【英文原声版69】Annie Pfeifer: Grimms' Fairy Tales

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Zachary Davis: One of my best childhood memories was visiting my grandmother Greta for Christmas. She lived in northern Utah, and she had the coziest house at the side of Denmark. My favorite thing to do was to sit in the rocking chair by the fireplace and read this book of fairy tales she kept there. The Fisherman and his Wife, The Frog Prince, Little Red Riding Hood, The Bremen Town Musicians—I loved that feeling of being transported to another time and place, a world without school, chores, and cable news.

扎卡里·戴维斯：我最美好的童年记忆之一，便是圣诞节去看我奶奶格蕾塔。她住在犹他州北部，在丹麦河岸有一座天底下最舒服的房子。我最爱做的事就是坐在壁炉旁的摇椅上，看她放在那儿的童话书。书里有《渔夫和他的妻子》、《青蛙王子》、《小红帽》、《不莱梅的城市乐手》。我喜欢穿梭到另一个时空的感觉。在那个世界，没有学校，没有家务，也没有电视新闻。

Zachary Davis: The stories I read at my grandmother's house are hundreds of years old. They began as oral folk tales, passed down and refined from one generation to the next. But they began to take on a new life in the early 19th century when two German brothers named Jacob and Wilhelm Grimm compiled them into a book they called Children’s and Household Tales. “Children” appeared in the book’s title, but the stories the Grimm brothers collected were much darker than the versions we typically hear—or see—today.

扎卡里·戴维斯：我在奶奶家读的这些故事已经流传了几百年。它们最初是民间传说，被一代代的人们口口相传，不断完善。不过到了19世纪初，它们开始焕发新的生命力——一对名叫雅各布·格林和威廉·格林的德国兄弟将它们编入了一本书，起名为《儿童与家庭童话集》。虽然书名中有“儿童”二字，但其实格林兄弟收录的故事比我们今天看到的版本要黑暗得多。

Annie Pfeifer: A lot of the tales, at least as they're collected in this volume, are not really for children. So, I've tried actually, experimentally, to read some of the fairy tales in the Grimms’ collections to my own children, who are four and seven, and found that a lot of them had really scary and objectionable content, so I found myself sort of modifying it for their ears, which is really interesting.

安妮·菲佛：很多故事，至少在这一版中收录的很多故事，其实并不是给孩子们看的。我曾试验过，试着给我四岁和七岁的孩子读几篇这一版的童话，结果发现很多故事的内容都非常可怕，令人反感。为了他们的耳朵着想，我修改了一些内容。这真的很有意思。

Zachary Davis: That’s Annie Pfeifer, a professor of Germanic languages at Columbia University. The Grimms collected hundreds of stories from many different cities, towns, and villages, often modifying the tales before publication to fit their intended audience. The Grimms modified the tales for their collection, Disney modified the tales for their animated versions, and professor Pfeifer modified the tales for her children. This malleability is partly why these stories remain alive.

扎卡里·戴维斯：这位是哥伦比亚大学的日耳曼语教授安妮·菲佛。格林兄弟从许多不同的城市、小镇和村庄收集了数百个故事。在出版之前，他们常常对故事进行修改，来适应他们的目标读者。格林兄弟为他们的童话集修改了内容，迪士尼为他们的动画改编版修改了内容，而菲佛教授也为她的孩子们修改了内容。这种可塑性是这些童话得以流传至今的原因之一。

Annie Pfeifer: I think one of the most interesting things about fairy tales is how they continue to evolve and how they're not stable and they're not definite and they, you know, produce more and more stories. So, it's a kind of, you know, an ongoing, iterative process.

安妮·菲佛：我觉得童话最有趣一个地方在于，你可以看到它们如何演变发展，看到它们是多么不稳定，永远不固定，永远能孕育出越来越多的故事。这是一个持续、反复的过程。

Zachary Davis: Welcome to Writ Large, a podcast about how books change the world. I’m Zachary Davis. In each episode, I talk with one of the world’s leading scholars about one book that changed the course of history. For this episode, I sat down with Professor Annie Pfeifer to discuss Grimms’ Fairy Tales.

扎卡里·戴维斯：欢迎收听：改变你和世界的100书，在这里我们为大家讲述改变世界的书籍。我是扎卡里·戴维斯。每一集，我都会和一位世界顶尖学者讨论一本影响历史进程的书。在本集，我和安妮·菲佛教授一起讨论《格林童话》。

Zachary Davis: Jacob and Wilhelm Grimm were born in 1785 and ‘86 in Hanau, Germany. From their childhood onward, the brothers were very, very close.

扎卡里·戴维斯：雅各布·格林和威廉·格林先后于1785年和1786年出生在德国哈瑙。从童年起，兄弟俩就亲密无间。

Annie Pfeifer: They're inseparable. In fact, I think that they only spent a few days apart in their entire lives. So, they even—it was a big problem when one of them got married, because it became a kind of more like a relationship between the three of them. From all accounts that I've heard, you know, they, the wife had to sort of accommodate their relationship. So, she was almost like a third wheel in their brotherly relationship. So, there’s all sorts of jokes.

安妮·菲佛：他俩密不可分。其实我觉得他俩一辈子只分开过几天。当他们中的一个人结了婚，问题就变得棘手了，因为仿佛是三个人生活在了一起。从我了解到的记载上看，威廉的妻子不得不适应兄弟俩的关系，几乎成了这俩人的电灯泡。三人间发生了着各种各样有意思的事。

Zachary Davis: They were two brothers in a family of nine children. They had a difficult childhood.

扎卡里·戴维斯：雅各布和威廉是九个孩子中的俩兄弟。他们小时候过得很艰辛。

Annie Pfeifer: They lost their father at a fairly young age, but what was mostly, sort of the aftermath of, you know, losing their father at a young age is that their position became increasingly precarious in society. Their mother was supporting, you know, a fairly large family of children.

安妮·菲佛：他们童年的时候就失去了父亲，这让他们的社会地位越来越不稳定。他们的母亲抚养着一大家子的孩子。

Zachary Davis: Because money was tight, the brothers’ aunt paid for them to study at the Friedrichsgymnasium school in Kassel, in present-day Germany. They each graduated at the top of their class. After high school, they attended the University of Marburg. But despite their academic success, they were often looked down upon because of their lower social class.

扎卡里·戴维斯：由于家里缺钱，兄弟俩的姑姑出钱让他们在如今德国卡塞尔的弗里德里希文科中学上学。他们都以班级第一名的成绩毕业了。高中毕业后，他们去马尔堡大学学习。尽管他们学业成绩不错，但由于社会地位较低，常常被人看不起。

Annie Pfeifer: So, they were very reliant on, you know, the support of scholars that they met at the university, including a legal scholar who ultimately ended up sort of, you know, changing their career and putting them in touch with Clemens Brentano, who was the sort of the originator of this fairy tale collecting book.

安妮·菲佛：他们很大程度上依靠着在大学里遇到的学者们来支持他们。其中一位学者是研究法律的，他改变了格林兄弟的职业生涯，让他们联系到了童话故事集的鼻祖克莱门斯·布伦塔诺。

Zachary Davis: Clemens Brentano was a German novelist and poet who, along with fellow poet Achim von Arnim, wanted to collect and publish folk tales.

扎卡里·戴维斯：克莱门斯·布伦塔诺是一位德国小说家兼诗人，他和同为诗人的阿希姆·冯·阿尔尼姆想要收集并出版民间故事。

Annie Pfeifer: This was a moment in time where people were really interested in sort of literature from all areas of society. So not just sort of the highbrow literature of the Enlightenment, but it was literature that was told by the folk, right? So, you have a real interest in collecting not only folk tales, but also songs, ballads, you know, poems that perhaps were at some point an oral form. And there's a real attempt to capture culture not just at the highest sort of most educated elite levels of society.

安妮·菲佛：在那个时代，人们对社会各个领域的文学作品都很感兴趣，不仅乐于了解启蒙运动中那些高雅的文学，也想要了解民间口述的文学，很乐于去收集民间故事、歌曲、民谣和一些口口相传的诗歌。人们努力捕捉的不限于受过良好教育的社会精英阶层所缔造的高雅文化。

Zachary Davis: This wasn’t just an academic pursuit. It was also an act of preservation. The industrial revolution was rapidly changing the European economy and way of life. Many forms of traditional culture were disappearing. These scholars wanted to preserve German culture before industrialization wiped it out completely.

扎卡里·戴维斯：这不仅仅是一种学术追求，也是对文化的保存。当时，工业革命正在迅速改变欧洲的经济和生活方式，许多传统的文化形式正在消失。这些学者希望赶在工业化彻底消灭传统文化之前，将德国文化保留下来。

Zachary Davis: For this project, Brentano enlisted the help of the Grimm brothers. The Grimm brothers published the first edition of their collection of folk tales in 1812. It contained 86 individual stories. Over the next 50 years, the number of stories continued to grow, and the audience evolved.

扎卡里·戴维斯：为了做好这个文化保护项目，布伦塔诺找来了格林兄弟帮忙。格林兄弟在1812年出版了他们的第一版民间故事集。它包含了八十六个独立的故事。在接下来的五十年里，故事的数量不断增加，读者也越来越多。

Annie Pfeifer: The collection grew to almost 200 tales. And with each addition, you see significant changes happening. And so one of the things the Grimms did was they increasingly sought to sort of make them for children, right? So, initially it had been a project that was largely scholarly, that was oriented towards, you know, collecting culture and making sure that, you know, as the industrial revolution is in its full form, that, you know, the cultures and traditions of the people, the folk, are being preserved, right, in a moment where a lot of this is under threat, but then as the, you know, project grew and grew, they realized there was a real audience for these tales.

安妮·菲佛：这套童话集渐渐囊括了近两百个故事。每增加一个故事，你就会看到重大的变化。格林兄弟做的其中一件事是慢慢把它们改编成儿童读物。起初这只是一个学术性的项目，目的是在传统文化遭遇威胁的情况下收集民间故事，把它们完好无缺地保存下来，免受工业革命的破坏。然而随着项目的扩展，格林兄弟意识到这些故事确实有一批读者。

Annie Pfeifer: So, that project in itself is kind of interesting, that it started as a folklore collection and ultimately became a kind of, almost a pedagogical reference for German school children in, you know, 19th century Germany.

安妮·菲佛：这个项目本身很有意思。它一开始是只是为了收集民间传说，最终却成了19世纪德国学校儿童的教育读物。

Zachary Davis: As the Grimm brothers geared these tales towards a younger audience, they adapted certain aspects to make them more child-friendly. In these adaptations, the brothers drew inspiration from their own lives. The Grimm brothers spent much of their lives in the German town of Kassel. When they were in their early 20s, Napoleon Bonaparte was on a rampage across Europe, conquering much of the continent.

扎卡里·戴维斯：当格林兄弟考虑到年轻读者对故事集的需求时，他们对故事的某些方面进行了改编，让它们更适合儿童。改编时，兄弟俩从自己的生活中汲取了灵感。格林兄弟的大部分时间都在德国卡塞尔度过。在他们二十来岁的时候，拿破仑·波拿巴正在欧洲四处征伐，征服了欧洲大陆的大部分地区。

Annie Pfeifer: And so they're writing in Germany at a time where the French are sort of occupying their town. And so I think this gives their idea of what a fairy tale is and their kind of notion of what German culture meant to them, a special kind of significance, in part because the notion of Germany itself was so precarious.

安妮·菲佛：他们在德国写作的时候，法国人似乎正在占领他们的小镇。我觉得这段经历让他们意识到什么是童话，认识到德国文化对他们来说意味着什么，看到了它特殊的重要性。之所以会这样，部分是因为德国处在风雨飘摇之中。

Zachary Davis: This precarity is woven into the fairy tales. Many of the stories involve children getting lost or abandoned in the woods, left to fend for themselves in a magical and dangerous world. In addition to this national precarity, the brothers’ personal lives were plagued by uncertainty.

扎卡里·戴维斯：这种飘摇感渗入到了童话里。许多故事都提到了孩子们在森林里迷了路，或是被遗弃在森林里，在一个神奇而危险的世界里自生自灭。除了整个国家的飘摇感，兄弟俩的个人生活也总是陷入不稳定的境地。

Annie Pfeifer: So, they, I think, you know, they did feel quite precarious growing up, you know, caught between social classes, you know, threatened with the prospect of losing, you know, the kind of family name that they had after their father passed away. And then there was also, you know, the Napoleonic forces that were occupying Kassel at the time. I think it all created a sort of condition of precarity, which you really do see, I think, reflected in a lot of tales.

安妮·菲佛：在成长过程中，他们确实心生飘摇之感。他们处在社会阶层的夹缝中，在父亲去世后常常担心家族姓氏会被抹去，同时拿破仑的军队还占领了卡塞尔。这一切都营造出一股飘摇的氛围，而这种氛围也常常反映在许多故事中。

Annie Pfeifer: I mean, one of the things that I keep coming back to is just how difficult childhood is for all these young protagonists in fairy tales. There's not one child that seems to have a good childhood. They're all very difficult. They all lose parents or, you know, are threatened by sort of evil step parents. You know, they're abandoned in the forest like Hansel and Gretel. I mean, yeah, I'd be pressed to find an example of a happy child in the Grimms’ Fairy Tales.

安妮·菲佛：我一直在回想，对于这些童话故事中的小主人公来说，童年是多么艰难。似乎没有哪个孩子有过美好的童年。他们过得都很苦，要么失去了父母，要么被邪恶的继父继母威胁，就像《糖果屋》里被遗弃在森林里的汉森和格雷特兄妹。为了在格林童话里找到哪怕一个快乐的孩子，我真的费了九牛二虎之力。

Zachary Davis: Because fairy tales for children was a relatively new genre at the time, the stories tended to take shape by falling into a couple different categories.

扎卡里·戴维斯：童话在当时是一种相对较新的体裁，童话的出现往往分为几种不同类型。

Annie Pfeifer: I would say there's two kinds of fairy tales that are being produced in this period. And people usually differentiate between an oral fairy tale, which is called volksmärchen, and a literary fairy tale, or a kunstmärchen. The folk fairy tale is really supposed to be the product of oral folklore. It's, you know, collected by people who have been in touch with storytellers, right? This is the product of an oral tradition.

安妮·菲佛：这个时期出现的童话有两类。人们一般这么区分：一类是口头的童话，一类是文学童话。民间童话应该是口头民间传说的产物。一些人会接触讲故事的人，把这些故事收集起来。这是随口头文化传统而来的。

Zachary Davis: These folk tales were what the Grimm brothers and Clemens Brentano were collecting.

扎卡里·戴维斯：格林兄弟和克莱门斯·布伦塔诺收集的便是这类民间故事。

Annie Pfeifer: The literary fairy tale, or the kunstmärchen would be something that was created for the page. And so, you know what an example of that would be, like, The Little Mermaid by Hans Christian Andersen, who lived, you know, a few decades later in Denmark, was one of the sort of famous creators of a lot of fairy tales.

安妮·菲佛：文学童话是创作在纸上的。一个典型的例子就是《海的女儿》，是由晚格林兄弟几十年的丹麦作家汉斯·克里斯汀·安徒生创作的，他创作了包括这篇在内的许多不朽童话。

Zachary Davis: The Grimm brothers were collecting existing, spoken folk tales, and Andersen was writing new stories for the page. But both of these traditions were born out of the Romantic movement.

扎卡里·戴维斯：格林兄弟收集了当时留存下来的民间故事，而安徒生则是在纸上创作新的故事。不过这两种编写童话的方式都诞生于浪漫主义运动之中。

Annie Pfeifer: So, the Romanticism is really a kind of movement, also, against the Enlightenment, which is the movement that preceded it immediately where there was a real emphasis on rationality and reason. Everything was, you know, understood and elucidated. You know, science became the, kind of the important, sort of, discipline that all other disciplines oriented themselves by. And Romanticism was really a shift away from that idea, right?

安妮·菲佛：浪漫主义运动紧接着启蒙运动之后发生。它反对启蒙运动。启蒙运动强调理智与理性，所有东西都被阐释或解读，科学跃居于其他学科之上，成为了其他学科的风向标。而浪漫主义想要转变这个观念。

Annie Pfeifer: So, there was an interest not simply in high culture, but an interest in, you know, what others were saying with the folk—the word “folklore” comes from “folk,” which is the people. So, this is, you know, a movement that's interested in, you know, large parts of society that had been excluded from the Enlightenment. So, these are, you know, the everyday people, the illiterate people, the peasants, and specifically, you know, a class who was often left out of the Enlightenment was women who were, you know, largely excluded from education and the Enlightenment. And so this was an interest in their culture as well.

安妮·菲佛：于是人们不仅关心起了高雅文化，还关心起了民众的文化。“民间故事”的“民”就是“民众”的“民”。浪漫主义运动关心着被启蒙运动排斥在外的大片社会文化。缔造这些文化的都是日常生活中的人们，是文盲，是农民，尤其还包括了被启蒙运动排斥在外的女性群体。不管是在教育还是在启蒙运动中，这些女性都没有一席之地。而浪漫主义运动却乐于发扬这些人的文化。

Zachary Davis: Folklore was often considered a female pursuit, a kind of narrative “women’s work”.

扎卡里·戴维斯：民间故事常常被认为是女性特有的消遣方式，是一种女性特有的叙事作品。

Annie Pfeifer: There is a constant, sort of, connection between, sort of, female storytelling and the domestic arts—you know, spinning, weaving—has also been sort of connected that, you know, many of these stories were told as women were sort of knitting or weaving together, and they would tell stories to sort of pass the time.

安妮·菲佛：长久以来，做家务和女性讲故事之间一直有着某种联系。女性们聚在一起，一边纺纱织布、缝制衣裳，一边讲故事打发时间。

Zachary Davis: For these women, telling stories was a form of entertainment. The Grimm brothers wanted to capture that entertainment as well, so many of the stories contain elements of magic and the supernatural from mythic, medieval times.

扎卡里·戴维斯：讲故事是一种娱乐方式。格林兄弟也想捕捉这种娱乐方式。很多故事都包含了神秘的中世纪时期一些魔法元素和超自然元素。

Annie Pfeifer: In all tales, there's this kind of aspect that you're looking back on a past that you know, occurred or something. So, it's always a kind of nostalgic, kind of retrospective perspective in all these fairy tales.

安妮·菲佛：所有的童话都在回忆过去发生的事情，都有着怀旧的、追忆往昔的视角。

Zachary Davis: This was a common element in Romanticism—a kind of wistful reminiscence of the past. Another element of the Romantic movement was the connection to emotion. The Enlightenment celebrated science and rationality, but Romanticism emphasized things that were felt and not measurable by science.

扎卡里·戴维斯：对过去的伤感追忆是浪漫主义作品的共同元素。浪漫主义的另一个元素是对情感的重视。启蒙运动颂扬科学和理性，而浪漫主义强调的是那些可以感知、却无法用科学衡量的东西。

Annie Pfeifer: It was emotion. It was feeling. It was subjectivity. It was the irrational. These were all aspects that in some way had been kind of kept out of the cultural discourse in the Enlightenment, and this became an important feature of what we think of now as kind of the German Romantic movement, which was largely also transnational. I mean, you see it in England, you know, with Wordsworth and, and poets—Coleridge—so you see it throughout Europe at this time and also in the U.S.

安妮·菲佛：情绪、情感、主观、非理性——这些都在启蒙运动中以某种方式被排除在文化话语之外，却是我们如今所认为的德国浪漫主义运动的一个重要特征。这个特征在很大程度上也不仅仅出现在德国。你在英国可以看到它，比如在诗人华兹华斯和柯勒律治的作品中就能看到，甚至在当时的整个欧洲乃至美国都能看到它。

Zachary Davis: It's interesting to me that they were, even in, you know, the 19th century, already pining for this moment when the world seemed a bit more, more magical.

扎卡里·戴维斯：我觉得有意思的是，甚至在19世纪的时候，他们就已经怀念起那个更奇妙多彩的时代了。

Annie Pfeifer: I think it's like a reaction also to the Industrial Revolution, which was happening at this time, right, a move to the cities. So, I think it coincides with this real kind of shift, you know, in the early 19th century from, you know, kind of rural pastoral life to sort of big cities. This is when, you know, technology is about to change dramatically, and I think there is a real interest in preserving the aspects of culture that are threatened by this move to the city, this kind of industrialization.

安妮·菲佛：我觉得这像是对工业革命的回应。工业革命也发生在这个时候，对吧，社会生活的重心开始向城市转移。我觉得浪漫主义运动和这种转移是同时发生的。在19世纪早期，城市生活开始取代乡村田园生活，技术即将迅猛发展。面对着城市化、工业化的威胁，人们萌生出想要保存多种文化的念头。

Zachary Davis: A lot of the stories that the Grimms were collecting came from peasants and farmers who lived outside the city and worked the land for a living.

扎卡里·戴维斯：格林兄弟收集的很多故事都是从住在城市之外、以耕种为生的农民那儿得来的。

Annie Pfeifer: They're very rural. They're very pastoral, right? Think of, you know, even Snow White, you know, and Little Red Riding Hood, right? It’s, your...The key motif in so many of these fairy tales is the forest, right? So, it's kind of...it's also an early interest in naturalism and sort of ecological life.

安妮·菲佛：这些故事有着浓厚的乡村田园气息。回想一下《白雪公主》、《小红帽》等等，许多童话的关键元素都是森林。所以也可以说，这体现了早期人们对自然主义和自然生态的兴趣。

Annie Pfeifer: What's deeply interesting in fairy tales is that  so often nature is the force of good, right? Very few times do you see nature sort of not being good. You see almost always a kind of a love for nature and a belief in the healing and sort of virtue of the natural world, which you see really reflected in these tales where, like, you see animals saving people or, you know, the birds play an important role in fairy tales. They often come to the help of these protagonists.

安妮·菲佛：这些童话还有一点很有意思。很多时候，自然总代表着善的力量。你很少看到自然以不善的面孔出现，总能看到对自然的爱和对自然界治愈力量与美好特质的信念。这种情感时常反映在故事中，比如你会看到动物救人。鸟儿也在童话中扮演着重要的角色，经常帮助主角。

Zachary Davis: What do we know about how these stories were composed and shared?

扎卡里·戴维斯：这些故事是如何创作、传播的呢？

Annie Pfeifer: You know, especially when we think of books, we always sort of think of...We have a real interest in what the original tale was or what the original story is like. But with stories, with oral folklore, there is no original, right? You can't point back and say, “Oh, this is the first occasion that the story was told.” And so the stories themselves are constantly evolving. There's no definite or sort of “real” or “authentic” version of a story, right?

安妮·菲佛：当我们想到这些书的时候，我们总会好奇原始版本是什么样的。但是对于口口相传的民间故事来说，没有原始版本这一说，对吧。你没法回过头一看，发现“哦，这就是第一次讲这个故事的场合。”民间故事是在不断发展的，不存在什么明确的“正宗版本”。

Annie Pfeifer: So, you can point back and say, well, there were different versions circulating of, you know, Little Red Riding Hood, but the fact that they’re oral makes them so malleable, right? So, you know, the idea was that a storyteller would take something like, you know, a folkloric motif like Little Red Riding Hood and perhaps infuse it with local detail, right? Instead of a forest, he might say or she might say, you know, it's a local forest. You know, if you are setting it in New York, you would say, you know, Central Park or something. You would, you would add local detail to make it relatable to the audience.

安妮·菲佛：你可以回过头说，好吧，《小红帽》这些故事有不同的版本流传。但也正因为是口述的，这些故事的可塑性才很强。讲故事的人可以以《小红帽》这些民间故事为主体，加入一些当地的元素。比如可以把故事里的森林替换成当地的森林。假如你把故事背景设置在纽约，或许你可以把森林改成中央公园之类的地方。加一些当地元素，听众们会觉得很亲切。

Zachary Davis: And these audiences included adults.

扎卡里·戴维斯：这些听众也包括成年人。

Annie Pfeifer: We think of them now as stories told to children, but especially when you think about the way these stories, you know, were often circulated, you can see that they could have also been easily told by adults for adult entertainment. And when you look back at earlier versions of Little Red Riding Hood, she's actually, she's like performing a striptease for the wolf and then ends up tricking him and sort of locking him into the house and running away, through a striptease. But obviously, this would not be a very good version to children, so you can see why the Grimms kind of edited out these details.

安妮·菲佛：如今我们把《格林童话》看作讲给孩子们听的故事。但如果你想一想这些故事是怎么流传开来的，你会发现它们也会被讲给成年人听，供他们消遣。当你回顾早期版本的《小红帽》，你会发现讲的其实是小红帽给大灰狼跳脱衣舞，通过这种方式来骗大灰狼，把它反锁在屋子里，借机逃走。但显然，这个版本对孩子来说不太好，所以格林兄弟把这些细节都删掉了。

Annie Pfeifer: But, yeah, it's a really rich tradition. And, you know, it's very polyphonic. So, you know, it's hard to sort of say how these tales kind of originated, but you can certainly trace them all over. I mean, there have been versions of Cinderella that have been traced to China, right? So we can see that these tales are transnational. There's nothing specifically even German about a lot of them, right? Of course, the Grimms collected them, but in fact, that they're far more sort of transnational than this kind of marketing would have sort of suggested.

安妮·菲佛：没错，民间故事这种传统非常丰富，有来自世界各地的各种声音。你很难说这些故事是如何起源的，但你确实可以从各个地方追踪到它们的源头。有些版本的《灰姑娘》已经追溯到中国去了。我们可以看到，这些故事并不是德国所独有的，很多故事都没有什么鲜明的德国特色。当然收集这些故事的是德国的格林兄弟，故事集在宣传时给人感觉也像是德国的，但其中的故事其实也流传在其他国家。

Zachary Davis: Let's talk about the stories themselves now. What are some of them that you think are most interesting to consider?

扎卡里·戴维斯：我们现在来谈谈这些故事吧。您觉得故事的哪些地方最有意思？

Annie Pfeifer: I mean, all the greatest hits are there, right? You know, a lot of the tales that we've sort of grown up listening to: Snow White, Little Red Riding Hood, Briar Rose, The Frog Prince. But one of the really deeply interesting things, I think, about the stories, especially when you look at the kind of versions, is that you see really how they changed and some of the kind of remarkable changes that were made, in fact even by the Grimms themselves, to try to make them a bit more sanitized. So, we think of Grimms’ as being sort of particularly kind of violent and crass, but, you know, already they had significantly sanitized the tales.

安妮·菲佛：所有这些家喻户晓的童话都在集子里面，有很多是我们听着长大的，比如《白雪公主》、《小红帽》、《睡美人》和《青蛙王子》。我觉得这些故事有个特别有意思的地方，那就是当你看到不同的版本时，你可以看到它们是如何变化的。为了让内容更健康一点，出现了一些特别明显的变化，有些甚至出自格林兄弟之手。所以，虽然格林兄弟那一版的故事还有一些暴力、粗俗的元素，但那已经是大幅净化后的结果了。

Annie Pfeifer: To, just to give one example, in sort of an earlier version of Snow White, in the kind of earliest versions of, in the Grimms’, it had been the mother who was sort of threatened by her daughter and wanted to abandon her in the forest. And the Grimms were like, “Wait a second, that does not really work. We can't have a mother abandoning her child.” So they turned it into a stepmother. Same with Hansel and Gretel in an earlier version of Hansel and Gretel, it was the mother that wanted to abandon the children because of, you know, famine. But the Grimms realized that that wouldn't really work, so it became a stepmother.

安妮·菲佛：举个例子吧。在早期版本的《白雪公主》里，也就是格林兄弟最早的一版里，感受到白雪公主的威胁、把她丢在森林里的是她的亲生母亲。格林兄弟看了之后觉得：“等等，这样可行不通，我们不能让亲生母亲把孩子丢掉。”于是他们把生母改成了继母。《糖果屋》也一样。在早期版本里，将兄妹二人抛弃的是亲生母亲，但格林兄弟意识到这样行不通，就把这个角色改成了继母。

Annie Pfeifer: And so, yeah, you see these tales where you're like, “Oh, I know Briar Rose or I know The Frog Prince.” But actually the way it's told in the Grimms’ is quite different. Another interesting difference is that in one of the versions of The Frog Prince in the Grimms’, she is, the princess is so disgusted by the frog that she throws him against the wall and then he becomes a prince. So, it's not a kiss, which you think of in the kind of Disney version, right, it has to be a kiss that sort of wakes up or kind of summons him out of his spell. But no, it's an act of just complete frustration, taking the frog and throwing him against the wall.

安妮·菲佛：当你看到这些故事的时候，会心想：“嗯，我知道《睡美人》或《青蛙王子》讲了什么。”但其实格林兄弟那一版的内容完全不同。还有个很有意思的例子是，在格林兄弟某一版的《青蛙王子》里，公主实在太讨厌青蛙了，就把它扔到了墙上，没想到它变成了王子。所以不是迪士尼动画里面的吻或什么解除咒语的浪漫方法把王子变回来了，让他变回来的仅仅是一个气急败坏的举动——抓起青蛙，把它扔到墙上。

Zachary Davis: Before the Grimm brothers adapted these tales for children, there was very little literature specifically for kids.

扎卡里·戴维斯：在格林兄弟将这些故事改编成童话之前，很少有专门面向儿童的文学。

Annie Pfeifer: Obviously children had been around for a long time, but the idea of childhood and that there would be a specific market for children's books was very new. And the Grimms, I think to their credit, were the first to realize that perhaps children weren't just kind of using the same material as their, you know, their parents, but perhaps had their own sort of repository of tales and sort of culture at their fingertips.

安妮·菲佛：显然儿童这个群体很早就有了，但童年这个概念还很新，专门撰写儿童读物、将儿童作为特定读者的想法也很新。我觉得格林兄弟的一大功劳是，他们首次意识到，或许孩子们不应该读和父母一样的内容，也许他们需要接触属于他们这个群体的故事与文化。

Annie Pfeifer: And so they really were one of the first to kind of market literature specifically for children. And this kind of produced a whole genre of children's literature, which until then, at this point, had been virtually unknown and certainly wouldn't have been, you know, within kind of the purview of publishers. Maybe if you had a, you know, a book would never have been sort of widespread or circulated beyond a kind of intimate audience.

安妮·菲佛：他们确实创造了最早一本专门面向儿童的大众文学，催生出了儿童文学这个类别。在此之前，儿童文学几乎不为人所知，也没有进入出版商的视线。即使有，也只是身边几个小听众听一听，不会大规模地传播。

Annie Pfeifer: So, the idea that your mass-producing books for children was itself a very new thing. So, in large part, I would say also the Grimms were responsible for creating the kind of genre of children's literature and popularizing it and making it something, you know, that people took seriously.

安妮·菲佛：大规模印刷儿童书籍的想法非常新鲜。我觉得格林兄弟在很大程度上开创了儿童文学这个类别，把它大众化，让人们开始认真看待它。

Zachary Davis: So, the purpose of these tales, you know, surely was at some level just to simply entertain—the delight of the story. But were there also morals embedded in them?

扎卡里·戴维斯：我们来谈谈这些故事的目的吧。当然它们在某种程度上只是单纯为了娱乐，这就是故事的乐趣所在。不过这些故事是否也含有道德意味呢？

Annie Pfeifer: I do think that there are morals. You know, a lot of them do have, sort of, clear moral, kind of, guidelines. One thing that the Grimms really did is they Christianized a lot of the tales, so they really kind of added Christian imagery. You know, they put a lot of, sort of, Christian symbolism into the tales so it would sort of make more sense along a kind of moral register. And there was a clearer division between good and evil, right? You don't have a lot of, sort of, nuanced characters. Most characters are either really good or really bad.

安妮·菲佛：我觉得是有的。其中的很多角色确实有明确的道德准则。格林兄弟把很多故事都基督教化了，添加了基督教的意象和象征手法，好让故事在道德层面更讲得通。故事里善恶之间往往是泾渭分明的，没有什么有着复杂多元的角色，多数角色非善即恶。

Annie Pfeifer: You know, if you're marketing something for children, you know, moral nuance is kind of hard to explain, right? So, you have to make it almost sort of more cut and dry, so that's why a lot of these, kind of, heroes are diametrically opposed to the, kind of, villains. And you kind of have this binary split in so many fairy tales. But that is actually a byproduct very much of the Grimms’ editing. If you look at earlier versions, you have much more sort of, you know, kind of sort of ambivalent characters who are not necessarily all good or bad.

安妮·菲佛：如果你是在向孩子宣传道德，那些复杂多元的角色是很难解释的，你必须把他们变得更简单明了。这就是为什么很多英雄和反派都是截然相反的、二元对立的。不过这也是《格林童话》修改后的副产品。如果你看一看早期的版本，会发现里面有很多略显些矛盾的人物，他们不是纯粹的好人，也不是纯粹的坏人。

Zachary Davis: How popular was this collection?

扎卡里·戴维斯：《格林童话》有多受欢迎？

Annie Pfeifer: It's hard to overstate how popular they were and how widely circulated these tales were. I mean, one of my students, you know, she grew up in Saudi Arabia. And she said, “Oh, I grew up reading these tales in Saudi Arabia, the Grimms’ tales. And this is how I first understood about, you know, what fairy tales actually mean.” And, you know, in some ways, I think that's actually the case, that these tales were circulated all over Europe, certainly, and all over the world.

安妮·菲佛：我们再怎么说它多受欢迎、多广为流传，都毫不为过。我有一个学生是在沙特阿拉伯长大的。她说：“我在沙特就是读着《格林故事》长大的，它让我第一次了解到童话意味着什么。”我觉得在某些方面事情其实是这样的：这些故事在欧洲各地、乃至世界各地流传。

Annie Pfeifer: And I think that, you know, they influenced, obviously, an interest, as I mentioned before, in children's literature. But they also created an interest in sort of fairy tales, the whole genre of fairy tales. That it was something that could be literary, right? Think of Hans Christian Andersen. I mean, he wrote beautiful tales for, for children, and he spent so much time, you know, investing in stories that were told for children. This would never have happened 100 years earlier, right? The fact that somebody could make a livelihood from telling stories and writing down stories for children was something I think, that was deeply influenced by the Grimms.

安妮·菲佛：而且就像我之前提到的，它们引发了人们对儿童文学以及童话这个新兴文学类型的兴趣。童话也可以是文学，对吧。想想汉斯·克里斯汀·安徒生。他花了这么多时间，为儿童写了这么多美丽的故事，讲给他们听。往前推一百年，这样的事绝不可能发生。有人可以靠给孩子们讲故事、写故事来谋生，这种事其实深受格林兄弟的影响。

Zachary Davis: The Grimms’ collection of fairy tales became so popular and so influential that different movements around the world appropriated them to fit their needs—for better or worse.

扎卡里·戴维斯：《格林童话》变得如此流行、如此有影响力，世界各地的许多运动都运用它来满足自己的需求——这些需求有好有坏。

Annie Pfeifer: Fairy tales are very malleable, right? So they can be used for good or bad. So, one of the really interesting things is there's kind of utopic retellings of fairy tales that were used by socialist revolutionaries in the early 20th century to talk about how, you know, fairy tales should promote the transformation of social classes, right? So, you can see how that could be, how that reading could be elicited by fairy tales, right? The rags to rich stories are so, kind of, evocative.

安妮·菲佛：童话的可塑性很强，可以被用于好的方面或坏的方面。有个非常有意思的事情是，童话被改变成一种乌托邦式的故事，在20世纪初被社会主义革命者用来宣传。童话要如何推动社会阶层的变革呢？在这种情况下你就能知道它是如何推动的、人们如何借童话的外衣来宣传这些思想。对童话的重构很能感染读者。

Annie Pfeifer: But the darker side is the way that they've been appropriated by nationalist movements, such as, you know, the Nazi party in particular. There was a real interest in, kind of, screening fairy tales. So, there's a lot of movies that were made in the ‘30s that had fairy tale motifs and that were retold kind of from an anti-Semitic perspective. So, there's this one terrible version of Little Red Riding Hood where the wolf is characterized as the kind of, you know, the Jewish outsider. Little Red Riding Hood has swastikas on her cape. And so, you know, the symbolism is obviously, you know, very overt.

安妮·菲佛：但更黑暗的一面是，它们被民族主义运动加以利用，最典型的就是纳粹党。他们很喜欢拍摄童话。有很多20世纪30年代拍摄的电影都是童话，但是从反犹太主义的角度改编的。在一个很可怕的版本的《小红帽》中，大灰狼被刻画成了所谓的犹太“外来人”，而小红帽的斗篷上面有纳粹标志。其象征意义不言自明。

Annie Pfeifer: Some are less, kind of over-determined. But you really have an interest in German folklore in the ‘30s, in retelling these stories to kind of promote German nationalism and to sort of suggest that these tales are German, when in fact, they're not, right? As we discussed earlier, they are transnational. A lot of them are French. A lot of them have foreign elements in them that are anything but German. So the idea that the German nationalist movement, like National Socialism, would use these tales for Nazi propaganda is particularly ironic given how heterogeneous and sort of widespread they were.

安妮·菲佛：有些电影则没有那么明显。但30年代的德国确实对本土民间传说非常感兴趣，想要以重述传说的方式推动国内民族主义的发展，同时暗示观众这些故事都是德国的。然而事实并非如此，对吧。就像我们之前说的，它们不是德国所独有的。很多是法国的，很多甚至有各种外国元素，却唯独没有德国元素。在了解到这些故事的异质元素和传播之广之后，一想到德国的民族主义运动（如社会民族主义运动）如何用这些童话宣传纳粹思想，就不免觉得颇有讽刺意味。

Zachary Davis: Although the fairy tales were already widely known, the Nazis were able to use them to spread their own specific agenda. As a result, fairy tales were taken out of the education system, and the public took a break from them.

扎卡里·戴维斯：虽然《格林童话》已经广为人知，但纳粹却能利用它宣传自己的思想。此事的结果便是，童话故事从教育系统中被剔除，大众对童话的关注也暂停了。

Annie Pfeifer: There was a real shift away from fairy tales in the post-war period because they were seen as too entrenched in German nationalism. And so I think that shows the kind of way in which they were misused by nationalism and by nationalist movements. And so part of what I try to teach students is that, you know, these tales are much more, much more multifarious than this kind of reading would suggest and to think about them as kind of multinational, transnational constructs rather than being anything German, anything specifically German. Of course, you know, these were the German brothers who happened to collect them and transcribe them, but, you know, the tales were much more far-reaching than than that origin would suggest.

安妮·菲佛：二战之后，人们的注意力确实从《格林童话》上转移了出去。人们觉得它渗入了太多德国民族主义的东西。这表明童话如何被民族主义和民族主义运动所滥用。所以我在教学的时候，会努力告诉学生这些童话多么多元，是多国元素混合的产物，而不是像有些说法那样，将《格林童话》仅仅看作德国的东西。当然，它们的确是两个德国兄弟收集、记录的，但你要知道，它们的渊源比某些人暗示的要深远得多。

Zachary Davis: So, what is the post World War II story of fairy tales and stories? How are they still with us all the way to the present?

扎卡里·戴维斯：二战后《格林童话》的发展如何？它们是如何一直陪伴我们到现在的？

Annie Pfeifer: I think you don't really have to look too much further than probably Disney to see how, you know, how salient these tales are today. In fact, Disney gives us the kind of image of a fairy tale that, you know, then informs our reading of the Grimms, right? A lot of these tales are quite different than the, kind of, Disney versions. But in some ways, the Disney, you know, the Disneyfication is not really, not so different from the Grimmification of fairy tales, right? These were also fairy tales that were then repackaged and co-modified for a kind of audience. And so, in some ways, the Grimms kind of did what Disney would do much later, right, in making something popular and finding ways to kind of disseminate these tales to a wider audience.

安妮·菲佛：其实不用看太远，我们看看迪士尼，或许就知道这些童话如今多么重要。其实，迪士尼塑造的角色形象影响了我们对《格林童话》的解读。迪士尼版的内容和原版的区别很大。但从某些方面看，迪士尼的改编和格林兄弟的改编并没有什么不同，也是面向观众对童话进行的改造和二次包装。所以从某些方面看，格林兄弟做了后来迪士尼做的事情——让故事流行起来，想办法将它们传播给更多人。

Annie Pfeifer: So, I do think that the post-war tradition has a lot of, kind of, has a lot of influence still today. But I also think that there's consistently, you know, efforts to rethink tales, which to me are really interesting, right? You know, one tale we're looking at actually for this week is called Cinderella is Dead, and it's told from a, sort of, queer perspective and it talks about how the real desire is between two female characters rather than a prince.

安妮·菲佛：我确实觉得，二战后的传统对今天仍然有着诸多影响。但我也觉得，人们不断改编故事，这个事情本身就很有意思。我们这周正在看一本书，叫《灰姑娘死了》。故事的叙述角度有些同性之爱的色彩，讲述了两个女性角色之间的感情戏，而不是女性和王子之间的。

Annie Pfeifer: So, I think there's really been an effort in the last, certainly twenty, thirty years to kind of rethink fairy tales, you know, from sort of, the politically correct fairy tales where, you know, there's an effort to kind of make all the fairy tales more PC, and so there's all sorts of really funny allusions to the fairy tales there. But, you know, there's also sort of more serious retellings where there's real effort made to kind of rethink how the fairy tales could be made or cultivated for progressive purposes and not just, you know, a damsel in distress who has to be saved by a prince.

安妮·菲佛：所以我觉得在过去二、三十年里，人们真的在努力重新思考童话，从政治正确的角度讲童话，让它们更政治正确，出现了很多有意思的改编。当然，也有一些更为严肃的改编。人们重新思考童话能起到何种教育或推动进步的作用，而不是仅仅讲述一个身陷困境的少女如何被王子拯救。

Annie Pfeifer: And so I think that that sort of is a testament to the malleability of fairy tales, that they're not just encoded with, sort of, patriarchal norms and thus have to be discarded, but that they can be continually reimagined. And that's kind of that sort of post-war legacy of fairy tales is kind of reimagining them for different political and social purposes.

安妮·菲佛：而这在我看来恰恰证明了童话的可塑性。尽管它们有时展现了父权的规范，不过我们不必因此而将它们抛弃，反而可以透过不断重新想象来改编这些童话。这就是二战后童话的馈赠，它让人们能够基于不同的政治和社会目的，对它们进行二次想象。

Zachary Davis: I love the idea that these stories are clay and there's kind of a basic shape and then you can just form it to fit your needs and your own delight.

扎卡里·戴维斯：我很喜欢这样一个说法。有人说童话是黏土，有基本的形状，但你可以根据自己的需要和喜好来捏制它。

Annie Pfeifer:  Yeah, exactly, at least that's how I try to look at them because I think that is how they originally started, how they were, you know, constantly evolving and changing and people made them their own. Who do fairy tales belong to? They belong to everybody. I think they're everybody's tales. And, you know, it's up to us to change them in ways that are useful and helpful and empowering to us, ourselves as readers and listeners.

 安妮·菲佛：没错，至少我是这么看的，我觉得它们最初就是这样的。它们不断变化发展，为人们所用。童话属于谁？属于我们每个人。它们是所有人的童话，可以任由我们改编，让它们对我们、对读者、对听众都有所帮助，赋予所有人力量。

Zachary Davis: Fairy tales can also offer us a lesson in resilience.

扎卡里·戴维斯：童话也可以教导我们，让我们更有毅力。

Annie Pfeifer: Bruno Bettelheim is a psychoanalyst, and he talks a lot about the kind of psychological importance of fairy tales. And he tells us that he actually used—he was a Jewish exile who lived in the U.S. for many years after fleeing the Nazis and used fairy tales in part to treat, kind of, traumatized children and war refugees. And he thought, actually, fairy tales have a really important message for us also that, you know, life is really difficult. It's hard, right? There are lots of obstacles and...but yet you can triumph and prevail over them, right?

安妮·菲佛：布鲁诺·贝特尔海姆是一位精神分析学家，他谈了很多童话在心理方面的重要作用。他是一个犹太难民，逃离纳粹的魔爪之后，在美国住了很多年。他告诉我们，他用童话来治疗受创伤的儿童和战争难民。他认为，童话其实传达了一个非常重要的信息，那就是：生活是非常困难的，我们会遇到重重阻碍，但你终将战胜它们。

Annie Pfeifer: I think fairy tales actually have a lot of, kind of, important lessons in how to become more resilient, right? These kids are really resilient. And I think kids are more resilient than we give credit for, and I think that's part of what you see in these tales. And by sanitizing them, I think sometimes you're taking out the important lessons that children learn, which is that they can, you know, that even if their parents die or even if, you know, their parents try to kill them, they will still be okay.

安妮·菲佛：我觉得童话其实蕴含着很多重要的道理，告诉了我们如何变得更有毅力。这些小主角真的很坚强。而且我觉得，孩子们比我们想象中的更坚强，你在这些故事中也能看到这一点。我觉得把童话净化了，有时候反而去除了一些孩子们可以学到的重要道理。你看，在早期版本中，即使他们父母死了，或是父母想要杀掉他们，最后他们仍然安然无恙。

Zachary Davis: The Grimm brothers initially set out to preserve a rapidly fading culture, but they ended up creating a whole new literary genre. By combining elements of Romanticism, oral folk traditions, and the precariousness of their own lives, they gave new meaning to centuries old tales that continue to evolve today.

扎卡里·戴维斯：格林兄弟最初只是为了保护一种迅速消亡的文化，但他们最终创造出了一种全新的文学类别。他们结合了浪漫主义、民间口述传统和自己不稳定的生活等元素，为几个世纪以来的故事赋予了新的意义。时至今日，这些故事仍然在不断发展。

Annie Pfeifer: They were responsible for creating the genre of children's literature, in part. They were deeply interested and conscious in this practice of collecting folklore—so, paying attention to the traditions and stories of everyday people, not just sort of the cultured elites, but the culture that was passed through individuals and through homes and through, sort of, peasant life.

安妮·菲佛：他们在一定程度上创造了儿童文学这一类别。他们很喜欢、也很注重收集民间传说。他们关注着日常生活中的文化传统和故事，关注着栖息在农民的生活中、由个体和家庭代代相传的文化，而不仅仅将视线囿于有文化的精英。

Annie Pfeifer: One of the most long lasting effects of the Grimms’ Fairy Tales was the sort of popularization and widespread appeal of fairy tales for a modern audience, right, that they weren't just these kind of medieval, baroque tales that, you know, were kind of in the annals of history, but that they could be retold and redeployed. So, I think in some ways they also started the tradition of retelling stories and, you know, everything from, you know, the kind of interest in fairy tales, utopic fairy tales in, you know, Weimar Germany to the Disney, the Disney culture.

安妮·菲佛：《格林童话》一个最持久的影响便是，把童话带到了大众面前，让现代读者普遍为之所吸引。它们不再仅仅是中世纪巴洛克式的故事，而是在历史的年轮里被不断重新讲述、重新改造。所以我觉得，从某些方面看，《格林童话》也开启了重述故事的传统。从魏玛共和国时期的德国到如今的迪士尼，人们对乌托邦式的童话都充满了兴趣。

Annie Pfeifer: So, this was a kind of investment in the fairy tale, but in the modernity, paradoxically, in the modernity of the fairy tale, that it wasn't this archaic phenomenon that was removed from us, but that it had import and relevance to our everyday lives, even though it was set in a kind of distant past, that it could give us lessons. But also, they're just fun tales to read. They're hilarious. They're often very crazy and weird, but they're great. You know, they're really entertaining. And that's...we shouldn't also lose sight of that.

安妮·菲佛：这是对童话的贡献。不过出人意料的是，童话在现代传播时候，其中描绘的古老现象并没有让我们感到非常遥远，反而和我们的日常生活息息相关，发挥着重要作用。即使故事场景设置在遥远的过去，我们仍然能从中获得启迪。更何况，它们读起来是那么有意思，让人捧腹大笑，尽管时而疯狂或怪诞，但非常伟大。我们绝不应该忽视它们的伟大之处。

Zachary Davis: Writ Large is a production of Ximalaya. Writ Large is produced by Jack Pombriant, Liza French, and me, Zachary Davis. Script editing is by Galen Beebe. We get help from Feiran Du, Ariel Liu, and Monica Zhang. Our theme song is by Ian Coss. Don’t miss an episode. Subscribe today in the Ximalaya app. Thanks for listening. See you next time.

扎卡里·戴维斯：本节目由喜马拉雅独家制作播出。感谢您的收听，我们下期再见！