【英文原声版04】Elizabeth Lunbeck: Civilization and Its Discontents

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Civilization: Is Heaven actually Hell?

文明让人类升入天堂还是坠入地狱

Zachary Davis: No individual is an island. Whether we live in the city or the country, we all live in civilizations. There are a lot of positive aspects to this way of life: laws keep people safe, political systems give the world order, and cultural identities bind us together.

扎卡里·戴维斯：没有人是一座孤岛。无论居住在城市还是乡村，我们都身处文明之中。文明带给我们诸多益处：法律可以保障我们的安全，政治制度可以维系世界秩序，文化认同可以把我们凝聚起来。

Zachary Davis: But civilization has its downsides. For Sigmund Freud, the famous psychoanalyst of the 19th and 20th centuries, civilization was a problem.

扎卡里·戴维斯：但是文明也有其弊端。对于19、20世纪著名的心理学家西格蒙德·弗洛伊德来说，文明存在着问题。

Elizabeth Lunbeck: The sort of foundational idea that Freud gets to is that we are at base very aggressive creatures. We delight in exercising our aggression, in killing one another and hurting other people, in promoting our own superiority. And civilization with its laws and mores prevents us from gratifying that aggressiveness.

伊丽莎白·兰百克：弗洛伊德基本观点是，人类本质上是有攻击性的动物。我们乐于互相攻击、互相残杀、互相伤害，来表明自己优于对方。而法律等文明制度则阻止我们从这种侵略行为中得到满足。

Zachary Davis: That’s Elizabeth Lunbeck, a professor in the History of Science at Harvard University. She’s talking about Freud’s theory of civilization, which he laid out in his 1930 book, Civilization and its Discontents. Civilization is a problem, and it makes us unhappy.

扎卡里·戴维斯：这位是哈佛大学科学史系教授伊丽莎白·兰百克。她说的是弗洛伊德的文明理论，弗洛伊德在1930年出版的著作《文明及其缺憾》中提出了这一理论。文明存在着问题，它让人不幸福。

Elizabeth Lunbeck: So Freud argues, you might think that we could just go back to a state of nature and everyone could just live out their licentiousness sexually, aggressively and so on. But he says everywhere that's been tried, we set up barriers because we somehow need those barriers to overcome in order for us to feel gratified.

伊丽莎白·兰百克：弗洛伊德说，或许你们觉得我们可以回到自然状态，在性欲望和攻击本能的驱使下随心所欲地生活。但他说生活中限制无处不在，我们之所以设置重重障碍，是因为我们需要通过克服障碍来收获满足。

Zachary Davis: So, civilization is actually...good. This contradicts the idea that civilization is a problem—but that’s the point.

扎卡里·戴维斯：这么看文明其实挺好的。这就跟“文明存在着问题”这个观点相矛盾，不过重点就在这儿。

Elizabeth Lunbeck: So the main argument of the book turns on a paradox. And the paradox is this: civilization, which we created to ensure our happiness—turns out the same civilization is the source of our greatest misery. So we are our own worst enemies.

伊丽莎白·兰百克：《文明及其缺憾》这本书的核心观点基于一个悖论，那就是：人类为了追求幸福创造文明，可文明反而成了我们最大痛苦的根源。这么看来，人类竟然是自己最大的敌人。

Zachary Davis: Welcome to Writ Large【本课程英文版名称，为喜马拉雅官方自制】, a podcast about books that changed the world. I’m Zachary Davis. In each episode, I talk to one of the world’s leading scholars about the impact one book had. Today, I’m talking to Professor Elizabeth Lunbeck about Civilization and Its Discontents.

扎卡里·戴维斯：欢迎收听：100本改变你和世界的书，在这里我们为大家讲述改变世界的书籍。我是扎卡里·戴维斯。每一集，我都会和一位世界顶尖学者探讨一本影响历史进程的书。在本集，我和哈佛大学教授伊丽莎白·兰百克一起讨论《文明及其缺憾》。

What Freud Brought to His Times?

佛洛依德在当时提出了什么？

Zachary Davis: Sigmund Freud was born in 1856.

扎卡里·戴维斯：西格蒙德·弗洛伊德出生于1856年。

Elizabeth Lunbeck: He was born in a small town in Central Europe, moved when he was very young to Vienna, where he stayed until 1939, and died in London, having been driven out of his native Vienna by the rise of the Nazis.

伊丽莎白·兰百克：他出生于中欧的一个小镇，幼年时迁居维也纳。直到1939年，纳粹崛起，他被迫离开维也纳，不久后在伦敦去世。

Zachary Davis: Freud is best known for his work in the field of psychoanalysis, a theory for treating mental health disorders by studying the unconscious mind. But he began his career as a medical professional, studying the brain.

扎卡里·戴维斯：弗洛伊德以精神分析法闻名，这种方法通过研究无意识来治疗精神疾病。不过最初他是一位医生，专门研究人类大脑。

Elizabeth Lunbeck: He was a neurologist who early on became very interested in the question of hysteria, which is, why—especially young women—were falling victim to diseases that seemed to have no organic substrate.

伊丽莎白·兰百克：他是一名神经科医生，很早就对癔症兴趣浓厚。他想知道为什么这些病人，尤其是患病的年轻女性，明明没有器质性损伤，却仍然会有各种症状。

Zachary Davis: These women refused to speak, or eat, or they contorted their bodies—but nobody could find a medical reason for their behavior.

扎卡里·戴维斯：这些妇女不说话也不吃东西，身体扭作一团，但没有人能对这些症状作出医学解释。

Elizabeth Lunbeck: And he came up with a theory of trauma, that they had been sexually traumatized, in early life. And his role as a healer was to dig down through the layers that had hidden that trauma and to reach that trauma, expose it to light, and to effect a cure.

伊丽莎白·兰百克：弗洛伊德提出了创伤理论，说她们早年经历过性创伤。身为治疗者，他要做的就是挖掘出隐藏在她们内心的创伤，并且触及创伤，让创伤暴露出来，然后才能有效地帮她们愈疗。

Zachary Davis: Freud argued that people repress memories that are painful and that those memories are stored in the unconscious. We can gain access to that unconscious by interpreting dreams, among other methods. He wrote about this theory in his 1899 book, appropriately called The Interpretation of Dreams.

扎卡里·戴维斯：弗洛伊德认为，人们会压抑痛苦的记忆，把它们封存在无意识中。我们可以通过解析梦境等方法来了解无意识。他在1899年的著作《梦的解析》中阐释了这个理论。

Zachary Davis: Freud spent the first decades of his career focused on the psychology of individuals, but by 1929, he had zoomed out to talk about civilization more broadly. He brought this broader focus to civilization and its discontents.

扎卡里·戴维斯：在职业生涯的前几十年里，弗洛伊德研究的一直是个体的心理，但到了1929年，他开始关注更广泛的内容，用以谈论文明。他将关注点拓展到了文明及其缺憾上。

Battle between Civilization and our Animal Instincts

人类文明与人类本性的拉锯战

Zachary Davis: Here’s Professor Lunbeck reading a bit of the text:

扎卡里·戴维斯：下面有请兰百克教授为我们朗读书中的选段：

Elizabeth Lunbeck: The element of truth behind all this, which people are so ready to disavow, is that men are not gentle creatures who want to be loved and who at most can defend themselves if they are attacked. They are, on the contrary, creatures among whose instinctual endowments is to be reckoned a powerful share of aggressiveness.

伊丽莎白·兰百克：“隐藏在这一切之后的，也是人们不愿意承认的一个真实因素是，人类不是渴望被爱的温和动物，不是在受到进攻时才会自卫。相反，人类这种动物本能中具有很强的进攻性。”

Zachary Davis: So, what is civilization for Freud? Then it sounds like it's not art galleries and wine tastings. It's something more like a way of creating order out of chaos.

扎卡里·戴维斯：那么在弗洛伊德看来，文明是什么？文明似乎不是美术馆和鉴酒会，更像是在混乱中建立秩序。

Elizabeth Lunbeck: Yes. So he's kind of playing with this idea that civilization is that sort of high culture. So we think that we are living in high bourgeois culture, with art, literature, music and so on. But Freud lived through World War One, with the senseless slaughter of 16 million people. He also was writing this as Hitler was gaining adherents, and the threat of what was coming next was very evident to him.

伊丽莎白·兰百克：没错。弗洛伊德似乎在回应那种认为文明就是高雅文化的观点。我们认为自己浸润在小布尔乔亚式的高雅文化中，欣赏着艺术、文学、音乐等等。但弗洛伊德经历了一战， 1600万人因为愚蠢的大屠杀平白无故地丧生。正当他写《文明与缺憾》这本书的时候，希特勒正获得越来越多的支持，他明白人类将面临怎样的浩劫。

Elizabeth Lunbeck: So for him, civilization is a system of laws, orders, norms that make society hold together. And this is always in danger of unraveling because of our mutual hostility to one another.

伊丽莎白·兰百克：在弗洛伊德看来，文明是一套由法律法规、公序良俗构成的、凝聚整个社会的体系。这套体系总是摇摇欲坠，因为人与人之间存在着敌意。

Zachary Davis: So let's go a little deeper into Freud's idea of the paradox that we have animal instincts that seek to express themselves, but we have created all sorts of constraints on those. What is that feeling that he tries to describe and why does he think we can't escape it?

扎卡里·戴维斯：我们不妨再深入探讨一下弗洛伊德的两个看似矛盾的观点。他认为人类既有自我释放的动物性本能，又想方设法约束这种本能。他试图描述的是什么感觉呢？为什么他觉得我们无法摆脱它？

Elizabeth Lunbeck: He's very clear that hostility toward the other is fundamental to our nature. That, for him, is non-negotiable. And there's a lot in the book about how the hostility we have for one another constantly threatens the unraveling of civilization.

伊丽莎白·兰百克：他很清楚互相敌视是人类本性的重要部分，而且他认为这种敌视是无法化解的。书里还频繁提到人类间的敌对情绪如何不断威胁着文明的瓦解。

Elizabeth Lunbeck: He has a wonderful passage where he argues against those who would say that we have been “civilized,” in quotes. He says men are not gentle creatures who want to be loved. We will attack ourselves if we're defended. This is instinctual in us. It is the way we are wired. It's the way we're built. And so he says, you know, Christianity, Western culture, holds, “Love thy neighbor as thyself.” He's like, that's bunk. If we love everybody equally, little love has no meaning.

伊丽莎白·兰百克：书里有一章非常精彩。在这章中，弗洛伊德反对了我们已经是所谓“文明人”的说法。他说人类不是渴望被爱的温柔动物。受保护时，我们还会自我攻击。这是我们的内在本能，人类天性便是这样。对于基督教和西方文化中信奉的“爱邻如爱己”，他觉得就是鬼扯。如果我们平等地爱每个人，这一丁点爱也毫无意义。

Elizabeth Lunbeck: Furthermore, why should I love my neighbor? He says, “My neighbor is not only a potential helper or sexual object, but someone who tempts us to satisfy their aggressiveness on him, to exploit his capacity for work without compensation, to use him sexually without his consent, to seize his possessions, to humiliate him, to cause him pain, to torture, and to kill him. Man is a wolf to man.” That's basic Freud stripped down of all the sort of trappings. That we are at the base, fundamentally aggressive.

伊丽莎白·兰百克：再说了，我为什么要爱我的邻居呢？他说，“我们的邻居不仅仅是我们潜在的帮手和性对象，很容易唤起我们对他的进攻欲，想要毫无补偿地剥削他的劳动力，未经允许就欲行不轨，霸占他的财产，羞辱他，使他痛苦，折磨并杀死他。人是彼此的狼。”弗洛伊德就这样揭开种种阴谋诡计，摆出他的基本观点，那就是人类本质上具有攻击性。

Elizabeth Lunbeck: And he ends the book by basically saying we might have controlled nature, but we would have no difficulty in exterminating one another to the last man. So it's a very bleak view of how our human relations are just riven through with this aggressiveness.

伊丽莎白·兰百克：在书的结尾，他说人类已经基本上掌控了自然，我们可以毫不费力地自相残杀，直到杀死最后一个人。人的攻击性将粉碎人际关系，这种想法令人毛骨悚然。

Science and Technology: Wrong Antidote

科技发展原来只是无效药

Zachary Davis: Freud had good reason to think that people were fundamentally aggressive. He had seen a lot of suffering in his lifetime—in his personal life, his patients, and his country. He theorized that human suffering came from three sources.

扎卡里·戴维斯：弗洛伊德觉得人类本质上具有攻击性，他这么是有原因的。他一生中经历了多重苦难，既有是他个人的不幸生活、患者的病痛，更有国家的浩劫。弗洛伊德认为人类痛苦源于三个方面。

Elizabeth Lunbeck: One is from our own bodies, our health or lack thereof makes perfect sense. Another is from nature, and what nature does and we're certainly aware of this now with the force of nature being talked about ever more urgently. And the third is our relations with other people. So hell is other people, that kind of line. And Freud sees that as the most intractable, in a way. So Civilization and its Discontents is really about hellish other people, but it's also about how we have brought those hellish other people into ourselves.

伊丽莎白·兰百克：一是源于我们的肉体，肉体缺乏健康，我们自然会感到痛苦。二是源于自然，我们清楚自然的力量，自然的力量也越来越多地被提及。三是人际关系。正如有句话所说：“他人即地狱。”弗洛伊德觉得，从某种程度上看，人际关系带来的痛苦最难解决。《文明及其缺憾》不仅仅探讨了人类如何互相倾轧，还探讨了我们内心如何形成攻击他人的倾向。

Zachary Davis: What does Freud think about science and technology than with this pessimism about civilization?

扎卡里·戴维斯：既然弗洛伊德对文明如此悲观，那他又如何看待科技发展呢？

Elizabeth Lunbeck: Freud's interesting on that. He thinks that basic science and technology will not be able to solve or resolve the fundamental problems that are inherent in our nature as aggressive beings. Science and technology have given us progress, but progress has opened up new problems for us. And he uses the example of the railroad. So the railroad is great, right? You can go visit someone far away. It's very easy. You just get on the train. But he says if there hadn't been a railroad, my children would not have moved far away and I wouldn't need to get on the train.

伊丽莎白·兰百克：佛洛依德对此很感兴趣。他认为基础科学与技术无法改变我们天性所固有的攻击倾向。科技发展带给我们进步，但也带给我们新问题。他举了铁路的例子。铁路很棒，对吧？方便你拜访远在他乡的人，坐一趟火车就到了。但如果没有火车，孩子们就不会搬到很远的地方，我也不需要坐火车才能看到他们。

Zachary Davis: Consider the exciting new technologies of our day—computers, mobile phones, the internet. These certainly help us in many ways, yet because they can’t change our core human natures, they inevitably open up all sorts of new challenges and dilemmas.

扎卡里·戴维斯：再想想计算机、手机、互联网这些令人称奇的新技术。它们当然在很多方面都提供了便利，但它们改变不了最根本的人性，也不可避免地会带来新的挑战和困境。

Elizabeth Lunbeck: So progress doesn't really help us evade this fundamental problem of who we are, at base, which is these aggressive, hostile beings.

伊丽莎白·兰百克：所以科技进步并不能让我们回避这个根本的事实，那就是人类互相攻击、彼此敌对，本性就是这样。

Elizabeth Lunbeck: I mean it presents a huge blow to our conception of ourselves as civilized beings.

伊丽莎白·兰百克：我们一贯认为人类是文明的生物，而弗洛伊德的观点不失为一棒重击。

Mental Turmoil Caused by Id, Ego, and Superego

我们被本我、自我和超我撕扯着

Zachary Davis: In Freud’s view, humans aren’t just hostile towards one another, but also towards ourselves.

扎卡里·戴维斯：在弗洛伊德看来，人类不仅彼此间有敌意，而且对自己也心怀敌意。

Elizabeth Lunbeck: We oppress ourselves, we oppress ourselves on a grand level by setting up civilization, which limits our gratification. But we also oppress our​selves on an individual level by setting up this agency he calls a super ego that watches us and monitors us.

伊丽莎白·兰百克：我们压抑自己，建立了文明来极度地压抑自己，从而无法自我满足。在个人层面，我们也建立了一套系统来压抑自己。这套系统叫“超我”，我们用它来自我审视、自我监督。

Zachary Davis: Freud believed that there were three parts of the mind: the id, the ego, and the superego. The id represents our animal instincts, and it wants instant gratification. The superego polices the id and strives for perfection. The ego is the rational part that wants to satisfy both the controlling superego and the wild id.

扎卡里·戴维斯：弗洛伊德认为，人的精神包含三个部分：本我、自我和超我。“本我”代表着我们的动物本能，想要获得即时满足；“超我”监督“本我”并力求完美。“自我”是人的理性部分，协调恪守规矩的“超我”和纵情享乐的“本我”。

Elizabeth Lunbeck: And in a wonderful turn of phrase, he compares this superego to a garrison in a conquered city. It's set up within us and makes sure that we behave.

伊丽莎白·兰百克：他打了个生动的比方，把超我比作一个攻下城池、驻守城市的守卫，它驻扎在我们内心，确保我们按规矩做事。

Zachary Davis: The superego is the part that has internalized civilization’s rules.

扎卡里·戴维斯：超我将文明规则内化在我们心里。

Zachary Davis: And, Freud argues, the better you behave, the stronger the superego becomes, and the harder it becomes to violate that moral code.

扎卡里·戴维斯：弗洛伊德认为，你做事越守规矩，超我就越强，就越不容易违背道德准则。

Elizabeth Lunbeck: As his argument unfolds, it's clear that those who are good, who believe in amiable relations among persons, their superegos are just going to get stronger. While those who have no conscience, no empathy, as we would say now, who don't play by the rules, get away with it, because they​ aren't constrained by the same internal agency that constrains, quote, the good people.

伊丽莎白·兰百克：他接着阐述道，显然那些品行高尚、相信人与人之间友好关系的人，他们的超我会越来越强大。而那些没有良知、没有同情心的人，也就是我们所说的不守规矩的人，他们的超我会越来越弱，因为他们不像品行高尚的人那样，内在系统能很好的压制本我。

Elizabeth Lunbeck: So it's really tragic if you think about it.

伊丽莎白·兰百克：仔细想想，那样还挺惨的。

How Freud Shaped Minds of Our Times

在当下，佛洛依德还能给我们哪些启发

Elizabeth Lunbeck: Freud lives on in ways that are impossible to eradicate. So one of the ways that he lives on is our idea that early childhood matters. It's fundamental. That comes from Freud, the children are sexual, that they have needs for gratification early on that comes from Freud. Our cultu​re has recognized that there is no way to eradicate that.

伊丽莎白·兰百克：弗洛伊德带给我们无法磨灭的精神财富，一直传承至今。其中之一就是让我们知道童年生活很重要，对人有根本性的影响。弗洛伊德认为儿童也有性欲，幼年时期就有自我满足的需求，而且这种欲望和需求被认为无法根除。

Elizabeth Lunbeck: The idea that we don't really know what we're doing all the time. The idea that we have an unconscious. Even if you don't believe in the unconscious, the idea that we make, for example, Freudian slips, that would be hard, I think, to eradicate because it's become so much part of who we are. That's a Freudian inheritance. That's a Freudian achievement.

伊丽莎白·兰百克：弗洛伊德还认为我们并非时时刻刻都能意识到自己在做什么，会有无意识的情况。即使你不相信无意识，你也绕不开弗洛伊德的理论，因为它在分析“人类是什么”这一问题上有着重要的分量。这是弗洛伊德带给我们的精神财富，是他的成就。

Zachary Davis: Freud introduced the idea that people don’t know what they’re doing or saying all the time. You mean to say one word, but you say another. Or you intend to do one thing, but you do something else instead. But Freud also popularized the idea of talking as a way to find out what your unconscious self is trying to say.

扎卡里·戴维斯：弗洛伊德提出了一个观点，人们并非时时刻刻都知道自己在做什么或说什么。你想说的是这句话，结果说出口的却是那句。你本来打算做这件事，结果却做了那件。弗洛伊德还推广了一个方法，那就是通过倾诉来发现自己无意识中想要说什么。

Elizabeth Lunbeck: Freud gave rise to a sort of the culture of therapy as a replacement for the confessional. That has been one of the main themes in writing about 20th century culture was that we used to go to priests and shamans and so on for sort of wisdom. But with the 20th century kind of the clinic, replace the church. And now we seek out healers, psychological healers to unburden ourselves of our inner conflicts. That is so much part of American culture and even wider European Western culture that it would be hard to imagine eradicating it.

伊丽莎白·兰百克：弗洛伊德发明了一种愈疗方法，来代替教堂里的忏悔室。在有关20世纪文化的著作中，这个话题还挺主要的。人们曾经会去找神父或萨满来寻求智慧的点拨，到了20世纪，诊疗室取代了教堂。如今我们会找心理咨询师来帮我们缓解由于内心冲突而造成的精神压力。这是美国乃至欧洲文化中重要的一部分，很难想象没有它会是什么样。

Zachary Davis: This creation or sharing of a life story doesn’t just happen in the doctor’s office. It’s everywhere, and often very public.

扎卡里·戴维斯：人们不仅仅会在诊疗室吐露或分享人生故事，在任何场合都有可能，而且常常会公开谈论。

Elizabeth Lunbeck: The whole kind of reality TV. Oprah, the pathography, kind of telling one's life as a series of obstacles that were overcome. One was defeated. Then when I saw the light and so on, that's a staple of our culture now. And I think we can see its roots in what an early patient Ana O called talking therapy, talking cure. The talking cure is everywhere in our culture. Talk is an idea that we have to get out what's inside of us in order to live our best lives.

伊丽莎白·兰百克：美国电视节目《奥普拉秀》就是邀请嘉宾讲述自己的生活，展现自己如何解决一个个困难，如何被打趴下了，又如何看到一丝曙光，诸如此类。这是如今我们文化中的重要内容。我觉得这可以追溯到历史上治疗安娜·欧时用的谈话疗法。在我们的文化中到处都有谈话疗法的影子。我们通过交谈厘清自己内心的想法，让自己更幸福地生活。

Zachary Davis: In some ways, psychoanalysis replaced the confessional, and the psychoanalyst replaced the religious leader. But psychoanalysis had nothing to do with religion—at least not the way Freud saw it.

扎卡里·戴维斯：在某些方面，精神分析法取代了忏悔室，精神分析学家取代了宗教领袖。但是精神分析与宗教无关，至少弗洛伊德是这么想的。

Elizabeth Lunbeck: So, Freud thought of himself as a scientist, and he was 100 percent committed to the proposition that psychoanalysis was a science.

伊丽莎白·兰百克：弗洛伊德认为自己是科学家，他坚称精神分析法百分之百是一门科学。

Zachary Davis: Religion, according to Freud, was not a science at all. Civilization and its Discontents begins with a discussion of religion, which Freud described as an “oceanic feeling” of wholeness.

扎卡里·戴维斯：弗洛伊德认为宗教根本不是科学。在《文明及其缺憾》的开头，弗洛伊德便讨论了宗教，把它描述成一种整体上的“海洋感觉”。

Elizabeth Lunbeck: That's not scientific. That's illusion. Science is about truth, actuality, materiality and so on. And he saw psychoanalysis as committed to the scientific method.

伊丽莎白·兰百克：这不科学，而是幻象。科学关乎真理、现实、物质性等等。他认为精神分析法采用的是科学方法。

Interpersonal Aggression that Never Ends

相互攻击永无止境

Zachary Davis: Not everyone agreed with Freud. Some called talk therapy a pseudoscience and claimed that Freud was only interested in sex. Freud certainly talks about sex in Civilization and Its Discontents, but in this text, another base urge dominates.

扎卡里·戴维斯：并非所有人都同意弗洛伊德的观点。有人说谈话疗法是伪科学，还说弗洛伊德只对性感兴趣。《文明及其缺憾》这本书确实谈到了性，但它主要谈的是人类的另一种冲动。

Elizabeth Lunbeck: One thing that's interesting about Civilization and its Discontents is it's about the ways that we deny ourselves sexual gratification. But it's really about aggression, even more so than about sex, I think. Our aggressiveness is really what distinguishes us.

伊丽莎白·兰百克：这本书一个有意思的点在于，它探讨了我们如何抑制自己的欲望。不过书里谈的更多的是进攻性而不是性。正是进攻性让人类显得如此不同。

Zachary Davis: Well, I think you were saying earlier for the conversation began, you know, you see signs all around us in our culture, unfortunately, of aggression resurfacing again and again that, you know, Freud seems to suggest you'll never solve these problems once and for all. Civilization is always—

扎卡里·戴维斯：我记得您在节目开头说，很不幸您在文化中常常能看到人们不断地互相攻击。弗洛伊德似乎曾说人们永远无法一劳永逸地解决这一问题。文明永远处在危险的边缘。

Elizabeth Lunbeck: Teetering on the brink. And I think now with the kind of stoking of aggressiveness which goes on, is going on all over the world. And we, you know, it's certainly new technologies, social media, have increased the kind of prevalence while decreasing the stakes, because now you can sit at your computer at 3:00 a.m. by yourself and send out all kinds of hateful messages.

伊丽莎白·兰百克：没错，处在危险的边缘。而且我觉得随着攻击性被频频挑起，它似乎愈演愈烈，在全世界都蔓延开。显然新技术和社交媒体加剧了蔓延的趋势，也降低了攻击别人的成本。哪怕是凌晨三点，你也可以坐在电脑边，自己就可以发些怼天怼地的消息。

Elizabeth Lunbeck: So you don’t actually have to be in the crowd as you would have had to be in Freud's time. But you can stoke those aggressions, among others, at a very low cost to yourself. It's pretty easy to do that. And if you look at the heightened aggression of public discourse now in various regimes, even at the heart of Western civilization. It's pretty frightening.

伊丽莎白·兰百克：你不用像弗洛伊德那个时代那样，必须走到人群中才能散播仇恨。现在你可以以很低的成本来攻击别人。轻轻松松就能办得到。看看如今各国，公共言论中各种剑拔弩张，甚至在西方文明的核心地带都是这样。真让人害怕。

Elizabeth Lunbeck: People are really anxious and on the edge of what Freud is talking about, our mutual hostility. And the way that people snap out at one another and you know, there's been no end to the endless wars. We're still killing each other. And I think you can see in some things that leaders say that killing can be fun for people. I obviously don't endorse that view. Just to be clear. But, if you think about the optimism with which the troops marched off to World War One. That's not been lost.

伊丽莎白·兰百克：人们焦躁不安，处在弗洛伊德所说的互相敌对的边缘。人们彼此攻讦，永不停歇，仿佛一场无休止的战争，我们仍然在互相残杀。你可以从某些地方看到政客们说互相攻讦很有意思，首先声明一下，我并不赞同这个观点。但是曾经也有人这么乐观地认为杀人会有趣，结果一战爆发了。人类彼此之间的攻击性一直没消停。

Elizabeth Lunbeck: So it's a pretty grim view of human nature. But if you look at the 20th century, it's a pretty grim century. There's a lesson in here that I think is really valuable. You don't have to accept it lock, stock and barrel. But it's a good tonic to counter optimism, I think.

伊丽莎白·兰百克：弗洛伊德对人性很悲观。但如果回顾一下上个世纪，会看到阴云密布。我觉得这是个很有价值的教训。你不一定非要全盘接受它，但我觉得它是一剂良药，可以避免我们对人性过于乐观。

Will the Problem Linger

能否有一天，问题会解决

Zachary Davis: Civilization and Its Discontents was a book that emerged during dark times.

扎卡里·戴维斯：《文明及其缺憾》出版时，社会正处于黑暗时期。

Elizabeth Lunbeck: He finished the book in 1929 and apparently delivered it to the publishers a week after the great crash of ’29, which led to the Great Depression, which was then led to World War 2 and just the amount of suffering. So I think the book really is the story of the 20th century, which is a century of war, constant war and slaughter on a scale that had never been seen before. And it's continued to this day.​

伊丽莎白·兰百克：弗洛伊德在1929年完成了这本书，显然他是在1929年股市大崩盘之后的一周把书稿交付出版的。那一年的大崩盘导致了随后的经济大萧条，紧接着导致二战爆发，世界满目疮痍。我觉得这本书讲述的是20世纪的情况，充满了持续不断、前所未有的大规模战争与屠杀。这种情况甚至持续到了今天。

Zachary Davis: Freud’s understanding of civilization can help us understand the individual and society today. The world is facing mass migration, refugee crises, and the rise of totalitarianism. Nearly a century after it was written, Civilization and its Discontents remains valuable.

扎卡里·戴维斯：弗洛伊德对文明的理解有助于我们理解当今的个人和社会。全球正面临大规模移民，难民危机爆发，极权主义抬头。将近一个世纪过去了，《文明及其缺憾》仍然具有现实意义。

Elizabeth Lunbeck: I think if you want to understand something about the culture that has produced us, where we sit now in 2019, you want to read some Freud, along with reading a number of other major works. And this is as good a place to start as any. And I think it's pretty apposite in our times now when aggression seems pretty close to the surface, always threatening to break out. 

伊丽莎白·兰百克：如果想要多了解一下孕育我们的文化，了解当下发生的种种，我们需要读一读弗洛伊德的著作，以及其他经典作品。这本书就是一个很好的切入口。我觉得在当下读这本书非常合适，因为如今人与人之间的攻击与敌对总是一触即发。

Elizabeth Lunbeck: I think it's a really useful book to kind of think about reflect on is this the way it has to be? Are there solutions? What are those solutions? Can we escape this? How can we live happily and feel ourselves living gratified, gratifying lives without killing one another? Seems like that is one of the questions that faces humanity today, and especially as climate change leads to scarcity dislocation. So all the problems of the 20th century magnified nature roaring back to torment us. I think Freud's kind of sardonic wit and also a kind of just like resignation in a way is kind of comforting.

伊丽莎白·兰百克：我觉得这本书非常有用，可以帮我们思考很多问题，比如：必须得这样吗？有没有解决方案？如何解决呢？我们可以避免互相攻击吗？我们怎样才能幸福地生活，怎样不用互相残杀也能心满意足呢？似乎这是当今人类面临的问题之一，特别是如今气候变化导致了资源短缺与分配不均。20世纪的所有问题都展现了人类是如何被自己的天性所反噬的。我认为弗洛伊德的犀利洞见和某种程度上的悲观思想能给我们些许安慰。

Zachary Davis: Writ Large【本课程英文版名称，为喜马拉雅官方自制】is an exclusive production of Ximalaya. Writ Large is produced by Galen Beebe and me, Zachary Davis, with help from Feiran Du, Ariel Liu, Wendy Wu, and Monica Zhang. Music is by Blue Dot Sessions. Don’t miss an episode, subscribe today in the Ximalaya app. Thanks for listening!

扎卡里·戴维斯：本节目由喜马拉雅独家制作播出。感谢您的收听，我们下期再见！