【英文翻译版48】克里斯多夫·卡普佐拉：《广岛》

Who’s John Hersey?

约翰·赫西是何许人？

Zachary Davis: In 1945, much of the world was at war. The chief Allied powers of Great Britain, France, the United States, the Soviet Union, and China were fighting the Axis powers of Germany, Italy, and Japan.

扎克里·戴维斯：1945年，世界上大部分国家都卷入了战争。交战双方为英国、法国、美国、苏联、中国等组成的反法西斯同盟和德国、意大利、日本等组成的轴心国。

Zachary Davis: In August of 1945, the United States carried out the largest, and final attack of the war. American soldiers dropped two atomic bombs on Japan. They landed on two cities: Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Less than a year later, American journalist John Hersey traveled to Hiroshima and interviewed survivors of the bombing.

扎克里·戴维斯：1945年8月，美国以一场最大规模的袭击结束了战争。美国军方在日本上空投下了两颗原子弹，轰炸了广岛和长崎。不到一年后，美国记者约翰·赫西前往广岛，采访了原子弹爆炸中的幸存者。

Christopher Capozzola: And each one of them experiences it as—what one of them called “a noiseless flash”—that they would have suddenly experienced incredibly bright light and often complete silence, which is a kind of a sound vacuum that would have resulted from the bomb’s explosion. And only then followed by incredible noise, incredible heat and fire, and the extent of which would vary depending on how close they were. My name's Chris Capozzola. I'm a professor of History at MIT.

克里斯多夫·卡普佐拉：就像其中一名受访者说的那样，他们看到了“一阵无声的闪光”。突然之间，光线变得异常刺眼，周围陷入寂静——这是原子弹爆炸瞬间出现的真空现象。之后，他们听到了巨大的声响，感受到了强烈的热量和熊熊的火焰，感受的强烈程度和距离爆炸中心的远近息息相关。我是克里斯多夫·卡普佐拉，是麻省理工学院的历史学教授。

Zachary Davis: When the United States dropped these bombs on Japan, they ended WWII. The Allied powers won the war. The bombs ended years of fighting and brought a period of peace to the world. This peace narrative told only one side of the story—the side of the Allied forces and their families waiting at home.

扎卡里·戴维斯：美国在日本投下了原子弹，结束了二战。反法西斯同盟取得了胜利。原子弹结束了多年的战争，为世界带来了和平。反法西斯同盟的战士凯旋，与家人团聚。这是其中一部分人宣扬的观点。

Zachary Davis: But there was another side to the story. This new weapon was extremely powerful and destructive, and the world had not fully realized its implications. With multiple countries developing nuclear weapons of their own, the world needed to see the other side of the story. And John Hersey aimed to tell it. In his article titled Hiroshima, originally published in a 1946 issue of The New Yorker magazine, Herseyshared the personal stories of six civilians who survived the bombing.

扎克里·戴维斯：但这故事还有另一个版本。这种新武器威力极大、破坏性极强，然而世界人民还没有完全意识到它引发的后果。渐渐地，多国开始研发核武器，人们不能再对这些后果一无所知。于是约翰·赫西打算告诉人们这些情况。1946年，他先是在《纽约客》杂志上写了篇名叫《广岛》的文章，讲述了在广岛原子弹爆炸中幸存下来的六位普通人的故事。

Christopher Capozzola: They're all doctors, clergy, women. They're not people who played any role in the dropping of the bomb. There are not any people who had fought against any American readers’ sons in battle. And I think that's important for the project of humanizing the Japanese that he's embarked on.

克里斯多夫·卡普佐拉：他们有的是医生，有的是神职人员，有的是女性。此前他们与这场爆炸毫无瓜葛——他们不曾在战场上与美国士兵厮杀。我觉得，这样的身份对展现日本平民人性的一面非常重要。

Zachary Davis: Welcome to Writ Large, a podcast about how books change the world. I’m Zachary Davis. In each episode, I talk with one of the world’s leading scholars about one book that changed the course of history. For this episode, I sat down with Professor Christopher Capozzola to discuss John Hersey’s Hiroshima.

扎卡里·戴维斯：欢迎收听：100本改变你和世界的书，在这里我们为大家讲述改变世界的书籍。我是扎卡里·戴维斯。每一集，我都会和一位世界顶尖学者探讨一本影响历史进程的书。在本集，我和克里斯多夫·卡普佐拉教授一起讨论约翰·赫西的《广岛》。

Zachary Davis: John Hersey was born in China in 1914 to two American Protestant missionaries. He moved from China to the United States when he was ten years old. He went to prep school in New England and then studied at Yale University.

扎卡里·戴维斯：1914年，约翰·赫西出生于中国，父母都是美国新教传教士。十岁时，他从中国回到美国，在新英格兰读了预科学校，后来赴耶鲁大学学习。

Christopher Capozzola: He came out of a certain world of journalism called The Time and Life Empire. He followed the same path as the editor of Time magazine, Henry Luce, and gone into this world of Time and Life, which was designed to bring to ordinary Americans the news with a human angle. And Time did it through storytelling, and Life did it through images. And that's the world that Hersey was writing in even before WWII. And then the war comes, and he very quickly dives into war journalism and war correspondence, both in Europe and in the Pacific.

克里斯多夫·卡普佐拉：他的新闻生涯起步于《时代》周刊和《生活》周刊。他追寻着《时代》周刊主编亨利·卢斯的脚步，供职于这两家周刊。两家周刊旨在为美国百姓带去颇具温情的新闻，《时代》周刊的方式是讲故事，而《生活》周刊的方式是展示图片。这就是二战前赫西所在的新闻媒体的情况。二战爆发后，赫西立刻前往欧洲和太平洋地区报道战况。

Zachary Davis: Hersey made a name for himself as a journalist covering the second World War. He won a Pulitzer Prize for his 1942 book Men on Bataan which was about General Douglas MacArthur and the Battle of Bataan in WWII. When the war was over, Hersey started looking for something new to cover.

扎克里·戴维斯：赫西因报道二战战况而出名。他于1942年出版的《巴丹半岛的男人》获得了普利策奖。这本书讲述了二战中道格拉斯·麦克阿瑟将军和巴丹半岛战役的故事。二战结束后，赫西开始寻找新的、可供报道的内容。

Christopher Capozzola: And he convinces the magazine editors at The New Yorker to send him to Japan.

克里斯多夫·卡普佐拉：他说服了《纽约客》杂志的编辑把他派往日本。

Zachary Davis: How do his ideas of writing this work in a particular way come about?

扎克里·戴维斯：他为什么想要以别样的方式写这篇报道？

Christopher Capozzola: It's very hard for us to reconstruct this story because Hersey himself was very private. But we do know that he didn't set out to write this book this way. He thought he might talk to American military officials or even Japanese military officials. Those avenues were very quickly cut off for him. That censorship during the U.S. occupation of Japan was very strict, and there was no way to do that.

克里斯多夫·卡普佐拉：我们很难探究原因，因为赫西本人讳莫如深。不过我们知道，他一开始并没有打算这么写。他原来计划采访美国或日本军官，但找不到采访的渠道。美军驻日期间，这方面的审查非常严格，所以他没能如愿。

Christopher Capozzola: But by 1946, which was when Hersey was doing most of his reporting, the actual sort of impact of the atomic bomb on Hiroshima was sort of a done, an old story. So he got permission to go to Hiroshima itself, to the city, and he didn't quite know what he was looking for there. But once he got there, I think something clicked.

克里斯多夫·卡普佐拉：到了1946年，也就是赫西进行大部分采访的时候，原子弹对广岛的影响已经不是什么新鲜话题了。所以他才得以获准去广岛采访。他原来还不知道要去那儿寻找什么素材。但我猜到那儿之后，他就豁然开朗了。

What led to the decision to drop atomic bombs?

美军为什么要投下原子弹？

Zachary Davis: Hersey was among some of the first reporters in post-war Japan. He spent time there during the winter of 1945-46, reporting on the reconstruction of the country for The New Yorker. After his initial reporting, Hersey returned home to the United States with an idea: to tell the story of the atomic bombs through the experiences of Japanese survivors. Once his editor approved the story, Hersey returned to Hiroshima in May of 1946 and spent three weeks interviewing survivors. Could you tell us broadly what led to the decision to drop these two bombs?

扎卡里·戴维斯：赫西是战后第一批在日本的记者。1945年至1946年的冬天，他在那儿待了一段时间，为《纽约客》报道战后日本的重建情况。在完成最初一批报道后，赫西回到美国，开始萌生出一个想法，想要通过日本幸存者的经历来展现原子弹爆炸的情况。他的编辑认可了这个想法，于是1946年5月，赫西赶回广岛，花了三周时间采访幸存者。您能跟我们大致讲讲美军为什么决定投下这两颗原子弹吗？

Christopher Capozzola: From the very beginning of the war, American scientists and military officials wanted to use every technological development that they could. And the idea of developing an atomic bomb was very quickly adopted as a goal that was initially thought to be used against Germany. Germany surrenders before the bomb is developed and tested, first in July of 1945. And by that point, logic of bringing the bomb to use and using it against Japan is unstoppable. So, it's tested in mid-July in 1945 in New Mexico and then dropped first on August 6th in Hiroshima and then a second bomb on August 9th, 1945, in Nagasaki.

克里斯多夫·卡普佐拉：战争之初，美国科学家和军官就想运用各种技术，研制原子弹的想法很快被采纳了。原子弹本来是用来对付德国的，但德国在原子弹研制成功及试验前就投降了。1945年7月，原子弹首次试验成功，于是美国转而想要用它对付日本。1945年7月中旬，原子弹在新墨西哥州试爆成功；8月6日，第一颗原子弹投在了广岛；8月9日，第二颗原子弹投在了长崎。

Christopher Capozzola: There was, as many historians will say, no one moment at which America decided to drop the bomb. There were very early on decisions to develop it, which always implied that it was being developed in order to be used. But as soon as it was used, it generated a new conversation that was political, moral, ethical, and religious about what it meant that it had been used. And that's the conversation that Hersey is participating in a year afterward.

克里斯多夫·卡普佐拉：很多历史学家会说，美国并不是在某个时候突然决定投下原子弹的。很早的时候，他们就决定要研发它，这就意味着它一定会投入使用。而一旦原子弹被使用，就会引发一个政治、道德、伦理、宗教方面的新话题，那就是使用了原子弹意味着什么。在原子弹爆炸后的一年，赫西探讨了这个话题。

Zachary Davis: And so, were the justifications—for example, the ones that I heard all growing up and continue to hear, that the Japanese army would never have surrendered and that, you know, millions more lives would have been lost—was that story told through the newspaper, through press releases, you know, by the American government, by media supporters?

扎克里·戴维斯：我从小到大一直听到的一个说法：如果不投原子弹，日本就永远不会投降，数百万的生命都将逝去。美国报纸等媒体、美国政府、媒体的支持者是不是都以此来为使用原子弹而正名的呢？

Christopher Capozzola: That story was told, not in August of 1945 when, of course, its use was a complete surprise to the world, but that story develops very quickly. And in some ways, there's a counter-narrative that develops against—even Hersey's book, Hiroshima—developed in large part by Henry Stimson, who had been secretary of war during the Second World War and played a key role in the dropping of the atomic bomb.

克里斯多夫·卡普佐拉：媒体和政府确实这么说过，不过并不是在1945年8月说的，当时全世界还惊讶于美军竟然使用了原子弹。但不久这个说法就流传开了。而且从某些方面看，当时出现了一些反叙事的论调，甚至赫西的《广岛》中都有这种论调。宣扬这种论调的主要是亨利·史汀生，他在二战期间担任美国战争部长，在投掷原子弹一事中发挥了关键作用。

Christopher Capozzola: And Hersey gives all the arguments that we are now familiar with, that it brought the war to a faster end, that it prevented a land invasion of Japan. Those counterfactuals may or may not be true. We'll never know. But we do know that that story develops at the same time that another conversation is going on about what does it mean for America that we have developed and used this bomb.

克里斯多夫·卡普佐拉：赫西给出了种种我们如今非常熟悉的说法——原子弹让二战更快结束，结束了日军在地面战场上的负隅顽抗。这些说法或真或假，我们不得而知。但我们知道，在这个说法传播的同时，另一场讨论也在进行着，那就是研制并使用原子弹对美国来说意味着什么。

Zachary Davis: And could you help us understand the history or the context of attacking civilians in warfare?

扎克里·戴维斯：您可以跟我们讲讲以往战争中袭击平民的情况吗？

Christopher Capozzola: It is certainly the case that there were norms against targeting civilians in the laws of war which were not uniformly adhered to and were not uniformly thought to be applicable in non-Western contexts. So, in European wars of colonialism and U.S. wars of native dispossession, the assault on civilian populations was quite regularly practiced.

克里斯多夫·卡普佐拉：战争法中有禁止袭击平民的条款，但在实际中，这些条款并没能被一致遵循，也没有被一致认为适用于非西方国家。在欧洲殖民主义战争和美国白人对印第安人的战争中，袭击平民的做法都相当常见。

Christopher Capozzola: So, in some ways, the First and then, of course, the more particularly, the Second World War brings to the West practices that it had been, already been undertaking in other contexts. But aerial warfare and aerial bombardment, of course, then make this even more devastating. And that, for many people, brings levels of terror that actually sort of amplify the destructiveness of war.

克里斯多夫·卡普佐拉：两次世界大战、尤其是二战期间，西方更是史无前例地运用这种做法。空战、空袭等方式让袭击更具毁灭性。对许多人来说，这无疑让战争更恐怖、更有破坏性。

Zachary Davis: And so they tested the first operational atomic bomb in New Mexico in July of 1945 and the military and government officials who witnessed this still thought it was appropriate to drop this on a human city.

扎克里·戴维斯：1945年7月，美国在新墨西哥州试爆了第一颗原子弹。目睹了试爆结果的军方与政府官员仍然觉得可以将原子弹扔向一座住满了人的城市。

Christopher Capozzola: Yes. There was some hesitation among some of the atomic scientists at Los Alamos who advocated to, indirectly, eventually to the new president, Harry Truman, and to suggest that perhaps the Japanese could be warned about the bomb or that it would be, it could be dropped in some sort of, in the middle of nowhere, essentially, to demonstrate its force. And that decision was, or that proposal was never really taken seriously. And so I think it was, you know, like I said, it was built to be dropped.

克里斯多夫·卡普佐拉：洛斯阿拉莫斯实验室的一些原子科学家对使用原子弹非常犹豫，他们委婉地建议新任总统哈里·杜鲁门，可以仅仅向日本发出投掷原子弹的警告，或是将原子弹投掷在荒郊野外，展示美国的军事实力即可。但这个建议并没有被认真考虑。就像我之前说的，建造原子弹就是为了投入使用。

Zachary Davis: So, let's now, tell us about the actual dropping of the bomb and what it did to the city.

扎克里·戴维斯：您跟我们讲讲原子弹投掷时的真实情况、还有它对这座城市的影响吧。

Christopher Capozzola: Our best understanding of what that was like comes from John Hersey himself, that the official accounts were really uncertain, that in part because Americans didn't want to reveal too much information, besides, you know, the awesome power of the weapon itself. And Japanese actually wanted to cover some of this information from their own population, where they announced merely that, you know, “a new type of bomb was used, details are being investigated”, in a very terse one paragraph news account in Japanese newspapers.

克里斯多夫·卡普佐拉：最好的了解方式是看约翰·赫西的报道。官方的说法并不明确，一是因为美国官方不想透露太多信息，二是原子弹的威力实在是太大了。日本政府想要向日本民众隐瞒一些真相。他们仅仅在日本报纸上发布了一则简短的消息，声称“敌军使用了一种新式炸弹，详情仍在调查中”。

Christopher Capozzola: But the bomb was dropped from a B-29 by a small crew that very quickly left the bombing site. So, that's what it looks like from the top down. What it was like from the ground up is, in fact, how Hiroshima opens as a book.

克里斯多夫·卡普佐拉：原子弹从B-29轰炸机上投下，参与轰炸任务的机组成员很快离开了爆炸现场。从空中看，整件事的经过是这样的。那从地面上看又是如何？《广岛》一书从开头便给我们描绘了当时的情况。

What’s the implications of the bomb?

爆炸引发了什么后果？

Zachary Davis: In Hiroshima, Hersey takes a new approach to storytelling, which becomes the foundation for a type of reporting called New Journalism. This approach illustrates an event through the subjective experiences of individuals, rather than purely objective facts. Hersey knew the power in letting those who were near the explosions share their personal experiences.

扎克里·戴维斯：在《广岛》中，赫西采用了一种新的叙述手法，为“新新闻主义”报道形式奠定了基础。这种手法是通过个体主观经历、而不是客观事实来叙述某个事件。赫西清楚，让这些亲历爆炸的人讲述自己的经历，会带来多大的震撼。

Christopher Capozzola: He doesn't in his book ever tell you how many people died. He never gives you a number. He tells you what happened to particular people who were in particular places. Of course, all of the people that Hersey interviewed were far enough from the bomb center that they survived. You know, tens of thousands did not. And so in that sense, we, you know, we know their stories, but they, all of them reflected on the sound and the silence of it and also on the flash of light.

克里斯多夫·卡普佐拉：他在书中没有告诉你死了多少人。他从来没有给你一个数字，只是告诉你在某地某人经历了什么事。当然，赫西采访的所有人都离爆炸中心较远，否则根本不可能幸存。数以万计的人在爆炸中失去了生命。从这个意义上看，我们听到的仅仅是幸存者的故事，还有许多人永远消失在了爆炸后的死寂、巨响和火光中。

Zachary Davis: So, although it's probably impossible to know for certain, what are the estimates of how many people died in, from the immediate bombing?

扎克里·戴维斯：或许没有确切的数字，但您估计大概多少人在爆炸后当场丧生？

Christopher Capozzola: The most accurate estimates that we have actually come from the U.S. government in the accounting that they did based on wartime population and sort of hospital counts in the immediate aftermath of the war that estimated about 80,000 people were killed in the immediate dropping of the bomb.

克里斯多夫·卡普佐拉：最准确的估算结果来自美国政府。他们根据战时人口和战后医院数据，推算出原子弹爆炸后约有8万人当场丧生。

Christopher Capozzola: The harder number to calculate is the lifetime impact of exposure to radiation and so on, which we certainly know, you know, lasted for years and decades, in fact, among some of the people that Hersey interviewed. And we know from that that people within about a half a mile of the epicenter of the bomb, many of them would have died instantly through the intense heat of the explosion itself. They would have, in fact, maybe not even perceived the explosion, they would have died so quickly. And beyond that, the thousands of others would have died through the heat, through burning.

克里斯多夫·卡普佐拉：然而更难以估量的是爆炸引发的核辐射对人们的长期影响。我们知道这些辐射会影响人体几年、甚至几十年。在赫西采访的人当中，有些就饱受核辐射的折磨。距离爆炸中心半英里以内的人大多当场死于爆炸产生的极端高温。死亡来得如此之快，甚至他们都还没察觉发生了爆炸。除此之外，还有成千上万的人在高温与焰火的折磨下停止了呼吸。

Christopher Capozzola: He gives an example, very evocative, one of a man who was wearing suspenders and, you know, is scarred more intensely where, less intensely where the suspenders were. These kinds of stories help us imagine the physical trauma of the bombing.

克里斯多夫·卡普佐拉：赫西举了一个让人印象深刻的例子。有个男人穿着背带，背带盖住的皮肤损伤程度远不如没盖住的皮肤。读完这些故事，我们不难想象爆炸给人们的身体带来多少伤害。

Zachary Davis: So let's now learn more about Hersey's work. So, was this originally a magazine project?

扎克里·戴维斯：我们来进一步了解一下赫西的作品吧。这本书原本是杂志社的一个项目，对吗？

Christopher Capozzola: Yes. So the book actually starts as a magazine assignment to find, in some ways, a kind of a human story of the dropping of the bomb. And Hersey's account as he writes it up, it comes in longer than anyone expected, it comes in at about 30,000 words, which is a lot longer than a magazine article. But Hersey really wanted to tell these six contrasting stories and to follow them through to a full year after the dropping of the bomb. And he finds through contacts six individuals—four men and two women.

克里斯多夫·卡普佐拉：没错。这本书源于杂志社派给赫西的一项任务，那就是在原子弹爆炸地搜寻打动人心的故事。然而报道完成后，篇幅比所有人预期的都要长，大约有三万字，远远超过一篇杂志文章的篇幅。赫西很想讲六个截然不同的故事，想要讲述爆炸后一整年里他们的遭遇。他联系到了六个人——四个男人和两个女人。

Christopher Capozzola: Two are doctors. Two of the men are ministers. One is a Methodist minister, a Japanese person who's a Methodist minister. The other is a German exile living in Japan during the war. And two women, one is an older woman, and one is a young woman who works in a military factory. Hersey does not speak Japanese. So, he's working with a translator for this entire project.

克里斯多夫·卡普佐拉：两位是医生；两位是神职人员，其中一位是日本卫理公会牧师，另一位战时从德国流亡到了日本。两位女性中，一位是年迈的老妇人，另一位是个年轻女子，在军工厂工作。赫西不会说日语，所以整个报道中都由一名翻译陪他完成工作。

Christopher Capozzola: And he sort of writes up this enormous account, sends it to his editors, you know, fully expecting for it to be rejected and thinking that, “Well, maybe I'll publish it as a book instead.” And then, of course, you know, this is one of the most famous stories in New Yorker reader history, right, is that they published the article as an entire issue of the magazine in August of 1946, one year after the dropping of the bomb. And that, too, was kept secret from the reading public. And so only a handful of people actually knew that this was going to be published in this way.

克里斯多夫·卡普佐拉：写完这个长篇报道后，他将文章寄给了编辑。他猜想编辑八成会拒绝刊登，还暗自思忖或许该把文章寄给出版商。后来，正如大家所熟知的那样，这篇报道成了《纽约客》史上最有名的文章之一，占据了1946年8月的几乎整期杂志。那时距离广岛事件过去整整一年。这一情况在刊登前完全对读者保密，只有少数人知道新一期会以这种方式出现在大家面前。

Christopher Capozzola: If you pick up the cover of the magazine, which you can find online, it's a drawing of a picnic, and it seems like a pleasant summer undertaking. But then you open it up and you realize what's inside.

克里斯多夫·卡普佐拉：你在网上可以找到这期杂志的封面，一眼看去，不过是一幅野餐的图画，俨然一派夏日美景，叫人心旷神怡。但翻开后，你会发现里面是什么内容。

Zachary Davis: And what was it like for The New Yorker readers? What kind of effect did this have on the public and, you know, kind of the immediate national reaction to it?

扎克里·戴维斯：《纽约客》的读者有什么感觉？这对大众有什么影响，美国读者反响如何？

Christopher Capozzola: It was an immediate sensation. It was, you know, by some measures still the most sought-after New Yorker magazine ever and, and was very quickly sort of shared in other formats, read over the radio to national audiences in its entirety, and very quickly turned into a book.

克里斯多夫·卡普佐拉：这期杂志轰动一时。从某种程度上看，时至今日它仍然是有史以来《纽约客》杂志中最受欢迎的一期。这篇报道也很快以其他形式传播开来，广播台为全美国听众从头到尾读了这篇报道，出版商也很快将它出版成了一本书。

Zachary Davis: Can you tell us a little bit more about the, you know, these people and their stories and how Hersey writes about them?

扎克里·戴维斯：您可以讲讲这些受访者和他们的故事吗？赫西是如何写他们的呢？

Christopher Capozzola: What Hersey does is he sort of tracks, in this incredibly matter of fact, deadpan style, what they did. And Hersey himself is not present in the book. He is playing the role of the objective reporter, which at a time just a year after this was our enemy, is in fact, not an objective thing to do at all.

克里斯多夫·卡普佐拉：赫西以极其写实、极其冰冷的笔调叙述了这些人的经历。赫西本人并没有出现在文章中，他仅仅是一个客观的报道者，报道着一年前敌国人们的故事。实际上他选择这样报道本身就已经不太客观。

Christopher Capozzola: But by writing in that objective, journalistic style and by focusing on the little detail—you know, so one of the young woman who he follows, Miss Sasaki is, you know, her foot is broken at the moment of the bombing when a bookshelf falls on her ankle—and Hersey uses a detail like that to make you think about, you know, what kind of a world do we live in that we treasure knowledge and destroy it? At the same time, those kinds of details, brief details about weather, about which street someone took.

克里斯多夫·卡普佐拉：赫西以客观的、新闻报道的方式记叙了这些事，聚焦于点点滴滴的细节。有个细节源自受访的一位年轻女子——佐佐木小姐。在爆炸的那一刻，书架倒了下来，把她的脚砸断了。赫西通过类似的细节让你思考，我们生活的这个世界为什么一边珍惜知识、又一边破坏知识。此外，他还描述了天气、某人走了哪条路等细节。

Christopher Capozzola: And that's key, I think, to getting American readers to stop reading this like the war propaganda that they've been reading for the last five years and start reading it like something else. And I think that's the most important thing that Hersey does, was in choosing, not so much who to write about, you know, they’re six almost random people, but how to write about them.

克里斯多夫·卡普佐拉：我觉得这很关键，因为这可以有效地促使美国读者不再阅读过去五年里美国政府宣扬战争的文章，转而阅读一些别的视角的内容。在我看来，这就是赫西做的最重要的事情。最重要是他以怎样的方式叙述这些人的故事，而不是他写了谁——毕竟这六个人几乎是随机选出来的。

How did Hiroshima contribute to anti-nuclear movement?

《广岛》如何推动了反核运动？

Zachary Davis: And so how did this change minds among its readers?

扎克里·戴维斯：《广岛》如何改变了读者的观念？

Christopher Capozzola: One way to find out is to see, you know, what did people say about it at the time. The New Yorker received hundreds of letters from readers and a historian, Paul Boyer, has gone through those letters at The New Yorker archives.

克里斯多夫·卡普佐拉：要想知道这一点，不妨看看当时的人们是怎么评价它的。《纽约客》杂志社收到了几百封读者来信，一位名叫保罗·博耶的历史学家在《纽约客》的资料库中翻阅了这些信件。

Christopher Capozzola: And what he was really struck by was the fact that people did not actually write in to say, “Oh, this is a terrible weapon, we should never use it again.” What they mostly said was, “Thank you for helping me understand this, and thank you for helping me understand the implications of this weapon.” And I think that's the way in which it changed Americans, which might not be what Hersey wanted or even what we might wish. It didn't make them opponents of war or of atomic weapons, but in fact reconciled them, Americans in particular, to what this power was and what this new atomic age was going to mean.

克里斯多夫·卡普佐拉：让他诧异的是，人们在信里说的不是“原子弹太可怕了，应该禁用”之类的话。他们说得最多的是：“谢谢你让我了解到了这些，让我知道了原子弹意味着什么。”我觉得它可能改变了美国人在这方面的观念，这可能是赫西和我们都不曾料到的。它没有让读者反对战争或是反对使用原子弹，但让他们、尤其是美国人意识到原子弹有怎样的威力、原子时代的到来意味着什么。

Zachary Davis: How did this work influence the broader conversation and debate about atomic weapons, about the atomic age?

扎克里·戴维斯：《广岛》如何影响了人们对原子能武器和原子时代的广泛探讨与争论呢？

Christopher Capozzola: Hiroshima participates in a debate that's going on in 1946 about what to do with atomic knowledge, which is a broader category than just atomic weapons, that Americans and the world knew that this bomb had been developed. They also knew that this technology could be put to many uses. And so there is a brief effort in the immediate aftermath of the war to explore peaceful and cooperative international uses for atomic knowledge. And there's a hope that this new organization called the United Nations might be the way to do this.

克里斯多夫·卡普佐拉：《广岛》发表的那一年，也就是1946年，美国掀起一场关于如何运用原子能技术的大讨论，讨论的范围不仅限于原子能武器。当时美国乃至全世界的人们都知道原子弹已经研制出来了，也清楚这种武器可以有多种用途。广岛事件后的一小段时间里，人们一度努力探索在国际范围内如何共同和平运用原子能技术。他们将推行此事的希望寄托于新成立的联合国。

Christopher Capozzola: And David Lilienthal, who had been the head of the Tennessee Valley Authority under FDR in the 1930s, is sort of put in charge of trying to find peaceful uses for atomic energy, but as the Cold War hardens in 1946 and 1947, this becomes almost impossible. And by 1948 and 1949, once the Soviets have exploded their own atomic device, cooperation around atomic knowledge is completely off the table.

克里斯多夫·卡普佐拉：20世纪30年代，罗斯福总统在位期间，大卫·利连塔尔担任田纳西河流域管理局局长。他曾受命负责探索和平利用原子能的办法。然而1946年至1947年，冷战开始了。1948年至1949年，苏联的第一颗原子弹试爆成功，国际原子能技术合作的希望也随之破灭。

Zachary Davis: Although Hersey’s Hiroshima didn’t have a strong political influence in the years immediately following publication, it got picked up again during the anti-nuclear movement of the 1980s.

扎克里·戴维斯：尽管赫西的《广岛》在出版后的几年里没有产生强烈的政治影响，但在20世纪80年代的反核运动中，它又被重新提及。

Christopher Capozzola:  And in that time period it is actually doing a lot of the work for readers that it didn't do in 1946. If in 1946 it reconciled Americans to the fact that there was now an atomic power, in the 1980s that helped explain to the world sort of what the implications of the bomb were.

克里斯多夫·卡普佐拉：在80年代，这本书在读者中起到了许多1946年不曾起到的作用。如果说，1946年它仅仅让美国人认识到世界上出现了一个原子能大国，那么在80年代，它向世界展现了原子弹引发的后果。

Christopher Capozzola: And you know, so this is the moment, for people who lived through the 1980s, this is the moment of the day after of, you know, sort of all kinds of, you know, fears of nuclear war during the late Cold War and also of the world's largest peace social movement, that the movement for The Nuclear Freeze, which was on both sides of the Iron Curtain in Europe and the United States, the 1983 March for the Freeze was the largest protest in American history before The Women's March in 2017, and Hiroshima was part of that. And in fact, Hersey writes a whole other chapter for the book in 1984. And I think that it just shows that this is a book that has a long life that spans the century.

克里斯多夫·卡普佐拉：对于生活在20世纪80年代的人来说，反核运动源于冷战后期人们对核战争的恐惧。它是世界上最大规模的和平运动，旨在呼吁冻结核武器，参与者包括欧洲与美国铁幕两端的多国民众。1983年，美国民众举行了呼吁冻结核武器的游行，这是2017年女性大游行前美国历史上规模最大的游行。而《广岛》一书对此功不可没。实际上，1984年，赫西为这本书新写了一整章内容。我觉得这恰恰说明，这本书有着超越时代的生命力。

Zachary Davis: The Nuclear Freeze campaign was a mass movement in the United States in the 1980s. Their goal was for the United States and the Soviet Union to agree to halt all production, testing, and deployment of nuclear weapons. And that Freeze movement did lead to policy changes and treaties. Is that correct?

扎克里·戴维斯：核武器冻结运动是20世纪80年美国的一场社会运动。它旨在呼吁美国和苏联停止所有核武器的生产、试验与部署。这场运动确实推动了政策的调整和条约的签订，是这样吗？

Christopher Capozzola: Yes. I mean, I think that the Nuclear Freeze movement never quite achieved its goals, but it certainly led to pressures to reduce the number of U.S. weapons that were stationed on European soil, and President Reagan took inspiration from it, partly from its content, partly also to block its momentum, to begin sort of greater dialogue with his Soviet counterparts, eventually with Mikhail Gorbachev, and that led to nuclear agreements that proved enduring until our current administration.

克里斯多夫·卡普佐拉：没错的。虽然核武器冻结运动的目标从未完全实现，但它确实施加了压力，让美国减少了部署在欧洲的核武器数量。里根总统一方面受到了运动的启发，另一方面也不想让运动继续闹大，于是和苏联进行了更广泛的会话，最终和米哈伊尔·戈尔巴乔夫会晤。这次会晤推动了双方签订限制核武器发展的协定，这些协定仍然被现任政府所遵守。

Zachary Davis: Is there still a recognizable international peace movement that tracks some of its heritage to the nuclear arms race and the battle against it?

扎克里·戴维斯：目前有没有哪个广为认可的国际和平运动延续着反对核军备竞赛的传统呢？

Christopher Capozzola: Absolutely. And some of that effort continued around nuclear, not only nuclear weapons, but also nuclear power, particularly in the wake of the explosions at Chernobyl, but also went into other forms of weapons such as landmines, chemical weapons, and biological weapons, and that are really sort of seeking to kind of keep these questions of warfare and technology on the table.

克里斯多夫·卡普佐拉：当然有。其中一些运动继续呼吁限核，而且不仅仅是限制核武器，还要限制使用核能。特别是在切尔诺贝利核事故之后，这样的呼吁声更多了。它们还呼吁限制使用其他形式的武器，如地雷、化学武器和生物武器。这些运动都在努力促使政府慎重考虑战争与技术的问题。

Christopher Capozzola: And I think is also a concern for today very much about what would be the implications of you know, sort of, non-human warfare, right? You know, sort of on unmanned aerial vehicles or drones, other kinds of technologies that may be developed without the kind of consideration of the implications of use as was also the case in 1945.

克里斯多夫·卡普佐拉：如今人们还很关注一个话题，那就是无人化战争会引发什么后果。人们担心会不会我们可能还没有认真思考运用无人驾驶飞行器、小型的无人机等技术的后果，就先把它们开发出来了。而这恰恰就是1945年出现的情况。

Christopher Capozzola: I think that we have no guarantees that norms against their use will persist unless we as a people—and not just from one country, but from all of them— continue to affirm that their use is beyond the norm, and particularly at a time in the United States and other countries where norms of lawful behavior are corroding.

克里斯多夫·卡普佐拉：我觉得要确保这些技术的应用规范能够一直得到遵守，我们就需要继续在必要之时点明其应用已经违反了规范，特别是现在当美国等国家越来越蔑视这些规范，我们更需要这么做。而且不仅仅是某个国家的人需要这么做，全世界的人都要携手起来。

Christopher Capozzola: I think that, you know, whether we owe it to the people who survived Hiroshima, the people who, you know, lived through WWII more generally, or the people who marched in 1983, you know, we need to sort of be more clear about that now because it could all happen really quite quickly. And once those norms, if norms around nuclear use failed, then there's no solution.

克里斯多夫·卡普佐拉：在我看来，无论我们觉得这些努力要不要追溯到广岛事件的幸存者、经历过二战的先辈或是参加1983年游行的先辈，我们都需要更清楚地知道这些努力有多么必要，因为有违规范的事情可能眨眼间就会发生。一旦限制核能应用的规范失效了，我们就无计可施了。

How did Hiroshima affect journalism?

《广岛》如何影响了新闻界？

Zachary Davis: I wonder if you could comment now on how did this work affect journalism more broadly as a field? And, you know, what influences do you see among journalists today?

扎克里·戴维斯：想问一下，《广岛》这本书如何影响了整个新闻业的发展？它对如今的新闻工作者有哪些影响？

Christopher Capozzola: Hersey influenced a generation of journalists who I think understood that a human story was the way into an enormous phenomenon. You find it in a lot of WWII coverage, the accounts of Ernie Pyle, who wrote about the Second World War, you know, following one soldier, following one town, one community was a way to humanize a global conflict. And that persists. And we now almost take that for granted, whereas for readers in the 1940s this was somewhat new.

克里斯多夫·卡普佐拉：赫西影响了一代新闻工作者，让他们发现可以从个体的故事切入，来讲述一个大规模的现象。这种手法在许多二战相关的报道中非常常见。比如二战战地记者厄尼·派尔就以某个士兵、某个城镇或某个群体为报道对象，展现世界大战中富有柔情的一面。这种手法一直沿用至今。如今我们对它习以为常，但对20世纪40年代的读者来说还很新鲜。

Christopher Capozzola: But I think we are in some ways still waiting for, you know, for someone to write, you know, a book like Hiroshima about the people who are on the other end of American drone strikes, of American war efforts in the 21st century.

克里斯多夫·卡普佐拉：但我觉得，从某方面讲，我们仍然期待着有人能写出一本像《广岛》这样的书，来讲述21世纪在美国无人机袭击下、在美国炮火摧残下的平民百姓的故事。

Zachary Davis: Imagine you're at a cocktail party and some graduate student comes up to you and says, “Professor, how did Hiroshima change the world?” How do you respond to her in one or two sentences?

扎克里·戴维斯：假如您在鸡尾酒会上，有研究生走过来，问您《广岛》这本书如何改变了世界，您会怎么用一两句话回答呢？

Christopher Capozzola: John Hersey took the atomic bomb, which we knew only from 30,000 feet as the image of the mushroom cloud that Americans dropped on a place that was only a name and turned it into a real place with real people who were not so different from us, and by doing that, forces us as readers to think about the implications of the development and use of atomic weapons.

克里斯多夫·卡普佐拉：之前我们对原子弹的印象仅仅是，美军从三万英尺的高空把它扔在了某个地方，形成了一朵蘑菇云。而约翰·赫西把这个我们只闻其名的地方真实地呈现在我们面前，描绘了那儿的人——他们和我们没有多少不同。这样一来，我们很难不思考原子能武器的应用与发展会引发什么后果。

Christopher Capozzola: I would end, I guess, with one of the quotes that sound like on the cover of the sort of tattered paperback copy that I have, which is from one of the first reviews that the book received in a magazine called The Saturday Review, which said, “Everyone who can read should read this.” And I endorse that fully.

克里斯多夫·卡普佐拉：我想我会用旧版平装本封面上的一句话来结尾。这句话来自《星期六评论》杂志上对这本书的第一篇评论。它说：“所有识字的人都应该读读这本书。”我非常同意这句话。

Zachary Davis: Writ Large is a production of Ximalaya. Writ Large is produced by Jack Pombriant and me, Zachary Davis, and is edited by Galen Beebe. We get help from Liza French, Ariel Liu, Wendy Wu, and Monica Zhang. Our theme song is by Ian Coss. Don’t miss an episode. Subscribe today in the Ximalaya app. Thanks for listening. See you next time.

扎卡里·戴维斯：本节目由喜马拉雅独家制作播出。感谢您的收听，我们下期再见！