】Stathis Gourgouris: Orientalism

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Zachary Davis: Beginning in the 17th century, European countries such as Britain and France began colonizing various countries in the east of Europe. These cultures they encountered were very different from their own. The European colonizers imposed their culture on the people they were colonizing and exploited them for free labor and natural resources. The Europeans tried to justify their colonization efforts by framing it as a civilizing mission, that they were helping these people by bringing them into the modern age.

扎卡里·戴维斯：从17世纪开始，英国、法国等欧洲国家开始在欧洲以东的各个国家殖民。这些国家的文化与他们自己的文化完全不同。欧洲殖民者将自己的文化强加给殖民地民众，剥削他们，把他们用作免费劳动力，掠夺当地的自然资源。欧洲人努力粉饰自己的殖民行径，把它美化为传播文明，声称自己在帮助殖民地民众迈向现代化。

Zachary Davis: This view has largely and negatively shaped how Western societies view this part of the world sometimes called “The East.” For hundreds of years, Westerners justified this view, presenting themselves and believing themselves to be better than Eastern peoples. Part of how they did this was through the academic discipline called Orientalism.

扎卡里·戴维斯：这种观点在很大程度上阻碍了西方社会正确看待这块有时被称为“东方”的地方。数百年来，西方人努力证明并相信，自己比东方人更优越。努力的方式之一便是建立了一门叫“东方学”的学科。

Stathis Gourgouris: Orientalism is a discipline of studies of language, culture, and history that is oriented—this is really not a pun, but that's precisely the point—towards the cultures of the East. And “the East” is a very, very broad category that includes basically anything that's east of Istanbul, actually. So all the way to the, what we call “the Far East,” which is now no longer being said. “The Near East” is the kind of Mediterranean, sort of Arab world. “The Far East” is the world of China and Japan and so on.

斯塔西斯·古尔古里：东方学是一门研究东方的学科。我没有在玩文字游戏，“东方”就是这门学科的研究对象，包括东方各文化的语言、文化和历史。“东方”是一个非常广的概念，基本包括了从伊斯坦布尔到远东的所有地区。当然“远东”这个概念现在已经没有什么人说了。“近东”指的是地中海东部沿岸地区，近似于阿拉伯世界。“远东”则是指中国、日本等等。

Zachary Davis: That’s Stathis Gougouris, professor of comparative literature and society at Columbia University. For hundreds of years, Orientalism went hand in hand with the politics of the time. When Europeans studied these cultures as “other”, they justified their view that the so-called East was lesser than Europe.

扎卡里·戴维斯：这位是哥伦比亚大学比较文学和社会学教授斯塔西斯·古尔古里。几百年来，东方学的发展与时事政治密不可分。欧洲人把东方文化当作他者来研究，这也意味着他们在巩固“东方不如欧洲”观点。

Stathis Gourgouris: They studied those cultures as the opposite of Europe. I mean, quite clearly they understood their ancient significance, even their ancient glory. It’s not that they minimized the achievements, let's say, of Chinese civilization. They didn't, but they saw it as considerably, something considerably different, “other” to what is Europe.

斯塔西斯·古尔古里：他们把这些文化作为欧洲的反面来研究。显然，他们清楚这些古老文化的意义，甚至清楚它们过去的辉煌。他们并没有把东方文化、比如中国文化贬得一钱不值，但把它看作与欧洲文化截然不同的东西，看作他者。

Zachary Davis: Professor of literature and public intellectual Edward Said gave a new meaning to the term “Orientalism”. He used the term to refer to the West’s condescending depiction and portrayal of the East. In 1978 he published his book of the same name.

扎卡里·戴维斯：文学教授和公共知识分子爱德华·萨义德为“东方学”一词赋予了新的含义。他认为，这个词展现了西方对东方的居高临下的描述和刻画。1978年，他出版了一本名叫《东方学》的著作。

Stathis Gourgouris: It's a study of how European societies, primarily British and French, constructed—first of all, envisioned—and enacted a world that we call “the Orient”—that they called the Orient back then, that we call the East now.

斯塔西斯·古尔古里：以英法为主的欧洲社会用东方学设想、建构了这个叫作“东方（the Orient）”的地方。这是从前的叫法；如今我们用另一个“东方（the East）”来称呼。

Zachary Davis: Welcome to Writ Large, a podcast about how books change the world. I’m Zachary Davis. In each episode, I talk with one of the world’s leading scholars about one book that changed the course of history. For this episode, I sat down with Professor Stathis Gourgouris to discuss Edward Said’s Orientalism.

扎卡里·戴维斯：欢迎收听：改变你和世界的100书，在这里我们为大家讲述改变世界的书籍。我是扎卡里·戴维斯。每一集，我都会和一位世界顶尖学者讨论一本影响历史进程的书。在本集，我和斯塔西斯·古尔古里教授一起讨论爱德华·萨义德的《东方学》。

Stathis Gourgouris: One of the points that Said makes in Orientalism is that this, what he called sort of “the construction of the East” as a category was characterized by the fact that it belonged entirely to the past, that whatever it had achieved had been done and that in the present, it was a world that was not developing, that in essence, it had remained in this sort of ancient past, in essence, not even proximate. And that its civilization at the current point was a kind of—current point being the 19th century—was in decline, in a kind of irreparable decline.

斯塔西斯·古尔古里：萨义德在《东方学》中提出了一个观点。他所谓的“建构东方”的学科有一个显著的特点，就是把视线完全放在了过去。东方的所有成就都来自过去；而在当下，东方是一片有待发展的地区，基本一直停留在古老的过去，甚至没有朝近代迈步。在当时，也就是19世纪的时候，东方文明正处于难以逆转的衰落之中。

Zachary Davis: Orientalism the academic discipline celebrated the achievements of ancient Eastern societies. But in doing so, it simultaneously framed contemporary Eastern societies as lesser than their ancient counterparts. Because the Europeans engaging in Orientalist studies and colonization saw themselves as superior to modern Eastern societies, they felt entitled to claim their historical artifacts.

扎卡里·戴维斯：东方学颂扬了古代东方社会的成就。但这样一来，它也将现代东方社会置于比古代东方社会更低的位置。从事东方学研究和殖民活动的欧洲人认为现代欧洲比现代东方更优越，因而觉得自己有权掠走东方的历史文物。

Stathis Gourgouris: Another discipline that is very, very much implicated in Orientalism, literally in the 19th century, is archaeology. Archaeology being, again, you know, the kind of science and discipline that is conducted elsewhere in that sense. Hence, you know, the great excavations, of course, in the eastern Mediterranean world at the time. So it was a kind of archaeology of cultures that are presumed to have died. And that is a very important separation point: while European cultures are still living in a vibrant etc. etc..

斯塔西斯·古尔古里：在19世纪，另一门与东方学息息相关的学科是考古学。从同样的角度看，考古学重建的仍然是他处的文化。当时地中海东岸开展了一些重大的考古活动，挖掘着被认为已经消逝了的文化。这就是一个重要的区别。与之相反，欧洲文化被认为仍然欣欣向荣。

Zachary Davis: These European scientists and academics took their work very seriously.

扎卡里·戴维斯：这些欧洲科学家和学者非常认真地看待自己的工作。

Stathis Gourgouris: They were experts. They knew languages, extraordinary number of languages, and they were very learned. And Said, you know, to be fair, he talks about that. He recognizes the knowledge that they have. He contextualizes this knowledge and politicizes it—And I mean “politicizes” here in the best possible sense, understands its politics, I mean. But he recognizes it.

斯塔西斯·古尔古里：他们是专家，懂很多语言，非常博学。坦白来说，萨义德也谈到了这一点。他肯定了他们的学识，将这些学识语境化、政治化。我说的“政治化”是最褒义的政治化，也就是理解它的政治涵义。他肯定了这一点。

Zachary Davis: Because Europe had established colonies in the East, Orientalism the discipline wasn’t confined to the page. It was popular for aristocratic youth to take a year or two off from school to travel to these places in the European colonial sphere and study these ancient cultures.

扎卡里·戴维斯：欧洲在东方建立了殖民地，所以东方学这门学科的研究并不局限于书本。很多贵族青年都喜欢休学一两年，去欧洲殖民地旅行，研究这些地方的古代文化。

Stathis Gourgouris: So, in the context of that kind of aristocratic colonial privilege, you have these travelers. It was called The Grand Tour, as we know it. And they would travel to these lands where great civilizations once existed, to which they have access now to travel because of, precisely because of colonialism.

斯塔西斯·古尔古里：在贵族阶层的殖民特权下，他们得以开启旅行。这些旅行被称为“大陆游学”。他们会游历这些诞生过璀璨文明的土地。而他们之所以能够到达这些地方，正是因为殖民主义。

Zachary Davis: The Grand Tour typically began in Greece and Rome. Although Western European society drew much inspiration from the ancient Classical world, modern Greece was still categorized as being part of the East.

扎卡里·戴维斯：“大陆游学”的起点往往是希腊和罗马。虽然西欧社会从古典世界中汲取了很多灵感，但现代希腊仍被归为东方的一部分。

Stathis Gourgouris: Greece at that point is still part of the Ottoman Empire. So in that sense, Greece is very, very much part of the Orient. And Italy does not exist as a nation. It’s just a bunch of principalities.

斯塔西斯·古尔古里：希腊在那个时候仍然隶属于奥斯曼帝国。从这个意义上说，希腊是绝对的东方。而意大利当时尚没有形成一个统一的国家，只有一群公国。

Zachary Davis: The Grand Tour, like archaeology, focused on the past achievements of great civilizations from these regions. But by doing so, it diminished the modern cultures in those areas.

扎卡里·戴维斯：“大陆游学”和考古学一样，关注着这些地区伟大文明的历史成就。但这样做的同时，它也掩盖了这些地区的现代文化。

Stathis Gourgouris: It's a famous quotation by René Chateaubriand, who was one of the great writers of the French Romanticism. He says, “I'm traveling to Greece to see a culture which is dead,” something like that, or “to see the culture of a people who are dead,” which is kind of remarkable because there are people living there, right? But for him the people who live there don't matter at all. What matters are the traces of people who have died. So, that is indicative of Orientalist attitudes. People would travel through, and they would be unconcerned with what goes on around. And they would look at these archaeological sites.

斯塔西斯·古尔古里：法国伟大的浪漫主义作家勒内·夏多布里昂说过一句名言，内容大致是“我去希腊游历是为了瞻仰死去的文化”或者“是为了瞻仰一群死人创造的文化”。这句话很有意思，因为希腊的土地上也住着活人。但对他来说，这些活人都无关紧要，重要的是那些死人留下的印记。它展现了东方学对东方的态度。人们会四处游历，参观考古遗址，对周围切实发生的事情却漠不关心。

Zachary Davis: In this way, European academia and politics perpetuated colonialism and justified the view that Europe was superior to Asia. This view spread through European popular culture as well. Many Europeans who went on The Grand Tour would then write fictional and non-fictional accounts based on their experiences of these foreign cultures.

扎卡里·戴维斯：这样一来，欧洲的学术界和政治界延续着殖民主义思维，维护着“欧洲优于亚洲”的观点。这一观点也经由欧洲流行文化传播开来。许多参与了“大陆游学”的欧洲人根据他们对这些异域文化的体验，写下了虚构和非虚构作品。

Stathis Gourgouris: They would get to write about them in these narratives, which were sort of like chronicles, which would then became bestsellers. They became incredibly widely read accounts and translated in many of the European languages and read by the youth, including women. This is actually also very important—of course, of the privileged classes, again, it goes without saying. And that became part of their education, in the broader sense, their cultivation.

斯塔西斯·古尔古里：他们会在这些编年史一般的作品中谈到东方。这些书会畅销一时，被人们广泛阅读，被翻译成许多欧洲语言，在年轻人和女性之中广为传阅。不言而喻的是，这对特权阶级来说也非常重要，成了他们教育乃至成长经历的一部分。

Zachary Davis: In addition to European literature about the East, Orientalism also was expressed in the visual arts. European painters, especially French and English, depicted magical scenes of the East, blurring the line between fantasy and reality.

扎卡里·戴维斯：东方学的思想不仅展现在关于东方的欧洲文学作品上，也展现在视觉艺术上。欧洲画家，尤其是法国和英国画家，描绘了东方的神秘景象，亦真亦幻。

Stathis Gourgouris: So, in that sense, you know, Orientalism as a kind of popular fiction, a kind of inventory of images and values becomes ingrained in the kind of earliest development of minds in Europe and then begins to perpetuate itself.

斯塔西斯·古尔古里：从这个意义上看，东方学作为一种流行虚构叙事、一套图像和价值观的组合，渐渐扎根于欧洲最早期的思想发展中，一直延续下去。

Zachary Davis:What was driving that interest in ruins and in past civilizations? And what exactly gave them that cultural arrogance that they were so much better?

扎卡里·戴维斯：他们为什么对废墟和过去的文明感兴趣？为什么在文化上如此傲慢，自认为远远优于其他文明？

Stathis Gourgouris: This is colonial arrogance, the fact that you can conquer these lands and that you can subjugate them. I mean, you know, when the British were able to subjugate the Indian subcontinent. I mean, there's an extraordinary culture with an incredible history and power. The very fact they were able to do that gives them a sense that they're superior. And the superiority is not just a military kind. That's the key here. It's not just military and economic. That's where it begins. It has to be cultural in order to be cemented, in order to be legitimized.

斯塔西斯·古尔古里：这是殖民主义的傲慢。他们可以征服这些土地，这样的事实造就了他们的傲慢。英国人征服南亚次大陆的时候发现，那儿有着璀璨的历史，有过显赫的帝国。他们征服了这片土地，因而有了一种优越感。关键在于，这种优越感始于军事与经济方面，却不仅仅流露于这两个方面。它还必须流露于文化方面，这样这种优越感才能得以巩固、得以合理化。

Zachary Davis: Said talks about this in Orientalism. He describes Napoleon Bonaparte’s expedition to Egypt in the late 18th century. Napoleon conquered the Egyptian cities of Cairo and Alexandria in 1798. On his conquest, he took with him top geographers, linguists, and archaeologists who tried to map and categorize everything about Egyptian culture.

扎卡里·戴维斯：萨义德在《东方学》中谈到了这一点。他叙述了18世纪拿破仑·波拿巴远征埃及的历史。1798年，拿破仑征服了埃及的开罗和亚历山大。远征时，他带着顶级的地理学家、语言学家和考古学家，这些人试图绘制、划分埃及文化的方方面面。

Stathis Gourgouris: So, these people are part of the kind of military expedition, this kind of army of knowledge-makers. This is how it has to be seen. And that's part of the conquest. So, yes, this shows incredible arrogance, extraordinary arrogance, which comes out of the power to conquer. This is the only way I can explain it.

斯塔西斯·古尔古里：这支由知识创造者构成的团队也是军事远征的一部分。他们应当被这样理解，应当被视作征服活动的一部分。但我只能这么来解读：这展现了征服者极度的、想要征服一切的傲慢。

Zachary Davis: Said’s own life was shaped by colonialism.

扎卡里·戴维斯：萨义德本人的经历就深受殖民主义的影响。

Stathis Gourgouris: Said was born in Jerusalem in 1935 under the, at that point, in fact, it was Mandatory Palestine, under British rule. So he was born in a colonial framework. That is absolutely essential. And his schooling was British colonial schooling.

斯塔西斯·古尔古里：1935年，萨义德于出生在耶路撒冷。准确来说，当时这儿还是英国统治下的巴勒斯坦托管地。显然他出生于殖民主义体系之下。这一点对我们了解萨义德非常重要。读书时，他接受的是英国殖民教育。

Zachary Davis: Said moved with his family from Jerusalem to Cairo in 1947 when he was 12 years old. Egypt had gained its independence from Britain in 1922, but British troops were still in Cairo when Said and his family arrived.

扎卡里·戴维斯：1947年，萨义德随家人从耶路撒冷搬到开罗，那年他12岁。1922年，埃及在名义上从英国独立了出去，但萨义德一家到达开罗时，那儿还驻扎着英国军队。

Stathis Gourgouris: And he grows up in Cairo, where, of course, Egypt is an independent nation ,yes, but the British colonial structure still exists, particularly in the schooling for the elites. So he is prepared unwittingly by being an object of the same exact education of how the youth of Europe, the elite youth of Europe, the educated youth of Europe, learns about itself through various kinds of representations of culture, of itself and of others. So, that's ingrained in him. He embodies it.

斯塔西斯·古尔古里：萨义德在开罗长大。埃及当时名义上是一个独立的国家，但英国的殖民力量仍然存在于那儿，尤其存在于精英的学校教育之中。不知不觉间，萨义德接受了和欧洲青年精英一样的教育，通过文化、自我和他者的各种象征之物来了解自己的文化。这一点在他身上根深蒂固。他是这种教育的典型代表。

Zachary Davis: This was an important part of Said’s formative years and played a huge role in the work he did later in life, including Orientalism. Said was born Palestinian and was educated under British colonial structures in Egypt. He grew up speaking both Arabic and English and did not feel entirely comfortable with either identity. In addition, his father was an American citizen.

扎卡里·戴维斯：这是萨义德成长时期的一个重要特点，在很大程度上这也让他得以在日后写出《东方学》等著作。萨义德出生在巴勒斯坦，在埃及的英国殖民体系下接受了教育。他在成长过程中既讲阿拉伯语又讲英语，对这两种身份都不完全适应。他的父亲还是一位美国公民。

Zachary Davis: In his 2002 text Reflections on Exile and Other Essays, Said comments on his youth, “With an unexceptionally Arab family name like Said connected to an improbably British first name… I was an uncomfortably anomalous student all through my early years: a Palestinian going to school in Egypt, with an English first name, an American passport, and no certain identity at all...”

扎卡里·戴维斯：在他2002年的著作《流亡的反思及其他论文》中，萨义德这样评论了他的青年时期：“我有着‘萨义德’这样一个非常阿拉伯的姓氏和一个与之不搭的英国名字……早年，我一直是个极其不合常理的学生：一个在埃及上学的巴勒斯坦人，有一个英国名字，一个美国护照，根本没有确定的身份……”

Stathis Gourgouris: Eventually the young Said ends up in the United States, goes to school in the U.S., and follows an American education of a very elite kind, goes to Princeton and to Harvard and becomes a professor at Columbia. It's the sort of the epitome of a very successful young American, which I think up until a certain point he fully embodied, meaning that the Arab-ness of Said was always present in his personal life, but it was not part of his intellectual world.

斯塔西斯·古尔古里：最终，年轻的萨义德来到了美国，在美国上学，在普林斯顿大学和哈佛大学接受了顶尖的美国教育，成为了哥伦比亚大学的教授。他是千万个成功的美国年轻人的缩影。我觉得当时他完全是美国优秀青年的代表。他的阿拉伯身份一直存在于他的个人生活中，但还没有出现在他的学术生活中。

Zachary Davis: While teaching at Columbia University, Said reached a turning point. In June of 1967, a war broke out between Israel, Jordan, Syria, and Egypt. This was known as the Six Day War. After six days of fighting, Israel occupied the Gaza Strip, the Sinai Peninsula of Egypt, the Golan Heights of Syria, and the West Bank and Arab sector of East Jerusalem.

扎卡里·戴维斯：在哥伦比亚大学任教时，萨义德经历了一场人生转折。1967年6月，以色列、约旦、叙利亚和埃及之间爆发了一场战争，这便是第三次中东战争，又称“六日战争”。经过六天的战斗，以色列占领了加沙地带、埃及的西奈半岛、叙利亚的戈兰高地、约旦河西岸地区以及东耶路撒冷的阿拉伯辖区。

Zachary Davis: Israel now occupied land that was previously Palestinian territory, including all of Jerusalem and its holy sites. The war had a huge impact on Said, who was born in Jerusalem and grew up Palestinian.

扎卡里·戴维斯：以色列占领的土地曾是巴勒斯坦的领土，包括耶路撒冷旧城及其圣殿。萨义德出生在耶路撒冷，在巴勒斯坦长大。这场战争深深地影响了他。

Stathis Gourgouris: As a professor at Columbia in New York, he gets to experience the New York side of the Six Day War in 1967, which radicalized him. I think we have to use that term here, politicizes him in a certain way that hadn't been before in terms of him being a Palestinian— an Arab generally, but a Palestinian specifically.

斯塔西斯·古尔古里：他当时是纽约哥伦比亚大学的教授，体会了纽约方面在这场战争中的态度。这让他变得激进起来，让他前所未有地政治化。在这儿我必须用“政治化”这个词，毕竟他是个巴勒斯坦人——广义上讲是阿拉伯人，但准确来说是巴勒斯坦人。

Zachary Davis: For the next decade, Said focused his attention on politics.

扎卡里·戴维斯：之后的十年里，萨义德将关注点放在了政治上。

Stathis Gourgouris: In this ten year period, Said will become increasingly concerned with matters of, Palestinian matters and with generally how the colonial and by then imperial machine, which now would include the United States, is engaged in these societies. What is it doing to these societies? So, suddenly the background of his childhood and his youth in Jerusalem and Cairo is kind of coming to the forefront in a very different light, you see. And in the same period, three things happen. One, of course, is the research that leads into Orientalism. The second is his first political work, which is collected in a book called The Question of Palestine. And also he becomes part of the Palestinian National Council in 1977, a year before Orientalism is published.

斯塔西斯·古尔古里：这十年里，萨义德越来越关注巴勒斯坦问题以及更广泛的殖民问题。他探讨了殖民主义与当时的帝国主义机器、包括如今的美国如何介入到了东方社会之中、对这些社会做了什么。你会发现，突然之间他童年与青年时代在耶路撒冷和开罗的经历以一种非常不同的方式出现在了人们面前。随之而来的有三项成果。其一当然是对东方学的研究，最终汇成了《东方学》这本书。其二是他的第一部政治作品，收录在《巴勒斯坦问题》一书中。其三，在1977年，也就是《东方学》出版的前一年，他成为了巴勒斯坦国民议会的成员。

Stathis Gourgouris: I think this is a very important part of the biography, and it helps us contextualize the book. Now, Said himself always said, it is very, very important that “I am a professor of literature. I don't do politics”. He did politics, but he was trying to separate the two things. I think he tried very hard to do this his entire life. Whether he succeeded or not, it's kind of irrelevant because in a sense, I don't think that they can be separated. But in any case, I think that enabled him to work a certain way.

斯塔西斯·古尔古里：我觉得这是他人生中非常重要的一部分，可以帮助我们了解《东方学》这本书的背景。萨义德本人总是说自己“是文学教授，不涉足政治”，这一点非常重要。他虽涉足政治，但总想把这两块分开。整个一生，他都在非常努力地把这两块划开。他有没有成功实现这一点，我觉得倒并不重要。从某种意义上讲，我觉得文学和政治是无法分开的。但不管怎么说，这让他以一种特定的方式开展自己的研究。

Stathis Gourgouris: So Orientalism as a book, the book now, also draws from his learning as a professor of comparative literature and as a student of great European cultures and its history. But with a slight change—Well, the change is not slight, it's actually huge, right? The perspective, the shifting perspective is incredibly important. Suddenly, he begins to see this from the other side.

斯塔西斯·古尔古里：《东方学》这本书也融合了他在比较文学和欧洲历史文化研究方面的知识，不过有了一点变化。这个变化非但不细微，反而异常显著——是视角上的转变。这种转变非常重要。突然之间，他开始从另一个角度看问题。

Zachary Davis: Said received a very Western education, beginning in British-occupied Cairo through his time at Princeton and Harvard. But his research and works in the years leading up to Orientalism gave him a non-Western perspective on colonialism and Western occupation in the rest of the world.

扎卡里·戴维斯：从儿时在英国占领下的开罗，一直到在普林斯顿和哈佛求学，萨义德接受的都是非常西式的教育。但他对东方学多年的研究以及最终写成的《东方学》这本著作，让他在思考殖民主义和西方占领下的非西方世界时具备了非西方的视角。

Stathis Gourgouris: At that point, his interest in colonialism also begins, which will inform all of the post-Orientalism work.

斯塔西斯·古尔古里：这时候，他对研究殖民主义开始有了兴趣，这影响了后来所有的后东方主义研究。

Zachary Davis: What is, at its highest level, is the book arguing? And then, and maybe take us through the arc of the argument and some of your pieces of it that you find most compelling.

扎卡里·戴维斯：用最概括的话来说，这本书的论点是什么？您可以带我们了解一下这个论点吗？您觉得其中哪些部分最让人称赞呢？

Stathis Gourgouris: The object of study is, you know, various levels of cultural making, from literature, which includes travel narratives, all the way to, you know, historical works, social science sort of works where linguistics and philology, and all the way to political, both works of politics, meaning sort of political philosophy, but also politics as a vocation, as a practice. So, the whole machinery of culture and education of Europe.

斯塔西斯·古尔古里：这本书研究的对象是各个层面的文化成果，包括文学——旅行文学便是其中之一；此外还有历史学、社会学、语言学、语文学著作；还包括了政治——既研究了政治学著作，也就是政治哲学，也研究了政治生活与政治实践。它几乎囊括了欧洲文化与教育体系中的各个研究领域。

Stathis Gourgouris: It's very important, of course, to also say at the outset, you know, the beginning, that the book also shows how the categories “East” and “West” are really... they don't exist as such. They exist as categories because they've been invented as categories. There are categories of geography and history—those are the two terms, right, geography and history—which are inventions.

斯塔西斯·古尔古里：当然首先我们还有必要知道，这本书向我们展示了“东方”与“西方”的划分是如何出现的。事实上并不存在这样的“东方”和“西方”。之所以如此划分，是因为它们被发明出来用来给地理和历史归类。这两个地理和历史维度的术语是人为发明出来的。

Stathis Gourgouris: It's not that people don't exist in these societies, you know, real people with real histories and so on. It's that whatever the real histories and real experiences are, they are overcome by these constructions, which then, you know, these constructions are perfectly real. They're constructions, but they're perfectly real. They have real consequences. And then the book is also, in that respect, a kind of study of those consequences at a secondary level.

斯塔西斯·古尔古里：并不是说人们不存在于这些社会中，毕竟人物、历史等等都真实存在。可是无论真实的历史和传统是怎样的，它们都覆盖在了术语的建构之下。这些建构极其真实。它们是人为建构的，却又极其真实，造成了真实的影响。从这个角度上看，这本书也是对这些影响的次生研究。

Zachary Davis: Said drew inspiration from the Italian philosopher Antonio Gramsci. In his pamphlets known as The Prison Notebooks, Gramsci explores why people in lower levels of power agree to be ruled by those in higher positions of power. He says the dominating people manipulate morality, culture, and logic to gain the upper hand. This includes creating geographic boundaries that can be used to categorize and oppress others.

扎卡里·戴维斯：萨义德从意大利哲学家安东尼奥·葛兰西那里获得了灵感。在他名为《狱中札记》的小册子中，葛兰西探讨了为什么权力层次较低的人同意被权力层次较高的人统治。他认为统治者操纵道德、文化和逻辑来获得优势，其中便包括划定可用于划分、压迫他者的地理界线。

Stathis Gourgouris: I think the motto is from Marx. It's a classic. You know, “They cannot represent themselves; they must be represented.” So, you know, geography is a kind of mode of thinking, a framework of thinking that produces certain representations. History does the same, right? You know, living culture versus dead culture because, you know, these cultures have never come into the present. That's kind of a crude way to think of it.

斯塔西斯·古尔古里：马克思有一句经典名言：“他们无法表述自己；他们必须被别人表述。”地理划分是一种思维模式，一种催生特定象征之物的思维框架。历史划分也是如此，将文化划为如今的和过去的、未保留至今的。这种思考方式非常粗浅。

Zachary Davi: Another powerful tool is the manipulation of language. In the 1960s, Said encountered the post-structuralist thinkers. They believed that language is essential when trying to explain the social world. Of all the post-structuralists, Said was most influenced by Michel Foucault. Foucault was a French philosopher and political activist. His early work focused on how language shapes reality.

扎卡里·戴维斯：另一个强有力的工具是操纵话语。20世纪60年代，萨义德认识了后结构主义思想家。他们认为，话语在解释社会的过程中非常重要。在所有后结构主义者中，对萨义德影响最大的是米歇尔·福柯。福柯是法国哲学家和政治活动家，他早期的著作探讨了话语如何塑造现实。

Stathis Gourgouris: And Foucault does this, of course, studying, in essence, the history of France. He's not interested in anything outside of France, but he does it in unbelievable detail. And it's very, very important to note, by the way, that in the book, in English translated The Order of Things,which was published in 1966, Foucault talks about some of these figures that Said will also look at in Orientalism, including the numbers of intellectuals who followed Napoleon in the expedition, as it was called “the conquest of Egypt”.

斯塔西斯·古尔古里：福柯的这项研究基本聚焦于法国历史，对法国以外的地方都不感兴趣。不过他的研究详细得叫人难以置信。还有一点我有必要提一下，在1966年出版的《词与物》中，福柯谈到了一些人，包括随拿破仑一起“远征埃及”的知识分子。后来，萨义德在《东方学》中也谈到了这些人。

Stathis Gourgouris: Foucault is interested in these figures because they were the great minds of that era. It's not an accident. And in being the great minds of that era, they shaped culture and education of that era. So, I think that's what's attractive to Said: Foucault’s understanding that knowledge is power and that language is power.

斯塔西斯·古尔古里：福柯对这些人的兴趣绝非偶然。他们是那个时代的伟大人物、伟大的思想家，塑造了那个时代的文化和教育。我觉得，福柯对“知识即权力，话语即权力”的理解，恰恰是萨义德所感兴趣的。

Zachary Davis: Does Said give some examples of how language shapes reality in a way that benefits, you know, the ruling class or something?

扎卡里·戴维斯：萨义德有没有举什么例子来说明，话语如何以有利于统治阶级的方式塑造了现实？

Stathis Gourgouris: I think the simplest way to talk about how language has power is, of course, to think of, you know, racism. Racist language enables the person who articulates it or uses it to feel superior, and it certainly demeans the person who receives it, but also justifies whatever would be the inequity in the relationship, which would include the oppression.

斯塔西斯·古尔古里：要探讨“话语即权力”的话，我觉得最简单的方式是探讨种族主义。种族主义话语让使用这套话语的人感到优越。它贬低了它的接收者，也为种族主义关系中的各种不平等现象、包括种族压迫开脱。

Zachary Davis: European colonizers strategically used language to justify their conquest of the East.

扎卡里·戴维斯：欧洲殖民者颇具战略性地运用话语来美化他们对东方的征服。

Stathis Gourgouris: The French used to use this term mission civilisatrice, which means “civilizing mission,” that the Napoleonic expedition was a civilizing mission. “We're going to go to these Egyptians, and after we map them and understand what they are and how they work, we're going to show them better ways to do things, you know, build better waterways of the Nile, for example, because we have the know-how, the technology and so on.”

斯塔西斯·古尔古里：法国人曾用“文明使命”这个术语将拿破仑远征美化为传播文明的活动。他们说，我们去找到埃及人，为他们绘制地图，了解他们和他们的工作方式。然后，我们会向他们展示如何更好地做事情，比如如何更好地修建尼罗河水道。我们有诀窍和技术。

Zachary Davis: This myth was a big part of how the colonizers justified colonization. They said they were helping the people they were colonizing by bringing them into the modern world in exchange for labor and natural resources. This view puts the colonizers in the dominant position.

扎卡里·戴维斯：这种迷思是殖民者为殖民统治开脱的一个重要方式。他们自称在帮助殖民地民众迈向现代社会，实际上却在掠夺他们的劳动力和自然资源。这种迷思让殖民者处于主导地位。

Stathis Gourgouris: Once you demean the other, once you, you actually articulate in language how the other is beneath you, then justifies all kinds of things from things that might actually make the existence of the other better, even that can be said—but you know, “better” comes a certain cost, by the way—all the way to, of course, annihilating the other.

斯塔西斯·古尔古里：一旦你贬低了对方，用话语阐明对方如何不如你，接下来你便可以为各种事情辩护，甚至说自己能真正改善对方的境况。但你清楚，这种“改善”是有代价的。这样一步一步，你便能摧毁对方。

Stathis Gourgouris: Language is never neutral because human beings are never neutral. We human beings always enact our value judgments. It's impossible not to. We're not machines. We differentiate, we discern. We make distinctions. That's how we understand the world. So nothing is neutral in the human sphere.

斯塔西斯·古尔古里：话语从来不是中立的，因为人类从来不是中立的。人类不是机器，总会不可避免地做出价值判断。我们区分、辨别，加以分类。这就是我们理解世界的方式。人类社会中没有什么是中立的。

Zachary Davis: The first two-thirds of Orientalism focuses on the history of European colonialism and the structures that reinforce the colonialist view of the East. But in the last section of Orientalism, Said talks about Orientalism the academic discipline from the period following World War II up to the present time of writing in the 1970s.

扎卡里·戴维斯：《东方学》的前三分之二探讨了欧洲殖民主义的历史和那些强化了以殖民主义视角看待东方的结构。而在《东方学》的最后一部分，萨义德谈到了从二战后到20世纪70年代东方学这门学科的发展。

Stathis Gourgouris: It's a very, very important part of the book because it updates what is a history of culture, politics and culture in the 19th century. It updates this history in terms of the 20th century in two domains. One is in the way the modern university is created, practically the American University and how area studies fields are created as a result of the post-World War II American domination of the globe.

斯塔西斯·古尔古里：这是这本书非常重要的部分。它不仅重释了19世纪的文化与政治历史，也重释了20世纪两个方面的历史：一是现代大学、尤其是现代美国大学如何建立；二是二战后，随着美国逐渐成为全球主要力量，地区研究这一领域如何建立了起来。

Stathis Gourgouris: So, Orientalism disappears from the masthead, as it were, and is substituted by these more neutral sounding names, you know, Department of Asian Studies, Department of Middle Eastern Studies, and so on, which are these hubs of expert knowledge that is linked directly to political, hegemonic political power, right? So that's actually a very important part of the book that I think opens up Said to the later work that has to do more with the study of imperialism.

斯塔西斯·古尔古里：“东方学”这个名字从刊头消失了，取而代之的是一些听起来比较中性的名字，如“亚洲研究系”、“中东研究系”等等，这些专业研究中心都和政治霸权直接相关。这是这本书非常重要的部分，我觉得它将萨义德引向了后来的研究，这些研究的对象更侧重于帝国主义。

Stathis Gourgouris: The other aspect of the book that is equally important is how, you know, Orientalism is a way of studying the process by which colonialism leads and is part of the history of nationalism in again, two fronts. On the European side, how colonial power breeds nation states, a certain kind of argument about independence, self-determination, freedom, etc. while it denies that to the colonized societies until the 20th century and the great period of decolonization and anticolonial struggle where this European invention, the nation state, is the means by which these societies rebelled against their colonial Orientalist oppressors to liberate themselves and found their own nations. And how the Orientalist elements bleed into these new institutions of independent nations in the so-called—at that point, remember, the word is “third world”—how they bleed into the independent structures of the third world and how in that sense they compromise the, you know, the emancipatory project, the compromise, the real freedom that the national independence movements called for. That second aspect becomes incredibly important for Said from that point on, and his studies turn more towards that.

斯塔西斯·古尔古里：这本书还有一个部分也很重要。东方学既是对殖民主义影响过程的研究，也是对民族主义历史的研究，这同样表现在两个方面上：在欧洲这一方面，它研究了殖民势力如何推动了民族国家的诞生，孕育出独立、自决、自由等理念，而欧洲却如何拒绝将这些理念应用于殖民地。一直到20世纪伟大的去殖民化和反殖民斗争时期，这些欧洲人发明的民族国家理念才被殖民地用来反击殖民者、寻求民族解放、建立自己的国家。而另一方面，它还研究了东方学的元素如何渗入到这些时称“第三世界国家”的新生独立政权的制度之中，又如何继而损害了民族解放运动，损害了它想要实现的真正的自由。从那时起，这一部分的问题对萨义德来说变得异常重要，他的研究也更多地转向了这个方面。

Zachary Davis: What was the immediate reception of this book and how has its interpretation changed?

扎卡里·戴维斯：这本书出版后的反响如何？人们对它的解读发生了哪些变化？

Stathis Gourgouris: It was criticized viciously, from all kinds of sides. Well, it's clearly criticized by the Euro-American Academy because it was an insult, of course, to them and their privileges. But he was criticized in the Arab world. This is very, very significant. The Arab world to a large extent rejected the book because it saw it as—it’s very interesting—mistakenly, as an elite view of an assimilated Arab who knows more about the West than he knows about Arab societies.

斯塔西斯·古尔古里：它遭到了各个群体的猛烈批判。欧美学界批判它，因为它抨击了欧美与欧美的特权。有意思的是，阿拉伯世界也基本不接受这本书。他们误以为这是一个西化的阿拉伯人精英式的的观点，此人对阿拉伯社会的了解程度远不及他对西方世界的了解。

Stathis Gourgouris: And so, and part of that, my interpretation would be it was motivated by, again, if not the inability, the unwillingness to confront the deep ingrained structures of Orientalism in, since we're talking about Arab societies, in the Arab self, in the way that the Arab self, you know, understands itself.

斯塔西斯·古尔古里：我觉得部分原因可能在于，如果不是因为没有能力，那便是他们不愿意面对东方学根深蒂固的结构。就拿我们提到的阿拉伯社会为例。这种结构存在于阿拉伯人的自我之中，存在于他们对本族的理解之中。

Stathis Gourgouris: I understand there's a huge generalization. Arab societies are very different. But nonetheless, you know, the point is that these differences is erased by Orientalism. The point is that there is no difference. All Arabs are the same, right? So that part of it, to the degree that has been sort of incorporated, internalized is the word, you know how that has been underestimated by Arab intellectuals, I think, was part of what motivated the critique.

斯塔西斯·古尔古里：欧美笼统地概括了阿拉伯社会。然而阿拉伯社会内部有很多差异，关键在于，这些差异被东方学抹杀了。东方学直接忽视了这些差异，觉得所有阿拉伯人都一样。这种忽视甚至潜移默化地渗入——准确来说是内化到人们的观念中。阿拉伯知识分子低估了这一点，我觉得这是他们批判这本书的原因之一。

Zachary Davis: Of course, I think a big reason this book continues to be celebrated is it's viewed as the moment of birth of postcolonial studies. So, I'd love to ask you, you know, is that claim true?

扎卡里·戴维斯：当然，我觉得这本书之所以一直这么有名，一个重要的原因在于它被视作后殖民主义研究的开端。我想请教一下您，您觉得这么说对吗？

Stathis Gourgouris: So Orientalism, I don't know if you can say that it created postcolonial studies per se, because postcolonial studies deserves to be credited to anticolonial intellectuals, many of whom were not yet—yet, this is very, very important—in American or British universities.

斯塔西斯·古尔古里：我不确定能不能说《东方学》开辟了后殖民主义研究，因为后殖民主义研究的诞生应当归功于反殖民主义知识分子，而到目前为止他们中的很多人都不在美国或英国的大学——当然，要强调是到目前为止。

Stathis Gourgouris: Now, Said is, of course, as I said in the very, very beginning, part of that anticolonial, you know, group of anticolonial intellectuals. There's no doubt about that in my mind. That has to be… If we leave that out, then we don't understand both his motivation and his makeup. And Said was very, very good about attributing credit to the great figures of the anticolonial culture that I had just mentioned, particularly the Caribbean poets, African thinkers, especially. But, yes, the academy has singled it out as a kind of departure point. And I think that it served that purpose. It served the purpose for establishing a field that very quickly became fashionable. Said—I'm not saying that, Said himself says that.

斯塔西斯·古尔古里：正如我一开始说的，萨义德当然是反殖民主义知识分子的一员。我觉得这点毋庸置疑。忽视了这一点的话，我们就无法理解他的动机和性情。萨义德也常常将学术功劳归于我刚刚提到的反殖民主义的伟大人物，尤其是加勒比地区的诗人和非洲的思想家。学术界已经把反殖民主义确立为一个起点，我觉得它也很好地实现了建立一个热门领域的目的——这不是我说的，而是萨义德说的。

Stathis Gourgouris: You know, near the end of his life, he criticized it with real vehemence. He felt that postcolonial states had become an easy field. You know, a kind of...it's easy to criticize Europe in the end. That's the easiest thing to do. Of course, it's like, look at them. They're racists. You know, they're colonial murderers. I mean, they massacred societies, of course. That's part of their history. That's the easiest thing to do. The hardest thing to do is this kind of self critique that he was asking for the non-Europeans to be doing, the self critique that he was asking the postcolonial thinkers to be doing. So, I think that's very important to relativize the influence and not to think of it, not to reproduce—

斯塔西斯·古尔古里：萨义德晚年激烈地批评了后殖民主义。他觉得这已经成了一个非常容易的领域。到最后，批判欧洲反而成了最容易的事情。比如，你可以说他们是种族主义者，是殖民主义杀人犯。欧洲人确实在殖民地大肆屠杀，这是事实之一。但这样的批判是最容易做的，最难做的是像他要求的那样，让非欧洲国家的人自我批判，让后殖民主义思想家自我批判。所以我觉得，我们既要吸收其影响，又不要想着去复制它，这点很重要。

Stathis Gourgouris: What I'm to say is I don't want to reproduce the kind of conventional idea that Orientalism is a book that launched postcolonial studies, etc., because in some ways it should be the conscience of postcolonial studies. Because it is a book about self-examination. It was part of his own being, of his own coming to terms with himself at a very peculiar and rather accidental sort of moment in history for him.

斯塔西斯·古尔古里：我不想要重复那种传统的观点，说《东方学》是一本开辟了后殖民主义研究的书，等等，因为从某方面看，它应当被视作后殖民主义的良心，而不是开端。它是一本关于自我审视的书，是萨义德自我存在的一部分，是他在一个非常奇特且相当偶然的历史时刻与自我的和解。

Stathis Gourgouris: And if we see Orientalism as a kind of blueprint, you know, that then we just follow and apply, then we will end up in these very, very simplistic notions about otherness and so on and so forth, and then criticize, you know, the easy criticism of the West...as if the West really exists! This is the whole point, that the West does not exist any more than the East does, right?

斯塔西斯·古尔古里：如果我们把《东方学》这本书看作一幅蓝图，只是遵循这张蓝图，最后得出关于他者等各种非常简单的观念，以最简单的方式批判一下西方……这么做仿佛西方真的存在一样。这才是重点。实际上并不存在西方，也不存在东方。

Stathis Gourgouris: So, the influence of the book and I think the, beyond its power of convention will be always that its students, the ones that study it very carefully, will see it as a book of self critique, as a book of examining various structures of identity that block our capacity to understand “the other”, which means block our capacity to understand ourselves. That's part of the same process, right? And in that sense, it’s a critique of nationalism. It's a critique of postcolonial societies. It’s not a rallying cry of postcolonial societies.

斯塔西斯·古尔古里：我觉得这本书的影响不仅仅在于那些仔细研究它的学生所认为的学术贡献。我们还可以把它看作一本关于自我批判的书，一本关于审视各种阻碍我们理解他者身份结构的书。而阻碍我们理解他者也意味着阻碍我们了解自我，这两者是同时存在的。从这个意义上讲，它不是后殖民主义的集结号，反而是对民族主义和后殖民主义群体的批判。

Zachary Davis: When Edward Said wrote Orientalism, he didn’t just challenge colonization. He called into question the West’s entire self-identity. It helped loosen the knot that Orientalism and European colonialism created—a knot we are still untangling today.

扎卡里·戴维斯：爱德华·萨义德的《东方学》不仅仅质疑了殖民主义，还质疑了西方建构的整套自我身份。他松了松东方学和欧洲殖民主义系下的结，这个结如今我们仍在努力解开。

Stathis Gourgouris: It has created a term and an adjective, a term of judgment, that has entered common language. I think that when a book does that, we're talking about a huge magnitude of influence, right? I mean, it's a book that creates a term and that people don't even know where the term came from. You know, that is huge influence.

斯塔西斯·古尔古里：它创造了一个术语和一个形容词。这个用做判断的术语已经成了常用词。我觉得假如一本书做到了这一点，它的影响力显然极为深远。它创造了一个人们甚至不知道从哪儿来的术语，可见其影响力之大。

Zachary Davis: Writ Large is a production of Ximalaya. Writ Large is produced by Jack Pombriant, Liza French, and me, Zachary Davis. Script editing is by Galen Beebe. We get help from Feiran Du, Ariel Liu, and Monica Zhang. Our theme song is by Ian Coss. Don’t miss an episode. Subscribe today in the Ximalaya app. Thanks for listening. See you next time.

扎卡里·戴维斯：本节目由喜马拉雅独家制作播出。感谢您的收听，我们下期再见！