【英文原声版46】Derek Miller: A Doll's House

一共是100集英文，100集中文，100集翻译节目。

每周更新一集中文精制，一集英语原声，一集英文翻译，已经买过的就可以永久收听。

英文文稿+中文翻译 

Bang, and the play ends

“砰”，全剧终

Zachary Davis: When I watch TV, many of the shows are about everyday relatable people in everyday, relatable situations and settings. Sometimes, that nearness to ordinary life can even feel a little eerie. Years ago when I was watching Seinfeld, I remember seeing Jerry wearing the same exact sweater my dad used to own.

扎克里·戴维斯：看电视的时候，我们会发现很多剧都在讲一群栩栩如生的人日常的生活与环境。有时候剧里的内容甚至真实得有点吓人。几年前，我在看《宋飞传》的时候，发现主角宋飞穿的毛衣和我爸的一模一样。

Zachary Davis: This fictionalized, yet familiar depiction of real life has become so popular in modern entertainment that it's easy to forget that this is actually a highly stylized approach that at one time shocked audiences. A style called realism. Its origins can be traced back to a 19th century play by Henrik Ibsen called A Doll’s House.

扎克里·戴维斯：将场景与人物刻画得栩栩如生——这种手法在现代文娱作品中非常常见，以至于我们很容易忽视，这其实是一种高度风格化的创作手法，曾一度让观众惊叹不已。这种手法叫作现实主义，可以追溯到19世纪易卜生的戏剧《玩偶之家》。

Derek Miller: It's considered widely among theater scholars to be a landmark text in the history of the development of theater in particularly European and colonial European cultures. My name is Derek Miller. I am the John L. Loeb Associate Professor of the Humanities at Harvard University. I teach in the English department and also courses in theater, dance and media.

德里克·米勒：《玩偶之家》被戏剧研究者普遍视为戏剧史上的里程碑，在殖民时代的欧洲文化中意义尤其深远。我叫德里克·米勒，是哈佛大学的约翰·勒布荣誉人文副教授。我在英语系任教，也教授戏剧、舞蹈和媒体方面的课程。

Zachary Davis: This play is by no means a fairytale. It shows real, relatable characters going through very real struggles and how they handle them. Before this real depiction of life, stories were often black and white. There was a very clear struggle of good vs. evil. But real life is more complicated than that. Ibsen’s characters are constantly trying to navigate this complexity, just like all of us.

扎克里·戴维斯：这部戏剧讲述的可不是什么童话般的故事。它展现了一些栩栩如生的人物如何陷入种种真实的困境、如何应对这些困境。在这种现实主义风格出现之前，故事往往都黑白分明，善与恶之间的斗争清晰可见。但现实生活远比这要复杂。不过易卜生笔下的人物却像现实生活中的所有人一样，永远试图协调这种复杂性。

Derek Miller: I think Ibsen and studying Ibsen and talking about Ibsen helps me think a little more carefully and slowly about what kind of a moral life I'm leading.

德里克·米勒：我觉得阅读、研究、探讨易卜生的作品，可以帮我更仔细地沉下心来剖析自己的道德生活。

Zachary Davis: Welcome to Writ Large, a podcast about how books change the world. I’m Zachary Davis. In each episode, I talk with one of the world’s leading scholars about one book that changed the course of history. For this episode, I sat down with Professor Derek Miller to discuss Henrik Ibsen’s play, A Doll’s House. Henrik Ibsen was born in Norway in 1828. He began writing at age 15. When he was 18 he briefly attended university in what is today Oslo, but left to focus on writing.

扎卡里·戴维斯：欢迎收听：100本改变你和世界的书，在这里我们为大家讲述改变世界的书籍。我是扎卡里·戴维斯。每一集，我都会和一位世界顶尖学者探讨一本影响历史进程的书。在本集，我和德里克·米勒教授一起讨论亨利克·易卜生的戏剧《玩偶之家》。1828年，亨利克·易卜生出生于挪威。他15岁时开始写作。18岁时，他准备去克里斯蒂尼亚（也就是如今的奥斯陆）上大学，但最终没有入学，转而从事写作。

Derek Miller: He starts out in the arts by running a rural theater and then eventually runs the theater in the capital—then Christiania—before he leaves the country. He finds the sort of theatrical culture there too stultifying, and he ends up traveling around Europe, including, I think in Germany and Italy. And he writes a lot of plays. So, he has very practical experience in the theater. He's a man of the theater. He's produced a lot of the popular European dramas of the 19th century.

德里克·米勒：他经营着一家乡村剧院，开始从事艺术创作，后来又去了首都克里斯蒂尼亚经营剧院。可他发现那儿的戏剧文化太过僵化，于是出了国，在德国、意大利等国游历，足迹遍布欧洲。他写了很多剧本，在戏剧方面有着实打实的经验。易卜生堪称戏剧的代名词，创作了很多在19世纪的欧洲颇为流行的作品。

Zachary Davis: Ibsen writes his first plays in the heroic, romantic style which was very popular in 19th century European theatre. Some common themes in these early works include tales about Vikings and old historical and mythological Norwegian themes.

扎克里·戴维斯：易卜生的第一部剧作是英雄主义、浪漫主义的风格，这种风格在19世纪的欧洲非常流行。在这些早期作品中，常见的主题包括维京人的传说、挪威的古老历史和神话故事。

Derek Miller: Starting in 1877, he shifts, and he starts writing prose dramas. The later plays are all in prose. They're in domestic settings, and they're focused on bourgeois life. And the questions they ask are about how we live now. And the “we” he's addressing are his peers, his middle class, educated, theatergoing audience in Norway and Denmark and Copenhagen, which has a very close relationship economically and politically as well as artistically with Norway. And so his plays are first published in Copenhagen, and he's writing in a Norwegian-infused Danish dialect.

德里克·米勒：从1877年起，他的风格开始转变，开始写散文剧。之后他的剧本也都是散文体的，往往以家庭为背景，聚焦于中产阶级的生活，叩问我们当下应当如何生活。他心中的“我们”指的是像他一样的、挪威和丹麦哥本哈根的中产阶级观众。他们往往受过良好教育，经常去剧院看剧。之所以会把哥本哈根列入其中，是因为当时哥本哈根与挪威在经济、政治和文化艺术上都关系密切。他的剧作很多都是先在哥本哈根出版的，写作的语言也是混合着挪威语的丹麦方言。

Derek Miller: But he's speaking directly to this audience rather than writing in this more heroic register. Now, he's not the first person to do this in any European art. French novelists, for instance, are really establishing this approach and have been for decades. He's not the first dramatist to do it, but he's the person who does it in a way that sort of synthesizes a bunch of different strands in political thought and philosophy and in his approach to theatre-making that really transform, going forward, how people think about what drama is and what it can do.

德里克·米勒：他开始摒弃英雄主义的风格，转而直接和读者对话。在欧洲各个艺术领域，他都不是这么做的第一人。在此之前的几十年，法国小说家已经确立并沿用了现实主义风格。易卜生并不是第一个运用现实主义的戏剧家，但他却首次将多种政治与哲学思想融入了现实主义戏剧创作手法中，进一步改变了人们对戏剧及其作用的看法。

Zachary Davis: A Doll’s House premiered at the Royal Theatre in Copenhagen, Denmark in December of 1879. The play is about Nora and Torvald Helmar.

扎卡里·戴维斯：1879年12月，《玩偶之家》在丹麦哥本哈根皇家剧院首演。该剧讲述了娜拉和夫托伐·海尔茂的故事。

Derek Miller: So, they're married, and they're on the verge of a new phase of their life. It's Christmas Eve, actually. And he's about to start his job as a bank manager, and everything's about to change for them. They're going to come into a real strong, solid salary after years of scrimping and saving.

德里克·米勒：这对夫妻即将迎来崭新的生活。开场的一幕是平安夜。海尔茂即将担任银行经理，眼下的一切都将改变。之前的几年，他们节衣缩食、努力攒钱，而从此以后薪水会变足、变稳定，家里的经济状况即将好转。

Derek Miller: However, many years ago, Nora forged a document to secure a loan, and she needed the money to help save Torvald’s life. And this loan came from this disreputable man, Krogstad, who wants Nora's help to get a job at the bank Torvald’s about to run. And so he basically is blackmailing her. “I'm going to expose that you had this forged note,” etc. So, she's caught in this trap. But the gist of the play and part of the way the play works is Nora knows that Torvald will fix it all. He will take the blame, he will stand up for her, and all will be right in the world because he is a heroic individual, and she is just a poor, depraved woman.

德里克·米勒：然而多年以前，娜拉曾伪造签名来借钱，好凑钱为海尔茂养病。债主柯洛克斯泰心术不正，威胁娜拉，若不帮他向海尔茂求情，让自己免遭开除，就将伪造签名的事公之于众。于是娜拉不得不照做。不过故事前面的铺垫和叙述方式告诉你，娜拉相信海尔茂会解决好这些事。他会扛下责任，为娜拉挺身而出，然后一切都会好转，因为海尔茂是个大英雄，而娜拉只是个做错事的可怜女人。

Derek Miller: Krogstad eventually tears up the forged note. So, the plot is actually resolved in this way that involves this other character. And, but in the meantime, Torvald, far from standing up for Nora, is appalled by her, disgusted, and declares their whole life ruined and that he can never trust her again. And this causes Nora to understand that her belief in what Torvald was, who Torvald was to her, and what their marriage was based on nothing but a set of ideals that she had been fed since childhood.

德里克·米勒：不过最终，柯洛克斯泰撕毁了那张借条。问题由另一个角色解决了。但在问题解决前，海尔茂得知真相的那一刻对娜拉没有半点理解与帮助，反而大感震惊，对娜拉大肆谩骂，说他们的整个人生都被她毁了，自己没法再信任她了。娜拉因此认清了海尔茂，也认清了他们之间的关系。他们的完美婚姻仅仅存在于娜拉从小以来的美好幻想中。

Derek Miller: And so the last part of the play is this amazing conversation between the two of them in which Nora tries to articulate how little she understands of who she is and what the world is and how she can never learn any of those things as long as she's with Torvald. And at the end of the play, she leaves him and their two children, excuse me, their three children and slams the door as she walks out at the end of the play. The last sound of the play is the door slamming.

德里克·米勒：戏剧的最后一部分是两人的精彩对话。娜拉试图告诉海尔茂，自己对自我、对整个世界都不怎么了解，如果继续待在海尔茂身边，就永远没法知道这些事。最后，她离开了海尔茂和三个孩子，“砰”地关上家门，走了出去。“砰”地一声，这部剧落幕了。

Derek Miller: And it's shocking to end the play with a sound effect like this. Plays end with a tableau, with all the characters onstage, the good one standing triumphant, the bad ones brought to their knees or laid low in some other fashion, under arrest. But no, in Ibsen's drama, you end the play with a note of confusion and uncertainty, and Torvald stands up in hope, the one thing, the miracle, and bam! The door slams, and that's the end of the play.

德里克·米勒：这部剧竟然以声音结尾，着实令人震惊。大部分戏剧都以舞台造型结尾：正派往往器宇轩昂；反派狼狈不堪，或是被打得落花流水，或是被逮捕。然而易卜生的戏剧并非如此。这部剧在困惑与不确定中落幕。海尔茂怀揣着希望站起来，盼望着奇迹到来，然而“砰”地一声，门关上了，全剧终。

Derek Miller: It's a chilling, startling moment. And so many dramatists take up this style where they're really using all the pieces of theatre to tell their story and not just relying on these old visual modes of tableau, etc.

德里克·米勒：这一幕叫人胆战心惊、震惊不已。很多戏剧家都采用了这种手法，不局限于传统的舞台造型，而是运用各种戏剧元素来讲故事。

Plays for the new middle class

为新兴中产阶级而作的剧

Zachary Davis: Along with using new tools, Ibsen was writing for, and about, a new demographic.

扎卡里·戴维斯：易卜生不仅运用了新元素，同时也为新的群体创造他们的故事。

Derek Miller: So this is starting to get to an educated class. They're not factory workers, right? They're not manual laborers. They have a certain degree of education. And so the characters in Ibsen's plays are, for example, Torvald Helmar in A Doll's House is going to become the manager of a bank. And they're bookkeepers and accountants and architects. The master builder. He's an architect. They are doctors.

德里克·米勒：这基本上算是一个受过教育的阶层，他们不在工厂从事体力劳动。易卜生笔下的人物往往做着记账员、会计师、建筑师、医生这样的工作，比如《玩偶之家》中的夫托伐·海尔茂即将升任银行经理。

Derek Miller: They are professionals of some kind, whether they're in a professional guild or not. They're working in a profession. They have a certain amount of learning, their sort of knowledge workers, essentially. They live mostly in cities and towns that were not looking as much at rural dramas here. they live in. They have servants who helped them with their children and helped keep the house clean. They pay each other calls and visits. They're not royalty. They're not elevated in any way.

德里克·米勒：这些人不论是不是专业协会的会员，但至少都有着专门的职业，也算得上专业。他们有一定的学识，从事着脑力工作。他们大多生活在城市或城镇里，生活场景和乡村戏剧中的场景截然不同。他们雇佣人照看孩子、打扫屋子，时而互相串门。他们不是贵族，也没有什么尊贵的身份。

Derek Miller: But in some way, they make their life, their livings through knowledge and through the manipulation of money. And so those are really some two of the great themes of Ibsen's writing are about what we know and how we come to know it and also money, how we live and how we come to acquire money and our relationship to money.

德里克·米勒：从某种程度上讲，知识与财富管理是他们赖以生存的基础。所以这也是易卜生戏剧中的两大主题。他的戏剧中常常探讨我们了解哪些知识、如何获取知识、如何生活、如何获取财富、如何处理我们与财富之间的关系。

Zachary Davis: Ibsen wasn’t the only playwright to focus on this new bourgeois middle class, but most maintained the heroic and romantic themes that were popular in 19th century European theatre.

扎克里·戴维斯：易卜生并不是唯一一个关注新兴中产阶级的剧作家，不过大多数关注这一群体的剧作家还是延续了19世纪欧洲戏剧中流行的英雄主义和浪漫主义的主题。

Derek Miller: You think about melodramas from the 19th century, often depicting middle class individuals essentially as well as poverty. But their mode of address is still fundamentally Manichaean. They're speaking in terms of good and evil. They're thinking about noble, heroic actions and bad actions. They're morally very black and white.

德里克·米勒：比如19世纪的情节剧虽然常常涉及中产阶级、贫困等话题，但剧中的对白仍然非黑即白、非善即恶。他们思考什么行为如英雄般高尚、什么行为如小人般卑劣。在道德方面他们黑白分明。

Zachary Davis: Ibsen, on the other hand, felt like this binary heroic struggle between good and evil was disconnected to reality. He couldn’t identify with it. In real life, the lines between good and evil, right and wrong, aren’t always clear.

扎克里·戴维斯：易卜生则觉得二元对立的善恶之争与现实脱节。他不认同这种观念，因为现实生活中善与恶、对与错的界限并不总是清晰的。

Derek Miller: People live in the middle, right? We want to do right. We want to think of ourselves as doing right and being right and being good. And yet we all make so many choices and compromises that are ethically, transparently wrong, but we justify them to ourselves. That's the space that Ibsen's characters live in. And it's a very modern space. It has to do with the complexity of the world. It has to do with complexity of class. It has to do with complexity of gender, etc.

德里克·米勒：人们往往生活在中间地带。我们想做正确的事，希望自己所作所为是正确的、高尚的。我们又都做出一些不那么道德的选择与妥协，但又常常自我辩解。易卜生笔下的人物就是这么生活的，这种活法折射出了现代社会的特征，展现了现实世界、阶级和性别的复杂性。

Zachary Davis: 19th-century Europe was a place of change. The decline of church authority, the rise of democracy, and the expansion of education all led to social and cultural changes that empowered individuals. But these changes came with new challenges, complexities, and uncertainties. Ibsen wanted to give the new middle class something they could relate to. By pivoting from the heroic story structure and the fight between good and evil, Ibsen depicted life in all of its complications and ambiguities in a new genre called realism.

扎克里·戴维斯：19世纪的欧洲发生着剧变。教会权威不复往昔，民主力量崛起，教育蓬勃发展，这些促成了一系列增强个体权利的社会与文化变革。但这些变革也带来了新的挑战、复杂问题和种种不确定因素。易卜生想要创作出可以唤起新兴中产阶级共鸣的作品，于是他摆脱了英雄主义的叙事结构和善恶之争的主题，转而运用现实主义这一新手法来描绘生活复杂且模糊的一面。

Derek Miller: My students, when they encounter this play in the class, I have to remind them that the style they're used to watching on television—and you can pick almost any television show and it'll be realist in some essential way—the style they're used to seeing, if you think about American drama in some sort of vague sense, the style that to which we are so accustomed has come to seem like a non-style. Like, of course a sitcom is set in a living room with a couch, and there's also a kitchen set, and you've got the, you see the family at home and their interaction with their neighbors and their employers, etc.. Of course. That is the stuff of drama. It's natural, it's non-stylized.

德里克·米勒：我在课堂上教学生这部剧时，不得不提醒他们这种电视剧中常见的手法是一种独特的艺术风格。如今几乎所有电视剧本质上都是现实主义的。如果大致分类的话，美国的电视剧都是这样。我们如今对这种风格太习以为常了，甚至都不觉得它是一种艺术风格。比如某个情景喜剧发生在一个带沙发的客厅和厨房里，你会看到一家人在家里生活、与邻居和同事交流。这就是这类戏剧的内容，很自然，甚至叫人察觉不到艺术风格。

Derek Miller: But of course, that is a style. It's a very conscious style. And even in the situation comedy, it's a style that's related in part to the development of realism. So, realism is showing, as the writer Bernard Shaw defined it, ourselves in our own situations. We're talking about domestic situations, so you're seeing your furniture on stage. If you go to an Ibsen play in Europe, it's 1879 and you're watching A Doll's House, you should be sitting in that audience and look on the stage and say, “I own that chair.” But that's really the effect that the set is supposed to have.

德里克·米勒：当然这确实是一种风格，而且是刻意为之的风格。情景喜剧中的这种风格与现实主义的发展息息相关。正如作家萧伯纳所说，现实主义就是揭示我们如何生活在所处的环境中。我们探讨家庭情况，于是舞台上就会有家具。假如在1879年，你去欧洲的剧院看易卜生的《玩偶之家》。你坐在台下，看着台上的椅子，会说：“这把椅子我也有。”这就是现实主义想要达到的效果。

Derek Miller: The domestic middle class: they're speaking in a language that is vernacular. It's prose dialogue. It's not elevated. Now, of course, there's a lot of poetry to Ibsen's language, and it can seem very stilted to contemporary readers, even those who understand some of the historical linguistic things he's doing, but nonetheless a dialogue that is trying to capture something more akin to normal speech, in which characters don't speechify. There are no asides, right? They don't turn to the audience and say, “Aha, I have him there!” Right? They don't do that. They speak to each other, and they try to get each other to do what they want. These are quotidian struggles and quotidian plots.

德里克·米勒：它还会这样描绘当地中产阶级：他们说着当地话，语言很日常，一点都不阳春白雪。当然，易卜生的语言往往很有诗意，对当下的读者来说也稍显生硬，甚至一些熟悉他当时语言风格的人也这么认为。但至少他在尝试运用一些更日常的语言，让对白不那么装腔作势。剧里面没有旁白，人物不会对着读者或观众说：“嘿！我逮着他了，在那儿！”不会出现这种情况。人物只会和彼此交流，让对方按自己的心意行事。这些都是稀松平常的争执和情景。

Derek Miller: So, you can see this is a very sort of daily life struggle kind of thing. These aren't international conflicts. No army’s about to burst across the sea into the room. And another thing is the way this all works is that everything is contributing to meaning. It's not just about style and effect. Props are a wonderful example of this in Ibsen's plays.

德里克·米勒：你会发现这都是日常生活中发生的摩擦。它不是国际冲突，不会有军队漂洋过海、破门而入。易卜生的戏剧还有一个值得关注的点，那就是用各种元素来展现深意。这涉及的就不仅仅是风格和效果了。你会看到，道具便是易卜生在戏剧中展现深意的绝佳工具。

Derek Miller: So, Nora likes to sneak macaroons. She likes to eat the candies and the sweets. And she gets chided for this by Torvald, her husband. And of course, it's not just a little joke on her. It's a device to illuminate the dynamic of their relationship, how he controls her, how she has secrets that she keeps from him and sneaks these other things, how she sort of pursues this joy in life that he seems a little opposed to. It’s a wonderful prop to show that dynamic.

德里克·米勒：娜拉喜欢偷吃马卡龙、糖果这些甜食，为此常常被丈夫海尔茂责备。当然易卜生这么设计可不仅仅是在开娜拉的玩笑，而是要借此阐明这对夫妻之间的关系，展现海尔茂是如何控制着娜拉、而娜拉又是如何瞒着丈夫偷偷做别的事情，也展现着娜拉如何追求生活的小幸福，而海尔茂对此横加干涉。这个情节非常精彩地展现了俩人之间的互动方式。

Derek Miller: It's very different from the way, for example, stage props work in earlier dramas. So, you've got this real change in style. Now, again, it looks to us like a non-style. It looks to us like neutral. Realism feels like a non-style, but in fact, it's a heavily stylized form. And Ibsen is one of the masters of it.

德里克·米勒：这和早期戏剧中舞台道具扮演的作用完全不同，可以说是真正的风格上的转变。不过这种手法在我们看你来也似乎不像是艺术风格，我们觉得它很平常。现实主义也一样，看起来没什么，但实际上是一种强烈的风格化的形式。而易卜生恰恰是驾驭这种风格的大师。

Zachary Davis: So, realism does not itself look at any other class except the middle class?

扎克里·戴维斯：那现实主义戏剧中除了中产阶级，没有别的阶级吗？

Derek Miller: Realism doesn't imply a particular political point of view and often therefore simply takes on the middle class as its default. That is to say, it's the theater-going audience itself and the extent that middle classes, the middle classes and the educated classes are generally the consumers of this written drama or seen as the consumers for, it's marketed to them.

德里克·米勒：现实主义并不意味着某种政治观点，因此常常默认将中产阶级作为叙述对象。也就是说，这部戏剧主要是为那些去剧院消费的、受过良好教育的中产阶级而写，目标受众是这些人。

Derek Miller: So, realism doesn't imply anything. You can write conservative realist drama, as plenty of writers did and have done. It's not a particularly difficult thing to do. But realism has also been an excellent vehicle for showing corners of life that have been excluded, marginalized, and otherwise harmed. And many have argued that realism is essentially conservative because it doesn't show you life as it could be. It just shows you life as it is and therefore is in some ways static or withholding.

德里克·米勒：现实主义并不意味着任何政治倾向，你可以像很多剧作家一样，写保守的现实主义戏剧。这也不是很困难的事情。不过现实主义也可以作为一种绝妙的载体，来展现生活中被排斥、被冷落或是被伤害的的一面。很多人认为现实主义本质上很保守，因为它没有展现生活可能会有的样子，而是直接展现了生活的现状，所以从某种程度上讲是静态的、守旧的。

Rewrite, or we refuse to play

除非重写，不然不演

Zachary Davis: And what's interesting is I could imagine a critique of that coming from the left and the right, that certain tradition-minded people might say we ought to have art that ennobles us, that inspires us, that shows us to a better, you know, character or virtue or spirit. And at the same time, you know, maybe social-justice-minded people might say, yeah, like, “Don't make us care about bourgeois families. You know, they're fine. Like, what about the poor?”

扎克里·戴维斯：有意思的是，我能想象到现实主义可能会同时遭到来自左派和右派的批评。某些思想传统的人可能会说，我们需要的艺术必须能感化激励我们，向我们展现崇高的性情、美德与精神。而与此同时，主张社会公正的人可能会说，不要让我们仅仅关注小资产阶级家庭，他们过得好得很，穷人过得怎么样呢？

Derek Miller: Absolutely. No, absolutely. That's absolutely right. And Ibsen in particular underwent the former critique during his lifetime. A Doll’s House very famously ends with Nora leaving her husband Torvald. And this was so appalling to some of the early actresses who performed the role in Germany that they refused to play the role as it was written. And Ibsen himself wrote an alternate ending in which she stays with Torvald at the end of the play, and that was the one that was performed a lot in Germany in the early years.

德里克·米勒：没错，确实会这样。易卜生生前遭到了很多抨击，来自前一类人的尤其多。《玩偶之家》的结尾很有名：娜拉最终离开了丈夫海尔茂。然而对于德国早期一些扮演娜拉的演员来说，这一幕太惊世骇俗了，于是他们拒绝按照剧本出演。易卜生不得不写了另一个版本。在这一版中，娜拉最后还是留在了海尔茂身边。早些年，这一版在德国演过很多次。

Derek Miller: When it was first performed in England, it was entirely rewritten by this very conservative playwright, Henry Arthur Jones and another writer whose name I forget. And Jones basically takes the structure, the narrative form of A Doll’s House and completely rewrites it so that Torvald does the heroic thing and rescues his wife, and everyone lives happily ever after.

德里克·米勒：《玩偶之家》在英国公演时，剧本被两位非常保守的剧作家彻底改写了，其中一位叫亨利·阿瑟·琼斯，另一位我忘了名字。琼斯沿用了《玩偶之家》的结构和叙事形式，但彻底改了内容，将海尔茂塑造成了一个英雄：他救了妻子，俩人从此过上了幸福的生活。

Derek Miller: So, there were a lot of people who said, ‘We need, you know, we need heroism! We need ideals. We need high moral thoughts.” The wonderful thing about Ibsen and one of the reasons I like him so much as a writer is because he saw the sort of left reaction that embraced his calls to reality, and he writes plays that think very carefully about what the function of ideals are. Ibsen has real questions about whether or not we can live in a world entirely without ideals, too.

德里克·米勒：很多人说，我们需要英雄主义，需要美化的理想和崇高的道德思想。但易卜生的伟大之处在于，他看到了左派们接受了他的现实主义的风格，写作的时候也认真思考了完美的理想到底有什么用。这也是我这么喜欢他的原因。同时易卜生也在质疑，我们能否生活在一个没有一丁点美化理想的世界里。

Zachary Davis: One of the conflicts in A Doll’s House is the clash between the heroic, idealized version of reality of Ibsen’s predecessors and the complicated version of this new brand of drama.

扎克里·戴维斯：《玩偶之家》展现的一大冲突是：老一辈想要将现实英雄主义化、理想化；而这种新形式的戏剧想要展现生活的复杂一面。

Derek Miller: Nora seems to think she's living in a heroic comedy and finds out, in fact, that she's living in a domestic tragedy. And that's her big comedown, right, is that she thinks the ideals of the 19th century theatre are her life, and they're not. Her husband's not going to step in and take the forgery on himself and sacrifice himself for her.

德里克·米勒：娜拉似乎觉得自己的生活像一出英雄主义喜剧，其实却是一出家庭悲剧。所以她才会失落。她觉得19世纪那种理想化的戏剧就是自己生活的写照，然而现实并非如此。丈夫不会出面，把伪造签名的责任揽过去，牺牲自我来救娜拉。

Zachary Davis: And what was the reaction of the public?

扎克里·戴维斯：大众反响如何？

Derek Miller: It was hugely popular. It was reprinted very, very quickly. It was translated across Europe very, very quickly. There's wonderful recent scholarship, actually, in digital humanities based research on the proliferation of A Doll’s House around the globe. It's performed by famous actresses all over the world. Early on, for example, the first American performance is by Helena Modjeska, one of the great 19th century divas. It's just a huge hit.

德里克·米勒：这部剧很受欢迎，很快就被重印了，而且很快就被翻译到了欧洲各地。近期出现了很棒的数字人文研究，主题就是《玩偶之家》在全球的传播。一些全球著名女演员都演过这部剧，比如早期，第一个在美国参演的是19世纪著名女演员海伦娜·莫德耶斯卡。演出大获成功。

Derek Miller: Now, it has its trouble finding its way into some societies. For example, the British have stage censorship through 1968, and so it's not seen on British stages in the commercial theatre system that they have. And really the play becomes very closely tied, as with Ibsen's other work, too, to the independent theatre movement that springs up throughout Europe. So, he's one of the writers who gets so closely associated with a move away from purely commercial production or the purely royal aristocratic government patronage and towards a model that is about private patronage, the audience patronage, the subscription model that we're not familiar in the United States, with something like the regional non-profits.

德里克·米勒：但这部剧在社会上也遇到了一些麻烦。比如1968年之前，英国一直实行戏剧审查制度，所以那时英国商业剧院都不演这部戏。正如易卜生的其他剧作一样，这部剧和席卷整个欧洲的小剧场运动有着千丝万缕的联系。和其他一些同行一样，易卜生不再从事商业剧作和皇室资助的剧作，转而创作私人资助、观众资助和预约模式下的剧作。美国人对这种模式不是很了解，它有点像地方性的非盈利剧作。

Derek Miller: The impact that Ibsen's work had, not just in the theatre but intellectually. People read Ibsen, talked about Ibsen in the papers. There were Ibsen wars in the British papers about performing his work there. This was work that people cared deeply about because they understood that it meant something different, that he was imagining and showing people a new world in a way that compelled audiences.

德里克·米勒：易卜生的作品不仅影响着戏剧届，还影响着知识界。人们阅读易卜生，在报纸上谈论他。英国报纸还争论，要把他的剧作搬到英国来演。人们非常关心这部作品，因为他们清楚其与众不同之处，那就是以富有吸引力的方式为人们构想、展现一个新世界。

Derek Miller: And that threatened a lot of people, that threatened the conservative class that wasn't interested in women's liberation, that wasn't interested in, you know, confessing to our sins and realizing that we all behave immorally sometimes. It wasn't interested in any of that. It wanted to uphold, as you said, church and state. And Ibsen wasn't willing to let go of the desire to see his characters struggle through their daily choices.

德里克·米勒：然而这让很多人感受到了威胁，特别是保守阶级。他们不关心妇女解放，不想承认人类的罪孽，拒绝相信人类时而会做不道德的事。他们对所有这些都不感兴趣。他们想要维持教会和国家的权威。而易卜生坚持让笔下的人物在日常选择中纠结挣扎。

Zachary Davis: So, was the heat and light that came from this play? How much of it would you attribute to its discussion of women's lives and roles and kind of feminist engagement in general?

扎克里·戴维斯：这部剧引发了这么多关注，您觉得有多少是因为它探讨了女性的生活与角色、以及女性在社会中的总体参与度？

Derek Miller: The idea that this middle-class woman who seems to be generally a good person, upstanding person throughout the play, would decide to leave her children and her husband because she feels that she doesn't understand who she is or what her place in the world is, was abhorrent to huge swaths of society. And we live in a society, in my view, that is still so steeped in misogyny and distrust of women and for women's roles, so much of the current economic crisis has meant that care returns to being primarily “women's work” in terms of child care. And these decisions aren't decisions for women. They are made for them by society. And Ibsen points that out so clearly in this play.

德里克·米勒：主角娜拉是一位中产阶级女性，在整部剧中大体都很善良诚实。但最后她决定离开丈夫与孩子，因为她不知道自己是谁、在世界上处于什么位置。然而这个人物设定与当时社会大众的认知完全相悖。在我看来，如今我们社会仍然有着厌女情绪，人们不相信女性，不相信她们在社会中的角色。近期的经济危机也让照料孩子再次成了“女性的天职”。这些决定并非女性自己做出的，而是社会替她们做的。易卜生在这部剧中清楚地展现了这一点。

Derek Miller: So, the play really… There was lots of different kinds of rejection throughout Europe, as we said, these rewrites of various kinds that are really a sense that this clear critique of passive femininity and chivalrous masculinity hit at a deep, fundamental structure of European and American societies at the time. And it continues to be a really deep structure. And I think it's part of the reason the play continues to have so much resonance and performance.

德里克·米勒：当时欧洲对这部戏有各种各样的抵制。易卜生明确批判了柔弱顺从的女性形象与英雄般的男性形象，而人们对这部剧的改写恰恰反映了，这种批判动摇了当时欧美社会的基本结构。这种结构时至今日仍然扎根于社会中。我想这也是为什么这部剧能一直引发如此多的共鸣、被一直搬上舞台。

Derek Miller: It spurred a lot of women to action. Most famously, Elizabeth Robbins, an American actress who became involved with the play in the United Kingdom and with Ibsen's works goes on to be an important part of the suffrage movement, an important advocate for women's rights, and writes wonderful Ibsenite play of her own called Votes for Women, that has a spectacular second act set at a political rally in the middle of London in which the characters literally stand up on stage and give speeches about why women should have the right to vote. And they get heckled by other actors on stage. It's a remarkable piece of writing, a very Ibsenite play. And so much of the, you know, the suffrage movement gets a little boost from this play in this, sort of tangential ways.

德里克·米勒：《玩偶之家》鼓励了许多女性行动起来。最有名的例子就是美国女演员伊丽莎白·罗宾斯。她在英国与易卜生一起参演了这部剧，后来她成了妇女选举权运动的重要成员，积极倡导女性权利，还写了一部精彩的易卜生风格的剧作，名叫《妇女投票权》。这部剧的第二幕非常棒，场景设置在伦敦市中心的政治集会上，剧中人物真的在台上发表了演讲，阐述为什么女性应当拥有投票权。不过她们遭到了台上其他演员的诘问。这部剧非常了不起，很有易卜生的味道。《玩偶之家》以类似的方式对妇女选举权运动起到了小小的促进作用。

Bringing huge changes to theater

对戏剧影响深远

Zachary Davis: So he signals and helps to create a new realism in theater and beyond. How does realism change theater in Europe going forward?

扎克里·戴维斯：易卜生为戏剧及其他领域带来了一种新的现实主义。那么现实主义如何影响了戏剧在欧洲的发展？

Derek Miller: Ibsen's impact on realism in the theater is huge. Realism becomes a mode for a certain kind of literary writing. Realism then marks a style that's good to write in and to read in. And so writers, playwrights start writing again to be read in a different way, not just performed or performed by amateurs in their homes, but also to be read by serious thinkers. So, Ibsen plays a huge role in that. He plays a huge part and the play has played a huge role in the independent theater movement in Europe.

德里克·米勒：易卜生极大地影响了现实主义在戏剧中的发展。现实主义成为了一种文学写作的模式，代表着一种易于读写的风格。于是，剧作家创作时会假定剧本将以不同的方式被阅读，不仅仅被业余人士用来在家排小短剧，还会被严肃思想家所阅读。易卜生对此功不可没。他的《玩偶之家》也在欧洲小剧场运动中发挥着重要作用。

Derek Miller: This is the Théâtre-Libre of Andre Antoine. This is Die Freie Bühne of Otto Brahm. This is the Independent Theatre Society of J.T. Grein in the United Kingdom. And then eventually in the 1910s, the Little Theatre movement in the United States. And so many writers associated with these movements pick up on Ibsenite styles of writing. They also pick up on more expressionist forms and various kinds of symbolisms. But Ibsen represents sort of one strand of theatrical style.

德里克·米勒：欧洲的小剧场有安德烈·安托万创建的巴黎自由剧院、奥托·布拉姆创建的柏林自由舞台、J.T.格里恩在英国创建的独立剧社。到了20世纪的前十年，小剧场运动蔓延到了美国。许多投入这些运动的作家都采用了易卜生式的写作手法，同时也运用了表现主义和象征主义的手法。易卜生代表着戏剧写作手法的一个分支。

Zachary Davis: Ibsen’s influence can also be traced to the Stanislavski Method, also known as method acting. This approach was very popular with 20th century film actors. Many actors in the United States studied the Stanislavski Method, which trains actors to take on the role of their characters, not just while they’re on stage or screen, but in their regular life too. They become their characters for the duration of the role. This method was originally developed in part to get inside the characters in Ibsen’s plays.

扎克里·戴维斯：易卜生甚至还影响到了斯坦尼斯拉夫斯基体系，也就是“方法派”表演理论。20世纪的时候，“方法派”在电影演员中非常流行，被许多美国演员所学习。这一理论强调不仅仅要训练演员在舞台或是银幕上扮演他们的角色，平时生活中也要训练。在演出训练这段时间，演员本人要和角色融为一体。这个方法在发明的时候，部分的目的是要帮助演员进入易卜生剧中的角色。

Derek Miller: Ibsen's characters have such psychological complexity and depth. You look at a 19th century melodrama, and you can literally just learn your lines and cues and go on and act your way through the play, not having read any other piece of it because all of it was so formulaic and so clearly cut. There's never any characterization that’s not clear. You're the tragic heroine. You know what to do. Go ahead, faint. You know your cue to faint.

德里克·米勒：易卜生笔下人物的心理很复杂、很有深度。与之相对的是19世纪的情景剧。你打开那些剧本，看看自己的台词和提示，不用看其他角色的戏，就能登台演出，因为所有作品都很套路化、一点都不模糊，人物形象都很明确。比如，你就是悲剧性的女主角，你知道要怎么演。晕倒就行，跟着台本上的提示走就好。

Derek Miller: Ibsen doesn't write plays like that. Ibsen writes plays where you have to read what the other characters say about you to know what your character is like. This sounds like an obvious kind of thing. Isn't that how play's work? It's not. It's not before, in most of the 19th century before Ibsen starts doing it very seriously. Ibsen and others. So, this is a huge change in a lot of approaches to acting, the development of what we might call psychological acting styles. It's a huge change in design.

德里克·米勒：易卜生不写这样的剧。要演易卜生的剧，你必须读一读其他角色对你这个角色的评价，好知道你的角色是什么样的。这似乎是个显而易见的事情。难道戏剧不就是这么演的吗？并不是，至少在易卜生等人为戏剧注入严肃元素之前，都不是这样。所以这是表演方法上的一大转变，这种演绎风格被称作“心理表演风格”。这就是戏剧设计上的一大改变。

Derek Miller: So, a lot of design becomes oriented on this realist work rather than sort of flatter, just painted drops. Now you need a couch. You need three dimensions to the stage with a couch and a chair for the other person to sit on. So, the theatre changes in those ways. The acting styles change, and the economics of it change. Right? So, this isn't work that can be produced as easily in commercial settings, at least in some countries. And so this is not, what we would now call “not for profit theatres” develop in other countries to support and stage these plays, and they develop a model for subscriptions.

德里克·米勒：很多戏剧的设计都往现实主义的方向发展，不再刻画扁平的、刚刚好的小点。如今你需要将三维空间搬上舞台，要有一个沙发、一把椅子、以及一个人坐在上面。所以戏剧出现了这些变化。演绎风格在变，经济情况也在变。若是在商业剧院中，做出这些改变可不容易，至少在某些国家是这样的。不过当时的独立剧院不是我们如今说的在某些国家出现的“非营利性剧院”，它们有着自己的预约模式。

Derek Miller: So, it's a huge influence on theater throughout Europe and down to the present day. So, you not only have writers like Chekhov and Ibsen who are rough contemporaries, excuse me, Checkov and Shaw, who's a junior contemporary of his, and Hauptmann and Zola. But then even playwrights such as Eugene O'Neill, who’s slightly later. O'Neill has a huge expressionist phase, and then his later plays get very Ibsenite in terms of characters just sitting on stage, talking psychology, wondering about their choices in life. Arthur Miller is a huge Ibsenite. So, Death of a Salesman has many expressionist elements. There's a lot of expressionism in Miller's writing.

德里克·米勒：这对当时乃至如今的欧洲戏剧影响深远。欧洲不但涌现出了契诃夫、萧伯纳、豪普特曼、左拉等和易卜生差不多同时代的剧作家，还出现了尤金·奥尼尔等稍晚一辈的作家。奥尼尔的作品一度颇有表现主义的色彩，但后来他的作品变得很有易卜生的风格，剧中的人物坐在台上，剖析内心，思考人生选择。阿瑟·米勒的作品也带有强烈的易卜生风格。《推销员之死》中有很多表现主义的元素，米勒的作品一贯如此。

Derek Miller: So, it remains, as I said, a default style for so much of the performances that we consume, right? We consume more performances in televisual media now than we do in live form. But even so, our assumptions about reality, and staging reality and the function of staging reality have remained pretty stable since the late 19th century.

德里克·米勒：正如我之前说的，在我们观看的许多表演中，默认的风格仍然是现实主义。如今我们在电视上看的表演比在现场看的更多。尽管如此，自19世纪末以来，我们对现实、现实主义及其功能的假设一直没怎么改变。

Zachary Davis: But no matter how close to reality it gets, realism will never fully be able to replicate real life.

扎克里·戴维斯：不过无论现实主义多么接近显示，它都无法完全还原现实生活。

Derek Miller: The more you try to get it right, the harder it is to do. That’s of course one of the great stories about reality television, too, right? How fake everything of reality television is. Or I have a seven year old son, and he was asking about the pancakes on the pancake box. “Why do they look so good?” And my wife's explaining, “Well, first they make some pancakes and then they fill them with cardboard, and then they pour some, you know, fake shiny stuff on top of it, and they get something that looks like butter, and they paint that, and then they Photoshopped the whole picture.” Right? I mean, reproducing reality is a huge amount of work because reality is not reproducible. And so the way we relate to the real is so striking.

德里克·米勒：你越是想还原，就越难做到。显然真人秀也是这样，对吧？真人秀上面的东西看起来都很假。我有个儿子七岁了，有次他问道，煎饼盒子上的煎饼图案为什么这么好看。我妻子解释说：“他们先做了些煎饼，再用硬纸板叠在中间，然后在上面倒了一些闪闪发光的假玩意，再弄点看起来像黄油一样的东西，然后上点颜色，拍照，修图。”还原现实可不是什么容易的事，因为现实无法完全还原。我们还原现实的方式着实叫人震惊。

Derek Miller: The other thing about realism that's so amazing is that—and this is very tied to bourgeois life—is that realism gets the way in which we perform our lives for each other. So much of our life, particularly of our consumption of objects, but also the way we speak with each other, the jobs that we undertake, our political allegiances, are ways to signal to each other our alliances and our community and also our own status.

德里克·米勒：现实主义还有一点很了不起：它还原了我们与周围互动的方式。这点和中产阶级生活息息相关。它还原了我们如何消费物品、如何与彼此对话、如何工作、如何认同某套政治理念。这些生活的方式都被我们用来展现彼此所属的群体与社会阶层。

Derek Miller: Ibsen gets that that's the essence of bourgeois life. It's not just having these things. It's using them to the end of asserting your own place in the world. And because he gets that, the works feel incredibly unstable. That is to say, as you're watching Nora and Torvald live in their house with that couch that “You looked at that couch!” and “I think we own that chair!” and “That wallpaper is made at that store down the street.”

德里克·米勒：易卜生知道这就是中产阶级生活的本质。人们不仅仅是拥有这些东西，也是在用它们巩固自己在世界上的位置。也正因为他知道这一点，他的剧会让你有些恍惚。当看到娜拉和海尔茂待在那个带沙发的房子里，你会觉得那个沙发似曾相识，或是发现自己也有那把椅子，甚至认出来那张墙纸就是在街边那家店做的。

Derek Miller: As you see those things, you recognize the theatricality of your own life, and you become unsettled by the recognition that so much of your own life is you putting on a play for your friends and your neighbors and your peers at work to show them that you are who you are. And that's deeply unsettling about realism, deeply unsettling.

德里克·米勒：看到这些东西，你会认识到自己的生活很有戏剧性。你还会感到不安，因为你会觉得自己生活的很多方面都是在演戏给朋友、邻居和同事看，在向他们展示你是谁。你也进而会对现实主义感到强烈的不安。

Zachary Davis: And would you say that social media is also highlighting that performative aspect of our lives?

扎克里·戴维斯：您觉不觉得，社交媒体也在放大这种生活中演戏的感觉？

Derek Miller: Absolutely. Social media is so much about a performative life. Food photos, of course, but also lifestyle blogging, Instagram things. It's not to say that nothing is real. I do think there are real things in the world, but that our relationship to the real things in the world is constructed by as many richly entangled contexts. And so we have to work hard to maintain control over the terms under which we encounter the real.

德里克·米勒：绝对如此。社交媒体展示的就是演戏般的生活。晒一晒美食，写一写博客记录日常生活，发一发美照。不过也不是说这些都是假的。我觉得世界上有真实的东西，但我们与这些东西的关系被这么多复杂的场景所左右，所以我们必须努力把控好自己接触真实事物的场景。

Zachary Davis: When Ibsen sat down to write A Doll’s House, he wanted to capture the fact that in modern life, we live not in black and white but in many shades of gray. His play holds up a mirror to audiences so we can see our lives as they are. But he also revealed how performative our everyday lives actually are. By opening this door to realism, he blurred the lines between what is real life and what is just an act.

扎克里·戴维斯：易卜生写《玩偶之家》的时候，想要展现这样一个事实：在现代社会，我们的生活并不是非黑即白的，而是有着很多中间地带。他的戏剧像是为观众举起了一面镜子，让他们看清生活的真实模样。不过他也揭示了我们的日常生活有演戏的成分。易卜生打开了现实主义的大门，让真实生活和表演之间不再有鸿沟。

Zachary Davis: Writ Large is a production of Ximalaya. Writ Large is produced by Galen Beebe, Jack Pombriant and me, Zachary Davis, with help from Liza French, Ariel Liu, Wendy Wu, and Monica Zhang. Our theme song is by Ian Coss. Don’t miss an episode. Subscribe today in the Ximalaya app. Thanks for listening. See you next time.

扎卡里·戴维斯：本节目由喜马拉雅独家制作播出。感谢您的收听，我们下期再见！