【英文翻译版58】尤里·科里根：《卡拉马佐夫兄弟》

英文文稿+中文翻译 

Zachary Davis: When he was a teenager, Yuri Corrigan was staying with his grandparents in Halifax, Nova Scotia. While there, he first encountered the book that would change his life.

扎克里·戴维斯：十几岁的时候，尤里·科里根和祖父母一起住在加拿大新斯科舍省的哈利法克斯。在那里，他第一次读到了一本改变他一生的书。

Yuri Corrigan: So my relationship with The Brothers Karamazov started when I was—I think I was 16 and I come from a family that's Russiandescendants. And so my grandfather found out that I hadn't read Dostoevsky. And he staged a minor intervention there. He insisted that I read it. And I was really lucky at the time because, you know, he loved this novel and my step grandmother, his wife, she loved it, too. And they were following my progress through the novel.

尤里·科里根：我十六岁那年第一次接触到了《卡拉马佐夫兄弟》。我们家有俄国血统，所以当我爷爷发现我竟然没有读过陀思妥耶夫斯基，就决定出手做点什么——他坚持让我读这本书。我很幸运，我爷爷和继奶奶都很爱这部小说。他们跟着我一起读了下去。

Yuri Corrigan:So I'd kind of wake up in the morning and, and I'd go downstairs and my grandpa would be at the breakfast table and he would say, you know, Yuri, I think that Ivan is Smerdyakov’s double. That's kind of how it started the day, you know. And I think what? Is he really? Then we go out walking in the evenings, you know, what have you figured out? What have you seen about this novel?

尤里·科里根：早上醒来，我跑下楼，爷爷会在早餐时候跟我说：“尤里，我觉得伊万是另一个斯乜尔加科夫。”一天就这么开始了。我会想：“什么？他说的是真的吗？”晚上我们出门散步，他会问我：“你发现了什么？你怎么看这部小说？”

Yuri Corrigan: So I guess now I was just very, very lucky in that sense that from the very beginning when I was reading it, I understood that there was something about this novel that you had to think a lot to get, but also that it deepened and opened up to you, depending on the depth of your meditation about it. And I think that's a very special quality. So my name is Yuri Corrigan, I am an associate professor of Russian and comparative literature at Boston University.

尤里·科里根：现在回想起来，我觉得自己简直太幸运了——最开始我读这部小说的时候，我就知道书里有些东西需要细细思考才能弄明白。你思考的越深，这本书对你来说就愈发深刻和广博。我觉得这是它很独特的一点。我叫尤里·科里根，是波士顿大学俄国文学和比较文学副教授。

Zachary Davis: The Brothers Karamazov also changed my life. I grew up in a little Mormon town in Utah, and my high school...wasn’t great. But when I was sixteen, I was invited to come stay with my uncle for a semester in Madrid, Spain, and I enrolled in a really good private school for expats. On the first day of class, my English teacher gave me a copy of The Brothers Karamazov—which is a really long book—and he told us we had one week to read the whole thing.

扎克里·戴维斯：《卡拉马佐夫兄弟》也改变了我的人生。我在犹他州的一个摩门教小镇长大，我的高中学校不是很好。不过十六岁的时候，我被邀请去西班牙马德里的叔叔家待了一个学期，在专门为海外学生设立的一所非常好的私立学校上课。上课的第一天，英语老师给了我一本《卡拉马佐夫兄弟》。这本书很厚，老师告诉我们一周之内要读完整本书。

Zachary Davis:I was a bit incredulous, but once I started reading I was completely hooked by the humor, brilliance and wisdom of the novel. It opened my eyes to a larger, more complex, more fascinating world than the one I had known. And it really kindled my lifelong love of books. So, in a way, this podcast exists because of The Brothers Karamazov!

扎克里·戴维斯：我当时有点惊讶，但一旦读起来，我就完全被作者的幽默、才华和智慧所吸引。这本书让我看到了一个比我所知的更广大、更复杂也更迷人的世界，也让我这辈子真正地爱上了读书。所以，在某种程度上讲，如今我之所以能做这档播客，恐怕还要归功于《卡拉马佐夫兄弟》。

Zachary Davis: The Brothers Karamazov was published in 1880 by the Russian author Fyodor Dostoevsky, and much of the novel is a response to cultural changes arising from modernizing forces coming in from Western Europe.

扎克里·戴维斯：1880年，俄国作家费奥多尔·陀思妥耶夫斯基出版了《卡拉马佐夫兄弟》。小说中的很多情节都回应了西欧现代化给俄国带来的文化影响。

Zachary Davis: Industrialized Capitalism, with its factories and trains, began to disrupt agrarian lifeways and shift wealth and power. New ideas were growing in popularity, too. The country’s leading intellectuals, centered in St. Petersburg and Moscow, were strong advocates of the Enlightenment  and believed it was their mission to yank their backward and superstitious country into the rational light of the modern age.

扎克里·戴维斯：以工厂和火车为代表的的工业资本主义打破了农业的生活方式，权力与财富出现了转移。新的思想越来越受欢迎。聚集在圣彼得堡和莫斯科的俄国顶尖知识分子坚定地拥护着启蒙运动，认为自己有责任为这个落后迷信的国家带来现代的理性之光。

Zachary Davis: The clash between traditional and modern ideas became extremely intense. It was a war of ideas that felt completely irresolvable. It is in the midst of his country’s culture war that Doestoevsky writes The Brothers Karamazov. Dostoevsky had already had a very impressive career by this point. He’d already written several other masterpieces, including Crime and Punishment, Poor Folk, and Notes From the Underground. The Brothers Karamazov was the last book Dostoevsky ever wrote. He died less than four months after it was published.

扎克里·戴维斯：传统思想和现代思想的碰撞变得极为激烈，这场思想交锋似乎完全无法化解。正是在俄国国内文化碰撞的背景下，陀思妥耶夫斯基写下了《卡拉马佐夫兄弟》。此时的他在文坛已经赫赫有名，出版了几部名著，如《罪与罚》、《穷人》、《地下室手记》。《卡拉马佐夫兄弟》是他生前的最后一部作品，出版后不到四个月，他就离开了人世。

Zachary Davis: And in his final novel, although Dostoevsky does push back against an uncritical embrace of the Enlightenment and modernity, he was less interested in polemics and definitively winning the culture war than in offering a way out of heated conflict. He wants his readers to recognize that neither tradition nor modernity can solve the core struggles of human existence.

扎克里·戴维斯：在这部遗作中，虽然陀思妥耶夫斯基确实反对人们对启蒙运动和现代性不加批判的拥护，但他的兴趣不在于赢得这场思想论战，而在于求得一种摆脱激烈冲突的方法。他希望读者认识到，无论是传统文化还是现代启蒙，都无法解决人类存在于世的核心痛苦。

Yuri Corrigan: You know this is a person who really wanted to solve the problems. He didn't want to just say, oh, look how bad everything is, he wanted to say, here's what we do. And I think it's partly that kind of deep optimism, that sense of that, we all have these problems in life. We're all unhappy. And I'll try to help you through that. And so, you know, it's the kind of novel where you can bring your questions to it.

尤里·科里根：他真正想要的是解决这个问题，而不是仅仅哀叹这一切有多糟。他想要告诉读者怎么做。我觉得它之所以触动我们，一部分原因也在于，作者对人类普世问题抱有非常积极的态度——我们都不开心，但我想帮你走出来。所以说，这是一本可以带着问题去阅读的小说。

Zachary Davis: Welcome to Writ Large, a podcast about how books change the world. I’m Zachary Davis. In each episode, I talk with one of the world’s leading scholars about one book that changed the course of history. For this episode, I sat down with Professor Yuri Corrigan to discuss my favorite book, Fyodor Dostoevsky’s The Brothers Karamazov.

扎卡里·戴维斯：欢迎收听：100本改变你和世界的书，在这里我们为大家讲述改变世界的书籍。我是扎卡里·戴维斯。每一集，我都会和一位世界顶尖学者探讨一本影响历史进程的书。在本集，我和尤里·科里根教授一起讨论我最喜欢的一本书：费奥多尔·陀思妥耶夫斯基的《卡拉马佐夫兄弟》。

Zachary Davis: Tell us about Fyodor Dostoyevsky. How did he come to have the disposition and the ability to write these masterworks?

扎克里·戴维斯：您给我们介绍一下费奥多尔·陀思妥耶夫斯基吧。他的才情让他写出了许多名著，那他的才情又是从何而来的呢？

Yuri Corrigan:I guess he got really lucky and really unlucky at the same time. So really unlucky for any normal person, but really lucky for a writer. So, you know, the kind of stuff that happened to him is like what all writers would dream of happening to them if they didn't actually have to live through all the terrible things associated with it, right?

尤里·科里根：我觉得他真的很幸运，但也很不幸。对任何一个普通人来说，这是真得很不幸；但对一个作家来说，又真得很幸运。他的那些经历仿佛是所有作家梦寐以求的——当他们没有亲身经历过这些灾难，大概很容易会这么想，对吧。

Yuri Corrigan:So he grew up in Moscow. His mom died at an early age. He was sent away to Saint Petersburg. He was forced to join an engineering academy, which was not his choice, you know, by his father. And he his father died and it released him to become a literary. He always wanted to do literature. Him and his older brother, they were both passionate about literature. His brother was a poet. He was a writer. And he started writing and he became very successful very early. He got into this group of the cream of St. Petersburg society.

尤里·科里根：陀思妥耶夫斯基在莫斯科长大。他很小的时候，母亲就去世了。后来，他被送到了圣彼得堡，在父亲的要求下进了一所工程学院任职。可这并不是他自己的选择。父亲去世后，他还是转而从事自己一直梦寐以求的事业，那就是文学创作。他和哥哥都很热爱文学。他的哥哥写诗，而他写文章。他很早就在写作方面崭露头角，成为了圣彼得堡文学圈子的核心成员。

Zachary Davis: It was the mid-1840s, the start of Dostoevsky’s literary career. He became a member of the Petrashevsky Circle, a group made up of like-minded writers, teachers, students, army officers, and minor government officials. They were part of the social class known as the Russian Intelligentsia. The Intelligentsia were well-educated people who felt the responsibility to shape the politics and culture of their society.

扎克里·戴维斯：19世纪40年代中期，陀思妥耶夫斯基的写作生涯的开始了。他加入了彼得舍夫斯基小组，这个小组是由志同道合的作家、教师、学生、军官和政府小职员组成的。他们都属于俄国知识分子阶层，这个阶层的人受过良好的教育，认为自己有责任塑造俄国社会的政治和文化面貌。

Zachary Davis:There was a wide range of political views among the members of the Petrashevsky Circle, but most opposed the current Russian government, which was a monarchy led by Tsar Nicholas I. They loathed Nicholas for many things, but chiefly because he opposed ending serfdom, which was an oppressive feudal system that forced peasants to live and work on their landlord’s land. As you can imagine, such a system was full of abuse and suffering.

扎克里·戴维斯：彼得舍夫斯基小组的成员持各种各样的政治观点，但大多数人都反对当时的俄国政府——那是一个由沙皇尼古拉一世领导的君主制政府。他们因为很多事情而厌恶尼古拉一世，但主要是因为他反对结束农奴制。农奴制度下，农民们被迫在地主的土地上生活、劳作，是一种剥削性的封建制度。可想而知，这样的制度下，农奴会遭受多少虐待、忍受多少痛苦。

Zachary Davis: The Petrashevsky Circle often met to discuss possible methods of reform for Russia, and they looked to Europe as their example. The rise of industrialization had transformed Europe’s economy and brought feudalism to an end, and they sought the same thing. Not surprisingly, Tsar Nicholas wasn’t a fan of these rabble-rousers, and in 1849, the government cracked down and arrested members of the Petrashevsky Circle, including Dostoevsky.

扎克里·戴维斯：彼得舍夫斯基小组经常开会讨论在俄国可行的改革方法。他们以欧洲为榜样。工业化的推进改变了欧洲的经济，摧毁了欧洲的封建主义，这恰恰是他们想要实现的。毫无疑问，沙皇尼古拉一世视这帮人为眼中钉。1849年，政府镇压并逮捕了陀思妥耶夫斯基在内的彼得舍夫斯基小组成员。

Yuri Corrigan: He's 28 when he's arrested and he's sentenced to death. And he's actually taken along with his other co-conspirators, he's taken to the firing squad and he's up there on the square, he's about to die. He's counting the seconds of his life that he has left. And all of a sudden the sentence is commuted and he’s sent off to Siberia. And he's five years in prison, five years in exile.

尤里·科里根：陀思妥耶夫斯基被逮捕的时候只有28岁。他被判处死刑，和其他同伴一起被带到了行刑队跟前。他被带到了刑场，死刑马上就要执行了。他默默数着生命中最后的两秒、一秒……突然间，他被减刑了，改判流放到西伯利亚。他在监狱里待了五年，出来后又被流放了五年。

Yuri Corrigan: And then he comes back after all of that to St. Petersburg and he sees his old comrades, who are talking about what do you do about the people. Because there's this vast, vast populous. of, you know, illiterate, uneducated peasants, and you know, until 1861 is, you know, the majority of Russia is serfs. And so you have the Intelligentsia are thinking what can we do about this, how can we rebuild, how can we do it according to reason, how can we do it according to the cutting-edge European ideas.

尤里·科里根：十年后，他回到了圣彼得堡。他拜访了一些老朋友，这些人正在探讨要为俄国民众做点什么。俄国有大量不识字、没受过教育的农民，而且在1861年之前，他们中的大多数都是农奴。于是这些知识分子开始思考：我们能做什么？我们要如何重建这个国家？要如何从理性出发实现这些目标？要如何运用欧洲最先进的思想来实现它们？

Zachary Davis: The Intelligentsia in St. Petersburg believed the answers to Russia’s problems could be found in the Enlightened salons of Paris and lecture halls of Konigsberg, that reason should reign supreme over all other forms of authority. They wanted to overthrow the tsarist autocracy with a more rational, egalitarian society. They were utopians.

扎克里·戴维斯：圣彼得堡的知识分子相信，在巴黎的启蒙运动沙龙和哥尼斯堡的演讲厅里可以找到解决俄国问题的答案，那就是：理性应该凌驾于所有其他形式的权威之上。他们想推翻沙皇的专制统治，建立一个更理性、更平等的社会。他们是一群理想主义者。

Yuri Corrigan: And they have all these dreams of what they're going to do with Russia and Dostoevsky who's lived with, you know, hardened convicts and who's really been side by side with “the people for the past” definitely during the five years while he was in prison and then another five years in exile. He's thinking, like all these ideas that you have, these are very adolescent. These are very—like these are these just daydreams of students.

尤里・科里根：对于要如何改造俄国，他们有着所有这样的设想。而在入狱和被流放的这十年里，陀思妥耶夫斯基身边都是重刑犯和“旧世界的人”。所以他开始觉得，这些知识分子的想法都很幼稚，像是青涩学生的白日梦。

Yuri Corrigan: You know, they're so—he really has something to say when he comes back. And he did before. But now that he's back, he just feels like everybody's talking, and everybody's talking nonsense, and I have to do something about it.

尤里·科里根：所以他回来之后，觉得确实想说些什么。之前他也和他们一样，但如今，他觉得大家都在胡说八道，自己有必要出来说点什么。

Zachary Davis: And why did he think those ideas were naive?

扎克里·戴维斯：为什么他觉得那些想法很幼稚呢？

Yuri Corrigan: He was always a psychologist. You know, from the age of 17, he wrote in his diary that I want to understand the human being. The human being is a mystery. I want to understand what the human being is. And they'll spend my whole life doing something to that effect. And, one of the things that he saw before anybody started talking about it in Europe, among the people who are studying sciences of the mind, was he understood about the concept of trauma.

尤里·科里根：他一直在琢磨人的心理。十七岁时，他就在日记中写道：“我想了解人类。人类是一个谜团。我想了解人类是什么。这个谜我得花一辈子解开。”还有件事值得我们注意。在欧洲人开始谈论心理、研究心理学之前，陀思妥耶夫斯基就了解了“创伤”这个概念。

Yuri Corrigan: He understood that there are people who carry wounds and that those wounds determine their behavior without their knowing it. We make all kinds of decisions and we don't know that we're doing it for reasons that we have no clue about. And so there's this whole realm of soul for Dostoevsky of the unconscious that's beneath consciousness somewhere. And it's totally uncharted, totally unmapped. And everybody's pretending like it doesn't exist.

尤里·科里根：他认识到，一些人经历过创伤，这些创伤会在不经意间左右他们的行为。我们做着各种各样的决定，但我们对原因一无所知，所以也想不到是因为这个原因才会做这个决定。对陀思妥耶夫斯基来说，人的内心深处藏着灵魂，它就掩藏在意识的背后，也就是我们的潜意识里面。它完全不为人知，也无迹可寻。大家都扮作它不存在。

Zachary Davis: Dostoevsky was relatively alone in this way of thinking. Most of the cultural leaders of this time believed that people could force themselves to be rational, to do away with that unconscious, trauma-informed part of  themselves. For example, the social critic and philosopher Nikolai Chernyshevsky was a strong believer in revolution. He would often use the phrase “the worse, the better”, meaning that the worse things got for the poor, the more they would want to start a revolution. He published the novel What Is To Be Done in 1863. Years later, his book was picked up by Vladimir Lenin, and it became his guide for how to design the Russian Revolution.

扎克里·戴维斯：陀思妥耶夫斯基的这个想法相对罕见。那个时代的大多数文化领袖都认为，人们可以强迫自己变得理性，去掉自己身上那些无意识的、受创伤影响的部分。比如，社会批评家、哲学家尼古拉·车尔尼雪夫斯基便是坚定的革命信仰者。他常常说：“越糟糕越好。”他的意思是，穷人的处境越糟糕，他们就越想发动革命。他在1863年出版了小说《怎么办》。几年后，弗拉基米尔·列宁阅读了这本书，把它用作俄国十月革命的指南。

Yuri Corrigan: And one of the things that Chernyshevsky holds to is that, you know, there's going to be a new kind of person that, like people were a certain way, and now people are changing. People are becoming more rational. People are becoming, it's possible to think of a person who gets rid of all that, like. You know, that sort of emotional, you know, all that stuff below the waterline and just become pure will and those are the people we need to build the new world.

尤里·科里根：车尔尼雪夫斯基坚持认为，未来会出现一批新的人。从前人们是某个模样，但他们在改变，会慢慢变理性。我们可以期望人们摆脱所有情感的羁绊，摆脱潜意识的束缚，只保留纯粹的意志。这些人就是我们建立新世界时所需要的人。

Zachary Davis: Most people in the Intelligentsia agreed with this idea—that becoming more rational was the way to move forward—and Chernyshevsky wasn’t writing in a vacuum. There were other forces at work that made pure will attractive to the Intelligentsia as a way to reform culture.

扎克里·戴维斯：大多数人都同意这个观点，觉得只有变得更加理性，社会才能向前发展。持这种观点的并不只有车尔尼雪夫斯基一个人。在其他因素的推动下，俄国知识分子都乐于将纯粹意志看作推动变革的力量。

Yuri Corrigan: You know, Russia came to the Enlightenment late. Russia became modern only really in the 18th century or in the very turn of the 18th century with Peter the Great. And so they're kind of like, you know, rushing to show how up to date they are with the latest. And so materialism, Atheism, egoism, positivism.

尤里·科里根：俄罗斯的启蒙运动开始得很晚。18世纪初，在彼得大帝的改革下，俄罗斯才真正成为现代社会。所以这些人有点急于展现自己多么与时俱进。于是，唯物主义、无神论、利己主义、实证主义便饱受推崇。

Yuri Corrigan: And positivism is very important as a kind of a cultural phenomenon, the idea that nothing exists outside of what can be verified by science, you know, in this kind of world view of rational scientism. This is very big. And they say if she just thinks that's all just in some ways, that is just the shallowest world view you could possibly imagine. He said he already understood that that's just the tip of the iceberg and all the reasons that we actually act, it doesn't take into account.

尤里·科里根：实证主义作为一种文化现象非常重要。在这种崇尚理性科学的世界观下，所有无法被科学验证的东西都是不存在的。这可是一个非常大的转变。在实证主义者看来，如果有人觉得按照他的直觉提出某种看法，这看法可以说是你所能想像的范围里最肤浅的。但陀思妥耶夫斯基说，他知道那个人发现的只是冰山一角，但我们真实行为的所有原因，实证主义都没有考虑到。

Zachary Davis: This is what set Dostoevsky apart from his peers. Most Russian intellectuals were pushing toward modernity, but Dostoevsky was pushing against it.

扎克里·戴维斯：这就是陀思妥耶夫斯基与其他人的不同之处。大多数俄国知识分子都在推崇现代性，而他却在反对现代性。

Yuri Corrigan: Dostoevsky really came to maturity as a writer, as a critic of modernity, that what modernity is for the Dostoevsky is the sense that we're completely cut off from any traditional roots, that we are isolated or fragmented and fragmented in the sense that we're cut off not just from others, but we're cut off from ourselves. We're cut off from what's deepest within ourselves. We're under the illusion that we are these kind of walking minds that make all of our decisions for ourselves.

尤里·科里根：陀思妥耶夫斯基是一个真正成熟的作家和对现代性的批评家。对于陀思妥耶夫斯基来说，现代性不过是让我们感觉到，自己全然脱离于传统根基，茕茕孑立，支离破碎。在这个意义上看，我们不仅与他人隔绝，还与自己相隔绝、与自己内心最深处的东西相隔绝。我们错以为自己是理性派，可以为自己做出所有决定。

Yuri Corrigan: And we have no sense of the homes, of what you know, more traditional cultures had. We just kind of laugh at all of that. And so what he's trying to do is kind of raise the alarm, like ring the alarm bells, like modernities is a sickness. We're all suffering from it. We're all unhappy. We're all fragmented.

尤里·科里根：我们不再对家园和传统文化寄予情感，反而肆意嘲笑它们。陀思妥耶夫斯基想要敲响警钟，告诉我们现代性也是一种病，一种我们都在染上的病。它让我们闷闷不乐、支离破碎。

Yuri Corrigan:And there are ways to think about trying to put us back together again. And I think that's kind of his mission as a novelist. And it's very hard to pursue that mission when everybody around you won't even admit that there is anything below the waterline. So that's kind of Dostoevsky working uphill, doing his uphill battle in the early 1860s.

尤里·科里根：他在思考如何缝补我们的灵魂。我觉得这也是他作为小说家的使命。当周围的人都不愿承认潜藏在水面之下的东西，完成这项使命也就尤为困难。这对陀思妥耶夫斯基来说是一场艰苦卓绝的战斗。19世纪60年代初，他开始了这场战斗。

Zachary Davis: And in this battle, novels were his weapons.

扎克里·戴维斯：在这场战斗中，小说便是他的武器。

Yuri Corrigan: He was extremely prolific and he was also very interested in the business side of the literary world. So he was working on the journal with his brother and he was always kind of engaged in that part. But, you know, the big part of his career was Notes From Underground then Crime and Punishment, massive success. It’s around that time that he gets married to his second wife, which is also a major event for him, kind of like family happiness and which really, you know, he had a lot of very destructive tendencies. And I think she helped anchor him.

尤里·科里根：他很高产，也很关注文学的收益。当时他正和他的哥哥办杂志，他一直在做这方面的事情。不过这段时间，他的主要成就还是写出了《地下室手记》和《罪与罚》。这两本书大获成功。这段时间，他和第二任妻子结婚了。这对他来说也是一件大事，给他带来了家庭的幸福。陀思妥耶夫斯基很有自我毁灭的倾向，但妻子给了他安全感。

Yuri Corrigan: And then you have after that The Idiot, you have The Devils or The Possessed or The Demons, however you want to translate it. And then you have The Adolescent. And then finally, The Brothers Karamazov and Dostoevsky dies at 59. And as an epileptic-chained smoker with emphysema and just with all the crazy anxiety that he experiences, to me, it's a miracle that he lasted that long, that he made it that long so that he was able to write this novel. You know, I always think this novel shouldn't exist. He should have been dead many, many times before he got there. So that's kind of in some ways the crowning achievement of his work. And, it would have already been an unparalleled career without it.

尤里・科里根：之后他还写了《白痴》、《群魔》和《少年》。《群魔》这本书的书名在英文中又译为“着魔者”或“恶魔”。他的最后一本书是《卡拉马佐夫兄弟》。完成这本书后，陀思妥耶夫斯基便去世了，享年五十九岁。陀思妥耶夫斯基深受癫痫困扰，经常吸烟，患有肺气肿，还深陷焦虑之中。所以在我看来，他能活到五十九岁已经是一个奇迹了，仿佛是要硬撑着把这部小说写出来。我一直觉得按理说，这部小说根本不可能问世，他也根本不可能活这么久。他早就在鬼门关前面徘徊过很多次了。从某些方面看，《卡拉马佐夫兄弟》是他一生中最好的作品。不过即使没有这部作品，他的创作生涯也无人可以企及。

Zachary Davis: Dostoevsky worked fast. This was mostly out of necessity. Because he was constantly broke and had a weakness for gambling, he had to publish quickly to get money.

扎克里・戴维斯：陀思妥耶夫斯基写作的速度很快。这主要是出于物质需要，因为他经常入不敷出，而且有赌博的恶习，所以他必须快速发表作品来赚钱。

Yuri Corrigan: And so you get the, you know, you get a sense that with Dostoevsky, all of his novels are drafts. He's working out ideas. He's working quickly. He wrote at night and he wrote, you know—his is pen was moving quickly over the page. And, you know, and so he brings all of those drafts to The Brothers Karamazov. And one of the things that he brings is this project of trying to write a perfectly good person. And that becomes this image of Alyosha, which blends together with the kind of grief and love that he had for his dead son.

尤里・科里根：你会感觉，对陀思妥耶夫斯基来说，所有小说都是草稿。他把想法写下来，一气呵成地把稿子写完。晚上，他伏在桌边，笔尖在纸上迅速穿梭。所有这些草稿汇成了《卡拉马佐夫兄弟》。他还计划着塑造一个完美的好人，也就是书中的阿辽沙。阿辽沙这个角色融入了他对死去幼子的爱与悲痛。

Yuri Corrigan: You know, when you look at his life, there was just all these tiny moments that contributed to it, you know, for a long time, for the last decade of his life and more. He was planning on writing this big, big book, you know, I think at three volumes long, which The Brothers Karamazov was going to just be the first, the kind of prequel to this big work. And at first he thought of it as The Life of a Great Sinner—that was the title that he was working with.

尤里·科里根：若是研究一下陀思妥耶夫斯基的一生，你会发现很多在他生命中最后十多年的微小的时刻都成就了这部小说。他计划写一部鸿篇巨制，总共有三卷，如今我们看到的《卡拉马佐夫兄弟》只是整部书的第一部分。一开始，他准备给这本书起名为“一个伟大罪人的一生”。

Zachary Davis: What is it about? What's the general sweep?

扎克里·戴维斯：这本书讲了什么？大致情节是什么呢？

Yuri Corrigan: I think that at its core, it's about a family and it's about a very dysfunctional family. And, you know, Dostoevsky, he chose a father who was probably the worst father you could possibly imagine.

尤里·科里根：我觉得它主要描绘了一个家庭，而且是一个不太正常的家庭。陀思妥耶夫斯基笔下的父亲是你能想象的到的最糟糕的父亲。

Yuri Corrigan: And for some reason, you feel a great fondness for this character in the staff called this character Fyodor. And that's important. He gave him his own name. And so you have this father who raises this wildly dysfunctional family with his first wife. He has his oldest son, Dimitri, who hates his father.

尤里·科里根：出于某种原因，你会对这个父亲很有好感，因为他叫“费奥多尔”。名字这个细节很重要，因为这恰恰也是陀思妥耶夫斯基自己的名字。故事中的父亲和第一任妻子养育了这个疯子般的家庭。他们生下了大儿子德米特里，而德米特里非常恨他的父亲。

Yuri Corrigan: And then he has with second wife. He has two sons, Ivan and Alyosha, and then there's probably a fourth brother, although the Dostoevsky leaves it unresolved in the novel, whether he is, in fact, if you're their son and that's is a kind of—I guess it's a little bit unclear in the text, but it looks like there's this woman in the village and he and she's kind of like this holy fool who is, you know, a little bit, you know, maybe mentally disabled. And he apparently has a child with her. And that child's name is Pavel, who's usually been called Smerdyakov. And he's kind of this humiliated bastard son.

尤里·科里根：后来，这位父亲又娶了第二任妻子。他们生下了两个儿子——伊万和阿辽沙。还有个叫斯乜尔加科夫的可能也是他的儿子，不过小说里并没有点明这个孩子到底是不是他的。但书里说，小镇里有个女人，她是个所谓的“圣愚”，外表不太对劲，看起来疯疯颠颠，但内里其实蛮有道德的。费奥多尔跟这个女人显然生了个孩子，名叫帕维尔，但人们都叫他“斯乜尔加科夫”。这就是他那个被人羞辱的私生子。

Yuri Corrigan: And so that's the family. And the mothers are dead. And you kind of have—I guess what happens is that the father is killed and it becomes a murder mystery. And one beautiful thing about this is, although he was writing about your philosophy and he knew the whole tradition, he liked trashy literature and he wasn't against using trashy devices to keep readers reading. And so he loved detective stuff, you know? And so a lot of it is you don't know who killed the father. And that's awesome. It's a detective story.

尤里·科里根：所以这就是这一家的情况。母亲们都去世了，父亲被谋杀了，凶手成谜。小说有一点非常好。尽管陀思妥耶夫斯基写的是一些哲学思考，也深知整个文学传统，但他并不排斥通俗文学，也不反对在作品中用些通俗的手法，好让读者读得下去。所以他很喜欢侦探元素。在书里面很多地方，你都不知道父亲是谁杀的。这太了不起了，就像侦探故事一样。

Yuri Corrigan: And then you have this whole courtroom drama, which is also very ahead of its time in terms of, you know, the older brother, Dmitri, who kept saying, “I'm going to kill this guy. I hate this guy, I hate this guy.” You know, it's like he's just so clearly guilty? And then he's accused of the murder. And then you see the whole courtroom drama unfold. And then there's also love stories, those three separate love stories, one for each of the three main brothers. And those are kind of the bones of it.

尤里·科里根：于是你就看到了法庭上的一幕。这儿有一处设计也很超前。大哥德米特里反复在说：“我要杀了这个老家伙，我恨他。”那显然嫌疑人不就是他吗？于是他被指控谋杀，法庭这一幕结束了。接下来还有三段互相独立爱情故事，每个兄弟对应一段。这些是故事的重要情节。

Yuri Corrigan:What you see for each brother is each one undergoes a kind of an intense personal crisis. And that's kind of the core of the novel, is your relationship with these three brothers. And they're kind of each trying to come out on the other side of this crisis. It's kind of all brought together by the fact that it's also a novel of ideas, it's a philosophical novel. And in some ways, maybe it's the philosophical novel, the paradigm of the template for what a philosophical novel could be.

尤里·科里根：每一个兄弟都经历了一场严重的个人危机，而其他角色和三兄弟的关系也是小说的重要内容。每个人都在努力希望从各自的危机中脱身而出。所有这些汇聚起来，展现了一个事实，那就是这是一部有关思想的小说，是一部哲学小说。从某些方面看，它是一本独特的哲学小说，因为它为后来的哲学小说树立了典范。

Zachary Davis: When did he get the idea for something this ambitious? And, you know, what do you think he was trying to do in it?

扎克里·戴维斯：他什么时候有了这么雄心勃勃的想法？您觉得他试图在小说中表达什么？

Yuri Corrigan: One of the things that makes this such heart-wrenching to read is that it's a novel about grief. And his son died in May of 1878, just as he was beginning the novel, and his son was Alyosha Alexey Fyodorovitch Dostoyevsky, right? So the destiny always have—People hate it when they read Russian novels because everybody has so many names. It's important that the title character, you know, the hero of his novel is also Alexey Fyodorovitch, son of Fyodor. And he gave the name of the son who had died.

尤里·科里根：小说读起来叫人悲伤，这和小说背后的一段伤心事有关。1878年5月，就在陀思妥耶夫斯基开始写这部小说的时候，他的儿子阿辽沙·阿列克塞·费奥多尔·陀思妥耶夫斯基去世了。插一句，人们读俄国小说的时候都很苦恼，因为每个人的名字都好长。这儿又有一点很重要——小说里一个主人公、也就是老卡拉马佐夫的三儿子也叫阿列克塞，全名是阿列克塞·费多罗维奇·卡拉马佐夫。陀思妥耶夫斯基用死去儿子的名字命名了这个角色。

Yuri Corrigan:So he had a son who lived until three years old, almost three years old, and then died. And Dostoevsky had, you know, two other surviving children. But it just, this one, he took really, really hard. This was his kind of his favorite. You know, the little boy was always—he was the one boy that was allowed into his study when his dad was working.

尤里·科里根：他的儿子大概三岁就去世了。他还有另外两个活着的孩子，但这一个儿子的去世让他特别难过。这是他最喜欢的孩子。在他写作的时候，只有这个孩子可以进他的书房。

Yuri Corrigan: And, you know, he took it really hard. And I think that partly he was, you know, some of the questions that he brings to the novel about why do children suffer, why do terrible tragedies happen? This is not just some kind of intellectual preoccupation. You know, is there a God? Why did my son die? What is God? You know, these are questions that we're burning questions from—he really wanted to know the answer. And so the novel is born of that kind of grief.

尤里·科里根：他深受打击，或许这也是为什么他会在小说里思考：为什么孩子们会受苦？为什么会发生可怕的悲剧？有没有上帝？我的儿子为什么会去世？上帝是什么？他问这些问题，不仅仅是出于知识分子的使命，更是因为这些问题让他痛彻心扉，而他真的想要找到答案。所以说，这部小说就诞生于这种悲痛之中。

Zachary Davis: This book is both a philosophical work and a novel. Dostoevsky wanted to present his ideas about culture, the human soul, and God to those who didn’t share his beliefs.

扎克里·戴维斯：这本书既是一部哲学作品，也是一部小说。陀思妥耶夫斯基想把他关于文化、人的灵魂和上帝的观点呈现给那些不认同他想法的人。

Yuri Corrigan: You know, Dostoevsky wrote for a secular readership, and so he was always trying to figure out how to stop people from turning the pages when he got onto his beloved themes, which were the themes of immortality, God, the soul. And so he does it in this amazing way that just feels like it's not an imposition.

尤里·科里根：陀思妥耶夫斯基在为普通读者写作，但当他谈到喜欢的主题，比如不朽、上帝、灵魂时，他会想办法阻止人们快速翻过这些片段。他采取的策略非常神奇，会让人们不由自主地停下来思考。

Yuri Corrigan: I think that Dostoevsky was a philosopher who had certain questions that couldn't be answered theoretically, and that's what makes him an amazing writer. They could only be answered through the examples of living characters living through these questions. And so, you know, you can be a philosopher, you can say, why do innocent children suffer and die?

尤里・科里根：我觉得陀思妥耶夫斯基是一个哲学家，他抛出了一些很难用理论解答的问题，而这恰恰让他成为了一个了不起的作家。这些问题的答案只能从活生生的角色身上找到。于是你可以借角色之口发问：“为什么无辜的孩子会受苦、会离开人世？”

Yuri Corrigan: And, you know, then you can come up with an answer to that. But to Dostoevsky, that answer is probably worthless unless you start thinking about real children dying and you start looking at the people around them and how they deal with it and who's responsible for it, then it becomes a deeper kind of philosophical reflection.

尤里·科里根：你可以给出一个答案。但对陀思妥耶夫斯基来说，这个答案可能并没有价值，除非你真正开始思考儿童死亡、开始观察他们周围的人，看他们是如何处理的，看谁要对此负责。于是，这就变成了一种更深层次的哲学思考。

Zachary Davis: In the novel, Dostoevsky uses each of Fyodor’s sons to illustrate a different philosophical idea about society.

扎克里·戴维斯：在小说中，陀思妥耶夫斯基借由费奥多尔的三个儿子，来分别阐明关于社会的三种不同的哲学思想。

Yuri Corrigan: Dostoevsky is such a complex writer that he writes against type, so you kind of have this sense at first that Dimitri is kind of the wild son, the one who is just the kind of monster of the family. And then you have Ivan, who's this extreme intellectual and, you know, an atheist. And then you have Alyosha, who's the kind of the good hearted son.

尤里・科里根：身为作家，他如此复杂，写作时不拘于任何类型。于是你会觉得，德米特里是个无法无天的儿子，就是家里面的那种害群之马；伊万是一个彻彻底底的知识分子，信奉无神论；阿辽沙则是那种心地善良的儿子。

Yuri Corrigan: And, you know, when you look at the text, it doesn't hold up somehow. They are much more complex than that. Ivan is extremely sensitive. He possibly isn't even an atheist. Alyosha is actually it says sometimes I don't believe in God. And, you know, in the media is the one Dimitri, the oldest, who's supposed to be this monster, is actually longing in his soul always to be good. You know, he feels disgust with himself.

尤里・科里根：但阅读的时候，你会发现有时候也不是这样的。他们都比这个复杂得多。伊万极其敏感，甚至有可能不是无神论者；阿辽沙有时候说，自己并不信上帝；大哥德米特里在众人眼里是个坏胚子，心里却一直希望做个好人，非常厌恶自己。

Yuri Corrigan:And so I think what he carries, what they all carry and this is, you know, for Dostoevsky, very important. How do you integrate your past? I think this is one of the questions that he's asking. What does it mean to be modern? Is that we live without memories. We live without roots. We live without traditions. We long for those traditions.

尤里·科里根：他们都带有这种复杂性，这在陀思妥耶夫斯基看来非常重要。你要如何把你的过去联系到自己身上？我想这是他想要问的一个问题。变得现代又意味着什么？我们会失掉我们的记忆、根基和传统吗？可是我们渴望这些传统。

Yuri Corrigan: And it's not just, oh, well, I'm going to find my tradition. I'm going to integrate myself. It's like, look at your dad. Do you really want to integrate yourself? Like that? Like, if you want to find God, the father, you're going to—have to—go through your father. And your father is a horrible person. And this is a person who never looked after you, never did anything to you. And so how are you going to do that work of integration?

尤里·科里根：他不是这么说的：“好吧好吧，我去找我的传统就是了，我来让自己变成一个完整的人。”他是这么说的：“看看你父亲的样子。你真想变成个完整的人吗？你想要找上帝救赎，就要、也不得不让你父亲帮忙。但你父亲又这么不堪，从没照顾过你，从没为你做过任何事情。那你要怎么使自己变得完整呢？”

Yuri Corrigan:And so Dimitri, the eldest brother, what he represents is a soul that wants him, he says, to make a pact with the earth. He's a romantic, he says, but what do I do? Do I just rub myself against the earth? How do I do it? How do I make myself? And he's so disgusted with all this—you know, it's like little impulses because they remind him of his dad and he's got a lot of work to do, you know, because he's got to integrate all of that stuff. He says this Karamazov force that flows inside of us, that's like our DNA. Oh, it's gross.

尤里·科里根：大哥德米特里代表了内心渴望回归现实的人。他很浪漫，但他也困惑：“我要怎么做？难道要在现实面前把自己撞个粉身碎骨吗？”所以他对着一切都深恶痛绝。这股情绪突然涌上心头，因为过去的种种事情让自己想到了父亲，让自己觉得，如果要弥合所有这些过去的片段，那么要做的事情太多了。他说，他们心里都有一股卡拉马佐夫家的力量，这种力量就像基因一样印在他们身体里——啊，这可太恶心了。

Yuri Corrigan: That's the whole modern problem, is that we're disgusted by the past. We look back, we just see injustice. What do we do with it? And for the Dostoevsky, if you want to become an integrated person, if you want to find God, you have to go through that murky water and you have to find a way to find it in yourself. And that's Dimitri's big try. That's his great challenge.

尤里·科里根：我们对过去深恶痛觉，这就是整个现代的问题。回顾过往，我们看到的是不公，那我们要如何解决它？对陀思妥耶夫斯基来说，如果你想要变成一个完整的人，想要得到上帝的宽恕，就必须蹚过这滩浑水，向内寻求使自己变得完整的办法。这就是德米特里的一大尝试，也是他面临的一大挑战。

Zachary Davis: For Dostoevsky, Dimitri’s challenge is also the big challenge for humanity—to take responsibility for and to integrate the past. This is what the rational minded Intelligentsia were ignoring. They wanted to move forward and build a new future without consulting the past. After Dimitri, the next oldest brother is Ivan. He represents the secular intellectual.

扎克里・戴维斯：在陀思妥耶夫斯基看来，德米特里所面临的挑战也是人类普遍面临的巨大挑战，那就是如何承担起责任来弥合过去。这也是理性的俄国知识分子所忽视的问题。他们打算不去回顾往昔，只管向前冲，建立新的未来。排在德米特里后面的是二哥伊万。他代表着世俗知识分子。

Yuri Corrigan: And here you have the problem of the character who is an idealist that we like. So here's his idea that it's easy to love humanity, but it's impossible to love human beings. And the truth is, this is Dostoevsky's big insight, that if you love, the more you love humanity, the more you hate human beings, because human beings are loathsome, disgusting creatures if you believe in how good humanity can be.

尤里·科里根：我们喜欢的这个理想主义者也遇到了问题。他认为，爱全人类很容易，爱个体根本不可能。其实这也是陀思妥耶夫斯基的观点——你越是爱全人类，就越讨厌个体，因为如果你相信全人类可以变得多么美好，那么作为个体的人大多会卑劣到让你作呕。

Zachary Davis: The Intelligentsia believed that they could perfect humanity by thinking and acting rationally. They only saw what humanity could be without fully taking into account how humans actually are. This is what Ivan represents. Not only does Ivan dislike humans, but he also thinks that God is not a solution to humans’ problems.

扎克里·戴维斯：俄国知识分子相信，他们可以通过理性思考和积极行动来让人变得完美。但他们只看到了人类可以成为什么样，却没有充分考虑到个体的实际情况。这就是伊万所代表的想法。伊万不仅不喜欢人，还觉得上帝并不能解决人们的问题。

Yuri Corrigan: You have this character, this kind of the squeamishness of the modern intellectual who looks at the world and sees the world as a horrible place and a place that's governed badly. Because what you have is you who's the God that allowed everybody to be horrible to each other. And that's his position against God, is that, you know, children suffer like—and not just children suffer like here. All these examples I have this whole notebook full of all these instances of just the most disgusting, loathsome things happening to little children.

尤里·科里根：于是你看到了这么个角色、这样一个心烦意乱的现代知识分子。他看着这个世界，觉得它非常可怕，治理得很糟糕，而上帝竟然允许大家对彼此这么恶劣。这就是他对上帝的态度。孩子们也在受苦，而且受苦的还不仅仅是孩子。我可以记下满满一笔记本的例子，来看看有哪些最恶心、最叫人厌恶的事情发生在了孩子身上。

Yuri Corrigan: And so there's this sense of which, you know, in which the whole world is it needs to be taken under control. And that's the move towards authoritarianism, from idealism to authoritarianism. The world is badly run by a God who doesn't look after little children. And so we're going to do it for him. We're going to take control. we have to fix God's mistake. God let people be free. We're not going to allow that to happen because it allows—because the consequences are too great.

尤里·科里根：所以你会觉得，整个世界需要被好好地管一管。你会从信奉理想主义，转而支持威权主义。这个世界正在被一个无视孩子苦难的上帝掌管着，我们要对他做点什么，夺取统治权，好好弥补上帝的过错。上帝让人们无所顾忌，但我们不允许这种情况，因为这么做的后果太严重了。

Zachary Davis: Dostoevsky contrasts Ivan’s atheism with the youngest brother, Alyosha. Alyosha is a member of the local Russian Orthodox monastery and adores his mentor, Father Zosima. In the novel, Alyosha undergoes a transformation that illustrates one of Dostoevsky’s key philosophical ideas.

扎克里·戴维斯：陀思妥耶夫斯基将伊万的无神论与最小的弟弟阿辽沙的信仰进行了对比。阿辽沙是当地东正教修道院的修士，敬仰自己的导师佐西玛长老。在小说中，阿辽沙经历了一场思想变化。这个情节诠释了陀思妥耶夫斯基的一个重要哲学思想。

Yuri Corrigan: With Alyosha, his ability is one in which he can look at people and kind of love them. And that for Dostoevsky is the hardest thing to do, you know, to actually love human beings and not humanity. And so what he calls it in the novel is active love.

尤里·科里根：阿辽沙可以看着人们，向他们投注爱意。他爱的不是抽象意义上的人，而是每个个体。这在陀思妥耶夫斯基看来是最难做到的。在小说中，他把这种爱称作“切实的爱”。

Yuri Corrigan: And I think that, you know, what Alyosha stands for in his development is that first he kind of is like a—you know, he's kind of like this, a slightly immature like he's a lovely person at the beginning, but he's immature in the sense that he just idolizes his elder. And it's not even clear if he has a God that he prays to. It's more like he prays to his elder and his elder kind of saves him from his own agony. It's hard to have your own mind.

尤里·科里根：我觉得阿辽沙展现了这样的成长过程：一开始他天真无邪，还有点不成熟，因为他很崇拜长老。他甚至不一定在向上帝祈祷，而是在向长老祈祷，而长老把他从痛苦中拯救出来。此时，你很难说他有自己的思想。

Yuri Corrigan: And his elder dies and he kind of goes through this dark night of the soul to find that experience of, you know, something deeper. And he's been haunted by this, something deeper. And he finds it after his elder dies. And it makes him into a strong person to this day of service as a fighter for his life.

尤里·科里根：但长老去世了，他的灵魂度过了漫漫黑夜。他想去寻找更深刻的体验，一直为此而困扰。不过长老去世后，他终于感知到了更深刻的力量。这让他成为了一个坚强的人，兢兢业业地迎战生活。

Yuri Corrigan: And so Dostoevsky is interested in that moment of crisis when your foundations are torn away and you're forced to kind of look inward and go through the gloom to encounter what he sees as the Holy Spirit that lies in the depths. So through Alyosha, he kind of shows the formation of a of what he saw as a religious consciousness, which was a very unorthodox, a view of religious experience.

尤里·科里根：陀思妥耶夫斯基对精神危机出现的那一刻很感兴趣——当你的精神支柱轰然倒塌，不得不向内观照。他借助阿辽沙这个角色展现了宗教意识的形成过程，这是一个和正统思想很不一样的、关于宗教体验的观念。

Yuri Corrigan:And I think what Alyosha represents, if he represents something in the novel, it's this idea of active love, is to be able to look a person up close and not be totally disgusted by that person and in fact, be a conduit for that thing. You know, that force that flows from the depths. And that can also be a very painful thing to do. And so that's kind of Alyosha's role is the loving brother.

尤里·科里根：如果说阿辽沙在小说中代表了什么，那就是这种“切实的爱”。你可以细细端详一个人，却不会对他感到厌恶，反而从内心深处流淌出一股大爱。当然这过程也会非常痛苦。但总之，阿辽沙扮演的角色就是三兄弟中那个心怀大爱的兄弟。

Zachary Davis: How did he resolve and how have other readers resolved? Though we may want to criticize hubristic philosophies of progress, the opposite tendency to just say we're doomed to let children suffer also seems wrong.

扎克里·戴维斯：虽然我们或许想要批评这种一刀切地宣扬进步的哲学，但反过来认为我们注定会让孩子们受苦，似乎也是错的。他是如何解决两者的矛盾，其他读者又是如何解决的？

Yuri Corrigan: What's beautiful about his, you know, his approach to the novel, he's like, oh, my God, how am I going to answer it? Is this my responsibility to answer? And so I think, you know, this idea that they children suffer and you can't get around it, you can't be like, well, in the end, it'll all turn out OK. I don't think he's interested in or they go to heaven. Nothing like that is very helpful for Dostoevsky.

尤里·科里根：他对小说的态度非常棒。他会思考：“天呐，我要怎么回答？回答这个是我的责任吗？”我觉得，对于孩子们受苦这个问题，你不能敷衍过去，不能只是设计个皆大欢喜的结局。我觉得陀思妥耶夫斯基无意探讨他们最后是否会升入天堂，这在他看来没有多大帮助。

Yuri Corrigan: I think that, you know, the idea is what did you do to stop it? You know, and not just are you going to build a system in which it doesn't happen, but in some ways you did it. And this is why, like I did it and this is I think this year there are many ways to explain this. But one way is that what do you mean by I, like if you start to look into a human mind, you see like this your own memories, and then there's, like this reservoir that this district believed that connects you to all human history and to all people.

尤里·科里根：他想问的是，你做了什么来阻止这些苦难？他不想听你说，打算建一个系统，却又不付诸行动；他想要你真正去建立它，又或者真的去实践一些事情。在我看来，我们现在可以用很多方式解释这一点。其中一个方式是，追问你所说的“我”是什么意思。如果你想要探究一个人的想法，你会把它们看作自己的记忆，就像一个蓄水池——它会把你自己和所有人的过去、乃至所有人本身联系起来。

Yuri Corrigan: And so we have all of that history within us and we don't want to confront it. You know, there are rotting bodies in our collective history. There's injustice, there's all that stuff. And you have to claim it. But not only do you have to claim it, because that's a lot to claim that can destroy your life. You have to clean the sources that lie beyond them because that's how, you know, if you can find that source, which is and he believed that was his thing, you know, that he said he was talking about believing in God is not, it's not a discursive thing. It's not like do I believe don't I believe it has.

尤里·科里根：我们心底藏着我们所有过去的事情，我们不想面对它们。在我们人类的共同记忆中，有一些正在瓦解掉的记忆。那些不公、那些不好的记忆，都在慢慢瓦解。但你必须承认它们，否则被回避的记忆越来越多，这会毁掉你的生活。你必须追根溯源，从源头上越过去。因为如果你找到了源头，相信这是你信仰的，那么信仰并不是什么虚无缥缈的东西，并不是简简单单的或相信、或不信。

Yuri Corrigan: That has absolutely nothing to do with faith. Faith is almost physiological. Faith is if you do that digging, if you go through those waters, you will find a kind of source and then you will become a conduit for that source and you can bring it into the world. And that's almost more of an emotional psychological process than it is an intellectual process. And most of us don't want to do it. And most of the progressive intellectuals of Dostoevsky’s time saw it as philosophy, as symptomatology, right?

尤里·科里根：这种想法完全不是信仰，信仰是近乎生理性的。信仰是，如果你往深处挖掘，如果你走过了那滩浑水，你会找到你的信仰之源，你自己会成为输送信仰之源的沟渠，将信仰输送到世界上。这不是一个探索知识的过程，更像是一个探索情感与心理的过程。我们大多数人都不想这么做，而陀思妥耶夫斯基那个时代的大多数知识分子觉得这是哲学或症状学的做法。

Yuri Corrigan: They didn't want to accept that there was a soul because they didn't want to do all that work. They didn't want to carry all that endless history. And they didn't want to carry the darkness and they didn't want to think about their own painful childhoods and their, you know. And so the idea is let's march bravely into the future.

尤里·科里根：他们不想承认人有灵魂，因为他们不想做这些苦差事。他们不想背负着这些无尽的过去，不想背负着黑暗，也不想回忆自己痛苦的童年。所以他们说，让我们勇敢地迈向未来。

Yuri Corrigan: With this Dostoevsky saw was let's retreat from the past into the future and make the future even worse, because we haven't really dealt with what we're running away from. And so I think this idea that, you know, what does it mean to claim guilt and claim responsibility for everything that's ever happened? It's a kind of crucifixion. It's a kind of in that moment you become the world. And I think that's what he wanted us to do. He wanted us to be vast in that way.

尤里・科里根：而陀思妥耶夫斯基觉得，这种回避过去、展望未来的做法只会让未来更糟糕，因为我们没有真正解决企图回避的东西。所以，对过去所有事情负责且抱有歉意意味着什么？这是在背负十字架。在那一刻，你胸怀了整个天地。我想这就是他所希望的——他希望我们的内心能那样开阔。

Zachary Davis: The difference between claiming and avoiding responsibility is illustrated through Alyosha and Ivan. Alyosha is someone who contains the whole within himself. He has waded through the muddy waters of existence, integrated the past and present, and arrived at a love for both humanity and the actual human beings we live with.

扎克里·戴维斯：陀思妥耶夫斯基通过阿辽沙和伊万来展现承担责任和逃避责任的区别。阿辽沙拾起了心底所有过往的记忆，蹚过了生活的浑水，将过去与现在缝合在了一起，最后他爱的不仅是抽象的全人类，还有每一个个体。

Zachary Davis: Ivan, however, resists responsibility for the past. He wants to wash his hands of the fallen state of the world. He can only love humanity in the abstract, not the flawed flesh and blood before him. Dostoevsky was aware of how past experiences wound us and shape us. But to heal and move forward, he believes we have to understand and integrate those wounds, both on an individual level and as a society. But this integration, this claiming of responsibility isn’t easy. It’s so much easier to blame others.

扎克里·戴维斯：而伊万逃避过去的责任，想要从世间乱象中抽身而去。他爱的只是抽象的人，而不爱眼前有缺陷的、有血有肉的人。陀思妥耶夫斯基知道过去的经历如何带给我们创伤、如何塑造了我们。但他认为，为了治愈自我、继续前行，我们必须了解、缝合这些创伤，无论是个人还是社会都需要这么做。但缝合创伤、承担责任并不容易。指责他人可要容易得多。

Yuri Corrigan: You know, they did it, we're going to punish them, we're going to take them on, we're going to create a world in which they're going to pay for their sins. I did it. What do I do with that?

尤里·科里根：我们要惩罚他们，要和他们唇枪舌战。我们要创造一个世界，在那里他们将为自己的罪过付出代价。假设我真的做到了，这又有什么意思？

Yuri Corrigan: You know, I look around me in my life and I think he says, you know, the other says, be careful what kind of face you're making because a child could be walking by and they could see that ugly expression that you're making in this moment. You know, like you're looking at something and you're just like ehh the kid sees it and enters into that kid's heart and it changes, you know, you just never know the way that, you know, every action pours out into the world.

尤里·科里根：生活中，我四处观照自我。我想，陀思妥耶夫斯基说，要注意你脸上的表情，因为可能会有孩子从你身边路过，他们会看到那一刻你脸上的丑陋表情。你在看着什么东西，这时候孩子看到了你的脸，你的表情刻在了他们的脑海里，它也就不一样了。你永远不知道，你的一举一动会以怎样的方式映射到这个世界上。

Yuri Corrigan: And so, do you take responsibility, do you take guilt on for everything that's happened? That's, I think Dostoevsky, that was the way that he tried to think through. And the problem is that Ivan’s critique of the world is a justified critique, but it's only part of the argument. I think that's the point.

尤里·科里根：所以你会不会为发生的一切负责？会不会内疚？我觉得，陀思妥耶夫斯基就是想要以这种方式思考。但问题在于，尽管伊万对世界的批判是合理的，但这并不是事情的全貌。我想这才是问题的关键。

Yuri Corrigan: And that's why I think when he wrote the novel, he didn't want to destroy his enemies. He wanted to bring his enemies into the fold. He wanted this to be the novel that healed the cultural war that was tearing the country apart. And I think that he saw it was only through this radical doctrine of guilt, radical or responsibility, that you could do that.

尤里·科里根：这就是为什么我觉得，他写小说的时候并不想瓦解对方的观点。他想把对方的观点融入其中，希望这部小说能治愈正在撕裂这个国家的文化论战。而在他看来，只有借助这种激进的正视罪过、承担责任的观点，才能实现这一目标。

Zachary Davis: Part of Dostoevsky’s great power as a novelist was his psychological insight. His perception of how our past and our subconscious motivate our actions. His work deeply influenced the field of psychology, including the pioneering Austrian psychologist Sigmund Freud.

扎克里·戴维斯：作为一个小说家，陀思妥耶夫斯基的伟大影响力部分出于他对人心的深刻洞察。他深知，我们的过去和我们的潜意识如何推动着我们的行为。他的作品深深地影响了心理学的发展，也影响了奥地利心理学先驱西格蒙德·弗洛伊德。

Yuri Corrigan: The beautiful thing about Freud. As you know, he was a doctor and he was self-conscious about seeming like a doctor, but he drew directly from, you know, Plato, Nietzsche, Dostoevsky. These were the architects of modern psychology and Shiller. There are a few others. But I think the Dostoevsky was very important. I think he's usually treated as a kind of stepping stone on the way to psychoanalysis. But he actually represents a psychology unto himself.

尤里·科里根：弗洛伊德很令人赞叹的地方在于，他是个医生，他也清楚自己像个医生，但他同时又直接从柏拉图、尼采、陀思妥耶夫斯基和席勒那儿汲取灵感。这些人都为现代心理学打下了基础。他还借鉴了其他人的思想。不过我认为陀思妥耶夫斯基非常重要。他往往被当作精神分析法发展历程中的一块铺路石，但实际上他代表了心理学本身。

Yuri Corrigan: And it's you know, what Freud did was he bounded the psyche. He took the romantic psyche, and he bounded it at the bottom source close to the bottom. You know, the energies that try to surge up inside of you there, your own, and you just have to figure out how to mediate them. And for the Dostoevsky, they come from somewhere else. And it could actually be the voice of the Holy Spirit howling out inside of you. And that's a different kind of psychology, but one that certainly contributed to modern day psychoanalysis.

尤里·科里根：弗洛伊德所做的是划定了心理的范畴。他跟从浪漫主义，把心理的根源划到了靠近内心最深处的地方。内心深处那些涌动的能量是属于你自己的，你只要想办法协调它们就行。而对于陀思妥耶夫斯基来说，它们来自别的地方。这其实有可能是圣灵的声音在你体内呼喊。这是一种截然不同的心理学观点，但肯定对现代精神分析法有所贡献。

Yuri Corrigan: The other thing that Dostoevsky contributed is that he understood that there was a wound and that wound was something that had to be revisited and that there are bodies that are rotting in our unconsciousness and that if we leave them there, we will become fragmented beings that create a nightmare in the world around us. And all of this is, you know, almost like a direct path from there to 20th century psychoanalysis.

尤里·科里根：陀思妥耶夫斯基做出的另一个贡献是，他清楚人们内心有创伤，而且我们必须回顾这个创伤，审视我们无意识中腐烂崩坏的记忆，否则我们就会支离破碎，为世界带来噩梦。所有这些几乎直接影响到了20世纪的精神分析法。

Zachary Davis: How did his work make its way through culture? How did it influence other movements? How does the world look differently because of this work?

扎克里·戴维斯：陀思妥耶夫斯基的作品是如何传播到别的文化的？它如何影响了其他运动？这个作品如何改变了世界？

Yuri Corrigan: So we can start with existentialism, right? We could start with the existentialists. So what Satre loved about Dostoyevsky and took from Dostoevsky was that Dostoevsky was interested in the abandonment by God of modern people. And so he said that that was the starting point of existentialism. But I think there's a lot more that Dostoevsky contributed to existentialism than that. This theory of radical responsibility in some ways is central to the existentialists. The idea that I am responsible for everything. I think it's the direct opposite when you read it and Sarte from what Dostoevsky intended. But I think that just reading Dostoevsky was one of the things that gave birth to some of these ideas.

尤里·科里根：我们可以先从存在主义说起。萨特非常喜欢陀思妥耶夫斯基的一个观点，并且将它继承了下来。陀思妥耶夫斯基很关注现代人被上帝抛弃这个命题。萨特说这就是存在主义的起源。不过我觉得，陀思妥耶夫斯基对存在主义的贡献远远不止这一点。从某些方面看，这种激进的责任理论是存在主义者的核心。这种理论认为，“我”要为所有事情负责。不过我觉得，萨特从中得到的观点与陀思妥耶夫斯基想要表达的恰恰相反。但毫无疑问，陀思妥耶夫斯基是催生这些观点的因素之一。

Zachary Davis: Another way this novel has had a strong influence on existentialism comes from a passage in the story when Ivan asserts that if there is no God, then everything is permitted.

扎克里·戴维斯：这部小说对存在主义的另一个影响源于小说中的一段话。小说中，伊凡断言，如果没有上帝，那么所有事情都是被允许的。

Yuri Corrigan: Huge moment for world philosophy right there, you know, the idea that, OK, well, what do I do if there are no larger moral horizons? What do I do if there is nothing to build my existence on? If there is no root of me, then I have to become my own root. And Dostoevsky sees that as a disease. He sees that as a modern pathology, that people are trying to drink their own blood to nourish themselves. They're trying to become gods over others. They're going to make themselves tyrants over others.

尤里·科里根：这是世界哲学史上的重要时刻。如果没有更宏观的道德概念，那我会怎么做？如果我失去了存在于世的根基，那我会怎么做？如果我没有了自己的根基，那我必须成为自己的根基。但陀思妥耶夫斯基觉得这很病态。他把这看作一种现代疾病。人们试图饮自己的血来滋养自己，试图成为凌驾于万物之上的神。他们要让自己成为凌驾于万物之上的君王。

Zachary Davis: The Brothers Karamazov and Dostoevsky’s other novels also dramatically influenced the writers who followed him.

扎克里·戴维斯：《卡拉马佐夫兄弟》和陀思妥耶夫斯基的其他小说也极大地影响了他之后的作家。

Yuri Corrigan: The footprint of his influence on the 20th century is, you know, you read Faulkner, it's there on every page. Virginia Woolf was fascinated by Dostoevsky and particularly by his, by the soul that she saw you just like this, she calls it like this thick liquid, this icky liquid that, like, flows through all the characters. You know, you have Proust who wrote about Dostoevsky, was deeply influenced by Dostoevsky. You have, you know, the I mean, the list would go on and on and on. And I think that the idea is just the novel, you know, David Foster Wallace based Infinite Jest on Brothers Karamazov, you know, goes all the way up to now.

尤里・科里根：它对20世纪的影响很大。在福克纳的书里，每一页都有都有它的影子。弗吉尼亚·伍尔夫也很喜欢陀思妥耶夫斯基，尤其是他笔下人物的内心世界。她说，仿佛有一股粘稠的液体流经书中角色的身躯。普鲁斯特也写过陀思妥耶夫斯基，也深受他的影响。我还能列举出很多人。

Yuri Corrigan: The idea of a novel of vast ambition. The idea of a novel that can really try to answer the, you know, the most, you know, the most unanswerable questions, the kinds of questions that philosophy ultimately can't really get at. You can get, you know, you can ask the question of innocent suffering is, like I said before, but if you actually have a child dying in the novel and you feel that this is not just a device on the part of the author, but that he's lived through this as well.

尤里・科里根：这部小说雄心勃勃，想要回答一些最难以解答的问题、那些哲学都无法解释的问题。哲学中，你也可以提出为什么无辜的小孩会受苦。但在小说里，如果有个孩子去世了，你会觉得这不仅仅是作者写作上的安排，也是他的亲身经历。

Zachary Davis: Now, I wanted to come back to something you mentioned before, which is that, like our own day, Dostoyevsky was extremely concerned about a culture war, a war between, I guess, traditionalists and progressives. And what I've heard you say is that, you know, he told the progressives. You're by, you're trying to, you know, save humanity by changing human nature or believing that human nature can be changed, and you are living in a naive fantasy where the world and human beings can be perfected. I smite to you and exhort you to stop abstractly loving humanity and try to love actual human beings.

扎克里·戴维斯：现在，我想回过头谈一谈你之前提到的东西。陀思妥耶夫斯基非常关注那场文化论战，一场传统主义者和进步人士之间的论战。到了今天，我们还是有类似的论战。您刚刚说，进步人士拯救人类的方式是改变个体、或是相信他们可以改变。他们怀揣着天真的幻想，认为世界和人类可以变得完美。但陀思妥耶夫斯基的建议是，不要再爱抽象的全人类，要努力去爱真正的个体。

Zachary Davis: And that his overall remedy for the culture war was for everyone to take equal responsibility for suffering. It tends to be especially meaningful to religious skeptics or atheists and agnostics who read this and for the very first time, get a glimpse of the power of religious life and thought and begin to wonder if. You know, the Enlightenment is not, in fact, the very best way to orient one's thinking in the world.

扎克里·戴维斯：他对文化论战的总体解决办法是，面对苦难，每个人都要承担同等的责任。这种观点往往对宗教怀疑论者、无神论者和不可知论者特别有意义。读者读完这本书后，会第一次发现宗教生活和宗教思想的力量，开始怀疑自己以前的想法。要知道，启蒙运动其实并不是世界上最好的思想的基础。

Yuri Corrigan:I totally agree with you that I love it in class. I teach a course in The Brothers Karamazov and I always love it in class. And I pray and I pray. I just I just hope that the students in class are going to be the ones who are atheists, who are, you know, deeply committed to kind of rational thought and progress and all that kind of stuff, because these are the people that these novels were written for. You know, that was Dostoevsky’s crowd and that was his readership.

尤里·科里根：我完全同意你的观点，我喜欢在课堂上讲课。我在课堂上教《卡拉马佐夫兄弟》，也很喜欢将这本书。我特别希望能启发到那些信奉无神论者的学生，因为这部小说就是为这些人写的。他们深深执着于理性思考、进步等所有这些东西。他们是陀思妥耶夫斯基的目标读者。

Yuri Corrigan:And, you know, I've had a couple of students in my office say, like, I didn't, I never knew that God wasn't this architect in the sky that like wolves over the world, I didn't know that religious people weren't that stupid, you know, like and now I'm understanding that there's like this power in things. And maybe it's not like intellectual cowardice, or maybe is not to be like, oh, I need the consolations of God because God is not consolation. Maybe the cowardice is like, I don't want to deal with having a soul. So I say that I don't know. And that's just like, you know, then you start seeing, like, how this is not just about, oh, you know, stop thinking, enjoy your life, become part of the fall.

尤里·科里根：有几个学生曾在我办公室说，他们从来不知道上帝并不一个高高在上、冷眼旁观的建造者，也从来不知道信教的人并不笨，如今他们才知道宗教是有力量的。也许信教者并不像知识分子想象的那么懦弱，也不是要靠上帝慰藉自己，因为上帝不是这样的。也许真正的懦弱是不想面对人拥有灵魂这一事实，于是才说自己不知道这些。于是接下来你就会看到，有人停止思考，沉迷于享乐，自甘堕落。

Yuri Corrigan: That's not, it's a very, it's a much more challenging, ambitious program. And you asked another really important question there, I think, is that, you know, it sounds like the Dostoevsky is just berating the progressives at this time. But, you know, I think that his message is the same for both sides of the culture.

尤里·科里根：陀思妥耶夫斯基的计划更具挑战，也更雄心勃勃。他问了另一个非常重要的问题，听起来像是在斥责当时的进步人士，但其实他把文化论战的双方摆在了一样的位置。

Yuri Corrigan:What's so fascinating in the second part of The Brothers Karamazov is that Dmitri, I won't I probably shouldn't spoil the novel, but everybody, OK, let's do it this way. Everybody during the trial is 100 percent sure of whether he's guilty or not and whether they believe in it or not is completely dictated by their personal politics. There's a culture war. There are two sides to the culture war, and everybody believes based only on what their political outlook is. And it's scary because it means that our whole concept of truth, without us knowing it, is dictated by our hatred for a certain kind of people.

尤里·科里根：在《卡拉马佐夫兄弟》的第二部分中，最引人注目的是德米特里。我应该不会剧透吧。要不这么说吧，审判中，每个人都百分之百地相信德米特里有罪或是没有罪，而他们的观点完全取决于他们的政治立场。这就是一场文化之战，交战的双方是两种对文化的观点，每一方的观点都基于他们的政治见解。这很可怕，因为这意味着我们对事实的理解无意间取决于我们对某类人的仇恨。

Yuri Corrigan: And the more I notice, like, you know, just kind of like living in our current moment in the United States, I notice that people are less for their cause as they are against the other cause. And so politics is often a kind of rejection of somebody else, the kind of hatred of somebody else, the demonization of somebody else.

尤里·科里根：就拿如今的美国来说，我注意到人们越来越少地坚持自己的想法，更喜欢于反对别人的想法。于是政治往往就变成了对他人的排挤、憎恶与丑化。

Yuri Corrigan: And I think what disturbs me as a psychologist, as a philosopher, as a writer, what he's asking us to do is to be vast, which is hard, you know, it's like instead of just being one arm of a dialectic of a political dialectic, become the whole of that dialectic, really find out what the people you hate because you know, the person you hate is the most important person in your life, because that's the part of yourself that you have tried to excise and put onto that person.

尤里·科里根：陀思妥耶夫斯基告诉我们要开阔起来，作为一个心理学家、哲学家和作家，我对此深感不安，毕竟这很难实现。他提醒我们不应该仅仅成为某个政治立场的拥趸，而是应该全面看待所有立场，真正找到你讨厌的人。要知道，你讨厌的人是你生命中最重要的人，因为你想要剥离、想要甩到这个人身上的，其实也是你自我的一部分。

Yuri Corrigan: And it means it's howling out from within you and it wants to be integrated. And then you feel the pleasure of hatred. Beware the pleasure of hatred, because the pleasure of hatred is the hatred for that part of yourself that you do not want to admit you have. And so the novel's asking us, and this is what each character has, that it goes through each character goes through this kind of this discovery of an inward vastness, you know, that includes the father that they hate. That has to be part of you as well.

尤里·科里根：这部分自我会从你心底倾泻出来，想要凝聚在一起。你会感受到仇恨的快乐，但小心仇恨带给你的快感，因为它其实是你对那部分不愿意承认的自我的憎恶。《卡拉马佐夫兄弟》追问着我们，探索着每一个角色复杂而又广阔的内心世界。他们内心深处还藏着一个他们所憎恶的父亲，但这也是他们的一部分。

Yuri Corrigan: And so I think, you know, it's one thing to say it and it's another thing to write a genius novel that brings us directly into that problem and asks us to become vast and kind of breaks us open from within. And so, you know, Dostoevsky was powerless to stop what was happening in the world around him, but he generated the antibodies. That's what literature is, you know, for what was happening to that.

尤里·科里根：不过说出来是一件事，写出一部精彩绝伦的小说，让我们身临其境地感受这个问题，变得开阔起来，改变内心，不再封闭。陀思妥耶夫斯基其实无力解决周遭正在发生的事情，但他创造出了一个抗体。这就是文学对于周遭世界的意义。

Yuri Corrigan:It's not just the left was tearing the culture apart. The culture was actively tearing itself apart. You have the, you know, the whole legacy of serfdom. These were problems that they couldn't deal with. You had a virus that couldn't be treated. It left its antibodies in this deep text that we can all read. And so here's our opportunity. You know, we read it. Maybe we won't tear each other apart in the same way. Maybe like maybe there's this principle that came from the 19th century, you know, this idea of vastness, of becoming broad, allowing space for your enemy inside of yourself. You know, maybe we'll get it from Dostoevsky.

尤里·科里根：摧毁旧文化的不仅有进步人士，还有文化自身。他们无力解决农奴制遗留下来的问题。这就好比，体内出现了一个无法清除的病毒，在这个我们都可以阅读的小说里，作者留下了它的抗体。这就是我们的机会。我们阅读这部小说后，也许不会像从前一样互相攻讦，也许会继承这部19世纪小说所宣扬的原则，变得开阔起来，不再对我们的对手视而不见。或许这就是我们从陀思妥耶夫斯基身上学到的。

Zachary Davis: No healthy culture is completely static. We should constantly look for ways to improve ourselves and our way of life. And there will always be the tension of old versus new. That's a good thing! That tension can keep us anchored while allowing new ideas to revitalize us. But Dostoevsky knew that meaningful change, real progress, is much harder than political slogans or new legislation. Because that kind of change happens not in the bright light of the rational public sphere, but in the dark, complicated terrain of the human heart.

扎克里·戴维斯：没有哪种健康的文化是完全不变的。我们应该不断寻找改善自己和生活方式的方法。新旧思想之间永远会有碰撞，这是好事。这种碰撞让我们可以一直扎根于旧文化，同时也接受新文化带来的新活力。但陀思妥耶夫斯基明白，有意义的改变、真正的进步，比喊政治口号或确立新的法典要难得多，因为这种改变并不出现在理性公共领域的明灯之下，而是出现在幽暗、复杂的人心之中。

Zachary Davis: Writ Large is a production of Ximalaya. Writ Large is produced by Jack Pombriant, Liza French, and me, Zachary Davis. Script editing is by Galen Beebe. We get help from Feiran Du, Ariel Liu and Monica Zhang. Our theme song is by Ian Coss. Don’t miss an episode. Subscribe today in the Ximalaya app. Thanks for listening. See you next time.

扎卡里·戴维斯：本节目由喜马拉雅独家制作播出。感谢您的收听，我们下期再见！